Job market for pathologists

[DrJosephKim]

I've been speaking with a number of pathology residents and practicing pathologists about the "true" job market for pathologists. There are also some very interesting discussions about this topic within online physician-only social networks.

What are you hearing in your programs? Does the job market look promising or daunting? Do you think you'll have a difficult time finding a job when you finish your residency?

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[2121115]

Pathology is a world of have's and have not's. If you are a "have" things will go well. Unfortunately, most pathology residents wind up being "have-nots" but don't know it until they are done with training. I think this is mainly because being a competent general pathologist is a really hard job and pathology residency training is woefully inadequate (i.e. you will spend many months doing medical autopsies and then have a few weeks of cyto or derm or whatever and be expected to spend your career doing cyto and derm while you'll never do another medical autopsy). Only people who can succeed on their own without being taught everything can climb the learning curve in 4 or 5 years (this is true even in programs where teaching is good, you just can't be taught everything you need to know).

 

[KeratinPearls]

I've been speaking with a number of pathology residents and practicing pathologists about the "true" job market for pathologists. There are also some very interesting discussions about this topic within online physician-only social networks.

What are you hearing in your programs? Does the job market look promising or daunting? Do you think you'll have a difficult time finding a job when you finish your residency?

What other online physician only social networks are there? What have you been hearing on your end outside SDN? If you could share that would be great.

 

[KCShaw]

There are also a lot of fairly recent threads on this within this pathology forum.

On here there seems to be a lot of fear of being able to find a job, and much more fear of being able to find a good job. But many programs are telling or implying to residents that the market is not bad at all. This seems to have a lot to do with perspective -- jobs are out there, but they may be relatively low paying scut jobs in undesirable locations compared to historical jobs or simply the job everyone thought they would get when they started medical school or started residency.

 

[yaah]

There is a disconnect between perception (jobs or good jobs are scarce) and reality (everyone seems to get a job and people's only experience with unemployment is a friend of a friend of a colleague). CAP and ASCP have tried to study this and either the unemployed/unemployable are not responding to the surveys or are not in the survey population or are overestimated by anecdotes.

Another opinion that keeps popping up is "underemployment" where new graduates are getting jobs that aren't that great or have undesirable characteristics (in office labs, mega labs, bad location). But again, surveys show that the underemployed are seemingly not that great in numbers compared with perception.

There may be problems with the pathology job market but people have a hard time "proving" it. I am unsure why this is.

The most common experience I hear of in regards to the pathology job market is from people who say that their experience with the job market was better than they thought it would be based on what they had heard. "I heard the job market was bad but I got several good offers" and that kind of thing. Again, a disconnect between perception and experience. Which one is more accurate depends on (surprise) who you talk to.

 

[SaltySqueegee]

There is a disconnect between perception (jobs or good jobs are scarce) and reality (everyone seems to get a job and people's only experience with unemployment is a friend of a friend of a colleague). CAP and ASCP have tried to study this and either the unemployed/unemployable are not responding to the surveys or are not in the survey population or are overestimated by anecdotes.

Another opinion that keeps popping up is "underemployment" where new graduates are getting jobs that aren't that great or have undesirable characteristics (in office labs, mega labs, bad location). But again, surveys show that the underemployed are seemingly not that great in numbers compared with perception.

There may be problems with the pathology job market but people have a hard time "proving" it. I am unsure why this is.

The most common experience I hear of in regards to the pathology job market is from people who say that their experience with the job market was better than they thought it would be based on what they had heard. "I heard the job market was bad but I got several good offers" and that kind of thing. Again, a disconnect between perception and experience. Which one is more accurate depends on (surprise) who you talk to.

A number of the hospital-based path groups in my area are looking for partner track fellows. The down-side, which is probably why the positions are open, is it is in a somewhat rural dispersed metropolitan midwest area... subrural if you will. The upside, for me at least, I like the local and it's great for starting a family. I kind of like watching corn grow. Eh.

So, I'm getting the perception that the big metro areas and the coastal cities are saturated with pathologists?

 

[malchik]

So, I'm getting the perception that the big metro areas and the coastal cities are saturated with pathologists?

I think this phenomenon explains the have-have not dichotomy in pathology. Jobs are available in the midwest. Jobs are more scarce on the coasts. That's the long and short of it.

