Larkin University COP

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by 297point1, Sep 6, 2013.

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  1. Sine Cura

    Sine Cura 10 seconds or less 7+ Year Member

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    At least I am a PharmD. I actually don't care about new schools (what naive students do or don't do is none of my concern) . But if I am a "hypocrite" and a back-biter for pointing out the obvious, so be it. It's like this is the first time you've been on an Internet forum.

    Why does the state do anything? Everyone's a leech. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Self-make yourself into oblivion.

    Here's another "obvious" one. Your user name is an out-an-out lie (first graduating class c/o 2019?) although it is aspirational. Murica
     
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  3. Dred Pirate

    Dred Pirate 2+ Year Member

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    for someone who called other posters out for perceived personal attacks, that personal attack was completely inappropriate. I enjoy my job and am very successful.

    I never asked if your 60 grads were the reason for the current glut - I asked if you feel adding 60 more grads will make it better or worse - answer that question honestly.
     
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  4. Dred Pirate

    Dred Pirate 2+ Year Member

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    for the life of me I thought this was a employee of the school - not a student
     
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  5. gwarm01

    gwarm01 7+ Year Member

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    Just another know-it-all student that thinks they are more qualified to speak about the profession than practicing pharmacists. It sounds like Larkin is serving some extra flavorful Kool-aid.
     
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  6. stoichiometrist

    stoichiometrist 5+ Year Member

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    I hope Larkin pays the student a stipend to come here to advertise and get roasted by us. Otherwise, the student will be inadvertently be working for free paying tuition to help sell the school.
     
  7. MindGeek

    MindGeek 7+ Year Member

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    So lack of interprofessional collaboration is causing these deaths, not factors like lack of communication, long duty hours, lack of failsafes/system failures, inadequate supervision, lack of training/re-training, etc.?
    Please post the attritition rate after year 2. You have only had two P&T/D&D type classes yet, and they are easy therapeutic areas compared to what's coming.
    Here's the Year 1 Schedule (Spring+Fall):
    • Intro. to Pharmacy
    • Medicinal Biochemistry
    • Molecular Biology and Genetics
    • Pharmaceutics I & II
    • Ethics and Law
    • Medicinal Chemistry I & II
    • Self-Care
    • IPPE I & II
    • Pharmacokinetics
    • Respiratory Disorders
    • Endocrine and Metabolic Disorders
    So 62 people are paying $17,864 for P1 Sem. 1, $17,864 for P1 Sem. 2, $8932. for P1 Summer, $4615 in fees for P1, $22,000 for P2 Fall, $22,000 for P2 Spring, and $3175 in P2 fees, all out-of-pocket or with private loans?

    How come P2 year jumps up by $4136/semester? It's like they know they are going to be able to administer federal loans and increase their tuition for that privilege. Classy how they pass through professional liability insurance to you.

    Lastly, how come they do not have tuition posted for APPE year? Have they not decided yet, or are their not enough preceptors and sites to offer such a year? No one on this forum is going to believe that Larkin is going to give each of their students 42 complimentary credits.
    Great point @hiremeresidency2017 . If schools are successful in placing graduates at all the nearby hospitals, why should they create their own? And if they did, wouldn't they be better suited for starting residencies that are more aligned with what they actually do? For a free-standing school without it's own hospital for example, they would be better for creating residencies in ambulatory care, since a large constituency of their faculty are split between amb. care sites and the school, or academia/administration residencies, both of which are likely PGY-2 anyway.
    I truly hope these students do not advocate as successfully for both PGY-3 and tuition-paid-to-the-hospital PGY-1s, just to expand the number of Larkin-associated residencies on the book.
     
    Pharmd = Phake Doctor likes this.
  8. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Just pointing out the obviously. Sorry that truth can hurt.
    It is absolutely aspirational, is self-making your self into oblivion the same as self deporting yourself?
     
  9. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    It's amazing how you can be so closed minded that you cannot bear the concept of an opposing view and have to ascribe some kind of ulterior motive or cognitive impairment. Maybe you are drinking the establishment Kool-aid and are too narrow minded.
     
  10. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Sorry, but not sure I understand. CMS covers about 50% of the cost of PGY-1 costs. We think that we can sell an argument to hospitals that pharmacy residents can help decrease readmissions and easily cover the other half. The specialty residents (beyond 1 year) are more challenging because CMS reimbursement is not there. Advocating to CMS to cover some of the cost would go a long way into helping create more opportunities. Now, you seem to imply that if the College of Pharmacy is willing to pay the hospital's for some post graduate slots there would be something inappropriate about that? Not sure I understand your point. Please expand.
     
