Job market for pathologists

[gbwillner]

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LOL!LOL!LMAO! THATS THE FUNNIEST JOKE I HAVE HEARD IN SOME TIME
🤣

The answer to all the whos: the poor schmuck who could not find the "well paying" private practice job and ended up, despite all attempts to the contrary, being a "low paid" university b-tch where the schmuck was forced to publish nonsense to advance to the next measly payscale. One word pathetic!!! (Exception the few in academics who are breaking the million dollar mark)
If you havent figured out the simple truth that all the alphas end up in good private practices (the million dollar club)with academic affiliations "if they wish", you have a looooooong way to go ROFL!
And administrators are just a bunch of clowns whom you make fun of in your spare time. They are more entertaining than zoo animals ( the zoo animals are most probably smarter).

... so what you are saying is that academia is only for the dumb schmucks who suck or not the "alphas", because no one would simply choose to go into academics? That the only motivating factor for your career, perhaps life, is money?

I'm pretty sure you're just being a douche. If you really feel that way then I'm sorry for you.

 

[raider]

Let me rephrase (since the former comments were directed more specifically at a certain pest habitating this forum).

There are alphas in both academics and private practice as there are zeroes in both academics and private practice.


It is not being in academics or private practice that makes you an excellent diagnostician, it is your innate intelligence, interest and ability.

Sure there are zeroes who cant cut it out in private practice and "hide" in academia , as well as the converse.

And yes, I believe making a good diagnosis is way more "cooler" than writing some piece of crap article (the majority). And yes, I also believe writing an "awesome" practice changing article is as cool as,if not slightly more cooler than making a challenging diagnosis.

And yes, I like the power of "freedom" that money gives me. But there are other things that are equally, if not more important to me like interest , being exceptional and having fun at what I do.

 

[pathstudent]

Let me rephrase (since the former comments were directed more specifically at a certain pest habitating this forum).

There are alphas in both academics and private practice as there are zeroes in both academics and private practice.


It is not being in academics or private practice that makes you an excellent diagnostician, it is your innate intelligence, interest and ability.

Sure there are zeroes who cant cut it out in private practice and "hide" in academia , as well as the converse.

And yes, I believe making a good diagnosis is way more "cooler" than writing some piece of crap article (the majority). And yes, I also believe writing an "awesome" practice changing article is as cool as,if not slightly more cooler than making a challenging diagnosis.

And yes, I like the power of "freedom" that money gives me. But there are other things that are equally, if not more important to me like interest , being exceptional and having fun at what I do.

Interesting rephrasing. It didn't read like that at all the first time.

But hey, you are an alpha pathologist, pulling 7 figures. It is nice that you are still out there looking out for all the scrubs and out to get all the "old geezer pathologists" who make money for doing nothing. You are like superpathologist.

 

[pathstudent]

... so what you are saying is that academia is only for the dumb schmucks who suck or not the "alphas", because no one would simply choose to go into academics? That the only motivating factor for your career, perhaps life, is money?

I'm pretty sure you're just being a douche. If you really feel that way then I'm sorry for you.

He did say that all alphas end up in private practice and that only those that can't get a high paying private job go into academics. Those are his exact words.

 

[SaltySqueegee]

He did say that all alphas end up in private practice and that only those that can't get a high paying private job go into academics. Those are his exact words.

Is your picture-avatar of a more recent Charlie Sheen binge? Nice!

 

[2121115]

If you are doing academics, do it for real. Write some game changing **** in good journals and speak at conferences and get famous. I have respect for that.

But that isn't what most in academics do. Most just sign out one organ system and whine about how they are an "expert".

Very few people do the former, many do the latter.

 

[twentyone]

Let me rephrase (since the former comments were directed more specifically at a certain pest habitating this forum).

There are alphas in both academics and private practice as there are zeroes in both academics and private practice.


It is not being in academics or private practice that makes you an excellent diagnostician, it is your innate intelligence, interest and ability.

Sure there are zeroes who cant cut it out in private practice and "hide" in academia , as well as the converse.

