Lets do something about it!!

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pharmacychica

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There has to be something we can do!!!! The NABP should not be able to get away with this. I spoke to them today and they said they HOPED that NAPLEX would be reinstated by december, but they wouldn't even say that for sure!!! This is crazy!!!!!

Does anyone know what we can do? Start a petition or something? Is there something legally we can do. We are going to lose so much in salary loss and not to mention that student loans will be coming due for some of us in 6 months post graduation!!!

There has to be something we can do!! I want to be proactive and not let the NABP get away with this!! They are affecting peoples lives and it just isn't right!!!!!!!!! Is anyone with me?😕
 
Hey I agree with you. We should be taking legal action against all parties involved. Especially if it is due to the Flynn notes thing, which most of us didn't even have access to. Its not fair!! Well, it turns out the Texas Board of Pharmacy will not even extend the intern licenses out here, so my intern license expires on August 31, 2007. We definitely need to take legal action against the parties involved!!
 
I am with ya!!! I say the whole system needs to be scrapped especially the bloated burocracy known as NABP. A total waste of time and money...

As far as legal action, who are you going to bring it against?
 
I would just like to know why they are doing this NOW. Flynn has been giving reviews for years....what are they going to do, revoke 5-10 years worth of PharmDs for those who went to his review?? I am sorry for those of you who haven't taken it yet. Suspending boards so they can take their sweet time writing a new exam is not the answer.
 
Hey I agree with you. We should be taking legal action against all parties involved. Especially if it is due to the Flynn notes thing, which most of us didn't even have access to. Its not fair!! Well, it turns out the Texas Board of Pharmacy will not even extend the intern licenses out here, so my intern license expires on August 31, 2007. We definitely need to take legal action against the parties involved!!


I agree so what can we do? I am trying to see if anyone knows who to contact or who to complain to. I have sent an email to the NABP (like it is going to help!!! Right!!) And I am going to speak with yet another person tomorrow to see where I can get, but I think we need to go above the NABP for this. Any suggestions? We are all losing so much money! Renewing licenses, lost wages, possibly losing our jobs!!! Someone needs to pay!! This just sucks!!
 
I am talking to some people that know lawyers to find out if we can do anything as far as legal action is concerned. So far from what I've been hearing if there is any legal action taken it can be taken against the school that he taught at, the professor himself, and any other entity that was involved in endorsing his board reviews. I'll keep you posted as soon as I find out more. I am sure if we can get a big group together a class action lawsuit will be possible.
 
Im all in for class action. this is terrible and com[pletely outrageous!
but dont class action suits take forever! what do we do in the meantime?😕
 
What will class action suit against a defunct organization or a person in a civil court do for you when you need a pharmacist license now? Not a whole lot at this point.

Contact your politician. It is a huge healthcare concern. And a motivated politician with an interest in healthcare will run with it. I say, contact your governor's office with a petition to get NABP off their ass.
 
I can't believe they are making everyone wait so long to take the test. I took it back in June and thankfully so because I bought a house and thus have the mortgage now and my student loans are going into repayment soon. However, my fiance is finishing pharmacy school this semester so he's going to have to be waiting around too for when the NAPLEX is available.

😕
 
hell...im surprised this hasn't hit the media yet...imagine the headlines


tell me about it!

what is really bothering me is WE have to WAIT for nabp's official decision on when the exam is back. i thought studying was stressful enough but now alll i want is to take the test.

no reports no updates nothing!😕
 
Freind of mine told me his supervisior told him it will take 6 months for making new naplex exam? thats too much😴
 
So here is what I have done in my proactive attemt to stop this madness! I have contacted 3 of my local news stations to give them the story and hope that they cover it. I have emailed the NABP and I have spoken to 2 people at the NABP (They are not going to help at all). So I have now started emailing government officails (Obama and others)! We can't all just complain to each other cause it will make us feel better but wont get anything done. So if you are with me please help me get this going! The more complaints they get the more they will feel pressured to do something!! I made a complaint template and I am just cutting and pasting it in every mailbox I can get to online! Someone has to listen to us right?! Right?! I am filling all the time I would be studying with trying to get someone to fix this!! Any other suggestions on who to contact? I will do it all day long if I have to!!
 
tell me about it!

what is really bothering me is WE have to WAIT for nabp's official decision on when the exam is back. i thought studying was stressful enough but now alll i want is to take the test.

no reports no updates nothing!😕


I just wanted to let you know that the only information they will release is that they are HOPING to reinstate the exam by December. They won't even say for sure that it will be this year. They told me that they will definately not have it reinstated before november. They are all crazy if you ask me!
 
