job prospects in 10 years
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If you want to be the captain of the airliner, don't go to flight attendant school and then whine and cry when they won't give you the yoke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anest2005
All this talk is really, really pissing me off. This is a debate being conducted on a online message board by medical students vs. CRNA students. None (well maybe a few) of you honestly have any clue what it is like in the real world. Why? Because thos of us in our mid to late 30's (or beyond) have already gone through residency.
this guy has one post, he is a CRNA trying to get us to stop trying to have a voice and its bullshht. Viva la revolucion
Originally Posted by anest2005
All this talk is really, really pissing me off. This is a debate being conducted on a online message board by medical students vs. CRNA students. None (well maybe a few) of you honestly have any clue what it is like in the real world. Why? Because thos of us in our mid to late 30's (or beyond) have already gone through residency.
drRumi said:
this guy has one post, he is a CRNA trying to get us to stop trying to have a voice and its bullshht. Viva la revolucion
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you know what's pretty funny. I've noticed that within teh span that we have had this thread running, several new posters with 1 post have been popping up. It's quite obvious who they really are...none other than are nursing students Nurse Nitecap and rn2323123.
I think both of them are just saying what the #$#k, how the heck did these doctors collaborate? I'm glad that our generation of anesthesiologists (well to be) is doing something that no other generation has done working together. I genuinely hope that throughout residency and beyond we could maintain this unity which will allow us to conquer any barrier and help us eliminate the little weeds that pop up.
P.S. to all of you that PMd me, keep an eye on your inboxes prolly around Friday or Saturday.
peace
I think both of them are just saying what the #$#k, how the heck did these doctors collaborate? I'm glad that our generation of anesthesiologists (well to be) is doing something that no other generation has done working together. I genuinely hope that throughout residency and beyond we could maintain this unity which will allow us to conquer any barrier and help us eliminate the little weeds that pop up.
P.S. to all of you that PMd me, keep an eye on your inboxes prolly around Friday or Saturday.
peace
L
leopold stotch
norgeringerike said:
dude your evil.
good ****.
norgeringerike said:
I think this made my night.... As a doc and a pilot I liked it, so thank you! Honestly I will hire 2-3 PA's over another MD for the pure case I will see complex issues, and PA's can see easier patients and write orders (RX). So I think if there could be some ballance in your field you would see a influx in patient vol. and pay. They need to know the line, and do not cross that line. At the end of the day, it is your lic. They can bitch all day, and no MD will ever let a less trained person walk on their turf. Not only with gas, but all fields.
My husband went to Harvard for his MBA and he expects to get paid better then a person who went to Umass. Not that one is really better, but he earned it, and so did all of us MD's.
Again you have no clue what you are talking about. CMS puts out a dollar amt per unit for each state or area and decides the number of units aloted to a certain type of case like say a lap chole. If you have a MD and CRNA that are both independent contractors and they both do a lap chole in facilities across the street from each other and the cases are exactly identical they will be reimbursted the same. No matter the education and training we still end up with the same outcome for this case so why should one get reimbursted anymore than the other by the government? Not to mention both contractors will have to carry their own malpractice insurance policy, pay their own retirements and own medical insurance. In this situation the practitioner with the most contracts and doing the most paying cases will make the most money. The talk to cheaper labor provided by CRNA is baseless when talking reimburstment. They only way this could come into play is if hospitals hired CRNA's directly and paid them a flat salary and did the billing carriers and kept the reimurstments. This however many times is not the case being that anesthesia is usually not a big money maker for the hospital. Hiring directly also increases employment over head along with increasing indirect expenses such as benefits ect. A huge rich hospital can do this but many smaller hospitals just contract the anesthesia work out and dont worry about it.
CRNA school is 2-3 yrs depending on the individual program and cost a pretty penny most of the time. Like I said per year my program cost more than the med school we are within. Most med students are biology majors therefore if all of a suddden they didnt get into medschool or changed their mind they wouldnt have many decent job offers. So factoring in my lost salary I would have made as a travel nurse over the 2.6 yrs I am in school we would add another 175k to my nearly 150k it will cost to go to CRNA school to total 375k. Making 70k /yr as a traveler is more than average but even factoring in an average of 50k/yr x 2.5 year is still an extra 150k in lost salary that you have to factor in to the equation.
So more money spent on education does not equal I am better than you. I suppose the Tulane grad that pays 40k a yr is better than the baylor grad that pays 18k/yr?
You guys' resilience and passion is impressive but as for the substance of your auguments, that on the other hand is a joke. Its a lack of knowledge, a lack of facts, and a total misconception with judgement placing based on inccuracy and pretty much not knowing crap but thinking you know
CRNA school is 2-3 yrs depending on the individual program and cost a pretty penny most of the time. Like I said per year my program cost more than the med school we are within. Most med students are biology majors therefore if all of a suddden they didnt get into medschool or changed their mind they wouldnt have many decent job offers. So factoring in my lost salary I would have made as a travel nurse over the 2.6 yrs I am in school we would add another 175k to my nearly 150k it will cost to go to CRNA school to total 375k. Making 70k /yr as a traveler is more than average but even factoring in an average of 50k/yr x 2.5 year is still an extra 150k in lost salary that you have to factor in to the equation.
