Kanye West's mom's death d/t anesthesia?

Started by cchoukal
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Pre-emptive analgesia.Dahl JB, Møiniche S.
Department of Anaesthesiology, Glostrup University Hospital Ndr. Ringvej, DK-2600 Glostrup, Denmark. [email protected]

Transmission of pain signals evoked by tissue damage leads to sensitization of the peripheral and central pain pathways. Pre-emptive analgesia is a treatment that is initiated before the surgical procedure in order to reduce this sensitization. Owing to this 'protective' effect on the nociceptive system, pre-emptive analgesia has the potential to be more effective than a similar analgesic treatment initiated after surgery. Theoretically, immediate postoperative pain may be reduced and the development of chronic pain may be prevented. Although some clinical studies have demonstrated significant effects on acute postoperative pain, no major clinical benefits of pre-emptive analgesia have been documented. The only way to prevent sensitization of the nociceptive system might be to block completely any pain signal originating from the surgical wound from the time of incision until final wound healing. Other pharmacological interventions, including 'antihyperalgesic' drugs such as NMDA-receptor antagonists and gabapentin, may interfere with the induction and maintenance of sensitization. Future studies will investigate the analgesic effect of prolonged multimodal combinations of different classes of 'traditional' analgesics and 'antihyperalgesics' on postoperative pain.

PMID: 15596866 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Attacks like this, no matter how vehemntly you disagree with someone only serve to make yourself look stupid to the rest of us.

You apparently didn't read and/or understand what an "Ullman exception" is, nor did you follow this thread very carefully.

Friedberg is an eyesore on our profession who, if you've read anything he's said publicly, holds a lot of opinions that will serve to confuse and even potentially unnecessarily worry and concern the public, if his silliness catches on.

-copro
 
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Perhaps he's also a liar? You be the judge.

In these links...

http://www.cup.cam.ac.uk/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521870900&ss=fro

http://www.amazon.com/Anesthesia-Cosmetic-Surgery-Barry-Friedberg/dp/0521870909

http://cosmeticsurgery-anesthesia.com/press-releases/press-05-18-2007.htm

... he's been described as "volunteer assistant professor" at the USC Keck School of Medicine.

Here's the list of faculty at USC Keck School of Medicine Department of Anesthesiology:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/medicine/departments/anesthesiology/about/faculty.php

I don't see Dr. Friedberg's name anywhere on that list, "voluntary" or not? Does anyone else? In fact, if you search the entire faculty-wide directory, his name is nowhere to be found. Even better, if you search the "experts" directory, his name is also not found.

Are you actually officially affiliated with the Keck School of Medicine? Are they aware that you are allowing yourself to be listed as "faculty", in whatever capacity, in current press releases as well as your own website? Or, is this just some imaginary association that you've dreamed up to tell reporters in order to perhaps lend the air of pseudo-credibility to your self-righteous opinions?

-copro
 
I soon realized that there was nothing in the literature to support my practice in the event of an untoward event. There were no shortage of academicians eagerly awaiting the opportunity to be 'expert' witnesses.

To all those claiming they did it before me, I responded, "You don't need a publication to establish you were doing propofol ketamine MAC before me. Just show me an anesthetic record that predates my work and I will gladly credit you." Strangely, no one came forward.

Minerva Anestesiol. 1990 Mar;56(3):61-6.Links
[Propofol-ketamine vs propofol-fentanyl in short gynecologic surgery][Article in Italian]


Sicignano A, Bellato V, Cancellieri F, Foroni C, Giubelli D, Latis G, Moro D, Riboni A, Vesconi S.
Servizio di Anestesia e Rianimazione, Ospedale S. Paolo di Milano.

The study was performed to investigate efficacy and tolerability of the association propofol-ketamine as alternative to propofol-fentanyl. Forty female, classified ASA I-II, aged 18-50 years and scheduled for short gynecologic procedures under general anesthesia were included in a comparative, randomized, single blind study. Patients were divided in two groups; in group K anesthesia was induced with propofol 1.5 mg/kg and ketamine 1 mg/kg i.v. In group F anesthesia was induced with propofol 2.5 mg/kg and fentanyl 1.5 micrograms/kg. Arterial blood pressure (BP), heart rate (HR), respiratory rate (RR) and arterial O2 saturation (SATO2) were measured. Though preliminary, our data suggest that the association propofol-ketamine reach an adequate level of anesthesia with few and negligible effects on cardiorespiratory system, thus allowing a better operability and safety. The incidence of post operative psychotic disturbances seems to be low and moderate. We can't draw any definitive conclusion, but we think that other studies should be performed to clarify the possible role of ketamine in propofol anesthesia.
 
Do you understand now, Noyac?

-copro

I understand perfectly!

I also understand that he is not asking for royalties and he is not trademarking a term so that others can not use it.

I also understand , very well I might add, that there are not any good studies for or against preemptive analgesia.

I understand that aghast1 has been very cordial throughout this thread while you have been an immature little school boy who thinks he has all the answers. I will tell you that nobody here has all the answers and the first to say that they do is a total fake. But you son seem to think you have it all figured out, don't you.

I have some advice for you.

Nevermind I'm sure you are too good for advice. But I was not the one to attack you first and I'm sure you won't acknowledge that and leave differences alone. Therefore, we can all expect a completely slanderous response towards me because we are on an internet forum of course and there are no manners here much less respect.
 
#56 from Noyac represents mature response. Amen.

One mark of an educated man is the ability to disagree agreeably.

Anyone curious about my academic appointment is welcome to email my chief ([email protected]) to confirm.

I am pleased to report that despite being flamed, my web site continues to receive visitors from this web site. I thank all for your interest.

Best regards from warm & sunny Southern California,

aghast1
 
Minerva Anestesiol. 1990 Mar;56(3):61-6.Links
[Propofol-ketamine vs propofol-fentanyl in short gynecologic surgery][Article in Italian]

Sicignano A, Bellato V, Cancellieri F, Foroni C, Giubelli D, Latis G, Moro D, Riboni A, Vesconi S.
Servizio di Anestesia e Rianimazione, Ospedale S. Paolo di Milano.

The study was performed to investigate efficacy and tolerability of the association propofol-ketamine as alternative to propofol-fentanyl. Forty female, classified ASA I-II, aged 18-50 years and scheduled for short gynecologic procedures under general anesthesia were included in a comparative, randomized, single blind study. Patients were divided in two groups; in group K anesthesia was induced with propofol 1.5 mg/kg and ketamine 1 mg/kg i.v. In group F anesthesia was induced with propofol 2.5 mg/kg and fentanyl 1.5 micrograms/kg. Arterial blood pressure (BP), heart rate (HR), respiratory rate (RR) and arterial O2 saturation (SATO2) were measured. Though preliminary, our data suggest that the association propofol-ketamine reach an adequate level of anesthesia with few and negligible effects on cardiorespiratory system, thus allowing a better operability and safety. The incidence of post operative psychotic disturbances seems to be low and moderate. We can't draw any definitive conclusion, but we think that other studies should be performed to clarify the possible role of ketamine in propofol anesthesia.

Credit may be due to Sicignano et al. I was not aware of this paper. Thank you for the citation. If you have an English translation of the whole paper, I would greatly appreciate it if you would forward it to me.

However, it is not at all clear from the abstract that they were administering the ketamine as a mixture with the propofol or separately. This is not a trivial difference.

The mere suggestion of using 1.5 mg/kg propofol as a bolus for induction is not congruent with Vinnik's 1981 description of incremental doses of diazepam or my description of incremental doses of propofol.

With po clonidine premed, less than 1 mg/kg is needed to get BIS to 70-75 in 2-3 min. Prior to BIS, I used losss of lid reflex and loss of pt verbal response as endpoint prior to injecting the ketamine. Great for first ketamine dose but useless for later doses if needed.

The number of NMDA receptors do not vary with body weight.

50 mg will dissociate a 90 lb female as well as a 250 lb linebacker. A dose of 1 mg/kg ketamine reveals a lack of understanding about NMDA receptors.

The incidence of post operative psychotic disturbances seems to be low and moderate. 👎

No endpoint of hypnosis is described. OAA/S or other.

Hypnotic doses of diazepam (or propofol) block ketamine induced hallucinations.

Hypnosis first, then dissociation. Vinnik 1981, Friedberg 1992, etc.👍

Yes, they were using the two agents propofol and ketamine.

No, they were not following Vinnik or my approach for DK or PK MAC.

A rose by any other name would not smell as sweet.

PK TIVA is not PK MAC

Best regards,

aghast1
 
In Hollywood, there is no bad publicity as long as they spell your name correctly. 12 of 13 posts did so.....As far as my colleague Chrisitan Apfel, he has been citing "Propofol-ketamine technique, dissociative anesthesia for office surgery: a five year review of 1264 cases."

Ullman exception #2? Heheheeee!
 
1. The 6-megabyte headshot on the front page
2. The paragraph about his "futuristic" electric car (dude, does that thing come with a remote control?)
3. Calling BIS "futuristic"
4. Spelling errors (note the aversion to typos as above)
5. Use of the (unknown to me) degree/abbreviation "A.M.C." after "M.D."
 