So here is what I have done in my proactive attemt to stop this madness! I have contacted 3 of my local news stations to give them the story and hope that they cover it. I have emailed the NABP and I have spoken to 2 people at the NABP (They are not going to help at all). So I have now started emailing government officails (Obama and others)! We can't all just complain to each other cause it will make us feel better but wont get anything done. So if you are with me please help me get this going! The more complaints they get the more they will feel pressured to do something!! I made a complaint template and I am just cutting and pasting it in every mailbox I can get to online! Someone has to listen to us right?! Right?! I am filling all the time I would be studying with trying to get someone to fix this!! Any other suggestions on who to contact? I will do it all day long if I have to!!

I just read the newspaper (haven't had time for a few days). It seems most of our government officials are trying to explain why they're playing footsie between toilet stalls or stashing money in freezers.😱

I'm not sure they have time for this NAPLEX stuff - but, let us know if you hear anything back from anyone.

I hope someone is taking notes....it could me a book - nah, too boring - perhaps a movie????

Personally, I think there's more to it.....
 
I informed th OC-register two days ago and I am still waiting to hear back. A grassroots effort might be the best course of action.
 
I informed th OC-register two days ago and I am still waiting to hear back. A grassroots effort might be the best course of action.


I will happily join your grassroots effort! I have sent an email to each member of the executive commity that made this decision and I spoke to one of them directly today. What else can we do? We can go protest outside of the NABP with signs and make a scene! HEHE!! Not likely, but seriously any other suggestions on what to do.
 
I certainly understand why everyone is upset and the situation does suck, but if the NABP truly believes the integrity of the test has been compromised isn't it in the best interest of the public to suspend testing until they feel it is legitimate?

Don't forget the job of the NABP is to protect the public health, so if they feel the current version of the NAPLEX can't accurately assess minimal competency for a pharmacist (assuming the test has been compromised) it seems like they'd have no other choice but to suspend testing.
 
I certainly understand why everyone is upset and the situation does suck, but if the NABP truly believes the integrity of the test has been compromised isn't it in the best interest of the public to suspend testing until they feel it is legitimate?

Don't forget the job of the NABP is to protect the public health, so if they feel the current version of the NAPLEX can't accurately assess minimal competency for a pharmacist (assuming the test has been compromised) it seems like they'd have no other choice but to suspend testing.


Well, it seems like they knew about the exam being compromised for the last 5-10 years... so how come it took the NABP so long to figure this out! I don't think they are being fair to the students and to the profession itself. The knew about this so many years ago, and you can't tell me they are this slow at remembering they are supposed to be "protecting the public health." This doesn't look good for the profession at all!
 
I certainly understand why everyone is upset and the situation does suck, but if the NABP truly believes the integrity of the test has been compromised isn't it in the best interest of the public to suspend testing until they feel it is legitimate?

Don't forget the job of the NABP is to protect the public health, so if they feel the current version of the NAPLEX can't accurately assess minimal competency for a pharmacist (assuming the test has been compromised) it seems like they'd have no other choice but to suspend testing.


I highly doubt the NABP officials in charge have "public interest" as the #1 priority in this matter. They're more interested saving face and self preservation of themselves....then everything else follows, especially if they suspected wrong doing and didn't do anything about it.
 
I agree! Of course I want the exam to be legit, but that doesn't seem to be what this is about. It has been this way for years and all of a sudden it is sooooooo urgent! Makes no sense at all! It is the NABP's irresponsiblility of repeating questions on the exam!! They should have different exams and this problem could have been prevented. That would have been the best way for them to protect the public.

I spoke to someone at the NABP yesterday who said that this was like a lead paint situation that they couldn't allow us to go into!! I just laughed because it seems that they have been allowing others to go into this situation for years and now they decide to be so careful!! Its a joke if you ask me! They are trying to cover thier @$$'s!!!

He also told me that when enough evidence is gathered that they will be going back and revoking licenses of anyone who was involved. We'll see!! I would feel even worse for those people! This is just a huge mess!
 
Hi all,

I am Andrea Jones, the higher education reporter at The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Sounds like the UGA situation is creating headaches for many.

Anyone want to talk to me about it? work phone is 404-526-7217. I am writing a story about Flynn Warren for tomorrow's paper.

Thanks!!!
 
Do you know how many licenses they would have to revoke? They won't do it. This is just a game they are playing. There is WAY to much need for pharmacists right now. I want a day off. The Naplex questions are weighted. If you get question one right, they will give you a harder question. And continue until you get a question wrong. Then the easy questions start again. Pharmacy is the only one that tests this way. Medical and nursing licenses are different, you just have to answer enough questions to pass. The review does not help with this type of test other than to broaden your own knowlede.

Suing is stupid. If you had the chance for a great review you would take it just like every one else. Sour grapes. I'm sorry that people can't take the test right now. Blame the NAPLEX. They chose to do this.

Some questions from the Kaplan review book were on the NAPLEX test. You don't see anyone going after them, do you?
If you sue, you'll be just like the woman that sued McDonalds because her coffee was hot. Welcome to the real world.
 