And yes, I believe making a good diagnosis is way more "cooler" than writing some piece of crap article (the majority). And yes, I also believe writing an "awesome" practice changing article is as cool as,if not slightly more cooler than making a challenging diagnosis.

And yes, I like the power of "freedom" that money gives me. But there are other things that are equally, if not more important to me like interest , being exceptional and having fun at what I do.

Wait- who are you and what have you done with raider?

 

[pathstudent]

Hilarious. Like all of a sudden raiser became reasonable and normal after years of posting in all red caps.

 

[Pedsbro]

So is there any light at the end of the tunnel? All this doom and gloom...is it really expected to be like this 5 or 10 years from now? Aren't the elder statesmen going to be retiring (whether the economy gets better or not), thus opening up spots? Are there any numbers on how many paths are close to or at retirement age? Also, there's clearly a push to steer more med students into primary care to help plug "the Shortage of 2025"...doesn't that factor in also? My school doesn't really focus on primary care, yet in the last 5 years, we've only pumped out 5 pathologists, and none in last month's match (compared to about 40 radiologists in the same time).

 

[raider]

1. Job market sucks and will continue to suck in the forseeable future.

2. Available jobs are in Podunk, Nowhere USA.

3. Your colleagues, in many cases, will be either greedy, unscrupulous and untalented geezers or some loser with a low IQ. Both of the abovementioned specimens have zero talent and absolutely do not want to work. You will end up signing out most of their cases (under the guise of intradepartmental consultation) or when there are out on sick leave/vacation or my very personal favorite "administrative stuff" (code word for expecting to get paid for doing nothing while others do "real" work).

(Also add to the rosy picture above, the uncertainty medicine holds these days and you are "in the know").

If you succeed in finding a non-exploitative practice with intelligent colleagues and reimbursement commensurate with the effort you put in....Congratulation !!!! you are the exception to the rule... enjoy while it lasts.

 

[yaah]

So is there any light at the end of the tunnel? All this doom and gloom...is it really expected to be like this 5 or 10 years from now? Aren't the elder statesmen going to be retiring (whether the economy gets better or not), thus opening up spots? Are there any numbers on how many paths are close to or at retirement age? Also, there's clearly a push to steer more med students into primary care to help plug "the Shortage of 2025"...doesn't that factor in also? My school doesn't really focus on primary care, yet in the last 5 years, we've only pumped out 5 pathologists, and none in last month's match (compared to about 40 radiologists in the same time).

Pathology has the third or fourth oldest average (or median, not sure) age among medical specialties. Psychiatry is the oldest. Part of the problem was that there was a huge increase in specimens starting about 20-25 years ago with increasing use of biopsies and endoscopies, so it was assumed (incorrectly) that in increase in specimens would necessitate a concurrent increase in pathologists to cover the load. But pathologists subspecialized and/or got more efficient. And many paths work until they are older. But they are starting to retire now. What effect that will have on the job market and when it will have an effect is a difficult question to answer.

raider's description of practices is accurate for some - but to suggest that ethical practice groups are so rare is inaccurate.

 

[lipomas]

2. Available jobs are in Podunk, Nowhere USA.

pfft. Someone's podunk is someone else's ideal location. If I had to get a job in a big city with no parking and lots of traffic and $15 sandwiches I would shoot myself.

Many available jobs are not advertised. The better jobs fill through either targeted advertisements or word of mouth. When I was graduating I heard about more jobs through informal methods than I did through ads. Except for academics. Academic departments are often required to advertise to fill positions, although I don't really know if that is true for all.

3. Your colleagues, in many cases, will be either greedy, unscrupulous and untalented geezers or some loser with a low IQ. Both of the abovementioned specimens have zero talent and absolutely do not want to work.

double pfft. The former probably account for 10% or less (although they may hold comparitively more power). The latter also probably account for 10% or less. Obviously one notices both of them more though. Because they do stand out.