50 mg will dissociate a 90 lb female as well as a 250 lb linebacker. A dose of 1 mg/kg ketamine reveals a lack of understanding about NMDA receptors.

Well 25mg will dissociate a 90lb female which i always do (attending permitting) on hip fractures.

another study:

Ann Fr Anesth Reanim. 1987;6(4):297-300.Links
[Ambulatory anesthesia and induced abortion. Comparative study of propofol-alfentanyl and ketamine-midazolam combinations][Article in French]


Bonnardot JP, Maillet M, Brulé ML, Deligné P.
The use of propofol alone or with alfentanil in the day-case anaesthesia for abortion was compared with that of ketamine with midazolam. Two hundred young women were assigned to two successive series of two groups each. The four groups were: group 1 (2 mg . kg-1 propofol only); group II (0.5 mg . kg-1 ketamine with 0.25 mg . kg-1 midazolam); group III (2 mg . kg-1 propofol with 4 micrograms . kg-1 alfentanil); group IV (1 mg . kg-1 ketamine with 0.1 mg . kg-1 midazolam). All the patients were premedicated one hour before anaesthesia with 0.25 mg . kg-1 midazolam orally. All the patients were asleep at the end of the propofol injection (60 s), and 10 to 15 s later for the ketamine-midazolam groups. The haemodynamic parameters did not vary much during induction with ketamine-midazolam. In the propofol groups, the heart rate remained steady, with an 8 to 12% fall in blood pressure. A fall of the mandible was seen in 40 and 84% of the patients in the propofol groups, with a short apnoea in 32 and 48% of these same patients. Clinical recovery was very quick, less than 12 min for all groups. The four psychomotor and sensory tests were carried out at the 30th min by 95% of the patients in the propofol groups, whereas only 50% of those in the ketamine-midazolam groups did so. Speed and quality were significantly better in the propofol groups. The most frequent adverse effect of propofol was pain during injection in 32 and 14% of patients.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
 
do your patients understand that all you are measuring with the BIS is your propofol??? and not an accurate read in somebody who is dissociated with ketamine.... that BIS number you rely on so heavily is very unreliable on the whole -- for example, after I paralyze somebody their BIS drops 20-30 points, etc...

250 cases / year and you are living well??? most people don't pay more than $1,000 for their anesthesia for cosmetic surgery - it doesn't matter how much you point out the BIS monitor....

there is something sad about somebody who sees the need to promote themselves with press-releases, etc... promote your technique - encourage its use in scientific circles ... but quit the press releases --- how sad... is it really that competitive in SoCal that you need to resort to these tactics?
 
Since I do not wish to be politically incorrect as to gender, I enclose guys with marks.

#63 What part of mixing do you not understand? I have never claimed 'mixology' as my contribution.

My claim is to have replaced diazepam with propofol and using the propofol as Vinnik described using diazepam. Is this too esoteric to grasp?😕

Mixing propofol and ketamine is not the same as titrating propofol to a specific endpoint and then adminstering the dissoicative dose of ketamine.

FWIW, I agree that 25 mg ketamine will do the job for the old lady's fractured hip. We used 10 mg in the 1970s, like before you were born:idea:, for the same effect.

25 mg ketamine will dissociate about 80% of adults.

I find it too tedious to stop the surgeon's injection re-medicate 1 in 5 patients. There is no downside to using a 50 mg ketamine dose if one takes care to titrate to a specific hypnotic endpoint. 50 mg will dissociate about 98% of pts.

Bolus propofol inductions based on body weight are a positively antedeluvian practice suitable for emergency or 'crash' inductions but definitely suboptimal for elective cosmetic surgery. My patients have not required ephedrine or bagging with my incremental approach.

From 1992 to 1994, my patients repeatedly kept saying that the best part was the going to sleep part. Only after 2 years of this message did I finally appreciate what they were saying. A gradual propofol induction is a more gentle induction. Duh. I admit to being a slow learner, but then I didn't have y'all to learn from.🙄

Vinnik's initial dose was 75 mg which I found too high. Few pts. emerged with horizontal nystagmus, sometimes provoking PONV - first 25 cases 1992.👎

Have yet to see anything posted that resembles what Vinnik or I have been doing. Sorry, Charlie. Starkist® likes tuna that tastes good not tuna with good taste.🙄

'Hypnosis first, then dissociation' was clearly enunciated by Vinnik in 1981.

The article cited in #63 states group II (0.5 mg . kg-1 ketamine with 0.25 mg . kg-1 midazolam).

No endpoint of sedation like loss of lid reflex, loss of verbal response, OAA/S score is given. Unless you are titrating a hypnotic (i.e. diazepam, methohexital, or even propofol) to a specific endpoint, you are not following Vinnik's paradigm or mine (based on his). I guess I may not be the only slow learner here.🙄



#64 You are really straining.

Pity you did not have the courtesy to read my articles (gratis on my web site) before kicking up such a silly ruckus.

Had you bothered to read before criticizing, you might have noted one of my acronyms: RASV, room air, spontaneous ventilation. That means my patients are not paralyzed. (FWIW, AMC is a medical corporation, less icky than INC, I thought in 1977, again before you were born🙄.)

Had you read the clonidine premed article, you might have understood why my EMG levels tend to hover around the 'zero' which is actually 30 on the EMG scale.

Had you bothered to read the BIS/ketamine article, you could have known that it is quite possible to measure propofol with BIS even in the presence of a 50 mg dissociative dose of ketamine.

The only really sad thing is your lack of initiative in reading my articles before criticizing. Don't feel badly. You are hardly alone. That's why my favorite page in Anesthesia in Cosmetic Surgery is the one following the title page:

Come mothers and fathers throughout the land
And don't criticize what you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out the new one if you can't lend a hand
For the times they are a-changin'


Robert 'Bob Dylan' Zimmerman
"The Times They Are A-Changin"
1963

This little gem cost me $100 and a copy to his foundation. Well worth it I thought. As far as my fees and cases, it is really none of your concern. Try to focus on patient safety and the best achievable outcomes.

As for my press releases, its a lot like the stuff on TV. If you don't like it, don't read or watch it. Duh.:laugh:

Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan.

There are many, many specious claims to my approach with propofol and ketamine. On SDN there are some better researched ones but they remain specious nonetheless.

Keep up the good work,

Your pal in SoCal,
aghast1
 
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I read this entire post with great interest. I have been doing my outpt anesthesia rotations recently with the frequent cosmetic surgery cases. I have been doing a propofol ketamine mix, oral airway and nasal canula with great success. I have not been using clonidine upfront rather using midaz. Couple ?'s.

1. What is the most obese patient you have done?
2.Whats your protocol for those with GERD
3. Do you standardly give glyco
4. How do you address coughing during the procedure (i have found its generally due to inadequate suctioning by surgeons during septoplasty)

thanks
 
#63 What part of mixing do you not understand? I have never claimed 'mixology' as my contribution.

My claim is to have replaced diazepam with propofol and using the propofol as Vinnik described using diazepam. Is this too esoteric to grasp?😕

If you want the gloves to come off, no problem...

Mixing propofol and ketamine is not the same as titrating propofol to a specific endpoint and then adminstering the dissoicative dose of ketamine.

One more time your endpoint changes once you administer an other drug...
 
If all it takes to send you to 'battle stations' is to point out the shortcoming of your logic, I am concerned for your patients.

dhb: "If you want the gloves to come off, no problem...":scared:

Not interested in a slug fest. But if you insist...😱

Just growing weary of trying to help you understand that giving propofol to a specific endpoint (loss of lid reflex, loss of verbal response or BIS <75 with incremental propofol induction) separately is simply not the same as administering a mixture of the two agents.

dhb: "One more time your endpoint changes once you administer an other drug..."

Really? 🙄 Always impressed when a resident tries to educate me on a technique I developed and have practiced exclusively for 15 years. True, I am a slow learner, but...

Please take some time to read: The effect of a dissociative dose of ketamine on the bispectral (BIS) index during propofol hypnosis. (lead article) Journal of Clinical Anesthesia 11:4,1999 posted on my web site. (Reading is free! No registration reqired!) It may clarify the issue.

best regards,

aghast1
 
Oh, wait! Nevermind. Why fight 'em if you can join 'em? So, I just trademarked a technique. It's called Patient-Friendly Anesthesia™ and anyone who tries to use that name without my permission will be taken to court for trademark infringement.

My attorneys will be contacting you shortly regarding your infringement of my previously patented Patient-Happy Anesthesia&#8730;™©® technique. I expect you will immediately cease any and all attempts to compassionately and competently deliver anesthetics. Thank you for your understanding.

The rest of you, please stay tuned for my upcoming press release regarding the use of mood-rings as a tool to titrate drugs delivered to Patient-Happy&#8730;™©® levels.
 
Barry, we all know TIVA is not the same as MAC. You are performing TIVA. We do this in a multitude of different settings. I've performed a wide variety and large number of TIVA cases on many different surgeries and patient populations from proctological exams to prone spinal neuromonitoring cases to minimal surgical/cosmetic procedures. And, I'm only a resident.

