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Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by 297point1, Sep 6, 2013.
No personal insults please. Keep it classy.
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60 more Rphs is 60 more jobs needed in an already specialized and saturated market. This is 60 every single year. Let's assume the other 6 schools in Florida are churning out 100 grads each (low estimate). That's 600. Adding 60 more is a 10% imcrease. So for every 10 jobs, one of those is going to be taken up by one of your grads. That is a significant blow to other shools and other grads. This will lead to cut hours, depressed wages, and more abuse of job seekers with less benefits.
Yes, we know the current PGY-1 program is accredited. You were talking about creating new PGY-1 residencies, exclusive to Larkin grads. It's odd that they haven't updated their listing on ASHP since at least 1/24/14. Also, their own site for it is under construction, just like the middle school.
The existing PGY-1 program at LCH accepted its first resident in 2014. You will graduate in 2019. You think that after 5 years of accepting non-Larkin grads the residency director and pharmacy director are going to turn away other grads just so that they can say they took on a Larkin grad? The Larkin loyalty of the residency director and pharmacy director is to the for-profit Larkin Community Hospital and their motivation is to make their job and the other preceptors' and pharmacists' jobs easier not harder just for the sake of an anecdote that they took on one of Larkin's grads. Larkin University is a separate, not-for-profit, entity that will be 17.5 miles away. As @owlegrad said, sure they could rank Larkin grads higher, but will they? Also, will the most competitive grads out of Larkin even rank LCH as their number one? It's a match based on an algorithm, not early assurance.
Great point @Pharmd = Phake Doctor . If you want the residency and pharmacy director to take notice, work there as a intern, and do IPPE and APPE rotations there. If they still deny you a residency, at least you have built your skill set, and can take those skills to another hospital's residency program. The directors are investing in you. Don't expect them to let you give you preference because you went to Larkin. Let them rank you number 1 because they spent time and effort training you, and they don't want their investment walking out the door for a competing hospital.
Totally agree that in order to be competitive we need to show the pharmacy director how we differ from any other candidate. No argument there.
Will point out the issue of updating the listing on ASHP. I know the residency program was started around that time. Thank you for pointing that out.
LOL. If you think I'm cynical, then you've never seen how doctors act in private (and by doctors, I mean the real ones, the MDs and DOs). They would never tolerate the vapid snake oil your school is selling. Being 'cynical' has allowed the physicians to maintain salary and job growths that pharmacists can only dream of. And yes, the constitution allows me to say anything anywhere, barring the few exceptions defined by the supreme court.
No one with a spine actually believes that opening up a new school of pharmacy (AKA Larkin) is going to create a group of out-of-the-box thinkers who will revolutionize the pharmacy field. Grade inflation peaked 10 years ago. Do you actually think students who cannot get A's or B's on a simple, dumbed-down MCQ exams and cannot even get a 3.0 GPA are somehow going to revolutionize this profession?
People who are financially savvier (and smarter) will likely go to a cheaper state school where they will get the EXACT SAME EDUCATION as your overpriced diploma mill. They'll graduate with less debt for the same credentials and better networks than people coming out of a small private school.
We've heard the vapid fluff you've been spewing from the other greedy schools like Chapman. Chapman needed to open a school to produce a new breed of clinical pharmacists. Chapman needed to open a new school to serve Orange County. Chapman needed to open a school because old schools couldn't contribute to the 'evolution' of the pharmacy profession. Chapman needed to open a school to advocate the expansion of MTM. Etc. There's always some altruistic motive when a new school decides to charge students exorbitant amounts of tuition.
Guess what? My BFE state school was able to stop the opening of another pharmacy school in our state. Thanks to their effort, students fresh out of school can get inpatient hospital positions without a residency and in some parts of our state, they can get $140K salaries with a sign-on bonus to work retail. So it does pay to protect your own profession. So yes, I actually like my BFE, red-state, Trump-voting school because it had the will to defy the national trend of opening pharmacy schools left and right. And added plus is that it is one of the cheapest schools in the nation (well below 100K in total costs).
