Latest Annual Net Income of Specialists....Enjoy

[periopocket]

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Screwtape]

Well they are all probably making so much because according to this survey there are only 413 practicing private practice dental specialists in the US!

 

[DrLeoSpacemanMD]

Money is not everything.

 

[ucsfbound2017]

.

 

[Tooth]

I would also like to point out that the standard deviation for orthodontists was nearly pushing the average. That's a really large deviation.

 

[Muggsy Bogues]

Those standard deviations are quite something.

 

[periopocket]

Also, out of 13,500 orthodontists, you are basing numbers out of only 107. I wasn't a stats major, but that just seems unpublishable!

This report was published by the ADA and released January 2017


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[periopocket]

I would also like to point out that the standard deviation for orthodontists was nearly pushing the average. That's a really large deviation.

They are ginormous


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[Kittenz]

View attachment 213712

Could you post a link to the original report?

 

[periopocket]

Could you post a link to the original report?

http://www.ada.org/en/science-research/health-policy-institute/data-center/dental-practice

First link when you scroll down will take you to the excel file.


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[Munks]

<50-100 responses, don't know how much you can take from this report... and it shows with the SDs.

The one thing showing truth is OS > all

 

[RoseEndo]

<50-100 responses, don't know how much you can take from this report... and it shows with the SDs.

The one thing showing truth is OS > all

Above numbers are meaningless. Last year, I had to increase my hours since I lost two of my best referrals in town. They hired a new associate, and annual income almost dropped by half. You can see number of respondents are not significant either. They are many different factors involved and your income changes every year.

 

[Expert]

was that new associate doing the difficult endo cases that normally would be referred to you?

 

[Expert]

Above numbers are meaningless. Last year, I had to increase my hours since I lost two of my best referrals in town. They hired a new associate, and annual income almost dropped by half. You can see number of respondents are not significant either. They are many different factors involved and your income changes every year.

was that new associate doing the difficult endo cases that were normally referred to you?

 

[periopocket]

Above numbers are meaningless. Last year, I had to increase my hours since I lost two of my best referrals in town. They hired a new associate, and annual income almost dropped by half. You can see number of respondents are not significant either. They are many different factors involved and your income changes every year.

Rosey: first and foremost, I am a big fan of yours and always follow your postings.

However, from my understanding, California tends to be a tougher market in general. Many general dentists and specialists make less than the Median Salary in the US, at the expense of sunshine of course. Location will always remain an important factor.

Based on my own research (and the ADA's coincidentally), the Median Salaries do show some reflection.


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[hahadino2771]

Here is a statistics from dental cpa in North East. I guess it is similar to the table above? But there are some experienced associate GPs who make $400k and there are some specialists making less than $200k... so I guess income range varies a lot

 

[Likkriue]

Ortho is starting to look less and less appealing when you start to consider you have to pay for residency.

 

[vellnueve]

Ortho is starting to look less and less appealing when you start to consider you have to pay for residency.

Nothing worth having comes easy.

 

[Toothextraxulation]

Ortho is starting to look less and less appealing when you start to consider you have to pay for residency.

Orthodontics is dying a slow death. In 5 or 10 years all the people going into it right now will wish they hadn't.

 

[kyredsox]

Orthodontics is dying a slow death. In 5 or 10 years all the people going into it right now will wish they hadn't.

Why do you say that

 

[Toothextraxulation]

Why do you say that

Decreasing overall income
Greater number of orthodontists
Larger and larger numbers of GPs doing orthodontics
Huge graduation debt loads
Giant corporate mills

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Decreasing overall income
Greater number of orthodontists
Larger and larger numbers of GPs doing orthodontics
Huge graduation debt loads
Giant corporate mills

Greater number of GPs taking on ortho to be able to pay off their student loans

 

[Toothextraxulation]

And note the median for ortho- huge discrepancy there. Means there are probably a few outliers making a huge amount compared to the others. Would love to see what the mean was if you took those out.


Median value is closer to what I think you're going to see in 5-10 years. There will be some lucky orthos that get to work for pediatric dental groups, but most of them are going to get screwed.

 

[CaliDDS1986]

Any more opinions from the orthos that read these threads?