I will state again the following so it's clear to everyone:

(1) You are not doing anything unique or earthshattering.
(2) BIS monitoring does not guarantee you will have no awareness under anesthesia.
(3) A TIVA is a general anesthetic fraught with all of the potential risks and complications of any other general anesthetic. The fact that you are publicly and implicitly minimizing those risks, in my opinion, makes you at the very least a poor spokesman, or worse a danger, to our profession.

I have had patients puking their brains out after a "pure" ketafol anesthetic. I don't believe you are doing anything special, and there is certainly nothing compelling you to report "unexpected" outcomes or complications with your technique, if you can even admit that you've had any (which, based on previous posts, you can't or won't).

Furthermore, the fact that you are doing so few anesthetics a year makes me believe that you are probably not at the top of your game, as you perhaps mistakenly believe. Last year I personally provided over 800 anesthetics. That's roughly 65 per month. You freely admit you are doing less than 1/3 of that. And, if you're doing only 250 per year, you're either charging an outrageous amount of money for your services, or you are trying to profiteer from book sales and other sources of "extraneous" income.

I can only hope that you will shut up and go away, but I seriously doubt that will happen. So, instead I just keep my fingers crossed that once the dust settles, people will just simply ignore you.

-copro
 
seinfeld post #67:

"I read this entire post (#65) with great interest. I have been doing my outpt anesthesia rotations recently with the frequent cosmetic surgery cases. I have been doing a propofol ketamine mix, oral airway and nasal canula with great success. I have not been using clonidine upfront rather using midaz. Couple ?'s.

1. What is the most obese patient you have done?
2.Whats your protocol for those with GERD
3. Do you standardly give glyco
4. How do you address coughing during the procedure (i have found its generally due to inadequate suctioning by surgeons during septoplasty)

thanks"


I am not doubting your success. My comments stem from an obsessive compulsive need to simplify.

First, no benzos since 1997. C BIS <75, propofol is a perfectly adequate amnestic.

Often, only the rhytidectomy (facelfit) position (head extended and laterally rotated) is the only airway manipulation my pts. req. even for many abdominoplasties.

Next is a 1,000 cc IV bag under the shoulders (not the neck) to increase force of extension on genioglossus muscle.

Next, would be my fav. airway is a nasal airway which seems to provoke less coughing than an oral one, esp. in smokers.

Lastly, LMA. About 10-2% in my practice. Again, the incremental propofol induction is a win-win. Pt. enjoys drifting off and my coronaries stay dilated.

FWIW, this is Table 1-7 in Ch. 1 of Anesthesia in Cosmetic Surgery.

O2 rarely needed if one monitors c BIS & incrementally induces and maintains the case c propofol.

To simplify, if O2 req., stuff a catheter in the nasal airway.

As for your questions:

1. most obese pt. recently was 280 pound (about 5'2") s/p 100 lb wt. loss, not gastric bypass. Pt. had a 20 lb. abdominal pannus that obstructed her view of her feet. Yes, had to LMA and O2 but only when she proved she could not be maintained with lesser trespass.

2. GERD protocol: just some Bicitra or whatever the pt. is stable on @ home. FWIW, don't have much experience c GERD pts. MIA is non-emetogenic, so unless you have a GERD pt. having an abdominoplasty, I wouldn't be too exorcised.

3. 0.2 mg glyco routine up front c 2 ccs 1% lido to insure no pain c prop.

4. If osteotomies are planned, I always use a flexi LMA to ballot to esoph. and shield the trachea. flexi keeps most blood out of stomach (barf city) and gets the tube out of the surgeon's way while keeping my coronaries dilated.

PEARL: sneezing or coughing c ketamine may be the only prodrome for laryngospasm. Only rarely will you hear 'crowing,' except maybe on my press releases.😀

I usually treat coughing c 1 mg per pound IV lidocaine. Works well. 100 mg in your 'av' 70 kg pt will often req a repeat dose. My coronaries can''t stand prolonged hypoxemia for these pts. Also, BIS may give intra-op clue to XS lido. Lido tox. hasn't happened in a decade.

I encourage you to visit my web site and read my published articles. Please do not hesitate to send a private message if you need further clarification.

Wishing you every success in you training and practice,

aghast1
 
The take home message for me with this thread is: 250 cases/year makin' top coin, prolly minimal ,if any, medicare/private ins./medicaid and living in Southern Cali. Cash, check or credit card baby and lovin' it. Everything else is just noise... Kudos, Friedberg --keep on keepin' on! Regards, ---Zip
 
Barry, we all know TIVA is not the same as MAC. You are performing TIVA. We do this in a multitude of different settings. I've performed a wide variety and large number of TIVA cases on many different surgeries and patient populations from proctological exams to prone spinal neuromonitoring cases to minimal surgical/cosmetic procedures. And, I'm only a resident.

I will state again the following so it's clear to everyone:

(1) You are not doing anything unique or earthshattering.
(2) BIS monitoring does not guarantee you will have no awareness under anesthesia.
(3) A TIVA is a general anesthetic fraught with all of the potential risks and complications of any other general anesthetic. The fact that you are publicly and implicitly minimizing those risks, in my opinion, makes you at the very least a poor spokesman, or worse a danger, to our profession.

I have had patients puking their brains out after a "pure" ketafol anesthetic. I don't believe you are doing anything special, and there is certainly nothing compelling you to report "unexpected" outcomes or complications with your technique, if you can even admit that you've had any (which, based on previous posts, you can't or won't).

Furthermore, the fact that you are doing so few anesthetics a year makes me believe that you are probably not at the top of your game, as you perhaps mistakenly believe. Last year I personally provided over 800 anesthetics. That's roughly 65 per month. You freely admit you are doing less than 1/3 of that. And, if you're doing only 250 per year, you're either charging an outrageous amount of money for your services, or you are trying to profiteer from book sales and other sources of "extraneous" income.

I can only hope that you will shut up and go away, but I seriously doubt that will happen. So, instead I just keep my fingers crossed that once the dust settles, people will just simply ignore you.

-copro
😱

"..we all know TIVA is not the same as MAC. You are performing TIVA."

Sir, I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree. Don't let me confuse you with the facts as long as your mind is made up. The full mind has no room for knowledge.

IMHO, TIVA implies that the surgeon's local is not essential to the success of the anesthetic. MAC, as a poor descriptive term including all that is not GA, imparts significance to the role of adequate local anesthesia to success. Again, I am only in practice 30 years, so I could be mistaken on this point.

The conundrum for the surgeon is being asked to re-inject a vasoconstricted field. He says 'there was lidocaine in the syringe with epinephrine and I am staring at a blanched field. If I have epi effect, why don't I have lido effect?'

My answer is 'I don't know but I do know @ BIS 60-75, there is enough propofol effect. Please re-inject the field. This allows the surgeon to preserve his ego and the patient to derive the maximum benefit from adequate local analgesia.

"I've performed a wide variety and large number of TIVA cases on many different surgeries and patient populations from proctological exams to prone spinal neuromonitoring cases to minimal surgical/cosmetic procedures. And, I'm only a resident."

😱
an expert!

"You are not doing anything unique or earthshattering."👎

Been doing PK MAC since 1992 & MIA (BIS monitored PK MAC) since 1997. Heard this cry more than once. You have yet to produce anything to dispute my primacy of replacing diazepam with propofol and following Vinnik's paradigm: Hypnosis first, then dissociation.

"BIS monitoring does not guarantee you will have no awareness under anesthesia."

Please be kind enough to quote me if you insist on misstating my position.

Enkman et al 2004 paper only describes an 82% reduction in the incidence of awareness and I haven't promised anyone the remaining 18%. Most residents, to say nothing of attendings or lay people, get the difference between 'reduce' and 'prevent.'

My patients are not paralyzed (you know - room air, spontaaneous ventilation - RASV, no trademark🙂) and are capable of movement and speech. Awareness under anesthesia was never what attracted me to BIS.

Before your day, propofol was not generic.🙄 It was real expensive. $12-15 per 20 cc 1% bottle - I typically used 3 an hour pre-BIS and 2 an hour c BIS - even published statistical significance🙂 Now my offices pay about $2-3 per 20 cc bottle. BIS and subsequently, clonidine premedication were two methods by which I sought to reduce the cost of propofol while staying true to my technique, doing the best I could for my patients.

"A TIVA is a general anesthetic..."

At last we agree but disagree that PK (as I describe it) or MIA is MAC. Hint, the technique stinks s adequate local. BIS assures the surgeon can be educated for adequate local.

"The fact that you are publicly and implicitly minimizing those risks, in my opinion, makes you at the very least a poor spokesman, or worse a danger, to our profession."

You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree which is only one reason I regularly contribute to APSF.

"I have had patients puking their brains out after a "pure" ketafol anesthetic."

They say that repetition is the mother of learning, so here goes:

'ketafol' is a mixture of propofol and ketamine and would be properly described as TIVA.