 

[pathstudent]

Pathology has the third or fourth oldest average (or median, not sure) age among medical specialties. Psychiatry is the oldest. Part of the problem was that there was a huge increase in specimens starting about 20-25 years ago with increasing use of biopsies and endoscopies, so it was assumed (incorrectly) that in increase in specimens would necessitate a concurrent increase in pathologists to cover the load. But pathologists subspecialized and/or got more efficient. And many paths work until they are older. But they are starting to retire now. What effect that will have on the job market and when it will have an effect is a difficult question to answer.

raider's description of practices is accurate for some - but to suggest that ethical practice groups are so rare is inaccurate.

Yes older pathologists will eventually retire, but they will be replaced by older pathologists, and I don't mean replaced like their jobs will be filled. It is just that the age of retirement in pathology has increased (i.e. the 71 year-old pathologist will keep working for another year when the 72 year-old pathologist retires.) There won't be a mass extinction of pathologists, like all pathologists over 60 suddenly retiring and opening a thousand positions for 30 year-old pathologists. The only way I can see that happening is if government takes over healthcare or medicare reimbursements are cut in half. Older pathologists that are set won't see it as worth their while to keep working for half of what they were making before but younger people will jump on that like a duck on a june bug, or white on rice, or ants on candy or like crack fiend on crack.

 

[raider]

2008 market crisis wiped out half or more of their savings, so the greedy old bastards stayed on and destroyed the already feeble pathology job market (ofcourse they also rescinded all or most of the partnership promises to the juniors) so they could keep more for themselves. Dog eat dog world. No ethics whatsoever

 

[pathstudent]

2008 market crisis wiped out half or more of their savings, so the greedy old bastards stayed on and destroyed the already feeble pathology job market (ofcourse they also rescinded all or most of the partnership promises to the juniors) so they could keep more for themselves. Dog eat dog world. No ethics whatsoever

Wouldn't you do the same thing? Why would that make someone a greedy old bastard just because he felt he needed to work a few more years after losing half his savings? I mean come on. That is not greed. That is common sense. A lot of people had to work longer or come out of retirement after the market crash.

And aren't you an alpha type making seven figures in private practice? Why are you so bitter?

 

[gbwillner]

2008 market crisis wiped out half or more of their savings, so the greedy old bastards stayed on and destroyed the already feeble pathology job market (ofcourse they also rescinded all or most of the partnership promises to the juniors) so they could keep more for themselves. Dog eat dog world. No ethics whatsoever

I'm sure that was the thinking at the time, but as it stands now the Dow is near 12,500, and is roughly 90% of what it was at it's inflated peak beofre the crash. Point is, many portfolios have recovered a significant percent, if not all, of their losses. I myself am actually up 30%. Anyway, I'm sure by now many of those old guys are putting retirement back on the table, and will continue to do so as the markets approach their pre-crash numbers. Unless they all panicked and pulled at ath the trough. Then they are boned.

 

[malchik]

There will be no wave of retirement. Pathology has always had a high average age. Pathologists just historically tend not to retire until later. Is that related to their finances? I don't think so. I submit that it is because pathology is relatively easy work that one can comfortably do into old age, while still doing things that you would do in retirement. Look at mikesheree, he has posted that his incentive to continue working is not financial but that it is like a hobby.

 

[raider]

Wouldn't you do the same thing? Why would that make someone a greedy old bastard just because he felt he needed to work a few more years after losing half his savings? I mean come on. That is not greed. That is common sense. A lot of people had to work longer or come out of retirement after the market crash.

And aren't you an alpha type making seven figures in private practice? Why are you so bitter?[/QUOTE]

I cannot buy a Lamborghini Murciélago LP 670-4 SuperVeloce, for at least the next few years.

 

[LADoc00]

I cannot buy a Lamborghini Murciélago LP 670-4 SuperVeloce.

Im actually dumping all sportscars. Any "bling" whatsoever attracts WAY THE HECK too much unneeded attention. Im completely doing a personal makeover.

My clothing will be plain, my car will be budget.

I will blend in so Obama's henchmen do not see me.

My house will be non-descript but incredibly well gated and secure. My pathology websites vanilla. My diagnoses conservative.