@Tooth @charlestweed

 

[periopocket]

Here is a statistics from dental cpa in North East. I guess it is similar to the table above? But there are some experienced associate GPs who make $400k and there are some specialists making less than $200k... so I guess income range varies a lot

Hey thanks for digging this up. This is the same scientific research only conducted 1 year earlier by the ADA and put into a graph form. Anywase, the data I've posted is for 2015 - its newer, so yes, you can use this as a comparing point. Each year the ADA releases this data and it reflects salaries 2 years prior.Some salaries have indeed fluctuated, but overall they are close. Median is usually the important number to consider.


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[periopocket]

Money is not everything.

Your right, money is not everything. When choosing a specialty one should also consider lifestyle, average numbers of hours per week and of course your own interest. Some people specialize in things they actually have fun in.

Orthodontics has become one of most popular specialties. Not only for money, but great lifestyle and amazing on the body when comparing other fields.


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[periopocket]

And note the median for ortho- huge discrepancy there. Means there are probably a few outliers making a huge amount compared to the others. Would love to see what the mean was if you took those out.


Median value is closer to what I think you're going to see in 5-10 years. There will be some lucky orthos that get to work for pediatric dental groups, but most of them are going to get screwed.

Old time orthos are still killing it, hence the deviation. I know one making 1 mill a year, he's 65 yo. New time ortho is another story, most that live in reasonable and livable locations make around 200-250k, which is still a great living.


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[schmoob]

Orthodontics is dying a slow death. In 5 or 10 years all the people going into it right now will wish they hadn't.

Decreasing overall income
Greater number of orthodontists
Larger and larger numbers of GPs doing orthodontics
Huge graduation debt loads
Giant corporate mills

And note the median for ortho- huge discrepancy there. Means there are probably a few outliers making a huge amount compared to the others. Would love to see what the mean was if you took those out.


Median value is closer to what I think you're going to see in 5-10 years. There will be some lucky orthos that get to work for pediatric dental groups, but most of them are going to get screwed.

Are you a dentist?

You are making many claims and inferences here. Please cite your sources to support your statements. Otherwise you are simply speculating and making arbitrary projections.

 

[Lane138]

I'm on the east coast (big city but not New York) and nearly all endodontists I know make around the 1st quartile....

Low response rate certainly skews the responses a bit

 

[Hoopin4dayz]

doesnt the ortho situation also apply to other specialties like OS? I feel like a lot of GPs are also doing the OS bread and butter dentistries like implants and wisdom teeth extractions. Hence, I assume the income for OS will be decreasing as well. Cant go into any speciality just for the money itself

 

[vellnueve]

doesnt the ortho situation also apply to other specialties like OS? I feel like a lot of GPs are also doing the OS bread and butter dentistries like implants and wisdom teeth extractions. Hence, I assume the income for OS will be decreasing as well. Cant go into any speciality just for the money itself

Most GPs don't do impacted thirds.

 

[periopocket]

BUMP

 

[osahon7]

Rosey: first and foremost, I am a big fan of yours and always follow your postings. If I may ask, why is California a tougher market?

However, from my understanding, California tends to be a tougher market in general. Many general dentists and specialists make less than the Median Salary in the US, at the expense of sunshine of course. Location will always remain an important factor.

Based on my own research (and the ADA's coincidentally), the Median Salaries do show some reflection.


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[osahon7]

@periopocket why is California a tougher market?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

@periopocket why is California a tougher market?

Because it is saturated beyond belief.

Big Hoss

 

[Localnative]

Money is not everything.

perhaps true, friend.
this has baffled economists for ages... the more you have, the less effective it is at bringing you joy
what a paradox. See "Running the hedonic treadmill"
of course, sh*tload of debt obscures that hedonic adaptation.
M

 

[Student Loan Planner]

For what it's worth, most of the OMFS I've spoken with in the Northeast and California have been closer to that 1st quartile. The orthodontists I've spoken with in flyover country or the Southeast have been mostly at 3rd quartile or above. Peds dentists similar story with lots of saturation. It's really a tale of two professions, with many in the saturated high cost big cities living decent lives and the ones in the small and middle sized towns with less competition having a lot of economic success

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

For what it's worth, most of the OMFS I've spoken with in the Northeast and California have been closer to that 1st quartile. The orthodontists I've spoken with in flyover country or the Southeast have been mostly at 3rd quartile or above. Peds dentists similar story with lots of saturation. It's really a tale of two professions, with many in the saturated high cost big cities living decent lives and the ones in the small and middle sized towns with less competition having a lot of economic success

Is it safe to assume that you talk to people that are struggling more financially than those you dont talk to?