I certainly understand why everyone is upset and the situation does suck, but if the NABP truly believes the integrity of the test has been compromised isn't it in the best interest of the public to suspend testing until they feel it is legitimate?

Don't forget the job of the NABP is to protect the public health, so if they feel the current version of the NAPLEX can't accurately assess minimal competency for a pharmacist (assuming the test has been compromised) it seems like they'd have no other choice but to suspend testing.


Isn't that what the accreditation board is for? I believe all of use that graduate for an accredited college of pharmacy is already competent enough to be retail pharmacist. AND if you argue on the side of clinical pharmacist, they have to do residencies. The NAPLEX should NOT be as hard as it is. Random drug/disease related facts tells NOTHING about how competent of a pharmacist you are or will be.

SHOULDN'T EACH OF US ALREADY HAVE EACH AND EVERY QUESTION TO THE NAPLEX IN OUR HEADS AND IN OUR NOTES FROM SCHOOL?:idea:

One would think. BUT, most of the NAPLEX is more of a drug trivia instead of a licensure test.
 
hell...im surprised this hasn't hit the media yet...imagine the headlines
See how little people care about pharmacy? Now you know!

It finally hit the media and in disgusting detail. All the documents have been posted. After reading through them all, I am convinced this is a witch hunt and it sounds like NABP's number 1 concern is vengeance against UGA and Flynn Warren, not safe guarding America's public health. Who the hell files a gag order claim and then turn right around and talk about specific information about the case? And this is the President of NABP for crying out loud!! They were feeling so good about themselves, they HAD to get the word out and tell everyone either by email list serve AND interrupting a national meeting (AACP) to make the announcement about the US Marshall seizure all the while in the meantime making it sound like he was already tried and convicted in the court of law! They could of kept all of this quiet (as REQUIRED by their own request and granted by the court) and continue giving out the test in its current form and if the court founded Flynn guilty, THEN suspend testing and deal with the situation. What a bunch of incompetent fools!

article- http://www.redandblack.com/media/st...haring.Licensure.Exam.Questions-2943246.shtml

Documents- http://media.www.redandblack.com/me...2007/08/30/News/Court.Documents-2942772.shtml
 
I can't believe they posted all the questions... It seems like this just further compromises the exam! I'm surprised that their "evidence" wasn't kept private.

I am beginning to wonder if those of us who are supposed to take it in 2008 are going to be completely screwed with an exam that is extremely difficult compared to past exams!

I just read through the complaint and I agree that this is more of a witch hunt/revenge. Central to the complaint is the copyright violation claim. However, I fail to see how this a copyright case. Facts are not copyright-able. The students took the NAPLEX and threreafter sent Flynn what they could remember about the questions. The reason that some of the questions on Flynn's package are verbatim of the real questions is, IMO, because composing a scientific examination question generally does not require a lot of expressive elements. For example, how many ways can one ask what is the maximum dosage of drug A. Flynn was just compiling all the facts of what the students thought were facts about the exam.

IMO, the NAPLEX stands a better chance on the contract cliam - that the students agree not to disclose the questions taken on the exam. However, that claim is buried in one sentence of the trade secret claim. [Thinking about it again, wouldn't the NABP have to go after the students who sent Flynn questions if they are going to pursue the contract claim?]

I think that this is a more of a witch hunt as the NABP is pissed off that somebody is actually doing this - collecting and disclosing questions on a scale not possible without the internet and emails - and the NABP wants to prevent any similar future effort. Overall, I feel that Flynn did nothing wrong.
 
Materials containing facts can be copyrighted. Why do you think you couldn't just photocopy Encyclopedia Brittanica and turn it in as your 5th grade history project?

I think that had more to do with plagerism than copyright infringement.
 
I just read through the complaint and I agree that this is more of a witch hunt/revenge. Central to the complaint is the copyright violation claim. However, I fail to see how this a copyright case. Facts are not copyright-able. The students took the NAPLEX and threreafter sent Flynn what they could remember about the questions. The reason that some of the questions on Flynn's package are verbatim of the real questions is, IMO, because composing a scientific examination question generally does not require a lot of expressive elements. For example, how many ways can one ask what is the maximum dosage of drug A. Flynn was just compiling all the facts of what the students thought were facts about the exam.

IMO, the NAPLEX stands a better chance on the contract cliam - that the students agree not to disclose the questions taken on the exam. However, that claim is buried in one sentence of the trade secret claim. [Thinking about it again, wouldn't the NABP have to go after the students who sent Flynn questions if they are going to pursue the contract claim?]

I think that this is a more of a witch hunt as the NABP is pissed off that somebody is actually doing this - collecting and disclosing questions on a scale not possible without the internet and emails - and the NABP wants to prevent any similar future effort. Overall, I feel that Flynn did nothing wrong.

I appreciate your opinion that Flynn did nothing wrong, but I feel he did something significantly wrong. There are past cases which document that this is indeed a very serious misdeed (see Cody v CA - State Board of Pharmacy).