I will not eat at fine french restaurants, you will instead find me at Carl's Jr. and perhaps on a special occasion a steakhouse.

I will hide away on my compound, Branch Davidian-style.

Invisibility, its the new Black.

Sie müssen sich verstecken aus der Stasi

Schild und Schwert der Partei....Sie sind verbergen sich im Schatten!

 

[pathstudent]

I cannot buy a Lamborghini Murciélago LP 670-4 SuperVeloce, for at least the next few years.

So you are one of the greedy bastards you hate so much and contstantly complaining about.

You got issues.


It would seem more appropriate for you to be a staff pathologist getting minimum pay in private practice on an annual contract and getting bounced around from group to group given your anger and hatred.

 

[2121115]

This thread makes me laugh.

 

[pathstudent]

In any case mass retirement is not imminent and even as the oldest working pathologists retire the ones slightly younger are going to keep working until they are as old as the oldest so there will never be a noticeable impact.

Also like Yaah said maybe they thought that with the advent of GI and GU biopsies that volume would go up and that we would need more pathologists, but as reimbursement was diminished, the working pathologists were able to just absorb all the extra biopsies because you can sign out 15 gi or gu biopsies in 15 minutes.

 

[lipomas]

In any case mass retirement is not imminent and even as the oldest working pathologists retire the ones slightly younger are going to keep working until they are as old as the oldest so there will never be a noticeable impact.

Also like Yaah said maybe they thought that with the advent of GI and GU biopsies that volume would go up and that we would need more pathologists, but as reimbursement was diminished, the working pathologists were able to just absorb all the extra biopsies because you can sign out 15 gi or gu biopsies in 15 minutes.

There isn't going to be "mass retirement" it is going to be gradual. I think it is already starting. I know of more people who have retired or who have set a retirement date then I did a few years ago. The problem is if you're looking for some sort of massive simultaneous retirement it isn't going to happen. The main question will be how private groups replace their retirements - are these guys going to go "part time" and still draw major salaries so that they aren't really gone? Are they going to be replaced with "employees" instead of partners? Some of these older guys do so much and are so efficient at it that you would have to hire two people to replace them, but of course others are so inefficient that the group's efficiency improves simply by having them retire.

I'm not sure why anyone would ever buy a lamborghini. Aren't they in the shop 50% of the time anyway? Just rent one!

 

[HRantz]

It is very difficult if you are tied to one partciular city.

Agree, this was my experience. Ended up accepting a position a few hours away from the city I wanted to live in. Good job though.

 

[Torsed]

Over the past several years that I have been coming to the SDN boards, people have become so hateful and nasty in their posts. This is supposed to be a supportive forum where we discuss current issues in pathology, compare our experiences, and yes, complain when we are frustrated.

We need to bring healing to this area of hate.

 

[zao275]

We need to bring healing to this area of hate.

Agree. The pessimistic and negative tone that this forum often (not always) has may give a bad name to our specialty. Many people read these negative comments and think that all pathologists must feel this way (I have been told this by friends who lurk but don't post). Granted, everyone should know that just because you read it on the internet it is not necessarily true. I am all for constructive discussions about problems in our specialty. However, it would be nice for them to be civil and productive. One of the main reasons I started posting on SDN was to give a voice to the other (more optimistic) point of view in pathology. Some others here voice the rational, realistic point of view. Hopefully, when taken all together, we will balance out any overly negative points of view! 😉

 

[Pathwrath]

There isn't going to be "mass retirement" it is going to be gradual. I think it is already starting. I know of more people who have retired or who have set a retirement date then I did a few years ago. The problem is if you're looking for some sort of massive simultaneous retirement it isn't going to happen.

Agreed. I wish the carrot of imminent pathologist retirement was never dangled again. It was used in the eighties and nineties to soften anxiety over an even worse job market than today, and the expected shortage NEVER happened.

DO NOT enter the field based even in part on the number of superannuated pathologists out there. Find something else about pathology to get excited about.

 

[lipomas]

You know, sometimes these old timers who are supposed to retire are eventually forced out by their group or hospital or whatever. But do they retire? No! They find a job somewhere else. It's sick. If I am not ready to retire by 70 and am financially able to I am considering writing a living will that requires someone to beat me senseless.