 

[KCShaw]

Nice key words which can even be used together: perception, perspective, underemployment

 

[cjw0918]

Agree with many of the above posters. It is very difficult if you are tied to one partciular city. Then it's basically all about being in the right place at the right time.

 

[BU Pathology]

It is a myth that more pathologists need to relocate to find employment compared to radiologists.

Here are the facts.

The AAMC does an extensive analysis of the physician workforce, the last one was completed in 2006: https://services.aamc.org/publicati...ion=Product.displayForm&prd_id=160&prv_id=190

As part of this analysis they evaluated over 737,000 physicians to determine the state where they trained compared to the state where they were practicing. As you can see in the attached graph, more pathologists practice in the state where they train compared to radiologists. The difference is probably not statistically, or meaningfully, significant.

But it is a myth that most pathologists need to relocate to find a job in pathology.

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Professor and Chair of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center

 

[earthworm]

It is a myth that more pathologists need to relocate to find employment compared to radiologists.

Here are the facts.

The AAMC does an extensive analysis of the physician workforce, the last one was completed in 2006: https://services.aamc.org/publicati...ion=Product.displayForm&prd_id=160&prv_id=190

As part of this analysis they evaluated over 737,000 physicians to determine the state where they trained compared to the state where they were practicing. As you can see in the attached graph, more pathologists practice in the state where they train compared to radiologists. The difference is probably not statistically, or meaningfully, significant.

But it is a myth that most pathologists need to relocate to find a job in pathology.

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Professor and Chair of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center

Well, I would argue that living in the state where you trained can still mean relocation for a lot of people. This is particularly true for states with a lot of training programs, which tend to be larger, such as New York, Texas and California. You might want to stay in the same state so you don't have to get another license or so that you can be within a few hours driving distance of where your family is, so I'd be willing to bet that there are a significant number of people who relocate to a city within the same state. Whether it's in the same state or not, having your spouse quit his/her job in a poor economy or playing single parent during the week while your spouse visits on weekends sucks big time. My personal opinion is that if you live in a large city and you have to move to get a job, it's a bad job market.

 

[cjw0918]

I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to gets a job in rads. I only know that we have four fellows (2 surg path and 2 cyto, one has done both) looking for a job in one large metro city. One of the cyto fellows, not one with two fellowships, got hired to stay on as an attending at our University hospital. One surg path fellow found a GI f/s that was mysteriously vacant for 2011 in the city. The last cyto fellow and surg path fellow are still looking. Right now there are just not a lot of openings in this city. Going to continue to hope some things open up soon. One fellow cannot move for sure. The other fellow COULD move but doesn't want to.

 

[KluverB]

...My personal opinion is that if you live in a large city and you have to move to get a job, it's a bad job market.

Perhaps if you're a fry cook or a greeter; not if you're a newly minted physician, or more specifically one of n newly minted physicians each year, who are all competing for the same (non-)openings in town, not to mention everyone else who probably wants to come back from the boondocks. Let's face it, health care may be a growth industry, but it's not such a growth industry that requires the addition of many new positions each year, especially in a non-primary care specialty. Which may all go back to the argument that there are too many graduating pathologists, etc., but that is not the sole determinant of the job market. As folks both here and elsewhere will keep saying, there are jobs out there. They may not be in "desirable" locations, but they are out there. Perhaps the problem lies in that people enter medicine for all the wrong reasons? Heck, I'm not one to start throwing stones....

 

[2121115]

Perhaps if you're a fry cook or a greeter; not if you're a newly minted physician, or more specifically one of n newly minted physicians each year, who are all competing for the same (non-)openings in town, not to mention everyone else who probably wants to come back from the boondocks.

True. As a new grad you competing with pathologists with several years of experience who want to get out of the jobs they are in currently and move to "the city". The boondocks are actually starter jobs for many people.

 

[lurksalot]

True. As a new grad you competing with pathologists with several years of experience who want to get out of the jobs they are in currently and move to "the city". The boondocks are actually starter jobs for many people.

In my area, it's probably the opposite. Many private practice pathologists start in an academic setting, then move on to more lucrative private practice jobs in the 'burbs once they get experience (and thus are more desirable for the latter).

Many academic openings are due to these people jumping ship, and good private practice groups won't always hire the newly minted.

