Job market for pathologists

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If you have >12 years before you have to look for a job, then you probably shouldn't put too much stock in the discussions you see here--especially since (I'm trying to phrase this tactfully) not all pathologists would agree that the situation is dire or even particularly bad.

I don't think that coming from the military would specifically help or hurt you with respect to pathology. Anecdotally, I know a guy who is finishing his military obligation now, he seems to have gotten a private job just fine and without a formal fellowship. Another one of our trainees is just starting his engagement as an army staff pathologist and was happy with his setup, last I heard. Go with the flow and if you do like path, it will be a great career for you.
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Ombret said:
If you have >12 years before you have to look for a job, then you probably shouldn't put too much stock in the discussions you see here--especially since (I'm trying to phrase this tactfully) not all pathologists would agree that the situation is dire or even particularly bad.

I don't think that coming from the military would specifically help or hurt you with respect to pathology. Anecdotally, I know a guy who is finishing his military obligation now, he seems to have gotten a private job just fine and without a formal fellowship. Another one of our trainees is just starting his engagement as an army staff pathologist and was happy with his setup, last I heard. Go with the flow and if you do like path, it will be a great career for you.
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Thanks for the reply. I know that I shouldn't be overly concerned with the job market at this time now. My real concern was how my military background and training would affect my competitiveness for a job. I should have worded my post differently.
 
Mace1370 said:
I will be starting third year soon and pathology is on my list of specialties that I am interested in. Having read most of this thread, I am a little concerned about the job market since I will probably be forced to stay in my current area.

However, I am in the military and will be working for them for 7 years after my residency/fellowships due to my payback. Once I separate from the military, would my CV be more or less competitive than most of the pathologists looking for civilian jobs? I assume more competitive since I will have 7 years of work experience, but I thought I would ask to clarify.
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If you are already committed to the military then you are set. No worries about the job market. Just enjoy being a pathologist. When/if you get out of the military you will have experience and connections and no trouble landing a good job.
 
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Ombret said:
If you have >12 years before you have to look for a job, then you probably shouldn't put too much stock in the discussions you see here--especially since (I'm trying to phrase this tactfully) not all pathologists would agree that the situation is dire or even particularly bad.

I don't think that coming from the military would specifically help or hurt you with respect to pathology. Anecdotally, I know a guy who is finishing his military obligation now, he seems to have gotten a private job just fine and without a formal fellowship. Another one of our trainees is just starting his engagement as an army staff pathologist and was happy with his setup, last I heard. Go with the flow and if you do like path, it will be a great career for you.
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the big positive about the military is that when you get out (assuming you get out after your obligation) is that you have 2-or-so years of REAL experience as a boarded staff (attending) pathologist and that will trump a fellowship-only background every time. I went thru the military and neither I or anyone I knew coming out had any problem landing a job.
 
Mace1370 said:
I will be starting third year soon and pathology is on my list of specialties that I am interested in. Having read most of this thread, I am a little concerned about the job market since I will probably be forced to stay in my current area.

However, I am in the military and will be working for them for 7 years after my residency/fellowships due to my payback. Once I separate from the military, would my CV be more or less competitive than most of the pathologists looking for civilian jobs? I assume more competitive since I will have 7 years of work experience, but I thought I would ask to clarify.
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Feel free to PM.

There's a few of us Army folks on here (we're going to be your staff in 2 years as right now there's at least one staff from each MEDCEN on here). If you haven't figured it out yet, either knowingly or unknowingly, you already made one of the best decisions of your life in choosing the Army over the other 2 branches (particularly for a USUHS guy)... so congrats on that. [Edit: I mean that in the pure context of Pathology inside the military. In general, one branch isn't better or worse than the others. But for pathology, it's much better in the Army. Purely my opinion of course :)]

Anecdotally, I've never known anyone to have a hard time finding a nice position after having served back their initial payback, until this year. This year, someone has been having a hard time because they're geographically restricted (to a Pacific NW city). That's balanced by at least 2 other guys who have set up really nice private jobs (4 years post-training surg path experience with no fellowship).
 