 

[hahadino2771]

For what it's worth, most of the OMFS I've spoken with in the Northeast and California have been closer to that 1st quartile. The orthodontists I've spoken with in flyover country or the Southeast have been mostly at 3rd quartile or above. Peds dentists similar story with lots of saturation. It's really a tale of two professions, with many in the saturated high cost big cities living decent lives and the ones in the small and middle sized towns with less competition having a lot of economic success

what's your thoughts on other specialites in real life? like endo, perio?

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Is it safe to assume that you talk to people that are struggling more financially than those you dont talk to?

Of course, if you only had 150k from Texas A&M you're a lot less likely to contact me than if you have 550k from NYU. That said I think my sample size is highly representative of the right third of the normal distribution of debt loads. People only report stats on medians and averages from what I've seen. I'm seeing stuff that shows the worst off third or quarter which should definitely be something folks consider

what's your thoughts on other specialites in real life? like endo, perio?

Endo / perio seem to always have lower debt and be doing decently well. Again though it's all about demographics and where you practice. If you're the only specialist for a population of 50,000 and 200 miles from the nearest 1 million plus city you're probably going to make significantly more money than a OMFS in Manhattan

 

[Medin2017]

Ortho here, a few years practicing. I read over this and I think it looks surprisingly accurate from a few different perspectives. OS and endo typically make far more than other specialists in my experience, at least on a per diem basis. However, what would really be interesting to know is how many days per year these people are working. I would guess that these numbers would be even more disparate if that was taken into consideration. I also believe the standard deviation or "spread" within ortho is huge. That is completely anecdotal, but I have worked in a number of different settings and closely with all types of specialists.

From what an OS told me, private practice OS don't work many hours. The OS having a worser lifestyle belief is due to the ones that work in hospitals. Private practice OS and endo's don't work many hours at all.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

worser

Lol

 

[Medin2017]

Lol

haha whoops

 

[Biffster]

Ortho here as well. Currently ortho is facing challenges from within (ortho resident mills popping up around the country, over the top advertising and price competition) as well as from without (GPs doing ortho, corporate). Overhead can also be a problem. CBCT, Invisalign, Suresmile etc all drive up overhead while fees are under pressure.

OMS appears to be a sure bet in terms of financial rewards and I don't see that changing any time soon. Endo and pedo also seem to be doing very well. Perio can be good in the right market. Financially, ortho is not what it was a decade or two ago. There are parts of the country and there are niche markets where ortho can still do exceedingly well, but even those practices will likely face more financial pressures in the future.

I have enjoyed ortho and for me it was a great decision, but if I were in dental school today I would be looking at OMS--not just for financial reasons, but the current and future market for ortho would likely be a factor that would help steer me in that direction.

Yes, I know the grass is always greener....

 

[Hoopin4dayz]

Anyone have any input for dentist anesthesiologists?

 

[ncide]

Yes, I know the grass is always greener....

One of my classmate's father worked for a number of years as an OFMS, then decided to go back to school for ortho residency. He's a practicing orthodontist now.

The periodontist I worked under envied the orthodontist's job, the orthodontist wished she looked at endo more seriously, and the oral surgeon disliked working altogether. Wanted to spend more time with her kids...

The grass is always greener indeed. Funny how that is.

 

[Firm]

I don't see a path for success for someone who wants to go into private practice ortho. $500-700,000 in debt. Then you have to get lucky to find a stable practice for sale or spend another $500,000 to open from scratch. In addition to the fact that residency programs teach you almost nothing about aligners, which are the future of ortho. Expect to spend another $200-300,000 on lab fees in order to train yourself.

 

[Localnative]

Anyone have any input for dentist anesthesiologists?

Not a DA but my friend in Southeast Florida is doing well. He travels between offices (pediatric, general) and does cases. Makes a good living, travels with a nurse to assist. There is some competition from medical anesthesia doing the travelling gig but there seems to be a good market down here so everyone gets a nice share of the pie (I don't think its unheard of to do in the 250-300,000 range given the number of practices advertising "sedation" to attract clientele). As an OS I don't hire DAs usually, however for larger cases in the office (for example tentpole procedure for mandibular grafting from hip, full arch implants) I have hired anesthesia given intensive and long nature of these surgeries. Also, some of the DAs supplement/have their own general practices so that is another source of income.
M

 

[charlestweed]

Overhead can also be a problem. CBCT, Invisalign, Suresmile etc all drive up overhead while fees are under pressure.