 

[earthworm]

Perhaps if you're a fry cook or a greeter

I disagree. I find that so many of my friends in medicine have no problem getting jobs in my city- radiologists, emergency medicine, urologists, pediatricians, nephrologists, pmnr, you name it. Yet, the pathology market is abysmal where I live, which is a large metropolitan area. I don't think it's just blue collar workers who should be able to find work in the city where they live. I understand different cities have different industries and different markets in any given field, but it seems as though almost every large metropolitan area in the country is difficult for pathology. Maybe those of you who aren't complaining don't have a spouse who can't get a job in a smaller town, and that's fine. A lot if our perspective has to do with our own personal struggles with getting a job or lack thereof.

 

[gschl1234]

I find that so many of my friends in medicine have no problem getting jobs in my city- radiologists, emergency medicine, urologists, pediatricians, nephrologists, pmnr, you name it.

I agree, though, many of these "easily available" jobs are just place holders (private practice--non-partnership track, non-compete clause in place) until something better comes along. For example, I have a friend in IM private practice who works for a salary, cannot become partner and sees 30-40 patients a day while the partners each see ~6 per day. I think the availability of jobs in clinical medicine has to do with the fact that those specialties are more labor-intensive and they need the manpower (available 8-5 to see patients), whereas pathology can be managed with fewer people if those people are willing to work longer hours (including hours outside of 8-5).

 

[KluverB]

It's easier to send out slides, blocks, tissues, samples, etc. than it is to send out patients. I'm surprised there aren't more "reference" labs. Radiology gets much more volume as every patient now gets the million-$$$ radiology workup for the most trivial of issues, which usually warrants additional radiographic studies to followup all those UBOs. Tissue diagnoses are the last resort as they usually involve some sort of invasive procedure.

@earthworm- EM docs and pediatricians are primary care, so always needed, as the supply/turnover in these specialties actually outstrips demand. Few people go into pmnr or nephro, neither of which is all that competitive, hence there probably always are openings. Finally, at least 50% of the population has a prostate all of whom will eventually develop cancer, hence QED, urologists do have a golden ticket.

Sorry, I'm not offering a solution, I guess.

 

[2121115]

In my area, it's probably the opposite. Many private practice pathologists start in an academic setting, then move on to more lucrative private practice jobs in the 'burbs once they get experience (and thus are more desirable for the latter).

Unless you are signing out generals in academics (which is not the case in most high profile academic centers) then staying in academics early on is a liability in my experience. Most recent fellowship grads are way more competent to sign out a sessile serrated adenoma than some who has been doing only GU path for 3 years or only hemepath for 3 years or what have you.

 

[raider]

Both the "quantity" (which effects the average candidates) and the "quality"(which effects the stellar candidates) of jobs is below par in pathology, compared to other specialities.

If your desires include:
(1) Getting rich.
(2) Living in a specific geographic locale.
(3) Doing less work
(4) Having less stress.

Pathology is not the way to go. Think dermatology (Also ask yourself why does derm have such a great market. Comparing the worst job market-pathology to the best job market-dermatology is a good way to analyze the situation). I hope the GME slashes funding for half the pathology residency programs and licensing boards/insurance companies make MOC mandatory(so the old leeches, who have found a great way of getting paid for doing zilch, can be got rid off).

If you are content with working anywhere, doing a lot of work (the number of cases one needs to sign out seems to have increased exponentially from the past while the salaries have decreased) ,not getting paid enough and handling a considerable degree of stress (yes you will feel it when you have to make a very precise diagnosis on a suboptimal specimen ; a diagnosis that will be the one on which all future patient therapy will be based e.g. some pathologist from NYU settled for half a million dollars because he/she mistakenly called a metastatic lung carcinoma as a metastatic breast carcinoma etc.) pursue pathology.

One can always be wrong on predictions, but my prediction is that the downward spiral will continue unless concrete steps are taken to "face" and "address" the situation by our representative organizations. I doubt this will happen.

Do pathology, if you really like it. However,understand you will face the worst market dynamics in all of medicine. If factors such as money, prestige,living in a certain urban city etc. are more important , choose something else.

 

[lurksalot]

Unless you are signing out generals in academics (which is not the case in most high profile academic centers) then staying in academics early on is a liability in my experience. Most recent fellowship grads are way more competent to sign out a sessile serrated adenoma than some who has been doing only GU path for 3 years or only hemepath for 3 years or what have you.