So more money spent on education does not equal I am better than you. I suppose the Tulane grad that pays 40k a yr is better than the baylor grad that pays 18k/yr?
You guys' resilience and passion is impressive but as for the substance of your auguments, that on the other hand is a joke. Its a lack of knowledge, a lack of facts, and a total misconception with judgement placing based on inccuracy and pretty much not knowing crap but thinking you know
nitecap said:
I'm not saying anything negative you, as an anesthetist. All I'm pointing out is that SRNA school is 2 years and on average a bit cheaper than med school. That doesn't necessarily make me a better at what you do. I just don't understand what cost you 150K... strip clubs? J/K (don't get mad).
Look regardless, a business major usually gets paid proportionally less to an MBA. I want you to be well-compensated, but I don't agree with an argument that you should receive money on par with a physician, because you're not. But I'm not a corrupt politician, and basing the way stuff happens in PA, my vote doesn't count for anything either. So I can't really change anything. (the current gubernatorial race is between mr. sleaze/promises and mr. steeler, who has no political background to speak of)
I am confident as long as there are surgeries there will be a need for anesthesiologist (and CRNAs).
hey guys,
I hope you physicians to be are have been reading the ASA newsletter lately, there's been some interesting points on there.
p.s. to Nurse Nitecap, we're truly flattered that you feel so disturbed as to follow and read each of our posts and do searches on our post hx. This shows a true sense of insecurity and almost despair. Looks like us Anesthesiologists to be actually can unify and are concerned about patient safety and care.
I hope you physicians to be are have been reading the ASA newsletter lately, there's been some interesting points on there.
p.s. to Nurse Nitecap, we're truly flattered that you feel so disturbed as to follow and read each of our posts and do searches on our post hx. This shows a true sense of insecurity and almost despair. Looks like us Anesthesiologists to be actually can unify and are concerned about patient safety and care.
toughlife said:
nitecap said:
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nitecap said:
Ah, the irony.
toughlife said:
From this link
"I would never wish to cause someone to be unable to provide for his family. I do willfully however, help to impose the standards for anesthesia training designed by CRNA's. Why are we supposed to welcome AA's? Yes, I would like to see the abolition of all AA programs. Does the UAW welcome foreign workers? No other profession says, "Here's your competion, now play nicely together.". If you want to become an anesthetist, go to nursing school. Spend your time in the ICU. Go to CRNA school. Viola! You now have 50 state recognized credentials and are free from your legislative worries of the AA. Plus you now have the backing of 30, 000 brothers and sisters."
Ah, the irony...
This makes me sick. What makes me really sick however it the possibility that anesthesia has become so safe because of the resarchers of Doctors that it may actually indeed be safe for these parapro whatevers to takeover the field without an increase in negative outcomes. Face it, without a negative outcome, the public and therefore legislation will not protect our jobs -- why should they? 👎
The other possibility is that with the boomer proceedures surgical volume will increase at a rate faster than both the MD numbers and para-pros can cover them -- so for at least a period there should be enough for everyone. It seems that if this were true it would last until the boomers need fewer and fewer surgeries -- I would guess more than 10 years. 👍
On the other hand the number of surgeons needs to go up as well. 😕
ob
The other possibility is that with the boomer proceedures surgical volume will increase at a rate faster than both the MD numbers and para-pros can cover them -- so for at least a period there should be enough for everyone. It seems that if this were true it would last until the boomers need fewer and fewer surgeries -- I would guess more than 10 years. 👍
On the other hand the number of surgeons needs to go up as well. 😕
ob
opa beleza? said:
No need to dispair. The issue, like Thinkfast007 has candidly pointed out, is to make sure you stay abreast of changes in the profession, be politically active and know where the CRNAs stand.
Maybe my naivete blinds me, but I would go out on a limb and say that AAs seem to support the anesthesia care model. I want to make it clear that I am not against anyone doing anesthesia for living. I do however, take issue when someone such as nitecap come here and antagonizes our chosen field.
You gotta make it known that you will not stand for anything less than the MD/DO-supervised model and strongly oppose any move by the CRNAs to do otherwise.
my $0.02
L
leopold stotch
nitecap said:
yeah, that's pretty ironic dude.
nitecap said:
No offense, but if I was a patient and it would cost me the same to have my anesthesia provided to me by a nurse or a physician I know 10 out of 10 would choose a doctor.
toughlife said:
I almost applied to Case Western's AA program before deciding to go all the way towards becoming a physician. I spent a day there and I definately got the sense that a major theme of their education was based around the care/team model. Everyone was great there, and the MD and AA's got along great.