If you don’t use them, then the overhead shouldn’t be a problem. Many orthodontists in the past didn’t have any these expensive toys and they still provided excellent clinical results for their patients. It’s the painter and not the paintbrush.

It’s sad to see many ortho programs introducing the latest and the most expensive gadgets to their residents, instead of teaching them the basics such as handtracing the ceph, hand trimming the study models etc. And when they get out and work for a busy dental chain, they can’t handle the pressure because the chain offices lack these technologies. When they start their own office, they think that they have to have all these toys in order meet the standard of care and to attract patients. They think that in order to have a successful practice, they have to spend $500k to build it.

About 3 years ago, I moved my patients from a 3-op office to a larger 7-op office. The total cost for that move is $3k:
- Construction cost: $0. I share this new 7-op office with a GP owner. I pay him $1700/month in rent, which is the same as what I pay for the previous 3-op office.
- Pan/ceph machine: $10k. I bought a refurbished PC-1000 directly from Panoramic Corporation.
- X ray Developer: $600. I bought it used from a GP, who switched to digital xray.
- 4 Ortho chairs+ delivery units: $17k from Dome, Inc. The GP owner provides 3 chairs.
I sold the previous 3-op office to a new grad ortho for $25k. So the net cost for moving to a larger office is $3k. With a larger office, I can see twice as many patients in a day so I can work fewer days in a month.

In 2005, I spent $85k to build my first brand new office….and another $35k for 4 chairs and other equipments. It’s 100% paper chart…no computer, no management software, no need to deal with IT guys…..zero headache. The less I have to rely on the outside services (Invisalign, SureSmile, lab, tech supports, the sale reps etc), the more freedom I have in running my own practice.

In 2009, I bought an existing 1400sf 5-op office from a retiring ortho for $165k. Many orthos looked at the office but no one made an offer because it’s a dying office with only 140 active patients and the county was facing an economic recession. I bought it without any hesitation because it’s a lot cheaper than starting one from scratch.

 

[CaliDDS1986]

If you don’t use them, then the overhead shouldn’t be a problem. Many orthodontists in the past didn’t have any these expensive toys and they still provided excellent clinical results for their patients. It’s the painter and not the paintbrush.

It’s sad to see many ortho programs introducing the latest and the most expensive gadgets to their residents, instead of teaching them the basics such as handtracing the ceph, hand trimming the study models etc. And when they get out and work for a busy dental chain, they can’t handle the pressure because the chain offices lack these technologies. When they start their own office, they think that they have to have all these toys in order meet the standard of care and to attract patients. They think that in order to have a successful practice, they have to spend $500k to build it.

About 3 years ago, I moved my patients from a 3-op office to a larger 7-op office. The total cost for that move is $3k:
- Construction cost: $0. I share this new 7-op office with a GP owner. I pay him $1700/month in rent, which is the same as what I pay for the previous 3-op office.
- Pan/ceph machine: $10k. I bought a refurbished PC-1000 directly from Panoramic Corporation.
- X ray Developer: $600. I bought it used from a GP, who switched to digital xray.
- 4 Ortho chairs+ delivery units: $17k from Dome, Inc. The GP owner provides 3 chairs.
I sold the previous 3-op office to a new grad ortho for $25k. So the net cost for moving to a larger office is $3k. With a larger office, I can see twice as many patients in a day so I can work fewer days in a month.

In 2005, I spent $85k to build my first brand new office….and another $35k for 4 chairs and other equipments. It’s 100% paper chart…no computer, no management software, no need to deal with IT guys…..zero headache. The less I have to rely on the outside services (Invisalign, SureSmile, lab, tech supports, the sale reps etc), the more freedom I have in running my own practice.

In 2009, I bought an existing 1400sf 5-op office from a retiring ortho for $165k. Many orthos looked at the office but no one made an offer because it’s a dying office with only 140 active patients and the county was facing an economic recession. I bought it without any hesitation because it’s a lot cheaper than starting one from scratch.

The constant difference in the boards between @Firm and @charlestweed outlook on the future of ortho makes my head constantly spin and make it difficult to decide who is right. Is it even worth it to go to ortho??