Meh, seems like many residents are doing at least one if not two fellowships which are generally sub-specialty, save general surg path. In most sub-specialty signout models, attendings still need to cover general frozen sections and such. A couple years of sub-specialty practice isn't going to make you less of a generalist- more than that, then I agree.

Keep in mind that many larger PP groups are also switching to hybrid sub-specialty models.

 

[2121115]

Meh, seems like many residents are doing at least one if not two fellowships which are generally sub-specialty, save general surg path. In most sub-specialty signout models, attendings still need to cover general frozen sections and such. A couple years of sub-specialty practice isn't going to make you less of a generalist- more than that, then I agree.

Keep in mind that many larger PP groups are also switching to hybrid sub-specialty models.

It may not make you less of a generalist, but I don't think it would make you that much better at general pathology. They would basically be the equivalent of a new grad, so the experience would be a wash.

 

[lurksalot]

It may not make you less of a generalist, but I don't think it would make you that much better at general pathology. They would basically be the equivalent of a new grad, so the experience would be a wash.

Not a wash at all- a few years of signing your name to cases and frozen sections do have some value. I'm several years out myself, and the newly minted pathologists we've hired, regardless of their training, have always needed some hand-holding. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

[BrainPathology]

If you love your city more than pathology and will end up resenting pathology because you can't practice it where you love to live then yeah pathology sucks. If you love pathology you can get a good job with plenty of vacation and money to visit places you like, enough money to support a spouse while they look for work (which, according to these threads is going to be WAY easier for them than you finding a job in pathology), AND the ability to practice a specialty you (should) love then Pathology is still great.

Just to add my non scientific, useless anecdote to the job market discussion: 2 interviews, 2 offers. One interview I sought out, the other was offered to me from connections I made during my residency. I took the latter, it's a partnership track, the pay is great, the vacation is measured in months not weeks, the practice is very busy and growing (large private group). And it's in a urban area with plenty of things to do and an easy airport. I couldn't be happier with my training and upcoming job. This from a sub specialty that I constantly hear is useless, but exactly what they were looking for.

 

[cjw0918]

If you need to stay in a particular city because your spouse is also a pathologist and likes his/her job, this is a problem.

 

[BrainPathology]

If you need to stay in a particular city because your spouse is also a pathologist and likes his/her job, this is a problem.

Oh well sure.. .if we need a job market where there are 2 openings in every city at any one time so every potential couple who are in the same specialty can be accommodated then yeah life REALLY REALLY sucks in pathology.

Seriously? is this the definition of a bad job market? I would definitely agree that situation is a bad one. But not something the job market needs to 100% prevent before we call it "good".

 

[cjw0918]

Over the past several years that I have been coming to the SDN boards, people have become so hateful and nasty in their posts. This is supposed to be a supportive forum where we discuss current issues in pathology, compare our experiences, and yes, complain when we are frustrated.

Am I am frustrated that I cannot find a job in the same city as my spouse who is a working pathologist? Absolutely.

Am I disappointed that after two fellowships and continuing to work despite a major illness that I cannot find a job? Absolutely.

Has it crossed my mind that maybe I just suck at this and no one wants to tell me? Absolutely.

Has my experience looking for a job been miserable? Absolutely. Also, three other fellows have encountered major difficulty looking for a job in this city.

So, my conclusion is that the job market sucks in this city at this time. I don't see how a metroplex with a booming population of 6.3 million can have NOTHING and this not equal a bad job market. This is my experience only. Now say whatever nasty things you will. I really hope other people have better luck.

 

[BrainPathology]

Over the past several years that I have been coming to the SDN boards, people have become so hateful and nasty in their posts. This is supposed to be a supportive forum where we discuss current issues in pathology, compare our experiences, and yes, complain when we are frustrated.

Am I am frustrated that I cannot find a job in the same city as my spouse who is a working pathologist? Absolutely.

Am I disappointed that after two fellowships and continuing to work despite a major illness that I cannot find a job? Absolutely.

Has it crossed my mind that maybe I just suck at this and no one wants to tell me? Absolutely.

Has my experience looking for a job been miserable? Absolutely. Also, three other fellows have encountered major difficulty looking for a job in this city.