MIA is propofol titrated incrementally to a specific, reproducible endpoint BIS <75. Ketamine is administered as a bolus and has a dissociative duration of 10-20 min. MIA = MAC.

"complications with your technique, if you can even admit that you've had any (which, based on previous posts, you can't or won't)."

Posted on my web site, published articles page:

Propofol-ketamine technique, dissociative anesthesia for office surgery: a five year review of 1264 cases. (article) Aesthetic Plastic Surgery 23:70,1999

duly reports on p 72:

"Five patients had nausea, and seven (0.6%) experienced emesis times one."

Again, I apologize for confusing you with the facts.🙄

From Propofol ketamine for cosmetic surgery in the office suite, chapter in Osborn I(ed): Anesthesia for outside the operating room. International Anesthesiology Clinics. Baltimore. Lippincott, Williams & Wilkins, 41(2):39, 2003:

"The MIA (TM) technique is not perfect but contextually nonemetogenic. Without any prophylaxis, this highest risk group experienced a total of thirteen PONV events (of 2,683 pts) for an unprecedented 0.5% PONV rate!"

More difficult facts to digest.

"Furthermore, the fact that you are doing so few anesthetics a year makes me believe that you are probably not at the top of your game, as you perhaps mistakenly believe."

I have had no contracts with my offices in the 15 years of this phase of my practice. My only job security is the service and outcomes I provide. When I was your age, I worked as hard if not harder than you. My vision for my professional life was not to have to continue to work in my 50s and 60s as hard as I was wiling to work in my 20s, 30s & 40s. My belief in my outcomes really doesn't matter. Only my offices who keep calling me to provide service matters.

"...trying to profiteer from book sales..."

You really hurt me badly, dude.🙄
Got my first royalty check the other day.
I think it figures out to be about 2 cents an hour for my three years' effort.

"I can only hope that you will shut up and go away, but I seriously doubt that will happen."

Right again. As long as our literature contains articles about PONV and postop pain management, my work is not done.

I do want to pay you a compliment.

You have conducted yourself in a manner befitting an educated professional in this post.

I am very proud of you.👍

Go forth and conquer your own world!

Your pal in SoCal,

aghast1
 
There is nothing to understand it's a description of your technique 😡

And you still haven't answered my question... 👎

Please have mercy on an aging anesthesiologist and repeat your question.

aghast1
 
The take home message for me with this thread is: 250 cases/year makin' top coin, prolly minimal ,if any, medicare/private ins./medicaid and living in Southern Cali. Cash, check or credit card baby and lovin' it. Everything else is just noise... Kudos, Friedberg --keep on keepin' on! Regards, ---Zip

Zip,

FWIW, I have not done a third party case since late 1991.
I have no billing or accounts receivable.
I have no contracts, no partners, no employees
No night or weekend call (OK, OK, once did a facelift on a weekend for an international pt.)
I do not give frequent flyer miles either. No credit cards.

My debt for medical school was $12K and was paid by 1981.
No kids to send to college.
No ex-wives to keep paying.

Admittedly, a very tough life watching the sun set behind Catalina Island but somebody has to take on the rugged assignment, I figure it might as well be me.😀

Seriously, I have been very fortunate in my professional and personal life. I never stop thanking the Lord for these blessings.

Thanks for recognizing how wonderful it is.


Your pal in SoCal,

aghast1
 
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Seriously, I have been very fortunate in my professional and personal life. I never stop thanking the Lord for these blessings.

:barf:

(Which is also what many of your patients probably do, more than you'll ever publicly admit.)

-copro
 
:barf:

(Which is also what many of your patients probably do, more than you'll ever publicly admit.)

-copro

see post # 78

or if you are too lazy:


icon1.gif

Posted on my web site, published articles page:

Propofol-ketamine technique, dissociative anesthesia for office surgery: a five year review of 1264 cases. (article) Aesthetic Plastic Surgery 23:70,1999

p 72:

"Five patients had nausea, and seven (0.6%) experienced emesis times one."

Again, I apologize for confusing you with the facts.🙄

From Propofol ketamine for cosmetic surgery in the office suite, chapter in Osborn I(ed): Anesthesia for outside the operating room. International Anesthesiology Clinics. Baltimore. Lippincott, Williams & Wilkins, 41(2):39, 2003:

"The MIA (TM) technique is not perfect but contextually nonemetogenic. Without any prophylaxis, this highest risk group experienced a total of thirteen PONV events (of 2,683 pts) for an unprecedented 0.5% PONV rate!"

More difficult facts to digest.😀


Have a nice day🙂

aghast1
 
People, take it easy on Aghast. Let him talk. Who knows, we may learn something from him. Maybe we can interest him on donating to the ASA PAC?
 
I think most people were put off by his website and advertisement/book. I wonder if the same people are put off by the same thing when other physicians advertise, like orthopods, plastics, bariatrics, ENT, Sports Medicine, the list goes on.

So what if he claimed to perfect something. We all know the truth, that many anesthesiologists are using very similar forms of anesthesia with probably equal results. Hell, I'll put my techniques up against anyone. Maybe mine will prove to be better and maybe they won't but I have a good idea what will show. Does it bother me if he claims better results, hell know. I would too.

I just can't believe the egos that some people have, to be offended b/c someone claims something. I give him credit. After all he works with the very type of physicians that advertise as well, why wouldn't he advertise?
😴
 
I think most people were put off by his website and advertisement/book. I wonder if the same people are put off by the same thing when other physicians advertise, like orthopods, plastics, bariatrics, ENT, Sports Medicine, the list goes on.

So what if he claimed to perfect something. We all know the truth, that many anesthesiologists are using very similar forms of anesthesia with probably equal results. Hell, I'll put my techniques up against anyone. Maybe mine will prove to be better and maybe they won't but I have a good idea what will show. Does it bother me if he claims better results, hell know. I would too.

I just can't believe the egos that some people have, to be offended b/c someone claims something. I give him credit. After all he works with the very type of physicians that advertise as well, why wouldn't he advertise?
😴

Upset by my web site? Heck, my web site traffic has doubled this month, much of the traffic from readers of this site.

No pay per view. No money for me. Why? To expose people to the notion that there is a better, safer, simpler anesthetic technique for elective cosmetic surgery.

The trademark also does not put a farthing in my pocket.

The book was solicited by Cambridge University Press, hardly a vanity publisher. If you had bothered to access the TOC on the web site, you would have seen that I contributed only 3 chapters of 18 and that it is a comprehensive text on the field. Hardly an advertisement.

When our literature publishes outcomes comparable to mine, I will cease and desist in my efforts to show a better way.

Speaking of literature, I learned only today that the Dec. 2007 issue of Anesthesia & Analgesia will contain the first review of my book.🙂 The editor has already given me permission to reprint it on my web site. Do I know what's in the review. Nope. Those who hope it will be panned, keep your fingers crossed.😛

"After all he works with the very type of physicians that advertise as well, why wouldn't he advertise?"

The not-so-subtle difference is that the surgeons are advertising for cases, I am not. I am advertising a simpler, safer, better alternative for anesthesia for cosmetic surgery. The web site is primarily designed to empower patients to know about this technique and ask for it. Maybe too subtle a distinction for this list.😱

Another beautiful Catalina sunset tonight.

Best regards,

aghast1
 
All I know is that this dude's website has some of the most hilarious items on a CV that I have ever seen.

I mean who includes this????

letter to editor in Outpatient Surgery Magazine...

"It never ceases to amaze me how many times patients remark that no one has ever bothered to numb their skin before IV insertion. My routine has evolved from using a 25g needle with plain lidocaine to using a 30g needle with lidocaine buffered with sodium bicarbonate to reduce the sting of the lidocaine. (Plain saline will also suffice.) We also now have the availability of EMLA cream and pressurized, needleless systems."


Wow, that was worthy of publication. I also enjoyed your new definition of GA..."GA is a state defined by bispectral index (BIS) values from 40 to 60 on a 100-point scale."

Really? Not even Aspect has the balls to claim that the BIS number defines what a general anesthetic is. From the same "article"...

"Since December 26, 1997, I have routinely monitored my patients with the BIS brain monitor. My patients have their propofol titrated between 60 and 75. This level of sedation is either moderate or deep sedation depending on whether passive or active airway intervention is required to maintain the airway. Clearly PK MAC sedation at BIS 60 to 75 is not GA at BIS 40 to 60! Patients receive the 'illusion' of GA (BIS 40 to 60) with the lesser trespass of sedation (BIS 60 to 75)."

So what exactly is passive or active airway intervention? I'll buy that perhaps sticking in a nose hose does not make it a GA, but if you are having to put in an LMA you are definitely giving a GA regardless of your BIS score.


Again from Outpatient Surgery Magazine...
"Re: “Preventing Surgical Fires” (December 2003). Your otherwise excellent story failed to mention the advantages of using BIS-monitored propofol ketamine (PK) anesthesia as a pre-emptive solution. Essential to PK technique, which provides the illusion of general anesthesia to the patient, is the avoidance of opioids, which eliminates the requirement of oxygen, an ignition source for fires."


So you can provide something other than a GA that involves airway manipulation and doesn't require oxygen? Are your patients just smoking a #4 on room air?