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Agree that you will be set coming from the military. A friend of mine is headed to a staff pathologist job with the Air Force this summer after finishing AP/CP. I think he'll do very well. I know a few of the Walter Reed trained pathologists, and they are rock stars. I think you're in good shape, my friend. No worries.
 
"And CAP does have it finger on the pulse of the job market. See page 15 of the May CAP TODAY."

CAP TODAY is a throw away journal, always emergency toilet paper when I'm on the road, comes in nice big sheets. :luck:
 
From reading all of the posts about the job market for pathology I am ridiculously scared to even consider going into it. Since it is so bad I feel like I should go elsewhere but it REALLY catches my interest. What would you all suggest to be a good alternative?
 
justcurious jay said:
From reading all of the posts about the job market for pathology I am ridiculously scared to even consider going into it. Since it is so bad I feel like I should go elsewhere but it REALLY catches my interest. What would you all suggest to be a good alternative?
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go though med school, go into what you like best. The market is not ideal, but it's not a wasteland either. I don't know any out-of-work pathologists. Also, who's to say the situation is good anywhere? Sure, derm and orthopedics will always have buisness and always make money. But they are small fields, you may not like them, and may not be able to match into them anyway.
 
The surgical subspecialties are a good choice. They are the straws that stir the drink. They are heavily recruited by hospitals and able to make money off other fields in medicine (i.e. hire pathologists, hospitalists, anesthesiologists, etc...) in the future of bundled payments they will still sit on top of the food chain. Economically hospital based pathology is a bottom feeder specialty as we can't go get patients and bring them to the hospital. Surgeons are like sharks. Patients are tuna. Pathologists are like clams. The surgeons eat what they kill and we survive on what floats our way.

So all else being equal, surgical subspecialty would be the way to go. Now if you are uncordinated and can't handle the hard work/pressure/lifestyle of surgery, then that obiously wouldn't work for you.
 
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pathstudent said:
The surgical subspecialties are a good choice. They are the straws that stir the drink. They are heavily recruited by hospitals and able to make money off other fields in medicine (i.e. hire pathologists, hospitalists, anesthesiologists, etc...) in the future of bundled payments they will still sit on top of the food chain. Economically hospital based pathology is a bottom feeder specialty as we can't go get patients and bring them to the hospital. Surgeons are like sharks. Patients are tuna. Pathologists are like clams. The surgeons eat what they kill and we survive on what floats our way.
So all else being equal, surgical subspecialty would be the way to go. Now if you are uncordinated and can't handle the hard work/pressure/lifestyle of surgery, then that obiously wouldn't work for you.
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:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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Its about time for BU Pathology to chime in with "EVERYONE GOT A JOB". That would make the discussion complete.;)
 
KeratinPearls said:
Yes I am so sick and tired of it. This forum is really a place for ppl to come and vent.
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Well with >20,000 views, it seems to be a relevant topic for most people. I'm pretty concerned, but not yet panicing....although that could change in the next year... I don't think everything is as rosey as people have been painting it lately.
 
Napoleon1801 said:
Well with >20,000 views, it seems to be a relevant topic for most people. I'm pretty concerned, but not yet panicing....although that could change in the next year... I don't think everything is as rosey as people have been painting it lately.
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Agreed, you still have those that would rather not hear/read about it and stick their head in the sand, hence the above responses.
 
The fact that we're talking about hypothetical scenarios of people doing 4 fellowships reflects the crappiness of the job market. When will the bad job market deniers accept the facts about supply and demand? We shouldn't have to get a medical degree, PhD., undergo residency training and 4 fellowships to prove our worthiness of getting a job
 
It's very sad that there is such an oversupply of pathologists in the USA. There is a global, worldwide shortage of pathologists, especially in Europe. While the shortage isn't as bad in Canada (however there is no oversupply of pathologists in Canada, far from it), the shortage is extremely critical in a few provinces such as Quebec and some eastern provinces. Therefore, if you're willing to move up North and take the appropriate steps, you will probably find a good job. In most provinces about 30-50% of the pathologists work in academic centers. The rest work in community hospitals. There is no private labs and no one gets hired by clinicians billing for your work.
 