This was before CA even accepted the NAPLEX & now if the NAPLEX is not a valid test of competency, then what can any of us who are licensed even think you know?

You cannot expect to know each & every question or situation presented to you. The exam is designed to test you on what your clinical judgmental skills are. If you already know the situation - then you've been given the opportunity to think it out. You don't always have that luxury.

What is so wrong about just going through school, learning the material & taking the exam? Many, many of us have done just that without these review sessions.

Whomever said the NAPLEX is licensing just retail pharmacists & not "clinical" (goodness - where do you go to school - are you meaning hospital???) - that is ABSOLUTELY WRONG! The NAPLEX is licensing your ability to be a pharmacist in ANY setting. You may not get hired in a specilized setting which might require a residency, but you are required to know the basics that each & every pharmacist needs to know. The NAPLEX is no where nearly as difficult as the CA State Board Exam was. You'd be surprised how often these "random drug/disease related facts" become important when you've got a patient you are doing MTM counseling on.

Do you know how many pharmacists do not know that the expiration date of a Nuva Ring must be changed on dispensing??? I know lots of them!!! How about Duac - how many Duac's have you just put the exp that appears on the box??? I correct interns on this all the time. No one tells them that expirations change with temperature conditions - and god-forbid should they read about them!

There was just a published review of NC pharmacist (of whom NC has great pharmacy schools - don't get me wrong. I've got nothing against NC, this is just where the survey was taken). Nearly 25% of these pharmacists said Plan B was the same as the abortion pill with nearly 5% saying Plan B caused an abortion.

Nearly 1/3 were unaware that Plan B is effective up to 72 hours after unprotected sexual intercourse or contraceptive failure.

11% said they would require a prescription for ALL women (Plan B is OTC for >18 nationwide)

Only 57% of rural pharmacies had Plan B in stock & among those that didn't, nearly 30% refused to order it.

Quoted prices ranged from $20 up to $500 (its about $45-$55 nationwide).

This demonstrates a significant lack of knowledge of actual licensed pharmacists in the state of NC (not to isolate NC....that was just the state which was review - it could be any state!!!).

The point is - we are expected to be clinical, up to date, constantly changing & ready to accept & promote understanding of drug usage, no matter the setting.

The basic test of knowledge is the NAPLEX. If you cannot pass the NAPLEX without a review course, cramming or extra help (see Morris Cody - the guy who thought he could get ANYONE licensed!).....you won't be a very good pharmacist. If you need this guy Flynn to get licensed....what was missing from your knowledge base & why? Where will you be in 10, 15, 20 years when no one is testing you anymore?
 
SDN I know you've been in practice for awhile but your post seems very condescending to me. When you are asked questions in a retail or hospital setting you don't just pick a random answer such as on the NAPLEX. There are resources available that you can and should use. If I were to practice pharmacy similarly to how I took the naplex I would be saying "it could be this or this but I *think* it's the first option, not sure though but whatever"

My knowledge base is good but I would be a fool to think that i know everything. That is why I consult up-to-date, pubmed, micromedex, etc etc to answer questions.

And 5% thought it caused an abortion? That means 95% knew the correct answer! As for the price of plan B, we are not robots who memorize prices and insurance copays (although some customers would like to think we know all copays). I don't see how that line of logic has to do with the naplex, are you saying that these people took Flynn's course? Or that pharmacy schools don't teach plan B well enough?

I didn't take flynn's course and I don't know much about this ordeal. It's unfortunate the security of the test was breached but I do not think it's fair to judge those who have taken review courses (I took kaplan) to better prepare themselves for the test.
 
Materials containing facts can be copyrighted. Why do you think you couldn't just photocopy Encyclopedia Brittanica and turn it in as your 5th grade history project?

I think that you are getting my point. If I just lifted the facts from Encyclopedia Brittanica to compose my 5th grade history report then nobody can touch me. Again, facts are not copyrightable but expressions of facts are. E.g., newspaper B can print an article containing facts about an exclusive given to newspaper A. However, newspaper B cannot just copy the entire newspapaer A artcile and print it as their own.
 
I appreciate your opinion that Flynn did nothing wrong, but I feel he did something significantly wrong. There are past cases which document that this is indeed a very serious misdeed (see Cody v CA - State Board of Pharmacy).

This was before CA even accepted the NAPLEX & now if the NAPLEX is not a valid test of competency, then what can any of us who are licensed even think you know?

You cannot expect to know each & every question or situation presented to you. The exam is designed to test you on what your clinical judgmental skills are. If you already know the situation - then you've been given the opportunity to think it out. You don't always have that luxury.

What is so wrong about just going through school, learning the material & taking the exam? Many, many of us have done just that without these review sessions.