From Outpatient Surgery...

"Once you’ve observed loss of both lid reflex and verbal response, administer 50 mg ketamine bolus and wait 2-3 minutes before injecting the local analgesic. Without the BIS monitor, administer ketamine after loss of both lid reflex and verbal response. With BIS, wait until a level of 70-75 before giving the ketamine. “Think of propofol as the martini,” says Dr. Friedberg, “and ketamine as the olive.”"

What? You're basically admitting that your patients are nonresponsive but spontaneously breathing and that's not a GA? I can do the same thing with a mask and 4% sevoflurane and I don't think I'd get away with calling it anything other than a GA.



You are certainly free to practice anesthesia however you so choose. However, your claims regarding your technique border on ridiculous across the board. I mean a PONV rate of essentially zero? Not happening, and I use plenty of regional techniques with no opioid. No oxygen required? Unlikely in most scenarios, particularly when sedated. And did I read correctly that you don't even have an anesthesia machine in the room? Interesting choice.


Congrats on the website, though, looks like you spent some money on having it designed well.
 
"Since December 26, 1997, I have routinely monitored my patients with the BIS brain monitor. My patients have their propofol titrated between 60 and 75. This level of sedation is either moderate or deep sedation depending on whether passive or active airway intervention is required to maintain the airway. Clearly PK MAC sedation at BIS 60 to 75 is not GA at BIS 40 to 60! Patients receive the 'illusion' of GA (BIS 40 to 60) with the lesser trespass of sedation (BIS 60 to 75)."

So what exactly is passive or active airway intervention? I'll buy that perhaps sticking in a nose hose does not make it a GA, but if you are having to put in an LMA you are definitely giving a GA regardless of your BIS score.

What? You're basically admitting that your patients are nonresponsive but spontaneously breathing and that's not a GA? I can do the same thing with a mask and 4% sevoflurane and I don't think I'd get away with calling it anything other than a GA.

You are certainly free to practice anesthesia however you so choose. However, your claims regarding your technique border on ridiculous across the board. I mean a PONV rate of essentially zero? Not happening, and I use plenty of regional techniques with no opioid. No oxygen required? Unlikely in most scenarios, particularly when sedated. And did I read correctly that you don't even have an anesthesia machine in the room? Interesting choice.

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!! Despite the ludicrous claims that a BIS # indicates general anesthesia (it doesn't!!) someone has finally pointed out that loss of protective airway reflexes goes past the level of even deep sedation and enters the realm of GA. If it quacks like a duck.....
 
All I know is that this dude's website has some of the most hilarious items on a CV that I have ever seen.

I mean who includes this????

letter to editor in Outpatient Surgery Magazine...

"It never ceases to amaze me how many times patients remark that no one has ever bothered to numb their skin before IV insertion. My routine has evolved from using a 25g needle with plain lidocaine to using a 30g needle with lidocaine buffered with sodium bicarbonate to reduce the sting of the lidocaine. (Plain saline will also suffice.) We also now have the availability of EMLA cream and pressurized, needleless systems."


Wow, that was worthy of publication. I also enjoyed your new definition of GA..."GA is a state defined by bispectral index (BIS) values from 40 to 60 on a 100-point scale."

Really? Not even Aspect has the balls to claim that the BIS number defines what a general anesthetic is. From the same "article"...

"Since December 26, 1997, I have routinely monitored my patients with the BIS brain monitor. My patients have their propofol titrated between 60 and 75. This level of sedation is either moderate or deep sedation depending on whether passive or active airway intervention is required to maintain the airway. Clearly PK MAC sedation at BIS 60 to 75 is not GA at BIS 40 to 60! Patients receive the 'illusion' of GA (BIS 40 to 60) with the lesser trespass of sedation (BIS 60 to 75)."

So what exactly is passive or active airway intervention? I'll buy that perhaps sticking in a nose hose does not make it a GA, but if you are having to put in an LMA you are definitely giving a GA regardless of your BIS score.


Again from Outpatient Surgery Magazine...
"Re: “Preventing Surgical Fires” (December 2003). Your otherwise excellent story failed to mention the advantages of using BIS-monitored propofol ketamine (PK) anesthesia as a pre-emptive solution. Essential to PK technique, which provides the illusion of general anesthesia to the patient, is the avoidance of opioids, which eliminates the requirement of oxygen, an ignition source for fires."


So you can provide something other than a GA that involves airway manipulation and doesn't require oxygen? Are your patients just smoking a #4 on room air?


From Outpatient Surgery...

"Once you’ve observed loss of both lid reflex and verbal response, administer 50 mg ketamine bolus and wait 2-3 minutes before injecting the local analgesic. Without the BIS monitor, administer ketamine after loss of both lid reflex and verbal response. With BIS, wait until a level of 70-75 before giving the ketamine. “Think of propofol as the martini,” says Dr. Friedberg, “and ketamine as the olive.”"

What? You're basically admitting that your patients are nonresponsive but spontaneously breathing and that's not a GA? I can do the same thing with a mask and 4% sevoflurane and I don't think I'd get away with calling it anything other than a GA.



You are certainly free to practice anesthesia however you so choose. However, your claims regarding your technique border on ridiculous across the board. I mean a PONV rate of essentially zero? Not happening, and I use plenty of regional techniques with no opioid. No oxygen required? Unlikely in most scenarios, particularly when sedated. And did I read correctly that you don't even have an anesthesia machine in the room? Interesting choice.


Congrats on the website, though, looks like you spent some money on having it designed well.

Dude,

Very pleased you took the time to read my thoughts and share your response with the list.

Cognitive dissonance is when you read or see something that is so at variance with your belief system that you cannot accept it. You are a classic case. Many share your skepticism even after they witness the technique first hand. First question - what was the trick? - what did you give that we did not see?

"All I know is that this dude's website has some of the most hilarious items on a CV that I have ever seen.

I mean who includes this????

letter to editor in Outpatient Surgery Magazine..."


Sorry to burst your bubble, but my CV is not posted on my web site. If you would like a copy, I 'd be happy to email it to you.

The page to which you refer is the 'Doctors Only' page which lists some of my publications. The page does not say peer-reviewed or scholarly publications, just 'publications.'

Outpatient Surgery Magazine is a trade journal devoted primarily to managers of outpatient facilities. Since you read it, I am very happy to have reached you.

" I also enjoyed your new definition of GA..."GA is a state defined by bispectral index (BIS) values from 40 to 60 on a 100-point scale."

"...your patients are nonresponsive but spontaneously breathing and that's not a GA? "

You missed this previous post or chose to ignore it:

From Anesthesia in Cosmetic Surgery Cambridge University Press 2007
Chapter 1 Propofol ketamine with bispectral (BIS) index monitoring,

Table 1-4 BIS Level of Sedation/Anesthesia

98-100 Awake
78-85 Minimal sedation ('anxiolysis')
70-78 Moderate ('conscious') sedation
60-70 Deep sedation
45-60 with systemic analgesia General anesthesia
<45 OVERDOSED

Minimally invasive anesthesia(MIA)® is BIS 60-75 or moderate to deep sedation with adequate local analgesia.

Non-responsiveness with the dissociated state in my paradigm is limited to 10-20 minutes. After that, the patients responsive to painful stimuli.

This non-responsiveness does not extend to the glottic chink. Saliva on the cords will provoke laryngospasm, not aspiration. That's the basis for the routine glycopyrrolate prior to induction.

"So what exactly is passive or active airway intervention?"

The ASA talks about 'intervention' (moderate sedation) and 'assistance' (deep sedation) in their description of levels of sedation/anesthesia but doesn't define those terms. I at least attempted to.

Passive airway intervention (for moderate sedation) includes head positioning (facelift position - head extended and rotated laterally) and placement of a 1,000 cc IV bag under thee patient's shoulders. Both maneuvers increase the force on the genioglossus muscle, maintaining a patent airway.

Active intervention include the insertion of a SUPRA-glottic device to maintain the airway. Could be a nasal airway, oral airway, or (gasp) yes, an LMA.😱 If BIS doesn't drop into the 45-60 range and no systemic analgesia is given, its sedation, not GA.

Also, you missed (or chose to ignore) "If you need to call MIA to get paid, by all means do so with my blessing" in another previous post.

"if you are having to put in an LMA you are definitely giving a GA regardless of your BIS score."

You sound like a shill for the AAAASF, the plastic surgeon's certifying body.

If the BIS doesn't go below 60 with the insertion & maintenance of MIA, it is still sedation, not GA. Sorry, dude, I will have to politely disagree with you.

"You are certainly free to practice anesthesia however you so choose."
I am overwhelmed by your graciousness and generosity.:barf:

"I mean a PONV rate of essentially zero? Not happening..."

Maybe not in your practice.

My patients will complain if their IV insertion hurt. Have you always used a 30G needle for the skin wheal prior to IV insertion?

Cosmetic surgery patients are also not shy in reporting PONV in the least nor are my nurses or surgeons. Unlike your institutional practice, there is no place to hide from one's outcomes in an office based practice.