You always hear people say that the role of the pharmacist must evolve and change. Why do you think that is? The dispensing role of a pharmacist is critically important, and yet you constantly see people trying to downplay the significance of it. A dispensing pharmacist is a need-to-have, while a clinical pharmacist is a nice-to-have. We shouldn't be so quick to toss aside our traditional roles or give those responsibilities to others. I know plenty of people like tech-check-tech, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea because, if nothing else, it gives our duties away to someone else.
Your assumptions are incorrect. But I guess you have no problem with Trump University. Talk about a diploma mill that didn't even get Accredited as a Univeristy in the first place.
Read my previous post. I never claimed to vote Republican. And what is that to you? There are plenty of doctors, pharmacists, and nurses who are. You may despise them, but from what I've seen, plenty of them aren't dumb enough to take out excess loans to go to some fruity private school (unless their parents pay for it).
Read my post carefully, and you realize that what I said is: my public university in a BFE red-state is cheaper, better managed, and more conscientious of our profession than some stupid, out-of-touch private pharmacy school run by "pharmacists" who have never worked a day in their lives in a real pharmacy.
In fact, I abhor private schools because they are financial ripoffs that only benefit the schools who open them. So tell the wall-flower professors at Larkin to keep on role-playing some midlevel provider role that no one wants.
You don't know any of these people to make the assumptions you are making.
They are a lot smarter than someone who voted for Trump and is proud of it.
You must have a lot in common with his base support group.
I hate trump and didn't vote for him but agree with @Pharmd = Phake Doctor The people on this board have much more experience than you - most of us were in your place once and had pie in the sky ideas - then realized when you get into the real world, things change.
Back to the PGY-1 residency - Larkin students will not be guaranteed spots there unless the residency is run by people who have zero desire to actually advance their residency. Every hospital that is associated with a pharmacy school that I know of, specifically go out of their way to enhance diversity and NOT rank their school's applicants high.
Here is an example - from the "number 1 pharmacy school" for whatever basis you put in those rankings
Our Residents | UNC Medical Center, Hospitals – Chapel Hill, NC
LOL. This is supposed to be a counter-argument?
When did I ever make any claims to being a Republican buddy? Did you assume that because I've repeatedly stated that I live in a red state and because I've set my location as "Trump-voting, gun-toting red state"?
And someone voting for Trump automatically doesn't make them stupid. Only a fragile-minded person would think that. I've worked with a bunch of right-wing doctors who've done more to treat patients than the bozos who call themselves "doctors" at your School of Pharmacy.
Knock it off with the personal attacks please. This is a professional forum, please act professionally.
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Thank you for sharing the link. Very useful info.
We are putting a focus group together at our school to look into expanding post graduate opportunities in a similar manner. Reimbursement is the most tricky part. Any additional pointers would be appreciated.
I interviewed with Larkin because my GPA wasn't quite there to meet most pharmacy school standards. (I fooled around and dropped out to enlist before coming back to complete my bachelors and taking school seriously) but 3 things set off red flags.
1. They practically begged me to come. I didn't complete psychology, statistics and economics yet they still offered me a conditional letter of acceptance upon completion for the class of 2020. (If an applicant doesn't meet the requirements, you don't bring him to interview, let alone accept him)
2. They are in it for the money. During the interview they thoroughly explained how file a credit app and how to bypass the objection if lenders brought up the concern it's not an accredited school. I told Larkin I'm a veteran and had GI benefits yet they kept pushing me to take out private student loans from Sallie Mae. I don't know if they cut a deal, but they were pushing them on me pretty aggressively.
3. They aren't even accredited as an institution for higher education let alone a ACPE status. To top it off the school LITERALLY took over the now defunct for-profit Corinthian College campus which now has a Larkin waterproof canvas tarp to cover the old logo. (google it if you don't believe me)
I don't know if it was the weather that day or what it was but Larkin really rubbed me the wrong way. If you got accepted anywhere else, the choice is a no-brainer.
so did you put in a deposit?