So, my conclusion is that the job market sucks in this city at this time. I don't see how a metroplex with a booming population of 6.3 million can have NOTHING and this not equal a bad job market. This is my experience only. Now say whatever nasty things you will. I really hope other people have better luck.

Hey sorry if that came off as hateful. As I said where that's your situation it sucks. I imagine it's even worse with those who come here and say they had a great experience. Had I a partner who was rooted in a large urban area where I HAD to find a job I'm sure I'd not have had the same luck as quickly. In any professional career if I married in the exact same specialty I think it would be a little harder to land tandem spots in the same place.

 

[Enkidu]

Is the job market for academic pathology also bad? I'm not a high-roller kind of guy and a salary in the low-mid 100s sounds good to me (also have no medical school debt, which helps). I'm thinking about a clinician-researcher track, but what about clinician-educator tracks as well? Are those of you who are having trouble finding a job also considering academic positions?

Is it that pathologists who did not go to big academic residencies have a harder time getting into academia?

Truth is, I am kind of attached to a specific city, which happens to have a very good pathology program, and I want to hang on to the belief that if I have a good academic resume (which I do), I'll be able to get a fairly low-paying academic position at the university... is this overly naive?

 

[malchik]

I want to hang on to the belief that if I have a good academic resume (which I do), I'll be able to good a fairly low-paying academic position at the university... is this overly naive?

Depends on the specific job you want. If you want a research only job with maybe some autopsies, and you have funding, you will have no problems. But if you want to do neuro or renal with research, and the department already has a full team of neuro or renal people, you will have problems.

 

[Patho2009]

I think we have to define "bad market" by being not able to find a job at all (anywhere). I won't consider it in being not able to find a job within the city you like.

 

[earthworm]

Well, finding a job in a particular city may not define a bad job market, but jobs seem to be difficult to find in any large city (where most people's professional non-medical spouses can find a job). Even if there are jobs available, they might want a different subspecialty or somone with more experience, which narrows the available jobs for any given newly trained candidate significantly. Competition is stiff and people tend to not consider you too seriously when they see that you're not from the area, especially if it takes a while to get the state license. I'm finding stuff out there, but they might be in places where my spouse's career opportunities would be severely limited, i.e., very few large corporations, or they might be over an hour commute even if we live on the outskirts of a city, or they might be part-time, or highly unstable. It's not finding a job that's difficult, but if you're only options are jobs that are going to leave your spouse jobless, leave your kids without a mom or dad all week, or very possibly leave you without a job next year, I wouldn't call that a great job market.

 

[sirenomelia]

As one struggling in the process currently, anyone who says the job market isnt bad is clueless. Jobs, overall quantitatively, are very limited. Qualitatively it is an even worse situation

Worthwhile academic and reference jobs require a pedigree or connections few have. Most of those are only had with relocation unless you're just ass-lucky and in the right place at the right time with good people who have your bests interests.

Private practice positions are more often than not garbage dumps because established doctors are self-centered, self serving pricks who are looking to either 1) rook a new grad- use them for what they can to do the slave labor they themselves dont want to do and spit them out with no opportunity to partner- like someone had once given them; or 2) have whored out their practice to these megagroup 'Inc's' that admin multiple practices from afar in some mysterious reference site piling profits in their pocket pulling 9-4:30 while the worker-bee minions in the trenches flounder in 12 hour/day chop shops doing the dirty work playing hand holding with clinicians, pounding volume for the good of the 'company' and incurring 100% the medical/legal risk.

And this, personally for me, with a decent AP/CP (East coast) certificate and 2 fellowships- I didnt expect at all to struggle wading through trash to find decent employment with people you can trust who will do you fairly. The pathologists ahead of us new guys are greed driven bastards that regard new pathologists as "employees" and not colleagues.

 

[raider]

I agree 100% with sirenomelia.

What he/she said is a true reflection of the "general pathology job market".

I would also add that our organizations don't give a damn about the "job market woes" as they make money through some BS accreditation stuff.

Anyone who thinks that this job market is even "tolerable" has an IQ below 20 (I dont have the time or patience to teach idiots, but suffice to say even if you have a job which in your *****ic bliss seems good to you, a "generally bad job market" is going to hurt you in the grand schema of things and you must be concerned about it e.g. even very strong stocks are pulled down when DJIA or NASDAQ plummets).