Published in Dermatol Surg 0.6% PONV in 1,264 pts. & in Internat Anesthesiol Clin 0.5% in 2,683 pts. Both references appear in my CV. I guess you missed them.

If you follow my paradigm, you, too, will reproduce an essentially zero PONV but you obviously prefer cognitive dissonance.

Just because you don't understand the paradigm shift, doesn't make it untrue or non-reproducible.

FWIW, my book was just reviewed in A&A Dec. 2007 issue. I received permission from Dr. Shafer (editor-in-chief) to reprint it for my well designed web site. It should be up tomorrow along with today's press release.

Here is the concluding paragraph:

The text (Anesthesia in Cosmetic Surgery) is a suitable addition to the library of those who anesthetize patients for cosmetic surgery. The reader is urged to use the described techniques as guidelines rather than de facto rules and to disregard the bravado of the editor (my italics). Also, keep in mind that the dosage guidelines for local anesthetic are "generous." Putting these issues aside, the textbook serves as a useful primer in the practice of anesthesia for cosmetic surgery and deserves a place on one’s sub-specialty bookshelf.(my bold)

The review also states that I am a 'self promoter.'😱

What do you think was said about Drs. Morton & Wells in 1846? (Hint: you know the ether & nitrous public demonstrations in Boston)

Probably that they were self-promoters.

How about Archie Brain and his LMA?

Another self-promoter.

In fact, I think anyone who has offered the profession something new, different, safer and better has to endure the sobriquet of 'self-promoter.'

Would it help you if I repeated "Gentlemen, this is no humbug."😀

"No oxygen required? Unlikely in most scenarios, particularly when sedated."

My patients are ASA 1 & 2 who receive an incremental propofol induction with 83 micrograms per (mini)drop titrated to BIS < 75. That is one drop from a 5mg/cc propofol infusion bag with a 60 gtts/cc IV set. Numbers for pumps are available in my book, Ch. 1, Table 1-6 Clinical pathway.

Oxygen is rarely required in my paradigm because of minimal trespass to the patient. Like 'MIA.' Less is more. Don't slam dunk the pts. to sleep and you can do this, really.

Just because you can't do this, doesn't make it unachievable.

It appears the US military doesn't have a problem reproducing this approach in the field hospitals in Iraq & Afghanistan. see Anesthesia in Cosmetic Surgery Ch. 7 PK beyond cosmetic surgery: implications for military medicine & mass-casualty anesthesia. They have adopted my technique because they don't need an anesthesia machine or large quantities of O2 and, of course, because it's simpler and safer.

As far as you and your posting buddy that followed, if you don't want to replicate my outcomes, it will not affect me one iota. However, it will affect your patients, surgeons, nurses, and maybe even your pocketbook.
The choice is completely yours.

I wish you every success in your practice(s).

Best regards from SoCaal,

aghast1
 
I don't know about PONV, but I'm feeling nauseated after reading all this...
 
I don't know about PONV, but I'm feeling nauseated after reading all this...

Excellent! The fact that you read puts you in the upper third of your medical school classmates.😱


aghast1
 
Excellent! The fact that you read puts you in the upper third of your medical school classmates.😱


aghast1

you definitely win for the most thinly veiled snarky comments in a thread.😀


another beautiful west virginia mountain sunrise.😍

yours for continued success in snarkiness, 😱

trisomy13
 
The text (Anesthesia in Cosmetic Surgery) is a suitable addition to the library of those who anesthetize patients for cosmetic surgery. The reader is urged to use the described techniques as guidelines rather than de facto rules and to disregard the bravado of the editor (my italics). Also, keep in mind that the dosage guidelines for local anesthetic are "generous." Putting these issues aside, the textbook serves as a useful primer in the practice of anesthesia for cosmetic surgery and deserves a place on one’s sub-specialty bookshelf.(my bold)

The review also states that I am a 'self promoter.'😱

What do you think was said about Drs. Morton & Wells in 1846? (Hint: you know the ether & nitrous public demonstrations in Boston)

Probably that they were self-promoters.

How about Archie Brain and his LMA?

Another self-promoter.

In fact, I think anyone who has offered the profession something new, different, safer and better has to endure the sobriquet of 'self-promoter.'

Would it help you if I repeated "Gentlemen, this is no humbug."😀

Tap the brake a little bit there. Something tells me your name is not going to be enshrined in the Wood's Library of Anesthesia for your description of a room air general. I guess I really don't get what it is that you think is so novel about what you are doing that warrants a thread this long, a website, and multiple letters to the editor to trade journals. It is nice to be confident...I guess.
Looking forward to a beautiful sunset only slightly obstructed by my obese neigbor bending over to pull weeds.
your bro in a camaro
Gern
 
Tap the brake a little bit there. Something tells me your name is not going to be enshrined in the Wood's Library of Anesthesia for your description of a room air general. I guess I really don't get what it is that you think is so novel about what you are doing that warrants a thread this long, a website, and multiple letters to the editor to trade journals. It is nice to be confident...I guess.
Looking forward to a beautiful sunset only slightly obstructed by my obese neigbor bending over to pull weeds.
your bro in a camaro
Gern
I think you need to send your neighbor to get liposuction under minimally invasive anesthesia. 😀
 
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Tap the brake a little bit there. Something tells me your name is not going to be enshrined in the Wood's Library of Anesthesia for your description of a room air general. I guess I really don't get what it is that you think is so novel about what you are doing that warrants a thread this long, a website, and multiple letters to the editor to trade journals. It is nice to be confident...I guess.
Looking forward to a beautiful sunset only slightly obstructed by my obese neigbor bending over to pull weeds.
your bro in a camaro
Gern

Gern,

"Something tells me your name is not going to be enshrined in the Wood's Library of Anesthesia..."

Maybe not, but my book Anesthesia in Cosmetic Surgery is already there.😀

"...a room air general."

I guess you missed the multiple previous posts, so let me repeat it one more time v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y:

If you need to bill my technique as GA to insure getting paid for your work, go right ahead with my blessing.

MIA is a MAC because it requires adequate local analgesia for success.

The 10-20 minutes of dissociation from the 50 mg ketamine dose does not constitute systemic analgesia because one cannot carry the patient on propofol only for remainder of the procedure if the local is inadequate or the patient experiences pain.

Those who mix the ketamine (or remifentanil or alfentanil) with the propofol are giving continuous systemic analgesia and NOT depending on adequate local analgesia.

TIVA is GA because it does NOT require adequate local for success.

"I guess I really don't get what it is that you think is so novel about what you are doing that warrants a thread this long, a website, and multiple letters to the editor to trade journals. It is nice to be confident...I guess."

Two guesses makes it a multiple guess question.🙄

What is so novel about what I am doing is my paradigm (hypnosis first, then dissociation) & my outcomes (i.e. 0.5% PONV in a high risk group* that received NO anti-emetics).

*non-smoking females, with prev. hx. PONV or motion sickness, having emetogenic surgery (i.e. cosmetic) of 2 or more hours duration.

Prior to my deleting diazepam and substituting it with propofol (1992), there was nowhere in the literature one could go to learn if propofol hypnosis was in any way different from diazepam hypnosis in terms of protecting patients from hallucinating successfully.

Hypnotic doses of propofol block ketamine induced hallucinations. (letter) Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery 91:196,1993.

Now I don't know what you were doing in 1993 (and don't really care) but I was trying to solve a problem in an office based setting that did not want either opioids or inhalational anesthesia to be used for elective cosmetic surgery.

Most anesthesiologists were not practicing in surgeons' offices in 1993 and those that were did their very best not to advertise their presence there.

Also, in 1993, any anesthesiologist advocating the use of ketamine in adults was viewed with great suspicion and considered a kook.

In case you don't know how to recognize a pioneer, he is the one with the arrows in his back.😱

FWIW, ketamine was still popular in children's burn units for dressing changes.

"...multiple letters to the editor to trade journals."

Actually, the tally is something like 30 letters to the editor, 14 articles and 6 book chapters.

In the peer reviewed category, there are:

Hypnotic doses of propofol block ketamine induced hallucinations. (letter) Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery 91:196,1993.

Dissociative monitored anesthesia care not cited. (letter) Anesthesia and Analgesia 86:1336,1998.

Counterpoint: sedation and anesthesia in the office setting. (letter) Aesthetic Surgery Journal 19:51,1999.

Another perspective on PONV. (letter) Anesthesia & Analgesia 89:1589,1999.

Nonopioid analgesia improves outcomes. (letter) Anesthesiology 93:582,2000.

Counterpoint: postoperative nausea and vomiting. (letter) Aesthetic Surgery Journal 20:490,2000.

A role for the anesthesiologist in elective cosmetic surgery? (letter) Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery 111:953,2003.

A role for the anesthesiologist in elective cosmetic surgery
(part II) ? (letter) Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery 111:1365,2003.

Hypnosis first, then dissociation. (letter) Anesthesia & Analgesia 96:911,2003.

Incomplete guidelines. (letter) Anesthesia & Analgesia 98:550,2003.

Standards and credibility. (letter) Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery 112:1489,2003.