If I am not financially able to retire by 70 (presumably well before that) I also would considering having someone beat me senseless for being an idiot.

 

[Euchromatin]

You know, sometimes these old timers who are supposed to retire are eventually forced out by their group or hospital or whatever. But do they retire? No! They find a job somewhere else. It's sick. If I am not ready to retire by 70 and am financially able to I am considering writing a living will that requires someone to beat me senseless.

If I am not financially able to retire by 70 (presumably well before that) I also would considering having someone beat me senseless for being an idiot.

As long as you keep up with developments in the field (I know that can be an issue for some) and don't have any mentally incapacitating conditions, I don't see any reason why pathologists over a certain age should be forced into retirement. I agree that you should be financially prepared for retirement by that point, but I think a lot of older pathologists continue working because they enjoy it and/or it gives them something to do. The fact that the field is very intellectually stimulating (assuming you get some interesting cases occasionally and enjoy keeping up with new advances) but requires little physical work is one of the reasons that I went into pathology.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

If people wanna work till they are 90 thats great. Ive seen many pathologists working in their 80s. It just sucks that job creation is through attrition. Seems like there are less and less chairs in this musical chair game every day as the corporate labs are taking over. Just wait till the health care bubble bursts. There is gonna be MAJOR contraction in health care when that happens.

 

[Cleavername]

u guys have no idea how many times i @$%* my self reading this thread...

 

[hallucinated]

not completely discrediting everyone who says pathology market is tough, but i am still prudishly optimistic. i am going to find many new histological findings for diseases, i'm going to improve image acquisition techniques and technologies, and streamline things for this field.

i am going to be a good human being on the outside world as well. give pathologists a good name, so that outsiders recognize that we are compassionate human beings who work behind the scenes with a great sense of humility.

i don't even expect to hit 300k salary ever, and even a 150k might just work out fine for the rest of my life (ok adjust a little for future inflation)

i think that's the way to approach this - better the view of the public for pathologists, the better our lives will be in the future. i gladly tell my patients (im a 3rd year in my family medicine clerkship) that i'll be a pathologist and they mostly agree good pathologists are needed. so i'll continue doing my thing, quit complaining, and work hard with genuine enthusiasm. who's with me.

 

[cjw0918]

Just got a call from the last place I interviewed and they said because the volume has decreased significantly recently, they don't feel they can bring anyone on right now. They said they are hoping things turn around and maybe they can hire me summer 2012 if I'm still interested/available.
Thought this was interesting b/c this is the second place that has told me their volume is down. Have other people heard this as well??

 

[Thrombus]

Just got a call from the last place I interviewed and they said because the volume has decreased significantly recently, they don't feel they can bring anyone on right now. They said they are hoping things turn around and maybe they can hire me summer 2012 if I'm still interested/available.
Thought this was interesting b/c this is the second place that has told me their volume is down. Have other people heard this as well??

Most of us are up against big corporate labs with very aggressive sales representatives who practive subtle unethical medicine.

With the horrid oversupply and increasing pathologist efficiency this equals decreased volume for most groups.

You should consider another field if you don't have a job and get higher on the food chain in medicine. Pathologists are on the bottom as a result of very poor leadership.

 

[Sir James Bond]

Makes a medical student like myself consider more strongly my other interest - radiology.

 

[JPR22]

it's kinda funny that with the US deficit situation, they still manage to spend so much money to train pathologists who will never practice. If there were to be any cuts on GME, pathology should be the first to go.

 

[raider]

I hope this happens and 50% pathology residency positions are slashed.

Just check out what happened to dermatology in the 90s and why they are in such an excellent job market now.

They could have gone the way of pathology but they were smart enough to check the oversupply before it became a problem.

I do not understand why our organizations are so dumb. Maybe since they make money through bull**** QA/QC type stuff, they do not care about the job market.