thebouque said:
It's very sad that there is such an oversupply of pathologists in the USA. There is a global, worldwide shortage of pathologists, especially in Europe. While the shortage isn't as bad in Canada (however there is no oversupply of pathologists in Canada, far from it), the shortage is extremely critical in a few provinces such as Quebec and some eastern provinces. Therefore, if you're willing to move up North and take the appropriate steps, you will probably find a good job. In most provinces about 30-50% of the pathologists work in academic centers. The rest work in community hospitals. There is no private labs and no one gets hired by clinicians billing for your work.
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Good points, but being a fellow Canadian though non-pathologist, I have to also say that Quebec has a shortage of most physician specialists because Quebec pays the worst and you need to be fluent in Quebecois French to get a job. You'll make half as much in Quebec as the next worst province. The Eastern provinces are fairly rural and have poor tax rates too.

Furthermore, most pathologists in Canada are salaried hospital employees (no fee for service practice) which isn't ideal if you're a pathologist. You lose half of your income to tax and have no control over your practice. Admins see pathologists as lab techs and not physicians, and treat them with as much dignity.
 
Substance said:
Good points, but being a fellow Canadian though non-pathologist, I have to also say that Quebec has a shortage of most physician specialists because Quebec pays the worst and you need to be fluent in Quebecois French to get a job. You'll make half as much in Quebec as the next worst province. The Eastern provinces are fairly rural and have poor tax rates too.

Furthermore, most pathologists in Canada are salaried hospital employees (no fee for service practice) which isn't ideal if you're a pathologist. You lose half of your income to tax and have no control over your practice. Admins see pathologists as lab techs and not physicians, and treat them with as much dignity.
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Still, the average wage for quebec pathologists is around 280 K, and physicians in canada can incorporate ( not sure if you can incorporate if youre salaried but very few pathologists in quebec are salaried). You made an excellent point about the language barrier. Finally, in Canada, the vast majority of pathologists are AP only.
 
thebouque said:
Still, the average wage for quebec pathologists is around 280 K, and physicians in canada can incorporate ( not sure if you can incorporate if youre salaried but very few pathologists in quebec are salaried). You made an excellent point about the language barrier. Finally, in Canada, the vast majority of pathologists are AP only.
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Another big thing scaring docs away from Quebec is the barrage of bureaucratic bullcrap. isn't there some sort of recertification examination that Quebec docs must write every so often? No other province has that.

As far as I know if you are paid as a salaried employee, the benefits of incorporation(lower corporate tax rate by 35%, tax-free dividends to family members) cannot be taken advantage of. Sure you get a pension but no pension is worth 150k yearly.

Since the volume in peripheral centers isn't high enough to have a lot of pathologists, there aren't a lot of jobs there (unless one wants to do forensic or medical postmortems, which many don't).

The academic centers, where most paths work, make a lot of money billing for the pathologist work and pay them 50% for it, or less. At least that's how it is in my english-speaking province.

Therefore, pathology as a career is stable but unfairly treated.

Contrast this to the similar field of radiology which has a fee for service model and makes double what a pathologist makes and can incorporate. I know in Quebec radiologists make double your quoted figure, on average.
 
Substance said:
Contrast this to the similar field of radiology which has a fee for service model and makes double what a pathologist makes and can incorporate. I know in Quebec radiologists make double your quoted figure, on average.
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There's no doubt about that, they can easily hit the 5-600k per year.
 
thebouque said:
There's no doubt about that, they can easily hit the 5-600k per year.
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I see this very often in the hospital. Physicians constantly worry what other physicians are making and are therefore are dissatisfied with what they make.
 
Specimens must be dying in the middle of the streets up in Canada. :eek: The horror!

Thankfully there is a major oversupply of pathologists in the states. We let other docs exploit us just so we can get some work. Don't want to bite the hand that feeds you.

A pathology residency is a physician assistant residency for doctors. You get to be a gross monkey, leading into a career where you are a surgeon, gi, uro monkey (gotta beg and kiss butt for those specimens). The career where you assist the real doctors...haha.
 
path24 said:
Specimens must be dying in the middle of the streets up in Canada. :eek: The horror!