Whomever said the NAPLEX is licensing just retail pharmacists & not "clinical" (goodness - where do you go to school - are you meaning hospital???) - that is ABSOLUTELY WRONG! The NAPLEX is licensing your ability to be a pharmacist in ANY setting. You may not get hired in a specilized setting which might require a residency, but you are required to know the basics that each & every pharmacist needs to know. The NAPLEX is no where nearly as difficult as the CA State Board Exam was. You'd be surprised how often these "random drug/disease related facts" become important when you've got a patient you are doing MTM counseling on.

Do you know how many pharmacists do not know that the expiration date of a Nuva Ring must be changed on dispensing??? I know lots of them!!! How about Duac - how many Duac's have you just put the exp that appears on the box??? I correct interns on this all the time. No one tells them that expirations change with temperature conditions - and god-forbid should they read about them!

There was just a published review of NC pharmacist (of whom NC has great pharmacy schools - don't get me wrong. I've got nothing against NC, this is just where the survey was taken). Nearly 25% of these pharmacists said Plan B was the same as the abortion pill with nearly 5% saying Plan B caused an abortion.

Nearly 1/3 were unaware that Plan B is effective up to 72 hours after unprotected sexual intercourse or contraceptive failure.

11% said they would require a prescription for ALL women (Plan B is OTC for >18 nationwide)

Only 57% of rural pharmacies had Plan B in stock & among those that didn't, nearly 30% refused to order it.

Quoted prices ranged from $20 up to $500 (its about $45-$55 nationwide).

This demonstrates a significant lack of knowledge of actual licensed pharmacists in the state of NC (not to isolate NC....that was just the state which was review - it could be any state!!!).

The point is - we are expected to be clinical, up to date, constantly changing & ready to accept & promote understanding of drug usage, no matter the setting.

The basic test of knowledge is the NAPLEX. If you cannot pass the NAPLEX without a review course, cramming or extra help (see Morris Cody - the guy who thought he could get ANYONE licensed!).....you won't be a very good pharmacist. If you need this guy Flynn to get licensed....what was missing from your knowledge base & why? Where will you be in 10, 15, 20 years when no one is testing you anymore?

My point is that Flynn was doing something that normal students regularly do except that his effort was a lot more organized. Although I was never a pharmacy student (my wife is), I imagine that it is a regular practice for a student to ask another "what questions did you get in your NAPLEX exam" or "what do you think I should concentrate on." Technically, the student who disclosed the information would be in violation of the non-disclosure agreement. IIRC, some pharmacy schools offer a NAPLEX review course with contents drawn from past NAPLEX exams and tell the students what they should concentrate on. Should those be outlawed as well?
 
SDN I know you've been in practice for awhile but your post seems very condescending to me. When you are asked questions in a retail or hospital setting you don't just pick a random answer such as on the NAPLEX. There are resources available that you can and should use. If I were to practice pharmacy similarly to how I took the naplex I would be saying "it could be this or this but I *think* it's the first option, not sure though but whatever"

My knowledge base is good but I would be a fool to think that i know everything. That is why I consult up-to-date, pubmed, micromedex, etc etc to answer questions.

And 5% thought it caused an abortion? That means 95% knew the correct answer! As for the price of plan B, we are not robots who memorize prices and insurance copays (although some customers would like to think we know all copays). I don't see how that line of logic has to do with the naplex, are you saying that these people took Flynn's course? Or that pharmacy schools don't teach plan B well enough?

I didn't take flynn's course and I don't know much about this ordeal. It's unfortunate the security of the test was breached but I do not think it's fair to judge those who have taken review courses (I took kaplan) to better prepare themselves for the test.

I do apologize for coming across condesending. That was not my intent. However, in my state, the Morris Cody incident did reflect poorly not just on Cody, but the students who took the course unfortunately have gotten stuck with a stigma & most who took it won't admit to it.

My intent, however, is to express frustration with students & sometimes how poorly they're prepared. I've just gone through a spate of intern graduates (one I might have mentioned who did take both exams & the individual will have to retake because there was suspicion of cheating - a graduate of MY school!). Some just don't have a clue about being able to think on their feet & know how to correlate material well.

There is another thread on this forum somewhere where one student is frustrated that he/she was being held up on rotations because of not passing a comprehensive examination. Well - again, the student is not prepared to go on. There is yet another thread on this forum from a physician who had a bad experience with a student on rotations & was truly trying to find good information to have students work on which is relevant to their curriculum & practice.

Now, we have students who feel they need review courses to take what essentially is a comprehensive examination. I would challenge that these questions are random or trivial. Yes, I do have resources to check at work - but I don't check them each time. There are some things you should know coming right out of school and being able to know what things are monitored for amphotericin B or the details of emadastine are not unusual at all. In real life - there are times when there is no time for you to look up information - the questioner needs it now.

This discussion is just the students & graduate interns situation, which frankly reflects poorly on the preparation they've had. Somebody has not done their job - the school or the student. In the case of my cheating graduate intern, I know it was not the school since I've had classmates of this individual before & after I had this intern. But, after speaking with some of my colleagues, it could be the school, depending on which school the student came from.