What I find especially egregious and entirely self serving is the stance of program directors and their kin to keep on begging for more GME dollars. I do understand that since they have no other skill, there existence is tied with having a resident force.That is why I dislike almost all admin, just a bunch of talentless parasites sucking off others and wasting the time of people who actually do "real work" and not sit through hours of bull**** talking aka meetings.

Why this problem that seems a chronic one in pathology (you can find similar complaints in the 90s) and has been repeatedly stated in journals comparing the job market across different specialities, has not received the focus it deserves from our organizations is a complete mystery to me.

Oversupply brings so many problems that you have to be brain dead not to realize the hazards of it. Bad job market, decreased negotiating power , plumetting reimbursement, decreased respect, exploitative job contracts, abusive workload etc. etc. the list goes on and on and on. We are seeing all of this in pathology and the situation will only get worse if the status quo of oversupply is not checked. In the competitive market place of today, this oversupply is akin to suicide.

 

[earthworm]

to cjw- i heard volume was decreasing at 2 places where i interviewed. hopefully you'll find something soon. i'm still looking too.

 

[pathstudent]

Makes a medical student like myself consider more strongly my other interest - radiology.

Radiology is definitely a fascinating field that has been revolutionizing patient care for decades.

It definitely has the advantage of being reimbursed better with a lot more tests to read, but the field is constantly under attack, and radiology groups have been commodotized to an even greater extent than pathology.

If you enjoy pathology more than radiology than do pathology. If it is equal, then I think radiology likely has a brighter future in terms of reimbursement.

All else being equal, money is good.

 

[Pedsbro]

Radiology is definitely a fascinating field that has been revolutionizing patient care for decades.

It definitely has the advantage of being reimbursed better with a lot more tests to read, but the field is constantly under attack, and radiology groups have been commodotized to an even greater extent than pathology.

If you enjoy pathology more than radiology than do pathology. If it is equal, then I think radiology likely has a brighter future in terms of reimbursement.

All else being equal, money is good.

I'm curious what the above bolded comment means. Under attack from who? In what way?

 

[pathstudent]

I'm curious what the above bolded comment means. Under attack from who? In what way?

Other radiologists, other physicians and for groups that serve competing hospitals in a given market, opposing administrators.

 

[2121115]

Also, radiology is under heavy fire for reimbursement cuts right now. It is affecting their job market as well, but not sure to what degree.

 

[Entgegen]

Also, radiology is under heavy fire for reimbursement cuts right now. It is affecting their job market as well, but not sure to what degree.

As to what degree, I've recently seen a thread on the big radiology forum AuntMinnie entitled "Can't find a job!!!" which has some posts which are eerily similar to some of the testimonials of the job market found on this forum.

 

[lipomas]

You should consider another field if you don't have a job and get higher on the food chain in medicine. Pathologists are on the bottom as a result of very poor leadership.

Huh? You spend 4 years of med school, 4 years of residency, 1-2 years of fellowship, and if you can't find a job right away in pathology, and you want to be a pathologist, your suggestion is to consider another field? That's horrible advice!

Have you actually listened to complaints from physicians in other fields? Or are you like many on this forum who seemingly ignore all the negative things people say about other fields? I swear people who frequent these forums would see a post from a disgruntled radiology fellow who can't find a job and dismiss their opinion because someone else they know got a job starting at $350k out of fellowship. And they will dismiss the post from the disgruntled cardiologist who has to take an employed position because private groups are vanishing. But when they read the path forum posts they dismiss the opinion of the one who gets a private partnership track job starting at $300k.

Some perspective would be helpful in this discussion. The extremist language is counterproductive.

From my perspective, there are unhappy physicians in every field. Just talk to them. Their complaints are legitimate. If their field is not one where jobs are scarce, then their complaints are about salary or autonomy or paperwork or malpractice. It's always something. A lot of people who post here want something for nothing, or at least something for very little. They want a great job right out of training and they want it NOW. It doesn't work like that! Physicians in every field are ALWAYS changing jobs because they are unhappy. You often have to take a less desirable job before moving on to greener pastures. Do not be naive and say this is pathology's problem only. I say this not to minimize pathology's problems but to provide a little perspective which is sorely lacking here.