I think they are taught the interdependence of one another from day one. Like allies. I was very impressed with everyone when I visited, and spent about 8 hours shadowing pediatric cases. It really kicked off a major interest in anesthesiology. Also, for the record, their graduates are getting good jobs all over the place, in the care team model. I was also very impressed with the quality of people that I met in the program. I met about 5 of their 1st year students. I'm all for AA's.
toughlife said:From this link
"I would never wish to cause someone to be unable to provide for his family. I do willfully however, help to impose the standards for anesthesia training designed by CRNA's. Why are we supposed to welcome AA's? Yes, I would like to see the abolition of all AA programs. Does the UAW welcome foreign workers? No other profession says, "Here's your competion, now play nicely together.". If you want to become an anesthetist, go to nursing school. Spend your time in the ICU. Go to CRNA school. Viola! You now have 50 state recognized credentials and are free from your legislative worries of the AA. Plus you now have the backing of 30, 000 brothers and sisters."
Ah, the irony...
Get your shiat straight fool, that wasnt even my post.
nitecap said:
Are you hallucinating?
Show me where I said that was your post?
Those posts on the CRNA forum appears to display that we have worked beside you guys for so long now that we not only can do most of what you can clinically ,but are also just as paranoid, worried and uneasy about anyone else who is even a remote threat to take a peice of the pie.
Looks like they are trying to creep into PAIN as well, is nothing sacred with these people. I found this while checking out a nursing board:
http://allnurses.com/forums/f16/have-docs-kept-you-out-room-b-c-your-crna-151305.html
some exceprts:
Chronic pain is a whole different ballgame. That's the next big fight coming down the pike - it's already arrived in a couple states.
hey jwk/yoga
You mentioned chronic pain, so im assuming pain clinics and management etc? So what are the politics and issues surrounding that? Ive read a few things here and there but nothing clear?
if you dont mind, i like learning about this stuff, regardless of differences b/t AA/CRNA im interested in experienced viewpoints from either.
__________________
Mike
Mike,
CRNAs are very much involved with chronic pain. Visit this website http://napeseminars.com/. This is from a group of very respected CRNAs and, while I have never attended one of their seminars, I understand they are excellent.
Those CRNAs gave me excellent advise when I had a ruptured disc. They know their business.
Also, I heard an excellent lecture last year from a CRNA who runs the pain clinic at Walter Reed Medical Center. She talked about what they are doing for chronic pain control for the casulties of the Iraq war. Outstanding work. Makes me proud to be in the same profession.
Yoga
Re: Have Docs kept you out of an OR room b/c your a CRNA?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find it interesting.......
The practice of nurse anesthesia is to relieve pain. What is the difference between pain relief for an acute process (surgery) and a chronic process (herniated disk)? In both scenarios, we are relieving pain-in other words, we are doing our jobs.
This **** really pisses me off
http://allnurses.com/forums/f16/have-docs-kept-you-out-room-b-c-your-crna-151305.html
some exceprts:
Chronic pain is a whole different ballgame. That's the next big fight coming down the pike - it's already arrived in a couple states.
hey jwk/yoga
You mentioned chronic pain, so im assuming pain clinics and management etc? So what are the politics and issues surrounding that? Ive read a few things here and there but nothing clear?
if you dont mind, i like learning about this stuff, regardless of differences b/t AA/CRNA im interested in experienced viewpoints from either.
__________________
Mike
Mike,
CRNAs are very much involved with chronic pain. Visit this website http://napeseminars.com/. This is from a group of very respected CRNAs and, while I have never attended one of their seminars, I understand they are excellent.
Those CRNAs gave me excellent advise when I had a ruptured disc. They know their business.
Also, I heard an excellent lecture last year from a CRNA who runs the pain clinic at Walter Reed Medical Center. She talked about what they are doing for chronic pain control for the casulties of the Iraq war. Outstanding work. Makes me proud to be in the same profession.
Yoga
Re: Have Docs kept you out of an OR room b/c your a CRNA?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find it interesting.......
The practice of nurse anesthesia is to relieve pain. What is the difference between pain relief for an acute process (surgery) and a chronic process (herniated disk)? In both scenarios, we are relieving pain-in other words, we are doing our jobs.
This **** really pisses me off
Fellas...this quote:
and the irony of this link:
http://allnurses.com/forums/f16/aa-...und-151480.html
closes the deal on what the true intent of these CRNAs are if ANYONE ever doubted them. Yo Toughlife and MiamiDC, guys, I wish you had told me about those links earlier 😉 ! AMAZING. These CRNAs are quite deceptive in their tactics to gain ground among Anesthesiologists and their attempt to 'suppress' the AAs.