Everyone should criticize the job market at each and every opportunity you find---with attending, at meetings etc. With enough noise, our worthless organizations will have no place to hide and will have to confront this "real issue" .

 

[Enkidu]

Depends on the specific job you want. If you want a research only job with maybe some autopsies, and you have funding, you will have no problems. But if you want to do neuro or renal with research, and the department already has a full team of neuro or renal people, you will have problems.

Well, Neuro is my interest in research, and I plan on doing AP/NP, but I don't mind doing general surgical pathology or some other subspecialty in anatomic pathology if it helps me get a job (hopefully with research funding as well). Should I pursue some other AP fellowship to help get a good academic position?

 

[malchik]

Well, Neuro is my interest in research, and I plan on doing AP/NP, but I don't mind doing general surgical pathology or some other subspecialty in anatomic pathology if it helps me get a job (hopefully with research funding as well). Should I pursue some other AP fellowship to help get a good academic position?

No, you should just do AP/NP if just getting a good academic job is what you want. I was responding to your hope of getting a job at a specific university. That will of course be dependent on what their needs are.

 

[BrainPathology]

I agree 100% with sirenomelia.

What he/she said is a true reflection of the "general pathology job market".

I would also add that our organizations don't give a damn about the "job market woes" as they make money through some BS accreditation stuff.

Anyone who thinks that this job market is even "tolerable" has an IQ below 20 (I dont have the time or patience to teach idiots, but suffice to say even if you have a job which in your *****ic bliss seems good to you, a "generally bad job market" is going to hurt you in the grand schema of things and you must be concerned about it e.g. even very strong stocks are pulled down when DJIA or NASDAQ plummets).

Everyone should criticize the job market at each and every opportunity you find---with attending, at meetings etc. With enough noise, our worthless organizations will have no place to hide and will have to confront this "real issue" .

Oh you're still here.. yaaay n stuff n junk.

And you're not posting in all cap red letters! That completely changes everything now I agree with your apocalyptic prophecies and I'm going to start proclaiming the end is near on every street corner. Hopefully with enough feeling that I spray as much spittle on passers by as you must surely do whenever you speak or post.

Next CAP meeting I'll also try to punch everyone in the face that I meet. I know that wouldn't really make you completely happy.. but I don't have the heart to bring a gun to the meeting.

And yes, I know... I'm happy because I'm ******ed...my job really actually sucks because not every single other pathologist has a job as good or better, the world isn't perfect and therefore it's ending, our leaders are secretly laughing maniacally as they let the profession rot, and you're the only one who can see it all. I know, I know, trust me....

 

[pathstudent]

Why do people blame CAP? What exactly are they supposed to do? They advocate for maintaining medicare reimbursement levels at the current rate. They do represent pathologists and look out for the profession. It is not like they can go in to Congress and demand pathologists get a 100% raise.

What exactly are they supposed to do about the job market. They can't make POD labs go away. How could they seriously propose that a group of urlogists can't hire a pathologist and pay him 20% of what he earns? That goes on all the time. When a pathologist joins a group of pathologists. They earn a salary that is much less what they get reimbursed for. Same thing if you work in academics. Your salary is much less than what the university gets reimbursed. That is the way businesses work. Do you think a guy making pizzas gets paid for what each of his pizzas generates? Do you think a lawyer gets 100% of what they bill when they work for a firm? There are some serious delusions going on here. It is like no one here has ever had a real job or has any idea about how the real world works.

And why should a private practice group make you partner right away and give you equal pay? Why must they do it ever? If I started a business, built up the relationships, built the infrastructure, I would tell you to go F yourself if you thought 2 years after you show up on the scene that you get an equal share of what I built up with my bare hands. I'd tell you get back to signing out the lumpectomies while I sign out a couple trays of gi biopsies and then go to the range to loosen up for my noon tee time and if you don't like that then move the F on.

What is CAP supposed to do?

Now where you might make some change is with the ABP and ACGME. The boards for ENT and Optho strictly regulate the number of professionals they produce each year to maintain their job security. Maybe pathology doesn't focus on that. If there were 1/3 as many pathologists then Urologists, and GIs couldn't hire pathologists and pay them a quarter on the dollar. But the horse is already out of the barn. Residency spots are not going to get seriously slashed and if anything they will continue to slowly grow.