 

[Pathologee]

You forgot to mention that people who post on forums are essentially nuts.

Huh? You spend 4 years of med school, 4 years of residency, 1-2 years of fellowship, and if you can't find a job right away in pathology, and you want to be a pathologist, your suggestion is to consider another field? That's horrible advice!

Have you actually listened to complaints from physicians in other fields? Or are you like many on this forum who seemingly ignore all the negative things people say about other fields? I swear people who frequent these forums would see a post from a disgruntled radiology fellow who can't find a job and dismiss their opinion because someone else they know got a job starting at $350k out of fellowship. And they will dismiss the post from the disgruntled cardiologist who has to take an employed position because private groups are vanishing. But when they read the path forum posts they dismiss the opinion of the one who gets a private partnership track job starting at $300k.

Some perspective would be helpful in this discussion. The extremist language is counterproductive.

From my perspective, there are unhappy physicians in every field. Just talk to them. Their complaints are legitimate. If their field is not one where jobs are scarce, then their complaints are about salary or autonomy or paperwork or malpractice. It's always something. A lot of people who post here want something for nothing, or at least something for very little. They want a great job right out of training and they want it NOW. It doesn't work like that! Physicians in every field are ALWAYS changing jobs because they are unhappy. You often have to take a less desirable job before moving on to greener pastures. Do not be naive and say this is pathology's problem only. I say this not to minimize pathology's problems but to provide a little perspective which is sorely lacking here.

 

[JPR22]

Huh? You spend 4 years of med school, 4 years of residency, 1-2 years of fellowship, and if you can't find a job right away in pathology, and you want to be a pathologist, your suggestion is to consider another field? That's horrible advice!

There's only so long one can stand to be unemployed in this economic climate. Pathology is a great field if you can get a position, but there's bills to pay and mouths to feed.. Im not sure that waiting for a position, or doing an unpaid fellowship would be a realistic solution either

 

[pathstudent]

Good to see Raider is back to his misanthropic self-loathing self.

Administrators provide leadership for the hospital. There are bad ones and there are good ones but when you have a great CEO your hospital can thrive. To call them parasites is extremely misguided. And to complain about your senior partners for giving you more sign out so they can take on administrative duties (committees, med exec, peer review, credentialing, etc..) also shows a serious lack of knowledge about how important those activities are for patients, for the hospital, for the medical staff and for your group's relevance and job security.

And CAP does have it finger on the pulse of the job market. See page 15 of the May CAP TODAY.

I hope this happens and 50% pathology residency positions are slashed.

Just check out what happened to dermatology in the 90s and why they are in such an excellent job market now.

They could have gone the way of pathology but they were smart enough to check the oversupply before it became a problem.

I do not understand why our organizations are so dumb. Maybe since they make money through bull**** QA/QC type stuff, they do not care about the job market.

What I find especially egregious and entirely self serving is the stance of program directors and their kin to keep on begging for more GME dollars. I do understand that since they have no other skill, there existence is tied with having a resident force.That is why I dislike almost all admin, just a bunch of talentless parasites sucking off others and wasting the time of people who actually do "real work" and not sit through hours of bull**** talking aka meetings.

Why this problem that seems a chronic one in pathology (you can find similar complaints in the 90s) and has been repeatedly stated in journals comparing the job market across different specialities, has not received the focus it deserves from our organizations is a complete mystery to me.

Oversupply brings so many problems that you have to be brain dead not to realize the hazards of it. Bad job market, decreased negotiating power , plumetting reimbursement, decreased respect, exploitative job contracts, abusive workload etc. etc. the list goes on and on and on. We are seeing all of this in pathology and the situation will only get worse if the status quo of oversupply is not checked. In the competitive market place of today, this oversupply is akin to suicide.

 

[Thrombus]

Huh? You spend 4 years of med school, 4 years of residency, 1-2 years of fellowship, and if you can't find a job right away in pathology, and you want to be a pathologist, your suggestion is to consider another field? That's horrible advice!