I'm actually embarrassed occasionally with my colleagues (although this is far fewer number than those I highly admire, I admit). Yes - if 5% thought Plan B was an abortion pill that is way, waaaaaay too high and is essentially a drug error. This is just poor continuing education. We've had this drug out for years so there's been plenty of time & opportunity to learn about it. What will these pharmacists say when asked about Tekturna? Will they even read up on it, or will they just read the alert labels & pt education thats printed out when an rx gets filled? Its hard work getting through school & learning (not cramming) enough to pass the licensing examinations. But - its much, much harder to keep up after being licensed & no one is examining you. Then, it becomes our own personal awareness of knowledge within our practice settings. I'll agree - a retail pharmacist will forget over 10 years the monitoring parameters for amphotericin infusions. But, that doesn't explain all the bad expiration dates that go out on Nuva Rings or Duac's or just misinformation on Plan B or even price ranges. Those drugs should be in their practice setting & they should not have to look them up each time they're dispensed or questioned about them. Yet...these "details" are being missed, as documented by the survey I referred to and labeling errors.

Shannon, I'll ask you - could you have passed the NAPLEX without a review course at all? If not, where were you lacking & why? (I don't mind if you choose not to answer because of its personal nature. I was wondering if you didn't really learn some part of your curriculum, it wasn't taught well or at all by your school, or if you just wanted to "be sure" - like taking practice test questions before an exam). If you really think you could have pased, have you given any thought as to how you're going to keep up now that your're licensed?

For those who pass & really think they need a review course to pass because of poor education on the part of their school - they might give some thought to getting involved as alumni and giving feedback to the school as a practioner. If you're not getting the basic education you need - tie your alumni contribution to an explanation of performance parameters of the school.

However badly you might feel about the NABP & the NAPLEX as an exam - this is how the public & we, ourselves, have deemed ourselves to be qualified to practice. If there is a question about the security or validity of the exam and nothing is done by the people who are in charge of it, then the public & our professional colleagues will question our qualifications since that is the only way we have to say that we are indeed qualified.

When the Cody incident occurred, there was no delay in examinations because there were enough questions to remake the exam. That does make me wonder if there is more to this than just what is being said right now. Could there perhaps have been a security breech higher up or laxness during examinations. I know the individual I'm aware of who was accused of cheating was not accused at the time - it was a complicated situation & part of the issue was the proctor. Again - it makes me wonder if there are issues beyond this Flynn person.

Again, Shannon, I apologize for the tone of my post. I did not intend to offend you or anyone else.
 
I agree with everyone that this test should be legit, but that is not the issue that I have with this situation! It is how the NABP has handled it. This is not an issue that has just recently come about. I has been going on since prior to 1994 and that is my issue! The suspension itself is what is not right!! I agree that Flynn's review should be looked into and the test should be reviewed, however I don't think that leaving us hanging is right! I have a mortgage payment, student loans, and a baby on the way!! It is not right for the NABP to have this kind of control over our lives! If you asked any of them to go 3-5 months without income they would be outraged! It is just impossible to support my family when I was supposed to be a pharmacist this month!

It is easy for a pharmacist to talk about the "integrity" of the exam and how bad this review is for the profession!! And while I agree I just think that what they are doing to us as PEOPLE is worse! Sorry to vent, but I don't even know if I have a job still! This is just devastating to the unfortunate group who haven't been able to take the exam!
 
I agree with everyone that this test should be legit, but that is not the issue that I have with this situation! It is how the NABP has handled it. This is not an issue that has just recently come about. I has been going on since prior to 1994 and that is my issue! The suspension itself is what is not right!! I agree that Flynn's review should be looked into and the test should be reviewed, however I don't think that leaving us hanging is right! I have a mortgage payment, student loans, and a baby on the way!! It is not right for the NABP to have this kind of control over our lives! If you asked any of them to go 3-5 months without income they would be outraged! It is just impossible to support my family when I was supposed to be a pharmacist this month!

It is easy for a pharmacist to talk about the "integrity" of the exam and how bad this review is for the profession!! And while I agree I just think that what they are doing to us as PEOPLE is worse! Sorry to vent, but I don't even know if I have a job still! This is just devastating to the unfortunate group who haven't been able to take the exam!

Its good you're venting because you need to let off steam & get your frustrations out.

But, there was no assurance you might have passed the exam nor that you would have gotten a job. Now, if you had one lined up & you were confident you would have passed - yep, you've got every right to be upset.

But, NABP has no responsibilty to you. Their only responsibility with regard to the exam is to be sure it is valid & is an acceptable test of competency. For better or worse, they chose the route they did & there are plenty of others with clout much stronger than yours who have given input (all the schools who have residencies who now have unlicensed pharmacists will need to rework the residency curriculum to compensate for that). If, in spite of those very strong voices, who btw...are being very, very quiet...there must have been something significantly wrong & threatening the validity of the exam.