 

[2121115]

It is true that CAP cannot restrict the number of residency spots; they don't have that power. However, support from the CAP for doing that could have a big impact.

The oversupply of pathologists has a bigger significance than many people give it credit for, however, what is vastly understated is the lack of sufficient training given to pathology trainees to prepare them for practice. Only in pathology do you spend 4-5 years as a glorified medical student and then become an attending with no intermediate steps. This is absurd and I blame academics. One of the reasons that in office labs and what not flourish is because so many new grads only feel prepared to sign out one organ or one type of specimen. This is shameful and is an albatross around the neck of our profession.

 

[LADoc00]

I was told by the head of CompHealth, a physician oriented executive recruiting service, in California there were 24 job openings in Radiology to every 1 in Pathology. This was 3 years ago.

Simple math can tell you the US doesnt train 24x the number of Radiologists vs. Pathologists.

Take from that what you will.


I can also add in my area over the last 4-5 years, new trainees really seem to be struggling to get partnership. As the Health Care Economy has declined, payors ratching down payments, 401K losses mount, the new hires seem to be taking the brunt of the bad situation we currently find Western Civilization in (ie- massive amounts of unsustainable public debt with resultant currency devaluation).

 

[twentyone]

I was told by the head of CompHealth, a physician oriented executive recruiting service, in California there were 24 job openings in Radiology to every 1 in Pathology. This was 3 years ago.

Simple math can tell you the US doesnt train 24x the number of Radiologists vs. Pathologists.

Take from that what you will.


I can also add in my area over the last 4-5 years, new trainees really seem to be struggling to get partnership. As the Health Care Economy has declined, payors ratching down payments, 401K losses mount, the new hires seem to be taking the brunt of the bad situation we currently find Western Civilization in (ie- massive amounts of unsustainable public debt with resultant currency devaluation).

I'm not sure using a physician recruiting service's numbers is an accurate gauge of the job market. The nature of the two job markets is different, and I believe that radiology practices use outside head hunter type services and a pathology one wouldn't. I believe you and I are at total opposite ends of the practice spectrum, but I just don't see the private practices in my city doing much "recruiting." Some of them are so secretive about their very existence that they don't have any website or other means to reach them. This is strange to me, but explains why some trainees in my program aren't getting what they feel are good jobs. They feel the practices should be recruiting them, or at least open about the fact that they're hiring. That information (that one of the practices is hiring) is very hard to come by, and I consider myself pretty well connected, at least superficially, with academic and private groups through our consult business and through local meetings. I don't disagree that there are more overall radiology jobs available, but I think they're not getting the jobs they think they "deserve", either. Just my 2 cents.

I also think looking at other specialties and their job markets is not really helpful- they're just too different.

I don't have much to add about the general economics part- yeah it sucks big time. My ivy educated brother worked at the mall for two years.

 

[Entgegen]

Interestingly enough, in regard to radiology, I've been reading on the big radiology forum (auntminnie.com) about how fellows are currently struggling. There's so much doom and gloom posting on that forum that you'd think someone took all the posts here, replaced "pathology" with "radiology" and posted them there. Several posts from soon-to-be graduating fellows with no job offers there too.

 

[twentyone]

Over the past several years that I have been coming to the SDN boards, people have become so hateful and nasty in their posts. This is supposed to be a supportive forum where we discuss current issues in pathology, compare our experiences, and yes, complain when we are frustrated.

Am I am frustrated that I cannot find a job in the same city as my spouse who is a working pathologist? Absolutely.

Am I disappointed that after two fellowships and continuing to work despite a major illness that I cannot find a job? Absolutely.

Has it crossed my mind that maybe I just suck at this and no one wants to tell me? Absolutely.

Has my experience looking for a job been miserable? Absolutely. Also, three other fellows have encountered major difficulty looking for a job in this city.

So, my conclusion is that the job market sucks in this city at this time. I don't see how a metroplex with a booming population of 6.3 million can have NOTHING and this not equal a bad job market. This is my experience only. Now say whatever nasty things you will. I really hope other people have better luck.