Have you actually listened to complaints from physicians in other fields? Or are you like many on this forum who seemingly ignore all the negative things people say about other fields? I swear people who frequent these forums would see a post from a disgruntled radiology fellow who can't find a job and dismiss their opinion because someone else they know got a job starting at $350k out of fellowship. And they will dismiss the post from the disgruntled cardiologist who has to take an employed position because private groups are vanishing. But when they read the path forum posts they dismiss the opinion of the one who gets a private partnership track job starting at $300k.

Some perspective would be helpful in this discussion. The extremist language is counterproductive.

From my perspective, there are unhappy physicians in every field. Just talk to them. Their complaints are legitimate. If their field is not one where jobs are scarce, then their complaints are about salary or autonomy or paperwork or malpractice. It's always something. A lot of people who post here want something for nothing, or at least something for very little. They want a great job right out of training and they want it NOW. It doesn't work like that! Physicians in every field are ALWAYS changing jobs because they are unhappy. You often have to take a less desirable job before moving on to greener pastures. Do not be naive and say this is pathology's problem only. I say this not to minimize pathology's problems but to provide a little perspective which is sorely lacking here.

And you might be able to be a dermatologist in 4 extra years with freedom, job security, and to top it off the chance to sign out your own path competently.

Wasting away your career in low-paying associate positions and/or jobless is a worse alternative for most people.

Sorry buddy -- I know many people who have no job or poor jobs as a result of this mess. My own job is only as secure as getting enough outpatient specimens tomorrow in the face of stiff external competition. I will fight and win on a level playing field but that playing field is beginning to tilt with dishonest and unethical people especially in the face of potential declining reimbursements.

Get your head out of the sand.

 

[pathstudent]

Sorry buddy -- I know many people who have no job or poor jobs as a result of this mess. My own job is only as secure as getting enough outpatient specimens tomorrow in the face of stiff external competition. I will fight and win on a level playing field but that playing field is beginning to tilt with dishonest and unethical people especially in the face of potential declining reimbursements.

Get your head out of the sand.

There is something wrong with our generation. It seems like we expect everything to just be handed to us. I finished medical school. I finished residency. I expect my 500,000 a year job that is totally secure. That is just not realistic and not what the real world is like. How many workers in the US have total job security? It is pretty much limited to those working in government and ones with strong unions. Everyone else is a day away from getting canned or put out of business.

Capitalism made medicine very lucrative. What is unethical about corporate labs offering EMRs as part of their service. That is smart business and good customer service.

I am sorry thrombus and Raider, you are not guaranteed a 500,000 income that is heavily subsidized via taxpayers (medicare), no matter what you think you deserve.

 

[Substance]

There is something wrong with our generation. It seems like we expect everything to just be handed to us. I finished medical school. I finished residency. I expect my 500,000 a year job that is totally secure. That is just not realistic and not what the real world is like. How many workers in the US have total job security? It is pretty much limited to those working in government and ones with strong unions. Everyone else is a day away from getting canned or put out of business.

Capitalism made medicine very lucrative. What is unethical about corporate labs offering EMRs as part of their service. That is smart business and good customer service.

I am sorry thrombus and Raider, you are not guaranteed a 500,000 income that is heavily subsidized via taxpayers (medicare), no matter what you think you deserve.

I think the disenfranchisement stems from the fact that other specialties like dermatology have not been oversaturated with practitioners and can therefore demand higher reimbursement and better job prospects. This is a job that, had these pathologists known what was required to obtain it, was within their reach at one point. People with whom they've graduated medical school, and with whom they feel no hierarchy, have become ROAD docs, whereas these pathologists regret the fact they pursued a relatively more difficult road without knowing the truth.

Regarding dermatology, there appears to be an unofficial hierarchy concerning training overlap with pathology. Whereas dermatologists can obtain dermpath fellowships and diagnose biopsies and excisions without any other pathology background, the opposite cannot be said about pathologists practicing dermatology. This portrays the impression that dermatologists are more skilled physicians and can quickly learn pathology, whereas pathologists do not have the skill to learn dermatology.