Thankfully there is a major oversupply of pathologists in the states. We let other docs exploit us just so we can get some work. Don't want to bite the hand that feeds you.

A pathology residency is a physician assistant residency for doctors. You get to be a gross monkey, leading into a career where you are a surgeon, gi, uro monkey (gotta beg and kiss butt for those specimens). The career where you assist the real doctors...haha.
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Despite the apparent sarcasm, I feel a lot of bitterness in this post. If the last paragraph represents what a pathologist is for you, well you're entitled to your opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and some people find gratification in a career where they get to assist real doctors :rolleyes:, and on top of that they get to be called doctor as well! It's a win win situation.
 
mlw03 said:
Is there a link for this story in English? Haven't lived in Canada quite long enough to pick up French.
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Sorry for intruding in this conversation since i'm not a pathologist but I wonder, if there is such an oversupply of them and it's so hard to find a job, why not scale back residency positions and even not take applications say for a cycle or so until things balance out? Other specialties do it, why not path?
 
mlw03 said:
Is there a link for this story in English? Haven't lived in Canada quite long enough to pick up French.
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Here's a rough translation/summary:

In Quebec, some pathologists work part time to avoid burn out. An overworked pathologist is less efficient and is more at risk to make mistakes. There are 200-205 pathologists in Quebec when there should be 300 of them. The pathologists are aiming for a realistic 250. For example, many academic centers should have between 1 and 10 additional pathologists. New positions have to be created but in order to attract canadian graduates and international pathologists (mostly from France since there's a France-Quebec agreement), the compensations should be increased (that was a few years ago, things are a bit better now).
 
thebouque said:
Here's a rough translation/summary:

In Quebec, some pathologists work part time to avoid burn out. An overworked pathologist is less efficient and is more at risk to make mistakes. There are 200-205 pathologists in Quebec when there should be 300 of them. The pathologists are aiming for a realistic 250. For example, many academic centers should have between 1 and 10 additional pathologists. New positions have to be created but in order to attract canadian graduates and international pathologists (mostly from France since there's a France-Quebec agreement), the compensations should be increased (that was a few years ago, things are a bit better now).
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Merci.
 
thebouque said:
It's very sad that there is such an oversupply of pathologists in the USA. There is a global, worldwide shortage of pathologists, especially in Europe. While the shortage isn't as bad in Canada (however there is no oversupply of pathologists in Canada, far from it), the shortage is extremely critical in a few provinces such as Quebec and some eastern provinces. Therefore, if you're willing to move up North and take the appropriate steps, you will probably find a good job. In most provinces about 30-50% of the pathologists work in academic centers. The rest work in community hospitals. There is no private labs and no one gets hired by clinicians billing for your work.
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Well **** man, if you live in america you're also probably going to find a good job too. And why do clinicians not hire pathologists and bill for their work? Because there is no incentive to do so. There is in the US, so it happens. THAT IS THE FREE MARKET.

Some people on this forum are a little off mentally. Ask anyone on the street these two questions:

1) What is a "dire" job market?
2) How would you describe a job market where essentially everyone gets a high paying job, above the median of the average physician, only you might have to move somewhere else to get it?

Because #2 does not describe a "dire" job market. Are you guys politicians? Just saying something doesn't make it so. A "dire" job market is like the market for new lawyers not fron the Ivy League. Very high unemployment, and of those who are employed they are getting paid under $30k per year for 80 hours a week. That is dire.
 
I'm an MS4 doing a path rotation right now, and I told the chair about how people on these forums are saying the path job market is bleak. She said that there are many jobs yet to be filled and that the people on the forums are probably the ones who have a hard time getting jobs and/or are unduly unsatisfied with their jobs or job prospects.
 
Ask the people actively looking for jobs....I think they are on the frontlines of the issue. I've heard the same story from people in my department, but their story doesn't always jive with what I see happen to the fellows.
 
Anyone familiar with the ProPath group in Dallas?
 