Of course! They said that 37 cents and a pop tart was okay for now. And that the financial aid office was working on learning how to process my GI benefits into Monopoly money. How could I resist?
In all seriousness, I'm not stupid. I got accepted to an accredited school with a real campus (Larkin didn't even have a functional pharmaceutics lab as of April when I interviewed) and I'm glad I'm going somewhere else.
You might want to keep the following websites bookmarked. The VA does have a list of institutions of postsecondary education that they will pay for, and if you go to a school that is not on the list, the likelihood that you will actually get reimbursed is very low. Larkin is not on that list, which is why they did the hard sell.
Education and Training Home
GI Bill Comparison Tool: Vets.gov
One other matter that you might want to know if you're planning on using GI Bill benefits. VA has an open and notorious reputation for being late with payments and refusing to pay late payments (that they themselves have caused). I would recommend you keep some reserve cash on hand to pay the semester or year and get the money back from them (as screwed up as that sounds).
This makes for an interesting OAA issue though for VA. My memory is that the standing policy does not allow us to affiliate with an institution that is not qualified to receive GI Bill benefits. Maybe this is a loophole for VA, but there's one way to find out!
Thanks but no thanks. I like the school I'm in now. Three year program or not, I want to return to Navy as a Naval pharmacist and collect pension after I put in my years of service even if it means being in school for 4 years. Larkin doesn't even register on DoD's radar and I wouldn't be able to apply for the HSCP and I'm not willing to bet my future on a school like that. I want to be respected in my profession and for that I need to go to a school that knows what it's doing.
I'm just glad I found this forum to reaffirm my suspicions.
Oh, I'm not a fan of the school either, sorry if I gave that impression. I just wanted to point out that Larkin gave you the hard sell, because they couldn't accept GI Bill funds, which makes them suspect (the bar being set so low in the first place). If you are going back into the Navy, I consider them to be the best branch about actually supporting their pharmacists through a career.
Thanks brother. I'm actually a marine and I have some buddies who are hospital corpsmen. But I wanted to share my experiences on interviewing with this school because I know I'm not the only one who thinks something smells fishy about Larkin.
My conclusion: It's an incomplete school that rushed to get a school open in the Miami-Dade area. Non-functional pharmaceutics lab was asking a lot for me to overlook. It preys on the desperate and accepts applicants who have nowhere else to go, yet dream of pharmacy school in three years. If you didn't get in anywhere else, wait a year (improve GPA or retake PCAT) to apply to a reputable school. And that's the bottom line.
My jaw dropped when I read posts about and by Chapman's program; now, reading "Larkin" my jaw is on the floor, scrapping up the dirt and bateria left by a million shoes.....
Good luck to you. But you don't need to trash anyone.
You say your GPA wasn't quite there to meet most pharmacy school standards yet you also say that you got accepted to an accredited school.
You say that they practically begged me to come. You didn't complete psychology, statistics and economics yet they still offered me a conditional letter of acceptance upon completion for the class of 2020. Yet you got accepted by an accredited school. Why did they bring you to interview and accept you?
You say that They are in it for the money. Because they thoroughly explained how file a credit app. But they didn't even accept you. Conditional acceptance is not acceptance.
Finally you inaccurately state that Larkin doesn't have ACPE status. That is simply not true. Larkin just got Candidate Status and is on target for full accreditation.
I don't know why taking over a building operated by a trade school somehow is a problem.
I don't think the quality of the pharmacists trained at Larkin should depend on a sign or a building. It's the great faculty who came from other schools that makes it a great institution. Not the building, not the signs.
I am an entering P2 at Larkin and I love it. We have the best faculty. So, good luck to you but don't trash our school. We are happy and proud to be here
Not everything with Larkin was bad. It is a 3year program with a block schedule, the tuition was reasonable and their plan for expansion was aggressive.
But many things felt poorly planned or rushed. The MMI interview felt like the professors we're trying to impress me as opposed to the other way around, it's in a pretty ghetto part of Miami, the campus/facility was not finished, and having full accreditation as opposed to being a candidate status is a big difference. And you can't deny without full accreditation, it's not a complete school.
