Just Dean's letters/MSPE held until 11/01?

[cjw0918]

Quick question- this lady at my Dean's office is trying to tell me that transcripts are not allowed to go out to programs till Nov 1 with the Dean's letter. Is that right?

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[b&ierstiefel]

Quick question- this lady at my Dean's office is trying to tell me that transcripts are not allowed to go out to programs till Nov 1 with the Dean's letter. Is that right?

It just may be your school's policy. When I check my ADTS 42000 times a day, it says that my transcript has been uploaded however my MSPE/Dean's letter has not (like your school, our school doesn't send them out until Nov. 1st).

 

[yaah]

My transcript didn't go out until November 1, with the Deans letter, if I remember right. THey wanted to make sure they had as many grades in as possible. Andy may be different because he has finished all of his requirements. I do not know.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

My transcript didn't go out until November 1, with the Deans letter, if I remember right. THey wanted to make sure they had as many grades in as possible. Andy may be different because he has finished all of his requirements. I do not know.

I don't know what is on the transcript that was uploaded to the ERAS post office and subsequently downloaded along with my CAF, photo, personal statement by the various programs. However, I do know that programs have gotten a transcript from my institution. Maybe on November 1st, another, more recent version of the transcript may be sent out. I also do know that my other classmates' transcripts have been uploaded and downloaded by programs.

cjw, are all your 3rd year grades recorded? Could it be that 3rd year grades take a long time to get recorded at your institution? Recording grades here at Michigan works at a snail's pace. Pediatrics grades takes 3 months to get sent to the registrar. Surgery (which was my last grade) took 2+ months. My hypothesis is that your school sets November 1st as the absolute deadline for all 3rd year grades to get recorded and that's why your transcript hasn't been sent out yet. But alas I could be wrong. Let's face it, I've mis-predicted all the Michigan game scores/results so far...so clearly my head is up my ass in that department.

 

[cytoborg]

Hmm....that sounds weird...does that not place you at a disadvantage in the applicant pool? For programs that hold out till Nov. 1 to offer interviews perhaps it doesn't matter...but what about the rest? Will they still offer an invite without a transcript?

At my school the transcripts don't get scanned automatically - we actually have to order them and bring them to the ERAS person. (Incidentially, we are also responsible for harping on our course directors to submit our grades in a timely fashion. )

 

[desmangt]

Hmm....that sounds weird...does that not place you at a disadvantage in the applicant pool? For programs that hold out till Nov. 1 to offer interviews perhaps it doesn't matter...but what about the rest? Will they still offer an invite without a transcript?

At my school the transcripts don't get scanned automatically - we actually have to order them and bring them to the ERAS person. (Incidentially, we are also responsible for harping on our course directors to submit our grades in a timely fashion. )

The Dean's letters didn't go out until Nov. 1st at my school as well. That's when alot of the interviews will come rushing in. At least, that's how it was for me, but I didn't have my ERAS finished until the end of September.

 

[cytoborg]

That's when alot of the interviews will come rushing in. At least, that's how it was for me, but I didn't have my ERAS finished until the end of September.

That's good to know - I just got my ERAS in last week and have been wondering when those shining floodgates will open for me!

 

[Jeff1972]

Gotta question:

I just had a chance to preview my Dean's letter and was kind of suprised -- it's really just a textual rehash of my CV with clerkship comments and grades thrown in. That's it. There's really nothing over and above that, no personal quality to it.

Is that your understanding of what a Dean's letter should be?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Gotta question:

I just had a chance to preview my Dean's letter and was kind of suprised -- it's really just a textual rehash of my CV with clerkship comments and grades thrown in. That's it. There's really nothing over and above that, no personal quality to it.

Is that your understanding of what a Dean's letter should be?

That's my understanding Jeff. Dean's letters are basically form letters and there is a standard protocol that is followed when those letters are written. Personal qualities may be reflected in the clerkship evaluation comments. The individual letters of recommendation are more likely to be personalized though (I wouldn't know cuz I waived my right to see them and I haven't seen any of them).

Hope that helps. Cheers.

 

[deschutes]

Is that your understanding of what a Dean's letter should be?

Yep. Our school distributed a "sample" Dean's Letter, and that was pretty dry - most of the personalization comes from quoting preceptors' comments from throughout the med student's career. The content was certainly not swayed in any way by whether or not one knew the letter-writer well.

The idea is that the entire process is a balancing act - and if every student appears to walk on water, then the school's (and ultimately the individual student's) credibility is undermined.

 

[stormjen]

So what do you guys think of viewing the Dean's Letter before it is submitted to ERAS? I have to soon choose whether I want to see it or whether I'll waive my right to see it. Personally, I've had some academic difficulties so would really like to see how this is addressed in my letter. Plus it would be good to know where I stand in my class, rank-wise.

 

[deschutes]

So what do you guys think of viewing the Dean's Letter before it is submitted to ERAS? I have to soon choose whether I want to see it or whether I'll waive my right to see it. Personally, I've had some academic difficulties so would really like to see how this is addressed in my letter. Plus it would be good to know where I stand in my class, rank-wise.

You sound like you have made up your mind

If I were in your shoes, I probably would do the same - and be prepared to answer any questions that come up on the interview circuit.

At my pass/fail school, Dean's Letters are confidential - although students do get a fair idea of what will go into theirs. From the length of my interview and the advice that I was getting, it seemed that I was at least above average. Nothing tangible, of course. I still do plan on getting a clearer sense of what will eventually be written about my Internal Med rotation that is due to end Friday next week...

 

[doc05]

There's no reason to waive your right to see the Dean's Letter. It is nothing more than a standardized rehashing of your academic career, with particular emphasis on 3rd year clerkships.