McSorely said:
Anyone familiar with the ProPath group in Dallas?
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Ask yourself if you would like to see some "senior pathologist" take the majority of your paycheck every two weeks while he/she works less than you and you sit at your scope and take all the phone calls.

Academic pathologist like their cushy jobs with a steady flow of government subsidized residents to do their dirty work. Of course they will tell you everything is dandy. I unfortunately listened to these people at onetime myself during my 3rd year of medical school and am paying the price when I am told I better accept what I offered or I will be replaced. PA's in pathology have more leverage than I do.
 
I know someone who interviewed there a few years ago. Don't know many details. There are many senior ppl who make good money, not sure about how the juniors are treated. They rarely have openings. They are huge and do lots of dermpath. Lots of Hopkins trained folks from what I hear. You can leave a CV on file with them through their HR dept, but I don't think this has resulted in much as far as eventually landing a job there from what I hear. Good luck if you are interested. DFW area is tough.
 
handwriting said:
I'm an MS4 doing a path rotation right now, and I told the chair about how people on these forums are saying the path job market is bleak. She said that there are many jobs yet to be filled and that the people on the forums are probably the ones who have a hard time getting jobs and/or are unduly unsatisfied with their jobs or job prospects.
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Go ahead and get a list of those many jobs she knows about, where they are, what they pay, what kind of fellowship(s) one needs to get them, etc. Might be able to auction off contact numbers for them, depending on which end of the spectrum of opinions is more accurate.
 
Napoleon1801 said:
Ask the people actively looking for jobs....I think they are on the frontlines of the issue. I've heard the same story from people in my department, but their story doesn't always jive with what I see happen to the fellows.
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You get a different story no matter who you talk to. That includes people looking for jobs who had no trouble getting one and were actively recruited. Your experience may vary. I have no doubt that region of the country is very important. To me, the most important things that impact people's experience of the job market are:

1) IMG status
2) Region of the country they are looking
3) Residency program and pedigree
4) General social skills and level of dickishness or self superiority or whatever other trait you may have that everyone hates to be around. Generally also accompanied by lack of insight into their own problems.
5) Type of fellowship they did.

And yes, I would definitely put #5 behind the others. #5 can be critically important for specific jobs at specific locations, however. If your dream job is at a certain private group in Lexington KY and they really need someone to do cytopath and you didn't do it, then you are SOL. But if they don't care about cytopath then it doesn't matter whether you did it or not.

A lot of the people I know personally who have serious trouble with the job market fall into categories #1 and #4 above. #1 it often isn't their fault, although when #1 is combined with #4 there is a tendency to blame #1 when actually the real problem is #4. IMGs can face a tough road, especially when they have poor communication skills.

If you combine #4 with internet access you get the SDN path forums.
 
lipomas said:
You get a different story no matter who you talk to. That includes people looking for jobs who had no trouble getting one and were actively recruited. Your experience may vary. I have no doubt that region of the country is very important. To me, the most important things that impact people's experience of the job market are:

1) IMG status
2) Region of the country they are looking
3) Residency program and pedigree
4) General social skills and level of dickishness or self superiority or whatever other trait you may have that everyone hates to be around. Generally also accompanied by lack of insight into their own problems.
5) Type of fellowship they did.

And yes, I would definitely put #5 behind the others. #5 can be critically important for specific jobs at specific locations, however. If your dream job is at a certain private group in Lexington KY and they really need someone to do cytopath and you didn't do it, then you are SOL. But if they don't care about cytopath then it doesn't matter whether you did it or not.

A lot of the people I know personally who have serious trouble with the job market fall into categories #1 and #4 above. #1 it often isn't their fault, although when #1 is combined with #4 there is a tendency to blame #1 when actually the real problem is #4. IMGs can face a tough road, especially when they have poor communication skills.

If you combine #4 with internet access you get the SDN path forums.
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Well said. We all have our own relatively small sample sizes, but the only person I've known in the past 4 years to have not gotten a job was/is someone who's a big #4 with 2 fellowships completed.
 
mlw03 said:
Well said. We all have our own relatively small sample sizes, but the only person I've known in the past 4 years to have not gotten a job was/is someone who's a big #4 with 2 fellowships completed.
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Does he (it's almost always a he) frequent SDN?