Do I sense hypocrisy? I think that hole over there that he created for himself is about 6 feet already, wouldnt you say? 👎
Future doctors: today I got to chat a little with the guys that do insurance contracts with the hospital (pretty cool peeps actually). Anyways, I told them I was going into Anesthesiology,etc. THe funniest thing. They were like do you know what group of physicians we absolutely hate dealing with cuz they are soo non-negotiable? I was like who? They're like anesthesiologists. They're like, "in every contract we've written, all the docs will agree with the rates the insurance company pushes down their throat, 'cept for the anesthesiologists"! I was like hell yah...very pleased to know that most anesthesiologists dont 'settle' for the rates that HMOs etc set.
But, he did warn me, that more and more, cuz of this CRNA issue and the increase they have in terms of their 'leverage' that we should be careful. It's funny, but he said the exact thing we've been saying on here..."most docs wont collaborate, and they'll want to use the immediately more profitable method, ie CRNAs". Unfortunately, he was telling me, in teh big scheme of things, by using them, we're seriously going to have our pay plummet.
Just some food for thought. so what did I get out of taht little chat? We must keep this unity strong and have it become STRONGER!!
nitecap said:
and the irony of this link:
http://allnurses.com/forums/f16/aa-...und-151480.html
closes the deal on what the true intent of these CRNAs are if ANYONE ever doubted them. Yo Toughlife and MiamiDC, guys, I wish you had told me about those links earlier 😉 ! AMAZING. These CRNAs are quite deceptive in their tactics to gain ground among Anesthesiologists and their attempt to 'suppress' the AAs.
Do I sense hypocrisy? I think that hole over there that he created for himself is about 6 feet already, wouldnt you say? 👎
Future doctors: today I got to chat a little with the guys that do insurance contracts with the hospital (pretty cool peeps actually). Anyways, I told them I was going into Anesthesiology,etc. THe funniest thing. They were like do you know what group of physicians we absolutely hate dealing with cuz they are soo non-negotiable? I was like who? They're like anesthesiologists. They're like, "in every contract we've written, all the docs will agree with the rates the insurance company pushes down their throat, 'cept for the anesthesiologists"! I was like hell yah...very pleased to know that most anesthesiologists dont 'settle' for the rates that HMOs etc set.
But, he did warn me, that more and more, cuz of this CRNA issue and the increase they have in terms of their 'leverage' that we should be careful. It's funny, but he said the exact thing we've been saying on here..."most docs wont collaborate, and they'll want to use the immediately more profitable method, ie CRNAs". Unfortunately, he was telling me, in teh big scheme of things, by using them, we're seriously going to have our pay plummet.
Just some food for thought. so what did I get out of taht little chat? We must keep this unity strong and have it become STRONGER!!
Other than we have worked our asses off and have/will earned it... can someone give a bumper sticker/billboard argument statement of why the public should choose a doc vs. a tech (CRNA...AA..whatev..)
I think it may be important to consolidate an argument that can be amplified and hopefully convince the public (and to help lobby politicians) of why the techs need to be kept under supervision.
I think without a succinct (sp?) and defined argument this all sounds like fighting over money -- and it may well be, but that will not sell and will not seal the deal in our favor it could even hurt us if we look greedy.
Any info on patient outcomes? that might be convincing...
this is good guys -- keep it up... 👍
ob
I think it may be important to consolidate an argument that can be amplified and hopefully convince the public (and to help lobby politicians) of why the techs need to be kept under supervision.
I think without a succinct (sp?) and defined argument this all sounds like fighting over money -- and it may well be, but that will not sell and will not seal the deal in our favor it could even hurt us if we look greedy.
Any info on patient outcomes? that might be convincing...
this is good guys -- keep it up... 👍
ob
1)it's not all about the $$$, so you dont use thtat as the 'selling point".
there are other things we can do, but we can't mention that on here. We'll leave that for the private forum 👍
there are other things we can do, but we can't mention that on here. We'll leave that for the private forum 👍
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opa beleza? said:
Thanks for hitting the nail right on the head. Thats what the guys on the surgery forum said of this as well. Most defended and acknowledged CRNA compentency. Its odd that a MD, someone who is on your side would state that.
nitecap said:
were there only CRNAs around when the surgeons defended and acknowledged CRNA competency? If there wasn't, then fine, if only CRNAs were around, well, use your brain (i.e. they were blowing steam up your arses)
No it was on the surgery forum on this very website as your boy thinkslow tried to bring the MD vs CRNA debate there and was shot down immediately as well as called out. He punked out as usual. See the link for yourself, it is locked on this forum 1st page couple down.
when the new forum is up and running. Nothing left to do in this forum.
signing out
take care y'all
signing out
take care y'all
dude you should check out the article on the "ASA and ASAPAC" thread. A plastic surgeon used a CRNA without an Anesthesiologist supervising...what was the end result? An expired patient.driverabu said:
The importance of vigilance and patient saftey is our responsibility. It's a privelege that we must never allow to be usurped by individuals ready to provide 'cheaper' services. Surgeons, well they are the leader of the 'surgical problem'.