Unfortunately, this is your first experience with the real world of pharmacy. There are things which are out of your control and this is one of them. There are worse things which may yet to be ahead of you. Wait until you go through a period of "excess" pharmacists & they lay you off - not because you can't do the work.....just because they don't need you anymore. When I graduated, jobs were difficult to find & the tide is turning now slowly toward this same situation. That's why we can be so picky about who we hire - there are lots of applicants who want jobs and you will be competing with them. 3-5 months won't make any difference in job availablity, but I know will make a huge difference in your personal situation.

Are you working as a graduate intern? Our graduate interns are being kept on just as they were prior to this. How did you support your family during the years you were in pharmacy school?

Since you can't change it, perhaps after you've vented enough, you can use your energies to make the most of your graduate intern position (or get one if you don't have one now). At least you can improve your resume, network, gain good recommendations & expand your knowledge.

Good luck & sorry for the situation! I hope you find resources for the next few months & I wish you the best.
 
I did have a job. I have been working as an intern and I just recently stopped taking hours to study for the exam. I am out of intern hours now and I haven't heard back from my company about getting back to work!

In school I did not have a family. I was just a broke college student like most of us! I did get married and started a family and my husband is also a pharmacist. He graduated before me and has been supporting our family. We moved into a bigger home for our growing family and our bills have grown with that. My student loans are in repayment and we have been surviving the past few months on my intern pay and savings. That well is running dry and life is hard.

I realize that the NABP has no responsibility to me however they haven't done a very good job at what their responsibility is either!!! This integrity issue has been going on for years and they have allowed it to happen! They have chosen not to change the exam after the 1994 case and they have not been investigating Dr. Flynn all of these years so it seems to me that them neglecting thier responsibilities is what has left me in this state!!

I appreciate your warning about pharmacies difficult situations, however I would just like to say that this is happening to me now!! And 3-5 months does make a difference in my life though it may not in yours.

This is not my 1st experience with the Real Pharmacy world. As I said my husband is a pharmacist and I have been around pharmacy for a long time. I know that you have been working and have interns of your own, but maybe if you try to put yourself into our position you wouldn't be so quick to judge.

I am not sure when I will have vented enough, but I thank you for trying to decide that for me. I spend each day contacting my current job and trying to get some hours and I study to make sure I am ready for the exam when it is reinstated. I also talk to others who feel abandoned and lost because of this! Maybe it is harder to just get over this than you might think!

Thanks for your best wishes and all of the advise.
 
I think that you are getting my point. If I just lifted the facts from Encyclopedia Brittanica to compose my 5th grade history report then nobody can touch me. Again, facts are not copyrightable but expressions of facts are. E.g., newspaper B can print an article containing facts about an exclusive given to newspaper A. However, newspaper B cannot just copy the entire newspapaer A artcile and print it as their own.
In the example I gave you would be lifting passages and passing them off as your own, not just copying facts. You would be violating the copyright by reproducing the material without the copyrightholder's permission.

When someone says "actual test question", they are referring to the expression of facts, not just the facts themselves. So, things like the same or similar wording and the presence of similar or identical multiple choice answers is inferred.
 
In the example I gave you would be lifting passages and passing them off as your own, not just copying facts. You would be violating the copyright by reproducing the material without the copyrightholder's permission.

When someone says "actual test question", they are referring to the expression of facts, not just the facts themselves. So, things like the same or similar wording and the presence of similar or identical multiple choice answers is inferred.

I could print a story tomorrow in the New York Times that ABC's Lost is a story about a group of people whose plane supposedly crashed on an unknown island or that Kelly Clarkson sang a song about how much she hated her ex-boyfriend. Nobody could touch me if I publish hose story since I am just reporting the facts about the subjects. Same as reporting the questions on the NAPLEX. I am pretty sure that a question like "what are the dosage forms of Prevacid" is not trademarked by or patented to NABP. That's why I said in my earlier post that there test questions are usually low in expressive elements since using flowery language to write test questions will make them uncessary confusing. How many ways can you really ask the question I posted above? If the language is bare-boned then there is no copyright violation since the copying would be copying of the idea of the question itself and not the expressive elements of the question. I looked through the questions list in the complaint's exhibit and the majority of them are less that seven words, written in broken English and are full of acronyms. I contend that this is not a copyright case but more of a contract or trade-secret case.
 
In the example I gave you would be lifting passages and passing them off as your own, not just copying facts. You would be violating the copyright by reproducing the material without the copyrightholder's permission.

When someone says "actual test question", they are referring to the expression of facts, not just the facts themselves. So, things like the same or similar wording and the presence of similar or identical multiple choice answers is inferred.

These things are true.