  11. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Actually the data points to lack of communication amount health professionals as the main factor.
    Keep in mind that that's half a million people dying at US hospitals annually, not a small number by any means. More than lost in Iraq, 911, etc...lack of communication is the same as lack of interprofessional collaboration. Long duty hours are not big issue since ACGME is enforcing strict 80 hour rule and many scholars think it's an exaggeration.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  12. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Would be happy to. Stay tuned.
     
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  13. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    I thought this was supposed to be a forum to express opinions. You guys seem to be upset because people disagree with you. No one is getting roasted here, I actually enjoy your attention.
     
  14. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Wasn't meant as a personal attack, just an observation. Most of your posts are very negative about being a pharmacist. You complain about the pay, etc...I am glad you are happy and successful. Hopefully you won't be too upset if others want access to the club.
     
  15. Saiyo

    Saiyo 7+ Year Member

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    Pharmacists become good through experience, not through education. There's no good or bad schools, just good or bad students.

    Alot of my prior classmates came from unimpressive educational backgrounds but were able to excel when given the opportunity.

    I think it's unfortunate that as pharmacists we are driven to hate new entries into our workforce, but at the same time we feel the pressure on our hours, pay, and quality of life.

    These new schools are obviously here to moneygrab under the pretense of "serving underserved areas" or "advancing pharmacy practice," but I think it's pretentious to hate on students who really just want to make a better life for themselves.
     
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  16. Dred Pirate

    Dred Pirate 2+ Year Member

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    they do NOT pay 50% of the costs - they reimburse you for the time spent direct teaching - which will vary drastically from rotation to rotation. I know if I am spending 50% of my time directly teaching a resident - there is a major problem - that means I am making up for something they missed in pharm school. 25% is a more realistic number.
     
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  17. Dred Pirate

    Dred Pirate 2+ Year Member

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    tell me once where I complained about my pay? I get paid a lot - I mentioned salary in FL was 20% lower (that and many other reasons, made me not want to move there)
     
  18. Dred Pirate

    Dred Pirate 2+ Year Member

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    for some reason I thought it was employee of the school - that is why I called them out - if I knew it was a student, I would have ended at something to the effect of good luck getting a job - and I would recommend you go a different route for a profession.
     
  19. MindGeek

    MindGeek 7+ Year Member

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    I apologize for oversimplifying. The impending mandatory PGY-1 for health system practice, out-of-pocket tuition to the hospital for PGY-1, and paid PGY-3 are all in alignment of making students education longer, and shifting expenses away from the schools and hospitals onto the student.

    I was referencing tuition from the student to the hospital offering the PGY-1 residency. As in the student paying for their own residency training. There was mention of it during an AACP Annual Meeting. With ASHP pushing for all pharmacists involved in direct patient care to complete an accredited residency, the number of programs will have to increase. ASHP set a goal of having all entry-level pharmacists completing a PGY-1 before entering a hospital or health system by the year 2020, but has not made any mandates as such. The prospect of graduates writing a check for 40k+ may be enough to convince hospitals to start taking on pharmacy residents, or expand the number they take on. There was an opinion piece in AJHP from two fellows of ASHP that gained some traction, suggesting that PGY-3s are essential, but these naturally require more PGY-1 programs to funnel up. Again, making PGY-1s pay for their residency would free up funds for paid PGY-3 residencies (PGY-2 residencies which would still remain paid). PGY-3 issues were covered in this thread.
    ACGME does not have jurisdiction over pharmacy residents and their residency directors. Just as ASHP doesn't have jurisdiction over medical residents and the physicians who supervise them. Not all medical errors are made at the physician or medical resident level. Anyone involved in patient care can cause a medical error.
     
  20. gwarm01

    gwarm01 7+ Year Member

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    Oh, I'm not being close minded. I'm being realistic. I have the benefit of experience. I was told many of the same things you were when I was in pharmacy school. The academy has been talking about provider status, collaborative practice, MTM, expanding clinical services and the works for well over a decade. This IS the establishment line of thinking. Can you show any substantial evidence that Larkin has contributed in any meaningful way towards achieving these goals? The current federal provider status bill has been lingering in congress since before Larkin accepted it's first round of students. You aren't telling us anything we don't already know. We are the people who have been on the front lines of pharmacy and have fought to push it forward.