Paradoxical increase in pain requirements with midazolam premedication. (letter) Anesthesia & Analgesia 99:1268,2004.

Liposuction “Conscious Sedation” Monitored Anesthesia Care and Level of Consciousness Monitoring. (letter) Aesthetic Plastic Surgery 29:59,2005.

Inaccuracies and omissions with the report of the ASPS Committee on Patient Safety Practice Advisory on Liposuction. (letter) Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery 117:2142,2005.

Safety and efficacy of sedation anesthesia for breast augmentation. (letter) Aesthetic Surgery Journal 25:385,2005.

Propofol-ketamine technique. (article) Aesthetic Plastic Surgery 17:297,1993.

Friedberg BL: Propofol-ketamine technique, dissociative anesthesia for office surgery: a five year review of 1264 cases. (article) Aesthetic Plastic Surgery 23:70,1999.

The effect of a dissociative dose of ketamine on the bispectral (BIS) index during propofol hypnosis. (article) Journal of Clinical Anesthesia 11:4,1999.

Facial laser resurfacing with propofol-ketamine technique: room air, spontaneous ventilation (RASV) anesthesia. Dermatologic Surgery 25:569,1999.

Clonidine premedication decreases propofol consumption during bispectral (BIS) index monitored propofol-ketamine technique for office based surgery. (article) Dermatologic Surgery 26:848,2000.

FYI, 50% of all published articles are never subsequently cited.
My articles have been subsequently cited in 54 articles and in 14 textbooks. There is a reason that 'semen' is part of the word 'seminal.'

These are the peer-reviewed, index medicus journals only.
Chapters and books don't 'count' because they are not peer reviewed.

If the check the sub-specialty anesthesia practice chapters in Miller, I believe the count is something like 26. Nothing about cosmetic or plastic surgery anesthesia as a sub-specialty.

"I guess I really don't get what it is that you think is so novel about what you are doing that warrants..."

I have stood on Vinnik's shoulders (FWIW, I cite him in every publication of mine) and created a paradigm that did not exist before and has reproducibly produced better outcomes that have been published, in particular for PONV.

Further,in doing so, I have created a body of literature that did not exist before me.

Cynics will say that is only proof that paper does not refuse ink.🙄

But a cynic is only one who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Yours for better and reproducible outcomes,

aghast1
 
Aghast1,

I have some questions/comments, but first let me say this, that I disagree with some posts about condemning you for using the same technique on everyone. There is a great book called "Complications" written by a surgeon about this very topic. It is such a great read and I hope all that see this post seek it out (although it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, just that it is a great book and one thing he talks about is repetition in medicine to cut down on complications - doing the same thing over and over). I'm glad you posted, you have remained calm despite the fact that everyone here actually knows who you are. I always find it funny when people get pissed at other people's ramblings since we are all anonymous and who knows if we are even in the field of medicine in the first place, we could be a plumber calling an anesthetic technique crazy.

Anyway - 1. I read your article about BIS and Ketamine, and I don't think it answers the fundamental problem that ketamine does to the BIS. As a frequent user of ketamine, I have noticed that ketamine locks your BIS around 60-75, no matter how much propofol you are using, and your article does not address this problem. My point is that one has no idea what the "true" BIS value is when ketamine is onboard. There are many articles that point to this fact. I don't want to site them all because I am lazy but do a pubmed search on ketamine and BIS and find a myriad of articles stating this fact. Here is a conclusion of one of the many articles I looked at "CONCLUSIONS: Ketamine administered under sevoflurane anaesthesia causes a significant increase in BIS, RE and SE without modification of the RE-SE gradient. This increase is paradoxical in that it is associated with a deepening level of hypnosis." Your BIS is absolutely useless once ketamine is onboard. Do the search and read the hundreds of articles yourself if you disagree.

2. I'm not very smart, so I need things explained to me like I am 10 years old. Are you saying that drug dosing should be based on receptor density in the body? Wow! I have always believed (since I was taught this by people I THOUGHT knew what they were talking about) that drug dosings (mg/kg) were based on the properties of the drug such as metabolism, volumes of distribution, etc. I seriously have never read that receptor density had anything to do with dosing. This may be in the newest addition of Goodman and Gilman's book. I have an older edition I used in med school. I'll take a look at it if I ever see it.


Third, and again, I'm a dummy so explain this clearly. You say that ketamine mixed in a syringe of propofol is different than giving ketamine in a syringe by itself and propofol in a syringe by itself? Could you explain this a little more? Does the mixing change pH of one of the drugs so it effects the receptors differently?

4. I think you explained previously but this post is so damn long I can't remember - anyway, could you explain again why you were so concerned about trademarking an anesthetic technique? As you have said many times, you aren't in it for the money, you are about patient safety, etc. The truth is, I have used PK many times and never heard of you, so clearly the fact that you trademarked this technique is not getting you the recognition you might deserve. Would you encourage people that were the first to use desflurane with sufenta, or sevo with cisatricurium, or remifentanil with propofol, (or any number of combination anesthestics that work great together) to seek trademarks for their contribution to anesthesia? If so, why, if not, why is your combination deserving of a trademark, yet the guy who first used precedex with an etomidate induction is not?

Fifth - remember I'm 10, so answer clearly. Are you saying that if a patient moves when the surgeon cuts, meaning that he requires local, then that is considered NOT under general anesthsia, but if the patient does not move when the surgeon pokes, sticks, or cuts, then that is general anesthesia?

Finally, I just wanted to say that I love ketamine and think it is a great drug when used properly. One of my favorite articles about the use of ketamine is

"Balanced analgesia' in the perioperative period: is there a place for ketamine?

Authors: De Kock M.1; Lavand'homme P.; Waterloos H.

Source: Pain, Volume 92, Number 3, June 2001 , pp. 373-380(8)"

In this article, they say that even 6 months out, patients that had ketamine had less incisional pain and hyperalgesia around the wound. I think it is pretty good proof of pre-emptive analgesia, and even better proof that everyone deserves a little vitamin K.
 
Aghast1,

I have some questions/comments, but first let me say this, that I disagree with some posts about condemning you for using the same technique on everyone. There is a great book called "Complications" written by a surgeon about this very topic. It is such a great read and I hope all that see this post seek it out (although it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, just that it is a great book and one thing he talks about is repetition in medicine to cut down on complications - doing the same thing over and over). I'm glad you posted, you have remained calm despite the fact that everyone here actually knows who you are. I always find it funny when people get pissed at other people's ramblings since we are all anonymous and who knows if we are even in the field of medicine in the first place, we could be a plumber calling an anesthetic technique crazy.

Anyway - 1. I read your article about BIS and Ketamine, and I don't think it answers the fundamental problem that ketamine does to the BIS. As a frequent user of ketamine, I have noticed that ketamine locks your BIS around 60-75, no matter how much propofol you are using, and your article does not address this problem. My point is that one has no idea what the "true" BIS value is when ketamine is onboard. There are many articles that point to this fact. I don't want to site them all because I am lazy but do a pubmed search on ketamine and BIS and find a myriad of articles stating this fact. Here is a conclusion of one of the many articles I looked at "CONCLUSIONS: Ketamine administered under sevoflurane anaesthesia causes a significant increase in BIS, RE and SE without modification of the RE-SE gradient. This increase is paradoxical in that it is associated with a deepening level of hypnosis." Your BIS is absolutely useless once ketamine is onboard. Do the search and read the hundreds of articles yourself if you disagree.

2. I'm not very smart, so I need things explained to me like I am 10 years old. Are you saying that drug dosing should be based on receptor density in the body? Wow! I have always believed (since I was taught this by people I THOUGHT knew what they were talking about) that drug dosings (mg/kg) were based on the properties of the drug such as metabolism, volumes of distribution, etc. I seriously have never read that receptor density had anything to do with dosing. This may be in the newest addition of Goodman and Gilman's book. I have an older edition I used in med school. I'll take a look at it if I ever see it.

Third, and again, I'm a dummy so explain this clearly. You say that ketamine mixed in a syringe of propofol is different than giving ketamine in a syringe by itself and propofol in a syringe by itself? Could you explain this a little more? Does the mixing change pH of one of the drugs so it effects the receptors differently?

4. I think you explained previously but this post is so damn long I can't remember - anyway, could you explain again why you were so concerned about trademarking an anesthetic technique? As you have said many times, you aren't in it for the money, you are about patient safety, etc. The truth is, I have used PK many times and never heard of you, so clearly the fact that you trademarked this technique is not getting you the recognition you might deserve. Would you encourage people that were the first to use desflurane with sufenta, or sevo with cisatricurium, or remifentanil with propofol, (or any number of combination anesthestics that work great together) to seek trademarks for their contribution to anesthesia? If so, why, if not, why is your combination deserving of a trademark, yet the guy who first used precedex with an etomidate induction is not?

Fifth - remember I'm 10, so answer clearly. Are you saying that if a patient moves when the surgeon cuts, meaning that he requires local, then that is considered NOT under general anesthsia, but if the patient does not move when the surgeon pokes, sticks, or cuts, then that is general anesthesia?