Best wishes on your success, but I had options to go to other institutions than Larkin.
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Conditional acceptance is acceptance. You just can't deviate from what's agreed upon.
Wait-listed is not acceptance.
Thank you for your wishes and I wish you a great career in pharmacy.
Conditional acceptance is acceptance only if certain conditions are fulfilled. Obviously, this candidate must have had some qualifications since he was eventually accepted at another school.
Not sure what revelance wait listing has on the conversation.
Everyone's acceptance is conditional, if you insist on making a distinction without a difference.
I must know one thing. And can you be honest? What was your first choice school?
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@SSJH5862 had enough qualifications to get accepted into both schools.
He just had qualms with Larkin's program so he ultimately chose the other school.
My only choice was Larkin. Actually, what attracted me to the Larkin program was that it was the only 3 year program in Florida. I figured if I work the 4th year I can start my career debt free.
Also, I live in Miami, not too far from the school. Lastly, I like the fact that the faculty, like the students they select, reflect the ethnic composition of the county.
Since you're back on here... I have now first-hand witnessed that hospitals in south florida have WAY TOO many students. We're talking 6-10 students PER PRECEPTOR per month. This is absolutely absurd, and these hospitals are now registering to be precepting your students on rotation. Please tell me how this can possibly enrich the learning environment for the old students and for yours. I don't see how these schools don't see this.
Less students are applying to pharmacy school, more pharmacy schools are opening, standards are decreasing, more students crowding on rotations, less quality rotation experiences, more competition in the workplace post-grad, lower pay.
PharmacyThisWeek: Guest post from Ryan Schell, PharmD Re the Pharmacist Job Crisis
Jesus, that's a lot. Having 3 felt like a lot on one of my rotations. I wonder if the students actually learn anything.
honestly - nope - There is only one reason to see this type of pilling up this number on a single preceptor - $$. If it is a shared faculty, it keeps the money in house to pay for their salary. At my hospital we never have more than 1 students per preceptor. once or twice a year there will be a student + resident, but that is the max. That tells you were their priorities are.
I thought ACPE limited the preceptor to student ratio to 2:1? Or is that a guideline and not a hard and fast rule?
I don't doubt it. How much do programs get paid to precept students?
And Owlegrad, I wonder if its a hard and fast rule. We never had more than 2 students on rotation at a time for me but I'm not sure if it's a rule. I know my school intentionally did that though because I can't imagine having any more students with me.
anywhere from 400-1000 a student per month
Guideline nationally, though used to be a fast rule in FL in the same sense of intern supervision limitation (that's why there's old competition between UF and Florida A&M over Shands) until about two-three years ago. There were exceptions for "academic" rotations, but the standard Inpatient Practice and Ambulatory Practice were supposed to conform to the oversight limits because if an intern screwed up, it meant that the supervising preceptor screwed up. But when monitoring more interns now than ever, would you ever let them practice under supervision?
But pharmacists are clearly panopticon qualified to oversee unlimited numbers of debt prisoners now, so those limits have been relaxed.
Ah yes, I actually recall when they raised the limit to "unlimited". Although I will admit I saw plenty of flouting of the old limit anyway, not unlike how easy it is to find flouting of the tech:rph ratio. :eyeroll:
It's tempting to engage... but I am going to pass...
The area just got hit by a hurricane is probably flooded... don't kick a man when he's down.
Yeah but... "The manager of a Florida nursing home where eight people died following Hurricane Irma has a history of health-care fraud accusations. Federal court records show the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Miami filed civil charges in 2004 against Dr. Jack Michel and Larkin Health Systems, among others."
Manager of nursing home where 8 died has been charged before
Wow, I'm late to this um, entertaining thread.
I completely agree. Team-based learning is used when professors are too lazy to do their job. In my experience, it means a few people end up doing all the other work, and the other students party on and get the same grade. Socialism at its finest.