You should be allowed to read it (at least we are at my school); it is important to be on the lookout for factual errors and typos.

Most importantly, regardless of whether you're at the top of the class or barely passing, you need to see what's being sent on your behalf.

Things are a little different for letters of recommendation, but the Dean's Letter isn't one of those.

 

[2005]

I found several errors in my Dean's letter. They also neglected to mention that my extended stay in school was due to medical issues and not due to the fact I had to repeat courses. I would highly recommend you exercise your option to view it. That way you will be able to address any issues that might come up during interviews.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

At our school, we definitely have the option to view our Dean's letter. From what I know, many schools have this policy. There are clearly certain situations where you would definitely want to view them and suggest appropriate corrections; some of which are detailed in the above posts so I won't rehash.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

So I just exercised my right to see my Dean's letter. Of course my first instinct was to jump to the part where it describes my performance on clinical clerkships during M3 year. I was told that they put on there verbatim comments regarding the student's strengths. However, my understanding was that negative comments are not included.

Now when I saw my Dean's letter, it seemed like everything was just copied and pasted. Comments like, "keep reading", "needs to apply book knowledge to clinical situations", "laid-back personality", "could improve presentation skills." I have until October 22nd to suggest any changes. My feeling is that I should request that comments such as these be removed; what have you all done?

Can we also suggest that comments such as, "this guy is the bomb", "this guy is the man behind the man behind the man (movie reference...anyone?)". I'm just kidding.

Basically, what liberties do we have when making suggestions for modifications to our Dean's letter? Here, the deans seem pretty open-minded unless the suggestions are outrageous

 

[deschutes]

Comments like, "keep reading", "needs to apply book knowledge to clinical situations", "laid-back personality", "could improve presentation skills." My feeling is that I should request that comments such as these be removed; what have you all done?

With the possible exception of "laid-back personality", I think you have just described all of us!

I don't know what sort of recommendation those sorts of comments intend to make, especially in the context of an MSPE.
Beats me why the Dean's Letter is held in such high esteem.

~
No negative comments?? Really?
Here the statement accompanying our invitation to schedule Dean's Letter interviews mentions that "negative comments cannot be ignored, especially if they consistently appear throughout a student's record". This - on top of the MSPE being a confidential document - is to maintain the integrity of the reference.

The ants are marching.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

With the possible exception of "laid-back personality", I think you have just described all of us!

Oh shush, you all are pretty laid-back, which agrees with your decision to go into path. Why would people think otherwise? On most occasions, I wouldn't balk at the "laid-back" comment. However, I think some PD's will construe this comment in a negative way (e.g., "laid-back" can be interpreted as, "this guy's gonna be a lazy sack of ... ") or in a positive light (e.g., "this guy is gonna be cool and easy to work with").

I don't know what sort of recommendation those sorts of comments intend to make, especially in the context of an MSPE.
Beats me why the Dean's Letter is held in such high esteem.

Heh...don't look to me for an answer? I too wonder why the Dean's letter is such an important document that it MUST be submitted on a specific date with all other Dean's letter.

No negative comments?? Really?
Here the statement accompanying our invitation to schedule Dean's Letter interviews mentions that "negative comments cannot be ignored, especially if they consistently appear throughout a student's record". This - on top of the MSPE being a confidential document - is to maintain the integrity of the reference.

See, our school says that negative comments will only appear if it they appear consistently. The negative comments I listed in my earlier post were not consistently appearing in my evals. Hence, each of them stick out like a sore thumb. Regarding the MSPE being a confidential document...hahaha! I never signed any form saying I waived my right to see it. So it's fair game to see it I say.

 

[yaah]

I wouldn't call most of the comments you listed extremely negative. They are things that could be said of all people. We all need to keep reading. We could all improve our presentation skills. The "applying book knowledge to clinical situations" comment is a bit funny but still not really a negative thing. If I was evaluating a candidate, I wouldn't consider things like this necessarily a bad thing. Can you ask your dean about these comments? I mean, perhaps these are in everyone's letters.

Deans letters are almost always copy and paste jobs. For our deans letter, the first couple of paragraphs we actually wrote ourselves (describing our background, and awards we had, any significant extracurriculars, etc). The next part was cut and paste from 3rd and 4th year grades. The last part was an "overall recommendation" level which was accompanied by a standard explanation for that level. I.E., "Recommend highly - this student is expected to do very well in residency and is in the top whatever percent of his class." Then there were also graphs and histograms included which displayed the grades for the entire class for every third year clerkship.

I would think the Deans office would have an option for you to meet briefly with the dean or someone else to go over the letter and ask questions about it. At my school we didn't have to exercise our option to see it, in fact everyone was sent a copy a couple of weeks before the due date to make any corrections (within reason, without changing any quotes obviously).

But anyway, I think you could request that certain comments be removed if you are not happy with them.

 

[deschutes]

Firstly, it seems we're pretty much on the same page regarding clerkship comments in the Dean's letter.

I didn't mean that those comments were extremely negative, or even negative - least of all in the context of a clerkship evaluation. It's just that when they are reproduced verbatim on an MSPE, the possibility of them being misconstrued is more than I would like.
PDs probably have tons more experience reading through these documents than I do - I simply imagine that if I were to come across a letter like that for the first time, I probably wouldn't help but think 'Is there really nothing else that can be said about this candidate, apart from the fact that s/he is "laid-back" ??'.
But as yaah says, perhaps everyone gets comments like that.

I believe the reason a specific date was chosen was because some programs made up their minds to interview based on the Dean's letter, and in the times before November 1 had been agreed upon, candidates from med schools that sent out Dean's letters later in the season were disadvantaged.

Oh and yes I will (eventually) have an understanding of what goes into my letter, confidential though it may still be.