I should add that there is another number to add to the list, #6, which is often higher depending on its severity. #6 is the "lifestyle" blurb where candidates have demands on their job that can be hard to fit in. "I can only work Monday to Thursday and I can't take call and I don't want to sign out cytology and I take one month off every summer to travel to Australia." Combine this with #4 and you have someone who has severe "trouble" with the job market, has no insight into it at all, and likes to complain about it and blame everyone else.
 
Tiki said:
Amen to that. Sometimes I can't even stand to come on here.
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He he, get used to it. I was in the physicians lounge the other day and all I heard was whine whine whine. All the physicians complained about how poor they were and how they were just going to give it all up as they drove away in their new BMW and Mercedes convertibles.

Please, its part of the profession. Own it ;)
 
The best thing about the internet is forums for introverted people to complain. I say let them bitch, if it is therapeutic and keeps them from bringing weapons to work.

Really this place doesnt seem any different from the doctor's lounge at work, especially since the supreme court decision.
 
lipomas said:
Does he (it's almost always a he) frequent SDN?

I should add that there is another number to add to the list, #6, which is often higher depending on its severity. #6 is the "lifestyle" blurb where candidates have demands on their job that can be hard to fit in. "I can only work Monday to Thursday and I can't take call and I don't want to sign out cytology and I take one month off every summer to travel to Australia." Combine this with #4 and you have someone who has severe "trouble" with the job market, has no insight into it at all, and likes to complain about it and blame everyone else.
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Yes, he. Not on SDN, far as I know.
 
I came across this job posting at the following link: http://jama.careers.adicio.com/jobs/detail/49632460/181

SIPARADIGM LLC in Oradell, NJ, seeks Pathologist/Hematopathologist. Duties: Interpretation & rendering pathologic diagnosis of bone marrow biopsies & aspirates, lymph nodes specimens, surgical pathology specimens & samples submitted for cytogenetics, molecular & flow cytometry studies; including the appropriate scientific handling & work up of specimens, preparing & signing out pathology reports. Requires: MD or foreign equiv, Anatomical & Clinical Pathology residency & Hematopathology fellowship. Salary: $110,000/yr. CVs to [email protected]

Are you kidding me? 110,000 a year? Is this what we are worth now?
Are we going to keep on churning out graduates who will have either no jobs or low paying jobs?

Would we really be earning less than pharmacists and physicians assistants if there were not enough pathologists?
 
scienceguy19 said:
I came across this job posting at the following link: http://jama.careers.adicio.com/jobs/detail/49632460/181

SIPARADIGM LLC in Oradell, NJ, seeks Pathologist/Hematopathologist. Duties: Interpretation & rendering pathologic diagnosis of bone marrow biopsies & aspirates, lymph nodes specimens, surgical pathology specimens & samples submitted for cytogenetics, molecular & flow cytometry studies; including the appropriate scientific handling & work up of specimens, preparing & signing out pathology reports. Requires: MD or foreign equiv, Anatomical & Clinical Pathology residency & Hematopathology fellowship. Salary: $110,000/yr. CVs to [email protected]

Are you kidding me? 110,000 a year? Is this what we are worth now?
Are we going to keep on churning out graduates who will have either no jobs or low paying jobs?

Would we really be earning less than pharmacists and physicians assistants if there were not enough pathologists?
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That's pathetic!
 
A busy henatipathologist probably gets reimbursed 500,000 for billing the professional component of interpreting flow, aspirates, clots, biopsies, lymph nodes and special stains and immunos. Either that pathologist ain't very busy or someone is making a hefty chunk of change.

The Medicare reimbusement for a 88305x2 85097 86060 88189 88311 88313 (the basic cpt codes for a simple bone marrow and flow not requiring additional studies) is about 400. Private insurers would get you closer to 500 or 600. So you would only need to do about 1-2 day an work full time to make 110,000. Of course there is the cost of transcription and reporting but that can all be covered by the insanely profitable technical component.
 
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