    Sorry if I come off as hostile, but your responses have been very confrontational and defensive. I do hope you have good luck in your career. As someone who has lived in South Florida and worked for one of the large hospitals you mentioned earlier, I know first hand just how difficult the job market is in the area. I remember when your professors first came to our hospital to find rotation sites. In an area where people are struggling so hard to find employment, the absolute last thing we needed was another for-profit institution to open another pharmacy school. Your professors may sugarcoat it and make it sound noble, but this was an attempt to make money and nothing else. There was no need for this school and it is the new graduates who are going to suffer the consequences.

    You may not like what I have to say, but that is my opinion on the matter. Don't forget what you said to me.. "It's amazing how you can be so closed minded that you cannot bear the concept of an opposing view."

    Oooofffff... I'm going to be sick. Talk about underselling the worth of your education or your ability to adapt and learn as a pharmacist. Reminds me of a PGY1 resident who was considering a PGY2 just because he didn't feel ready to take on a staffing job. At some point you have to take off the training wheels and step up. People are putting the cart before the horse with this training. Graduating PGY3 pharmacists won't magically manifest some sort of amazing clinical job, it will just raise the bar for our entry-level positions.

    Not to mention the slap in the face to take 4 years of pharmacy school and 3 years of residency and still have less authority than a PA with 2 years of school.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  21. stoichiometrist

    stoichiometrist 5+ Year Member

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    Hence why you're getting roasted here. Yes, you are getting roasted.
     
  22. lord999

    lord999 Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Sigh, no, CMS funds absolutely 0% of pharmacy residencies unless they are direct residents of the HHS White Oak campus. There's history about this.

    Anyway, feels like HICP, doesn't it?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
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  23. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    OMG Yes! I was just thinking the same thing.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using SDN mobile
     
  24. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Got it, but the way DME works is that you add the total direct costs, including resident's stipend, plus supervising faculty/program director time divided by the hospital's medicare %. If the hospital's Medicare % is 100% then CMS would be 100% of the costs. However, most hospitals have 50% or less, so they can expect to get back about half the actual costs. I think the only thing we need to sell to the hospital is that PGY-1 residents probably earn the rest of the cost either by service provision or through performance improvement activities
     
  25. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    CMS pays DME for PGY-1 and there is no cap. It doesn't make sense that hospitals would charge for PGY-1, they would be double dipping. I don't think it's legal. If ASHP is serious about setting residency goals the place to start is with advocacy to get CMS to treat Pharmacy residencies the same way they treat medical residency, by covering both DME and IME, which would more than cover the cost.
    The professional responsable for medical errors are not pharmacists. All data points to physician miscommunication as the culprit.
     
  26. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Not trying to argue but, our school, Larkin University is a not-for-Profit. Sorry if I came across as defensive, it's just that it felt like everyone was trying to "roast" us as one of the SDN elegantly put it. Frankly, putting aside whatever philosophical differences of opinion we may have about new Colleges of Pharmacy, this is very personal to me and my classmates at Larkin University College of Pharmacy. We want to succeed and some of the vitriol and negativity in this forum is disappointing.
     
  27. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Lol, Feels like elementary school all over again. Also, not sure what your definition of roasted is, but if you think you are critizing or reprimanding me severely, I don't think so...forums are supposed to be of exchanging points of view and information, but I guess you prefer the less mature approach.
     
  28. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Are you sure about that? I am pretty sure that the PGY-1 slot at Larkin is being funded by CMS.
    Sorry for my ignorance, what is HICP?
     
  29. stoichiometrist

    stoichiometrist 5+ Year Member

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    Let's be honest here. When you put up a new pharmacy school in one of the most saturated areas of the country, others won't take kindly to it. The new school is one of many that are contributing to the downfall of the profession by accepting and graduating students with <2.5 GPAs, <30 PCAT, and no work experience who got in primarily because they're wiling to sign away $200k+ in private student loans. Regardless of your and your classmates' intentions, realize that your school's #1 goal is to make money.
     
  30. BMBiology

    BMBiology temporarily banned~! 10+ Year Member

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    It doesn't matter if it is a for-profit or non-profit university. Its goal is to make money. If they can charge you an extra penny, then they would.

    Every university talks about training the next generation of pharmacist but 70%+ of the jobs are in retail while 20% are hospital jobs but many of them are outpatient or staff pharmacist jobs (very similar to retail).

    It is your life. If you decide not to go, then another student will take your spot but you gotta be honest with yourself. Don't eat it all up like most pharmacy students. The reality is cold and difficult to swallow, and it is often very different from what your school is telling you.