ThinkFast007 said:
Man you have no clue. SO do no pts ever expire under an anesthesiologists care? There are poor and great clinicians within all hlth care fields. You see it ever day. Why would you personally goto one cardilogist and not the other? B/c you have seen that person in action and believe in them and their abilities. I see great CRNA's, and Anesthesiologist everday while I see ones that I pesonally think are weak when comparing their practice to the great ones. This occurs in all fields all the time. Whats your Point. I personally witness CRNA's that are more capable than senior residents and attendings all the time. Especially older attendings unwilling to change their practice habbits though techonolgy and research has changed proving better courses. You are a joke again and I can promise you, you will struggle as a new residents and I can promse you that I with my limited OR times will be able to run circles around your but when you first start. Especially with the weakness you constantly display. Toughen up man, your attendings have a lot of work to do man, you will be the one learning the hard way for sure since you know it all already. Yeah CRNA's are so unsafe they have been around for 100yrs and no one has noticed except a handful of greedy insecure anesthesiologist. Again talk to your brothers on the surg forum and ask them straight up. They told you how they feel much to your demise.
Please google Anesthesiologist malpractice and you will see tons of cases and examples of lack of vigilance believe me.
nitecap said:
[FONT=Arial Black]IM BEGGING THE MODERATORS/ PLEASE BAN THIS GUY... PLEASE.. LET HIM GO TO HIS NURSING FORUM AND MAKE FUN OF US WE DONT NEED HIM IN HERE... .
Why b/c I have an opinion and not afraid to state it. As long as the bashing continues I have no other option but to defend. Its nothing personal and all relevant to this forum and to what we all do and desire. Just as anyone here is quick to point out any mistakes or inaccuaries in my posts, I will do the same. Esp to someone that has no clue.
funny thing is that he's only a student CRNA...so if they're like him right now, just imagine what they're all 'really' like....frank51 said:
Arrogant and insecure when comparing them to who? This forum proves that you guys are more arrogant and insecure than even the very CRNA's you claim to be arrogant and insecure. We all know its always the MD that usually is the arrogant one. Funny I read this article earlier and it reminds me of many MD's I have worked with though not all. Some are great, cordial and very respected. While others go thru the transformation from nerd and weenie to big shot, big wig I deserve everything since I went to school so long whining baby that thinks they are better than all.
Office Depot CEO Steve Odland remembers like it was yesterday working in an upscale French restaurant in Denver.
The purple sorbet in cut glass he was serving tumbled onto the expensive white gown of an obviously rich and important woman. "I watched in slow motion ruining her dress for the evening," Odland says. "I thought I would be shot on sight."
Thirty years have passed, but Odland can't get the stain out of his mind, nor the woman's kind reaction. She was startled, regained composure and, in a reassuring voice, told the teenage Odland, "It's OK. It wasn't your fault." When she left the restaurant, she also left the future Fortune 500 CEO with a life lesson: You can tell a lot about a person by the way he or she treats the waiter.
Odland isn't the only CEO to have made this discovery. Rather, it seems to be one of those rare laws of the land that every CEO learns on the way up. It's hard to get a dozen CEOs to agree about anything, but all interviewed agree with the Waiter Rule.
They acknowledge that CEOs live in a Lake Wobegon world where every dinner or lunch partner is above average in their deference. How others treat the CEO says nothing, they say. But how others treat the waiter is like a magical window into the soul.
And beware of anyone who pulls out the power card to say something like, "I could buy this place and fire you," or "I know the owner and I could have you fired." Those who say such things have revealed more about their character than about their wealth and power.
Whoever came up with the waiter observation "is bang spot on," says BMW North America President Tom Purves, a native of Scotland, a citizen of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, who lives in New York City with his Norwegian wife, Hilde, and works for a German company. That makes him qualified to speak on different cultures, and he says the waiter theory is true everywhere.
The CEO who came up with it, or at least first wrote it down, is Raytheon CEO Bill Swanson. He wrote a booklet of 33 short leadership observations called Swanson's Unwritten Rules of Management. Raytheon has given away 250,000 of the books.
Among those 33 rules is only one that Swanson says never fails: "A person who is nice to you but rude to the waiter, or to others, is not a nice person."
Swanson says he first noticed this in the 1970s when he was eating with a man who became "absolutely obnoxious" to a waiter because the restaurant did not stock a particular wine.
"Watch out for people who have a situational value system, who can turn the charm on and off depending on the status of the person they are interacting with," Swanson writes. "Be especially wary of those who are rude to people perceived to be in subordinate roles."
The Waiter Rule also applies to the way people treat hotel maids, mailroom clerks, bellmen and security guards. Au Bon Pain co-founder Ron Shaich, now CEO of Panera Bread, says he was interviewing a candidate for general counsel in St. Louis. She was "sweet" to Shaich but turned "amazingly rude" to someone cleaning the tables, Shaich says. She didn't get the job.