Seriously? Asking a question is the "very definition of discrimination?" Or did he err by assuming your species when he said "you guys." I mean everyone knows that "guys" is used to refer to a group of humans, regardless of gender.
I gotta agree with others, the Kool-Aid is strong. 1) the role of the "evolving" pharmacist has been discussed since at least the 80's....counseling/MTM/medical home/pharmaceutical care....I've lost track of all the names it's wen under. 2) the legislation you refer to has also been for many years, sometimes decades, there is reason to think it will never pass, especially in the current economic atmosphere. 3) Pharmacy does not need more residencies, especially in specialties. There aren't enough jobs for the specialty jobs for the ones that already exist. Even PGY-1 resident grads in many areas, have a hard time just getting a job as staff in hospital.
OK, this is a new argument, but I doubt it's true. From what I've seen in Chicago and their pharmacy school glut, students have a hard time even getting regular rotation sites, because there is no room for them. The students end up having to go quite a distance away to get a rotation spot, and the school ends up bribing, er I mean paying, the institution to take the student--this results in significantly higher tuition. Given the rotation acquisition problems, I highly doubt new schools are going to be setting up ground-breaking residencies.
Soooo, how are these "underrepresented" students you were talking about in your 1st post, able to get the massive loans needed to pay for this school. People who can finance $40,000/year through school (of have the collateral in order for a bank to trust them with that length of loan) are usually not thought of as "underrepresented."
Sure, express your opinion, but don't be surprised when other's express back that they completely disagree with you opinion.
Um, no, you don't know that you are getting candidate status in July. Nobody knows they are getting candidate status until you actually get it (which granted, maybe you have at this point.)
Oh, far more than a "couple" of COP's are for-profit. As other's have pointed out, your non-profit has tuition rates rivaling private COP's, so it really doesn't matter at in in regards to the tuition cost, if your school is profit or non-profit.
Because the Larkin grads can't have preferrential treatment and the residency be accredited. Or is your school telling you that a non-accredited residency is just as good as an accredited residency?
Indeed, reality is pretty much every state is purple, with red states have a slightly higher majority of Republicans, and blue states having a slightly higher majority of Democrats. I don't know why Larkin would have assumed you voted for Trump, just because you are from a red-state.
This is a very sad bit of news. Tragic and disgusting what happened in that nursing home. If the administration of this nursing home is reflective of the administration of Larkin's COP, then it very well might end up the way of HCOP.
You have to give them credit for trying to spin "my school does not qualify for federal student loans" into a positive thing.
Inmate dies at hospital owned by doctor whose nursing home had 12 deaths after Irma
The owner of Larkin hospital is under criminal investigation.. I don't know how well this bodes for the students.
Actually. That is not true. If you are referring to the immigration inmate who was under the custody of federal immigration officers who tried to hang himself and eventually died it is obvious that no one at Larkin would have culpability. All they did is try to save this man's life.
You are making assumptions based on news articles. The facts about what happened at the nursing home will eventually see the light of day and the administrators of the Nursing home will be vindicated. Unfortunately the media and politicians want to find someone to blame. The reality is that this was a natural disaster and the employees and administrators of the nursing home did everything in their power. Wait until all the facts are revealed before jumping to conclusions.
No. Many of the nursing homes my pharmacy services relocated after the storm, they should have done the same.
If you think there will ever be an explanation that vindicates the deaths of multiple patients for something as easily remedied as lack of power, you are delusional. I live in Florida, I know the options that are available. They aren't cheap, but they exist. You can run a generator, you can relocate/evacuate, hell they could have done something as simple as have ice water available for the residents (possibly, the issue may have been bigger than just needing ice water, I admit).
It's good not to jump to conclusions but sometimes issues really are clear cut. Those residents didn't die in the storm and the hurricane didn't reduce Florida to a third world country. The home had options but failed to act and residents died. It's not a complicated issue at all.
So is selling your soul to another useless college of pharmacy that's helping to destroy our profession.
What's the average GPA and PCAT of Larkin's candidates?