    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
     
  31. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    An infamous example of a school ripping off their students. They never got candidate or even pre-candidate status for their school and all their students lost all the time and money they had invested by going there. It was by any measure a total scam and sadly they swindled many students out of quite a bit of money.

    The part most relevant to this discussion is there was a student from that school that valiantly tried to defend HICP on SDN right up until the end. I am sad to say you sound a lot like that guy. Obviously I hope it turns out better for you than it did for him. I bet someone here has a handy link to that thread if you are interested in seeing it for yourself, or you can just search this forum for 'HICP'.
     
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  32. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    I see. Well, we were all at the ACPE visit and we got pre-candidate status and we know we are getting candidate status in July. Larkin University is backed by a hospital system, with 3 hospitals. Not the same thing.
     
  33. stoichiometrist

    stoichiometrist 5+ Year Member

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    HICP defender(s) thought their school was fine and dandy until the very end. You won't know what the school is hiding from you, or you might have already seen the writing on the wall but are in denial.
     
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  34. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    I sincerely hope it is not the same thing. I don't know what it means for a school to be backed by a hospital system, but just the fact that y'all have pre-candidate status puts you in a different league than HICP. But HICP students also "knew" they were going to get candidate status and that did not end well for them. I am not trying to fear monger here, I suspect y'all will get candidate status just fine, but you/your school really do remind us old-timers of the whole HICP fiasco.
     
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  35. hiremeresidency2017

    hiremeresidency2017

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    Can someone please clarify for me. What does a hospital system with the same namesake as your school have to do with your COP? I come from a large state university with a large academic medical center. We have some students doing rotations there, and a lot of our professors work at the hospital but if one goes down it doesn't mean the other will, correct? (I'm not worried, just trying to understand ^ that argument)
     
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  36. lord999

    lord999 Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    No, CMS cannot legally fund outside DGME and IME, due to old arrangements with the field (there are a couple of exceptional situations like dentists training in Surgery due to cranial/maxilofacial surgery, but in general they are all medical residencies). The profession had its chance years ago, but our organizations blew it due to greed among another venalities. Clinical pharmacy has not gone more or less anywhere since Don Franke in 1970s. Clinical pharmacy is still paid out of the operational budget, no clinical pharmacist can support themselves solely by CPT workload at this time independently from some institutional funding, and the majority of pharmacists work in operational positions (dispensing and order processing) even today. CMS is not interested in increasing their program, funding for even raising MD/DO caps at an institution is now fairly competitive and there are even cut programs due to revenue shortfalls (Radiology seems to be the biggest victim of this at present).

    Also,CMS DGME NEVER funds 100% of any medical residency unless it is a very particular circumstance (internal HHS or really hard to fund areas). They require that some matching contributions and if the institution cannot do this, then CMS will not fund on grounds that there is not enough institutional support for the residency. It is quite possible that your tuition dollars are subsidizing this. The formula is actually much more complicated than the above. That's a fairly good approximation, but there are required co-funding activities that have to be shared by the institution.

    Also, that cannot be true for the VA; we do not sponsor Larkin in the same way that we do not officially sponsor any school in any training program. We explicitly do not "sponsor" schools due to the way the Office of Academic Affiliations works. We make partnerships, but it is against both our philosophy and our practice to take a direct hand in overseeing training. That authority was stripped from us during WWII.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
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  37. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Thank you for the historical context, very interesting background.
    Actually, Larkin has 21 CODA Accredited Advanced Education in General Dentistry slots, which are funded by IME CMS dollars, it's not enough to cover salary for the residents, but at least it's free of tuition. The residents are assigned to various FQHCs in Florida.
    I doubled checked again with the CFO at the hospital and he said that Larkin does get CMS support for its PGY-1 Pharmacy residency. It only covers 50% of the costs but he feels the hospital gets the other 50% in service and the resident's involvement in PI acvitities. He is actually putting together a plan to expand the number of slots at Larkin South campus, and start a new program at Larkin Hialeah Campus.
    He also said that the State of Florida is also funding $80,000,000 for residency programs at hospitals but Pharmacy and dental are excluded. Maybe some lobbying at the State level would help?
     