I can't sympathize (empathize?) with you about having a double pathology family, but I can honestly say that I"m glad my spouse and I have not had to compete for the same job market. He is in a pretty specialzed industry and we had limited geographical freedom in job hunting, and we have even lived apart for up to 2 years at a time for job/training/education purposes. Were you and your spouse looking at the same time? The city I trained in had four programs plus this huge fellowship factory and it did become really saturated every couple years. Graduates took crappy jobs for a couple years, even doing free lance autopsies, when their spouse had already found work and they needed to stay. And that goes for non-pathology people too- there were lots of internal medicine and pediatrics graduates doing crappy urgent care shifts (what do I know- that could have been their dream job). Wishing you good luck in your search-

 

[KluverB]

Yawn.

Here you go...
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm

Why are medical ppl such whiny entitled biotches?

Pretty soon, I'll be taking pathstudent's side of every argument.

 

[bronx43]

Interestingly enough, in regard to radiology, I've been reading on the big radiology forum (auntminnie.com) about how fellows are currently struggling. There's so much doom and gloom posting on that forum that you'd think someone took all the posts here, replaced "pathology" with "radiology" and posted them there. Several posts from soon-to-be graduating fellows with no job offers there too.

So, IR guys can't find jobs now?

 

[Entgegen]

So, IR guys can't find jobs now?

Word on the street is that IR and mammo fellows are the ones struggling the least, although even those offers are in more undesirable, rural areas (so they say on AuntMinnie). The ones that have said that they can't find a job have either stated that they are a non-IR/mammo fellow or haven't said what sort of fellowship they're doing.

The big difference between them and this forum is that they're all still somewhat hopeful about the future...that in a few years the economy will be better and all the old guys who held off on retirement will finally bail, leaving their market open. The more established rads there also like to say how the market is cyclical and should open back up in a few years. Granted, that forum has their few doomsayers, but overall the environment there is one of slightly cautious optimism, as opposed to the malignant cesspool of negativity you constantly see here.

Then again, they're still dumping >1,100 new residents into their market every year...

 

[LNsquasher]

I made the choice of entering with my wife into pathology, which seemed like a huge mistake until recently. Love the field, it's challenging and intellectually rewarding, etc.

And yes, the job market f'ing sucking, no question. We were luck enough to both find jobs in the same major metro area for July, but it was far from easy. I worked every connection I had really hard, sent out CVs blanketing the area, and made a lot of calls. I have come very close to needing to scramble for a last minute unpaid fellowship or choosing to live apart for a year+ and working.

If you come from a big-name place for fellowship (as we are) you can find a job if you're willing to relocate, but if you're geographically restricted you need to be very motivated to make connections and hope to get lucky.

We are seriously overtraining pathologists and it shows.

 

[LADoc00]

the malignant cesspool of negativity you constantly see here.

Then again, they're still dumping >1,100 new residents into their market every year...

HEY, we like our cesspool. Its warm, cozy and familiar.

~Cesspooling since 1991.

 

[cjw0918]

Twentyone, thanks for the support. LNsquasher, you know exactly how I feel. My spouse has been a practicing pathologist for almost 4 years now. Thanks goodness we are not both in this job market together. I have been working every connection I have, and the director of AP is making calls for me. I am waiting to hear back from two places where I've interviewed, and I am hoping for an interview at a third place where I know people. It's just so damn competitive right now with all of these experienced pathologists also looking for work. I also agree with what earthworm- you have to find a job that isn't going to make you miserable and/or an absentee spouse/parent. Hell, I would have been happy to stay at my University hospital for 150K and 60 hrs/week if they had an open spot. I don't think I'm asking for too much.

 

[Entgegen]

Twentyone, thanks for the support. LNsquasher, you know exactly how I feel. My spouse has been a practicing pathologist for almost 4 years now. Thanks goodness we are not both in this job market together. I have been working every connection I have, and the director of AP is making calls for me. I am waiting to hear back from two places where I've interviewed, and I am hoping for an interview at a third place where I know people. It's just so damn competitive right now with all of these experienced pathologists also looking for work. I also agree with what earthworm- you have to find a job that isn't going to make you miserable and/or an absentee spouse/parent. Hell, I would have been happy to stay at my University hospital for 150K and 60 hrs/week if they had an open spot. I don't think I'm asking for too much.

Are there a lot of more experienced pathologists job-hunting in your area as well?