Shaich says any time candidates are being considered for executive positions at Panera Bread, he asks his assistant, Laura Parisi, how they treated her, because some applicants are "pushy, self-absorbed and rude" to her before she transfers the call to him.
Just about every CEO has a waiter story to tell. Dave Gould, CEO of Witness Systems, experienced the rule firsthand when a waitress dumped a full glass of red wine on the expensive suit of another CEO during a contract negotiation. The victim CEO put her at ease with a joke about not having had time to shower that morning. A few days later, when there was an apparent impasse during negotiations, Gould trusted that CEO to have the character to work out any differences.
CEOs who blow up at waiters have an ego out of control, Gould says. "They're saying, 'I'm better. I'm smarter.' Those people tend not to be collaborative."
"To some people, speaking in a condescending manner makes them feel important, which to me is a total turnoff," says Seymour Holtzman, chairman of Casual Male Retail Group, which operates big-and-tall men's clothing stores including Casual Male XL.
How people were raised
Such behavior is an accurate predictor of character because it isn't easily learned or unlearned but rather speaks to how people were raised, says Siki Giunta, CEO of U.S. technology company Managed Objects, a native of Rome who once worked as a London bartender.
More recently, she had a boss who would not speak directly to the waiter but would tell his assistant what he wanted to eat, and the assistant would tell the waiter in a comical three-way display of pomposity. What did Giunta learn about his character? "That he was demanding and could not function well without a lot of hand-holding from his support system," she said.
It's somewhat telling, Giunta says, that the more elegant the restaurant, the more distant and invisible the wait staff is. As if the more important the customer, the less the wait staff matters. People view waiters as their temporary personal employees. Therefore, how executives treat waiters probably demonstrates how they treat their actual employees, says Sara Lee CEO Brenda Barnes, a former waitress and postal clerk, who says she is a demanding boss but never shouts at or demeans an employee.
"Sitting in the chair of CEO makes me no better of a person than the forklift operator in our plant," she says. "If you treat the waiter, or a subordinate, like garbage, guess what? Are they going to give it their all? I don't think so."
CEOs aren't the only ones who have discovered the Waiter Rule. A November survey of 2,500 by It's Just Lunch, a dating service for professionals, found that being rude to waiters ranks No. 1 as the worst in dining etiquette, at 52%, way ahead of blowing your nose at the table, at 35%.
Waiters say that early in a relationship, women will pull them aside to see how much their dates tipped, to get a read on their frugality and other tendencies. They are increasingly discussing boorish behavior by important customers at www.waiterrant.net and other blogs. They don't seem to mind the demanding customer, such as those who want meals prepared differently because of high blood pressure. But they have contempt for the arrogant customer.
Rule works with celebrities, too
The Waiter Rule also applies to celebrities, says Jimmy Rosemond, CEO of agency Czar Entertainment, who has brokered deals for Mike Tyson, Mario Winans and Guerilla Black. Rosemond declines to name names, but he remembers one dinner episode in Houston a few years back with a rude divisional president of a major music company.
When dinner was over, Rosemond felt compelled to apologize to the waiter on the way out. "I said, 'Please forgive my friend for acting like that.' It's embarrassing. They go into rages for simple mistakes like forgetting an order."
Rosemond says that particular music executive also treated his assistants and interns poorly - and was eventually fired.
Odland says he saw all types of people 30 years ago as a busboy. "People treated me wonderfully and others treated me like dirt. There were a lot of ugly people. I didn't have the money or the CEO title at the time, but I had the same intelligence and raw ability as I have today.
"Why would people treat me differently? Your value system and ethics need to be constant at all times regardless of who you are dealing with."
Holtzman grew up in the coal-mining town of Wilkes-Barre, Pa., and in the 1950s saw opportunity as a waiter 90 miles away in the Catskill Mountains, where customers did not tip until the end of the week. When they tipped poorly, he would say: "Sir, will you and your wife be tipping separately?"
"I saw a lot of character, or the lack thereof," says Holtzman, who says he can still carry three dishes in his right hand and two in his left.
"But for some twist of fate in life, they're the waiter and you're the one being waited on," Barnes says.
Office Depot CEO Steve Odland remembers like it was yesterday working in an upscale French restaurant in Denver.
The purple sorbet in cut glass he was serving tumbled onto the expensive white gown of an obviously rich and important woman. "I watched in slow motion ruining her dress for the evening," Odland says. "I thought I would be shot on sight."
Thirty years have passed, but Odland can't get the stain out of his mind, nor the woman's kind reaction. She was startled, regained composure and, in a reassuring voice, told the teenage Odland, "It's OK. It wasn't your fault." When she left the restaurant, she also left the future Fortune 500 CEO with a life lesson: You can tell a lot about a person by the way he or she treats the waiter.
Odland isn't the only CEO to have made this discovery. Rather, it seems to be one of those rare laws of the land that every CEO learns on the way up. It's hard to get a dozen CEOs to agree about anything, but all interviewed agree with the Waiter Rule.