Finally, I just wanted to say that I love ketamine and think it is a great drug when used properly. One of my favorite articles about the use of ketamine is

"Balanced analgesia' in the perioperative period: is there a place for ketamine?

Authors: De Kock M.1; Lavand'homme P.; Waterloos H.

Source: Pain, Volume 92, Number 3, June 2001 , pp. 373-380(8)"

In this article, they say that even 6 months out, patients that had ketamine had less incisional pain and hyperalgesia around the wound. I think it is pretty good proof of pre-emptive analgesia, and even better proof that everyone deserves a little vitamin K.

"...using the same technique on everyone"

It's safer, simpler and it works for all cosmetic cases known to man as well as a host of other non-cosmetic cases.

"I'm glad you posted, you have remained calm despite the fact that everyone here actually knows who you are."

Thanks. After 15 yrs. of criticism and flames, it takes a great deal more than offered here is hack me off. You should only have read the stuff blown my way on the GASNet. You might have thought I was advocating pederasty or something even worst.

"despite the fact that everyone here actually knows who you are."

And here I thought I was being so coy with the name 'aghast1.' 😀

"I have noticed that ketamine locks your BIS around 60-75, no matter how much propofol you are using, and your article does not address this problem."

That was back in 1999. I'll have to re-read it. Nonetheless, the best I can recall is that I was trying to answer criticism that the use of ketamine invalidates the use of BIS to titrate propofol. My answer: no it doesn't.

"My point is that one has no idea what the "true" BIS value is when ketamine is onboard."

I would agree IF you are mixing the two drugs. I am not. I believe I have a very good idea what the BIS value is during dissociation and afterwards on straight propofol. My outcomes are congruent with this belief.

"CONCLUSIONS: Ketamine administered under sevoflurane anaesthesia causes a significant increase in BIS, RE and SE without modification of the RE-SE gradient. This increase is paradoxical in that it is associated with a deepening level of hypnosis." Your BIS is absolutely useless once ketamine is onboard."

Can't speak to the issue of ketamine under sevo. Never used the stuff.

A 50 mg dissociative dose of ketamine did not affect BIS in my paper.

BIS/EMG is very useful in my paradigm.

"Are you saying that drug dosing should be based on receptor density in the body? Wow! I have always believed (since I was taught this by people I THOUGHT knew what they were talking about) that drug dosings (mg/kg) were based on the properties of the drug such as metabolism, volumes of distribution, etc. I seriously have never read that receptor density had anything to do with dosing."

I am saying that ketamine dosing is not dependent on body weight.😱 Heresy.

Remember I make no claim of science. I am but a simple clinician trying to do the best he can for his patients.

I have observed the same dissociative effect with 50 mg ketamine in 90 pound women and 250 pound linebackers and concluded that body weight can't have much to do with the dissociative effect.

Further, I hypothesize that the number of NMDA receptors in the mid-brain and spinal cord must not correlate with body weight.

If the NMDA receptors are saturated, the pt., remains immobile for the injection of local anesthesia. (N.B. This is the state of dissociation not general anesthesia. It is evanescent, expiring in 10-20 min.) One does have to differentiate between spinal cord generated movement and that generated by higher centers. EMG will aid you in this task.

If an arm or a leg moves a bit when the local is injected and EMG remains at 'zero' (zero on BIS but 30 on EMG for those who look right on the screen), then no additional dose of ketamine is needed.

If mvt. occurs with an EMG spike, stop injecting and give another 25-50 mg dose and wait another min. before resuming injection. Time spent here is returned with better, pain free emergence.

"I seriously have never read that receptor density had anything to do with dosing."

Me too, but that does not make it a less true based on my observations.

If you have a different thought to explain my observation, please feel free to share it here.

FWIW, 80% of adults can be dissociated with a 25 mg dose but there is no downside to going for 98% with a 50 mg ketamine dose. Less tiresome than re-medicating 20% of your pts. too.

"...ketamine mixed in a syringe of propofol is different than giving ketamine in a syringe by itself and propofol in a syringe by itself? Could you explain this a little more? Does the mixing change pH of one of the drugs so it effects the receptors differently?"

pH is not the issue.

Vinnik's paradigm was hypnosis first (with diazepam), then dissociation. Can't do that with a mixture of prop & ket. Remember you can't realistically measure benzo with BIS.

Remember, hypnotic doses of propofol block ketamine hallucinations.
If you want to remain popular where you provide anesthesia, you best not have any side effects with ketamine. The drug has a well earned bad reputation.

My propofol is diluted to 5 mg/cc and is given through a 50cc bag spiked with a 60 drop per cc IV set. About 83 mikes per minidrop. Very hard to render pts. apneic this way but still possible if you become impatient and crank open the drip. 2-3 min typical c clonidine premed.

Propofol is titrated to BIS <75, then the 50 mg ketamine is given.

In this way, you may confirm on a daily basis what I published in 1999; i.e. that a dissociative dose of ketamine does not substantially change the BIS values.

If, on the other hand, you administer a mixture, you never really know what you are measuring and more importantly, you never knoww if thept. is lying still because of the saturation of NMDA receptors or the synergy of the two drugs.

Further, giving the mixture continuously deprives you of the ability to know that your ketamine effect is gone. FWIW, pts. emerge much better if the last ketamine dose is no closer than 20-30 min to the end of surgery.

Another consideration is the aggregate dose of ketamine. I found that >200 mg is not good for emergence. It is easier (for me) to keep track of the aggregate ketamine dose when given separately. FWIW, I believe (no personal experience) it is also easier to exceed this limit when one keeps refilling with a pk mix.

Interestingly, the US Army is doing 'cranies' with propofol, ketamine & remifentanil TIVA. But after my talk @ Brooke, they only use 100 mg for the younger pts. and 50 mg ketamine for the > 50 yo.

"explain again why you were so concerned about trademarking an anesthetic technique?"

Trademarking is about intellectual property and is very different from patenting which is what Morton & Wells tried to do in the 1800s.

Asa you may have observed, many are loathe to give credit where credit is due. I.e. plastic surgeons and Klein's solution. Yes, aqueous solutions were used before Klein to hydrodisscet tissue planes but that was never applied to dilute lidocaine for liposuction.

I am simply saying I used the expression 'minimally invasive anesthesia' to essentially describe 'Goldilocks' anesthesia - not too much, not too little but just right. Just as my fetish with PONV rates was established before most anesthesiologists accepted the notion that this outcome might be important (duh). I am saying my claim is to have not only improved on Vinnik's paradigm but to have done so with an instrument that many anesthesiologists still resist using. Just as PONV rates are now recognized a something to try to improve, research will someday establish in most anesthesiologists' minds that Goldilocks is a better paradigm than routinely overdosing to assure we are not underdosing.

All I ask with the trademark is to be giving credit for innovating the expression as well as improving the paradigm for better outcomes.

I got excited because I thought the title of the article had overwhelming logic: 'minimally invasive anesthesia' for minimally invasive surgery. Unfortunately, cosmetic surgery in its entirety is not viewed by most as minimally invasive surgery. All cosmetic surgery takes place outside the body cavities. We are dealing with skin and fat and rectus sheath imbrication, none of which requires GA with relaxants.

Can't do this reproducibly without a level of consciousness monitor and no competitors to BIS have published superiority to BIS.

"...why is your combination deserving of a trademark, yet the guy who first used precedex with an etomidate induction is not"

It is not simply the combination but the vision (and primacy) to improve Vinnik's paradigm (hypnosis first, then dissociation) and couple it with technology (BIS/EMG) not widely accepted by our people.

"...if a patient moves when the surgeon cuts, meaning that he requires local, then that is considered NOT under general anesthesia, but if the patient does not move when the surgeon pokes, sticks, or cuts, then that is general anesthesia?"

aghast1 def. of GA - BIS 45-60 with systemic analgesia.

The first stimulus of the surgeon in my world is the injection of local to obtain vasoconstriction and bonus analgesia. Dissociation blocks the noxious signals from reaching the pt.'s brain. NO input, no response.

Since the dissociation, prep and drape will generally consume more than the 10-20 min. the 50 mg ketamine buys you. If the cut stimulates the pt. @ BIS 60-75, he does need more local.

At the cut, pt. is being carried on propofol alone.

If the pt. does not move when cut after being injected it is still not GA because there is no analgesia save that of the local.
No systemic analgesia is being given, just propofol, hypnotic devoid of analgesia.

Hope that answers your questions.
If not, keep posting.

aghasti
 
Wow, long thread for such a stupid topic. Yes, I use prop/ket. Learned that one as well as giving lidocaine before an IV during my first week of residency. I also use roc, etomidate, fentanyl, etc.; I also intubate people, and use a fiberoptic scope when necessary, and do nerve blocks, and make important decisions about how to best tailor an anesthetic to a specific patient having a specific operation, and know how to deal with (and have the proper equipment available to deal with) complications if they arise even though they are not expected. Since most of the readers of these forums are anesthesiologists in training my only addition to this thread is that if this type of anesthesia excites you, you should've went to SRNA school and saved yourself some expense and training years.