  38. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Our College of Pharmacy is part of Larkin University, which is a 501-c3, not for profit, and also has a School of Nursing, a Biomedical Sciences program, and soon a Charter middle school for the Health Sciences etc...It is separate from the hospitals, which are for profit. This is very common in the industry, many not for profit hospitals have for profit arms, but to answer your question the finances are separate and other than start up funding (which was provided by the hospitals) each institution is separate. Not sure if that answers your question
     
  39. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    A similar movement is going on out there with for profit Colleges of Medicine, similar to the Caribbean schools. Lots of private equity companies getting involved with a 5 year horizon to flip.There should be a requirement that these colleges have to be not for profit. I know our College of Pharmacy is not for profit by choice, but this was not required by ACPE. There are a couple Colleges of Pharmacy out there that are for profit
     
  40. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Honestly, haven't seen any writing on the wall other than commitment on everyone's part, from the hospital leadership to our faculty. They look like they really thought this out and planned if for years. Our founding Dean was hired 6 years ago. I would be the first critic if I perceived anything different.
     
  41. MindGeek

    MindGeek 7+ Year Member

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    Their commitment is to attract more tuition-paying students, and grow their residency program to carry 3 PGY-1s year-round to eliminate one FTE pharmacist. You're undertaking a huge amount of effort for their benefit. Part of creating an accredited residency is that it is open to anyone who matches. Larkin grads will not have preferential treatment going into PGY-1 (they would between PGY-1 and PGY-2 though). Someone from NSU or FAU could easily steal that extra Larkin PGY-1 slot or two you create in time. By sheer numbers NSU grads have a better chance of getting those slots (240 vs. 62). Give up on this, even if you are student body president, unless it is a paid position (it actually was at NSU, at least for undergrads).
     
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  42. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Larkin grads have preferential treatment over any other grads.These are Larkin pharmacy residency programs, and our College of Pharmacy is involved in their creation and administration. What you are saying makes no sense. Why would larkin give preferential treatment to an NSU or FAU grad?
     
  43. MindGeek

    MindGeek 7+ Year Member

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    Forgive me, I wrongly assumed that these new residencies would be ASHP accredited. My point was that the Larkin residency director could give Larkin grads perfect scores and rank them the highest, but the algorithm still chooses everyone fate, and could let anyone become their new resident. If they are not going to be accredited residency spots than by all means discriminate against non-Larkin grads. Good luck getting a PGY-2 and PGY-3 without an accredited PGY-1 though.
     
  44. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member SDN Administrator 7+ Year Member

    Let's be realistic though, how often would the algorithm do that? If Larkin rates their own grads the highest (or only ranks Larkin grads), what are the odds others will get those spots? Now I am not saying Larkin will actually do that (presumably they will want the best candidate regardless of what school they attended) but if they do rank their own grads preferentially than presumably that will be reflected in who is selected for those spots.
     
    LarkinpharmD likes this.
  45. MindGeek

    MindGeek 7+ Year Member

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    Go ahead and enable @LarkinpharmD . Once Larkin folds every new Larkin pharmacy resident will be a non-Larkin grad. Hope the financing on that 48 acre, $68 million campus project doesn't fall through. I mean sure, the $5 million from the County Economic Development Fund paid off the $4.2 million to Wells Fargo for the seized land, but you can't build a new pharmacy building for 800k. Also, wasn't Larkin Health Sciences Institute going to wait until the Naranja campus was topped off to change the name to Larkin University?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
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  46. Given that this @LarkinpharmD keeps on espousing the virtues of "clinical pharmacy" and "expanding pharmacists roles", who thinks this sucker has never worked a day in his life in a real pharmacy?
     
  47. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    The PGY-1 is accredited.
     
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  48. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Wow!
    I guess the old adage about how ignorance is civilization's worst enemy is highlighted by your comments above. You take a bunch of unrelated facts and make a bunch of unwarranted assertions and somehow make a totally reckless and irresponsible argument. Larkin will not fold.
    The current location of our College of Pharmacy does not require additional financing.
    Larkin College of Pharmacy is already self sustaining.
    The $5M infrastructure grant is provide after construction is completed.
    The first building that will go up in the Naranja campus is the Middle School.
    Etc, etc, etc. It is clear that your only interest is in misrepresent and defame. Shame on you.
     
  49. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    No need for personal insults. This is supposed to be a professional forum.
     
  50. This is a free country pal. To paraphrase you "thank god we live in the United States of America" were I can use the freedom of speech to call out an idiot like you.

    Do you actually believe all the claims you've made in your posts? Do you not realize that every singe claim you have made about Larkin has been made by every single pharmacy school in the country? You're not that stupid are you?

    And answer the question buddy. Have you or have you not ever worked in a pharmacy?
     
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  51. LarkinpharmD

    LarkinpharmD

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    Thank you, exactly my point. Bottom line is: if the faculty at our College of Pharmacy os involved in the selection process they would naturally be biased to their own graduates.
     

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