They acknowledge that CEOs live in a Lake Wobegon world where every dinner or lunch partner is above average in their deference. How others treat the CEO says nothing, they say. But how others treat the waiter is like a magical window into the soul.
And beware of anyone who pulls out the power card to say something like, "I could buy this place and fire you," or "I know the owner and I could have you fired." Those who say such things have revealed more about their character than about their wealth and power.
Whoever came up with the waiter observation "is bang spot on," says BMW North America President Tom Purves, a native of Scotland, a citizen of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, who lives in New York City with his Norwegian wife, Hilde, and works for a German company. That makes him qualified to speak on different cultures, and he says the waiter theory is true everywhere.
The CEO who came up with it, or at least first wrote it down, is Raytheon CEO Bill Swanson. He wrote a booklet of 33 short leadership observations called Swanson's Unwritten Rules of Management. Raytheon has given away 250,000 of the books.
Among those 33 rules is only one that Swanson says never fails: "A person who is nice to you but rude to the waiter, or to others, is not a nice person."
Swanson says he first noticed this in the 1970s when he was eating with a man who became "absolutely obnoxious" to a waiter because the restaurant did not stock a particular wine.
"Watch out for people who have a situational value system, who can turn the charm on and off depending on the status of the person they are interacting with," Swanson writes. "Be especially wary of those who are rude to people perceived to be in subordinate roles."
The Waiter Rule also applies to the way people treat hotel maids, mailroom clerks, bellmen and security guards. Au Bon Pain co-founder Ron Shaich, now CEO of Panera Bread, says he was interviewing a candidate for general counsel in St. Louis. She was "sweet" to Shaich but turned "amazingly rude" to someone cleaning the tables, Shaich says. She didn't get the job.
Shaich says any time candidates are being considered for executive positions at Panera Bread, he asks his assistant, Laura Parisi, how they treated her, because some applicants are "pushy, self-absorbed and rude" to her before she transfers the call to him.
Just about every CEO has a waiter story to tell. Dave Gould, CEO of Witness Systems, experienced the rule firsthand when a waitress dumped a full glass of red wine on the expensive suit of another CEO during a contract negotiation. The victim CEO put her at ease with a joke about not having had time to shower that morning. A few days later, when there was an apparent impasse during negotiations, Gould trusted that CEO to have the character to work out any differences.
CEOs who blow up at waiters have an ego out of control, Gould says. "They're saying, 'I'm better. I'm smarter.' Those people tend not to be collaborative."
"To some people, speaking in a condescending manner makes them feel important, which to me is a total turnoff," says Seymour Holtzman, chairman of Casual Male Retail Group, which operates big-and-tall men's clothing stores including Casual Male XL.
How people were raised
Such behavior is an accurate predictor of character because it isn't easily learned or unlearned but rather speaks to how people were raised, says Siki Giunta, CEO of U.S. technology company Managed Objects, a native of Rome who once worked as a London bartender.
More recently, she had a boss who would not speak directly to the waiter but would tell his assistant what he wanted to eat, and the assistant would tell the waiter in a comical three-way display of pomposity. What did Giunta learn about his character? "That he was demanding and could not function well without a lot of hand-holding from his support system," she said.
It's somewhat telling, Giunta says, that the more elegant the restaurant, the more distant and invisible the wait staff is. As if the more important the customer, the less the wait staff matters. People view waiters as their temporary personal employees. Therefore, how executives treat waiters probably demonstrates how they treat their actual employees, says Sara Lee CEO Brenda Barnes, a former waitress and postal clerk, who says she is a demanding boss but never shouts at or demeans an employee.
"Sitting in the chair of CEO makes me no better of a person than the forklift operator in our plant," she says. "If you treat the waiter, or a subordinate, like garbage, guess what? Are they going to give it their all? I don't think so."
CEOs aren't the only ones who have discovered the Waiter Rule. A November survey of 2,500 by It's Just Lunch, a dating service for professionals, found that being rude to waiters ranks No. 1 as the worst in dining etiquette, at 52%, way ahead of blowing your nose at the table, at 35%.
Waiters say that early in a relationship, women will pull them aside to see how much their dates tipped, to get a read on their frugality and other tendencies. They are increasingly discussing boorish behavior by important customers at www.waiterrant.net and other blogs. They don't seem to mind the demanding customer, such as those who want meals prepared differently because of high blood pressure. But they have contempt for the arrogant customer.
Rule works with celebrities, too
The Waiter Rule also applies to celebrities, says Jimmy Rosemond, CEO of agency Czar Entertainment, who has brokered deals for Mike Tyson, Mario Winans and Guerilla Black. Rosemond declines to name names, but he remembers one dinner episode in Houston a few years back with a rude divisional president of a major music company.
When dinner was over, Rosemond felt compelled to apologize to the waiter on the way out. "I said, 'Please forgive my friend for acting like that.' It's embarrassing. They go into rages for simple mistakes like forgetting an order."
Rosemond says that particular music executive also treated his assistants and interns poorly - and was eventually fired.
Odland says he saw all types of people 30 years ago as a busboy. "People treated me wonderfully and others treated me like dirt. There were a lot of ugly people. I didn't have the money or the CEO title at the time, but I had the same intelligence and raw ability as I have today.
"Why would people treat me differently? Your value system and ethics need to be constant at all times regardless of who you are dealing with."
Holtzman grew up in the coal-mining town of Wilkes-Barre, Pa., and in the 1950s saw opportunity as a waiter 90 miles away in the Catskill Mountains, where customers did not tip until the end of the week. When they tipped poorly, he would say: "Sir, will you and your wife be tipping separately?"
"I saw a lot of character, or the lack thereof," says Holtzman, who says he can still carry three dishes in his right hand and two in his left.
"But for some twist of fate in life, they're the waiter and you're the one being waited on," Barnes says.
nitecap's posts, "blah blah blah blah"
sound kinda redundant huh?
sound kinda redundant huh?
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nitecap said:
Hey dude, why don't you just shut up? I mean, do you get wet fighting on the anesthesiology forum? Bottom line is that Anesthesiologists will always make more than CRNAs or AAs or whatever other As pop up in the future. I DON'T GIVE A RATS BEHIND and neither should you! If it bothers you soooooo much, you should have become an MD. Be happy with the profession you chose and let others be happy with theirs...Stick to the CRNA forum and quit acting like a damn 3 year old.....my 4 y/o acts more mature than your winey behind. SHUT UP!!!
👍stephend7799 said:
i cant agree with you any more than that brother.
nitecap said:
Nitecap sometimes I wonder why you like to endure the abuse that you receive in this forum. Are you some sort of masochist? Are you looking to belong?
I sometimes try to rationalize your continued presence here and your determination to be a part of this gig, and yet I can't come up with a logical explanation.
Have you noticed you seem to be the only SRNA who is on this forum on a regular basis?
I read your long, drawn-out posts trying to rebuke everyone else's opinion and I really feel bad for you. You spend so much time and so much energy trying to convince many of us of your competitive edge that I wonder if you have nothing else going on in your life besides anesthesia.
Do you have an SO, family or anyone else to spend your time with rather than being in the forum 24/7?
Seriously, you are so fixated on this that I think between thinkfast, miamidc, jwk, stephend, myself and the rest, you will go crazy trying to contradict everything we say.
I suggest you maintain your opinion and goals, whatever they may be, and use them to advance your cause. However, do yourself a favor and use your energy/time you spend on this forum to keep up with your studies, hang out with your family and enjoy your life. Try to think about other things besides gas. Otherwise, you may end up in a mental institution.
I know you didn't solicit my advice but I think you need a wakeup call.
toughlife said:
Nah Im a awake man. Im a little bit of a debater and actually have fun speaking my mind here. As for anything else going on in my life, your right, its all about anesthesia right now. When you finally get in the OR and out of the class room and actually learn about anethesia, which residents tell me you get very little in school, you will be all about it as well. My SO is in CRNA school as well so there goes that escape. Really I enjoy reading JWK, and Mill and all those cats clinical post plus a few of them are pretty funny. Otherwise its pretty enjoyable to bring out the worst in so called professionals that know it all.
Yeah like you and think and all the other guys prob my age or a lil older. I chose the right profession man believe me. If you would would compare earnings from the day one entered CRNA vs. Med school it would take you almost 20 years to catch up so financially I made the correct decision to do what I need to do. I am a bada$$ LOL already and have a finea$$ woman so I dont need a title for those things as many MD's do. As for debate hey im all about it. Thinkslow comes off as so unprofessional its not even funny. People recognize this really, many have called him out. He fails to handle the pressure. Either he ignores and runs with tail b/t legs or answers weakly, so he cant win. I make him look the fool either way. As for the cut downs aint no thing. Being where I am from me and my boys grew up ripping each other apart clowning the hell out of each other so I can take it. Believe me I face my opponents not up and run like the coward we all know.
Listen these aurgments or whatever you want to call them though aggrevating so many elders are relevant and necessary to all of our professions. Sorry many of you guys cant take hearing things you dont want to hear. Cover your ears. You dont see me starting bashing threads about MD's here, but when you guys start like I said I cant help myself. Here on this public forum we are all equal and all can say whatever the hell we want as long as we follow the rules and not get really personal aka try to start crap with the person behind the screen name.
So tough lets live up to your name man. Count me in whenever you are bashing my profession and passing inaccurate info and jargon here for others to learn from. If you guys wanna go circle jerk in your private forum have fun but dont forget the KY. Other than this I am chill and will not start mess but when provoked you can expect a cowboy lick from me man. As for the critizism bring it.
- Status