And there's also a difference between sharing information with a friend or two as nearly everyone does, and printing up lists of copyrighted questions to sell to people.
Talking and selling are two very different things, as are the number of people you may talk with versus the number of people being sold to.

As for financial stuff, it does suck, and I'd be kinda pissed, but there is that whole "don't count your chickens before they're hatched" thing.
 
Wow, so when did this topic become a lecture for the people that haven't taken the exam to suck it up and deal with the situation. All the people that are pharmacists already are saying that the NABP is doing the right thing. I know you would not be saying that if it was you stuck in the situation where you could not get licensed. None of the licensed pharmacists know what the students that just graduated and are not being allowed to take the exam are going through. Everyone keeps saying in plain terms suck it up and deal with it to us! We all know that NABP knew about Flynn for the longest time. This only has to do with money that's it. NABP wants the money and that's all they care about. It has nothing to do with it being a public health issue. How would all the licensed pharmacists like it if NABP disqualified all your scores, because you know that during your time of taking the exam these same questions were floating around then too and a lot of you guys probably did use those questions to study from! So don't go around telling rest of us to suck it up and deal with the unfair actions of NABP!! You guys would be just as frustrated and angry as rest of us if you guys were in our situation. It is easy for you guys to deal with it because you are not effected by it at all!
 
Wow, so when did this topic become a lecture for the people that haven't taken the exam to suck it up and deal with the situation. All the people that are pharmacists already are saying that the NABP is doing the right thing. I know you would not be saying that if it was you stuck in the situation where you could not get licensed. None of the licensed pharmacists know what the students that just graduated and are not being allowed to take the exam are going through. Everyone keeps saying in plain terms suck it up and deal with it to us! We all know that NABP knew about Flynn for the longest time. This only has to do with money that's it. NABP wants the money and that's all they care about. It has nothing to do with it being a public health issue. How would all the licensed pharmacists like it if NABP disqualified all your scores, because you know that during your time of taking the exam these same questions were floating around then too and a lot of you guys probably did use those questions to study from! So don't go around telling rest of us to suck it up and deal with the unfair actions of NABP!! You guys would be just as frustrated and angry as rest of us if you guys were in our situation. It is easy for you guys to deal with it because you are not effected by it at all!

How does one answer this?

When I took the exam - it was not the NAPLEX, it was the CA State Board Exam - 2 days, 8 hours each. One 30 min lunch break, two 10 min breaks - otherwise, no other breaks - no excuses - you DID NOT LEAVE THE ROOM.

I had no study sessions, no review sessions & I took the exam 1 week after I graduated & took my final (oral) exams. I took the exam with people from all over the country. I actually met my asst director during the break on the second day - didn't know this until after I was hired. She had come from NY the day before the exam.

If I had not passed (& I think the OP did not passed the exam on her first attempt), I'd have gone back & done a deliberate & complete review of my third & fourth year. Fortunately, I did not have to do that.

But - that was in the day when the test was given in Jan & June. If I had not passed in June, the next time was Jan. It was a given. I would have had 6 months to review without any choice of an earlier exam date.

As I said before, this has happened before with the Morris Cody incident. The penalities are severe and well known, & those who compromised the exam - all the way up to the Univ of GA or however far it went....are complicit. There is much, much more that is not being said.

But - do not ever say that all of us were in that same circumstance. I most certainly was not & neither were any of the colleagues that I've discussed the situation with (one who is very high in the heirachy in the CA state board system). We frankly did not have these kinds of massive review sessions. Our schools trained us to be competent to pass the exam without a review session. This is as much the school's fault (jointly) as the individuals. This has impacted all the states & the abilities to license graduates, which frankly, is worrying right now. Honestly, how do we ever trust that you do indeed know what you are supposed to know???

You are not the first - nor will you be the last. You don't think I'm affected by it? Well - my corporations and I personally was relying on new grads to do the relief work for the flu shot season coming up and higher hospital census. Now, we don't have relief folks. I actually have days that are not covered with relief people and I may need to work more. Fortunately, I don't work full time, so I can pick up the slack, altho I'd rather not. I had a job for a graduate intern which I had to give to another licensed candidate because he took the exam, but compromised it and now has to retake. Why would I give him another chance? Why did he do something which compromised his exam (a nice way of saying "cheating").

But, the beauty of it is...the market has changed so we don't need people like we used to. The part-time people are looking to work more because of the mortage crunch & we don't need new grads like we used to. This may be just the beginning of the lessening need for pharmacists if we get thru this - so when you really do get licensed, you better be really, really good - not just cocky.

So, yeah - there's not much you can do but wait. It is not about the money. NABP was going to get your money no matter what. But, if this guy has compromised the exam, I'd rather have you know your material rather than memorize what this guy has fed you, because if I'm working the shift after you, I want you to know exactly what you're doing and if not, know who to ask.

The fact that NO state board is coming forward to complain about the actions is telling. I do wonder if there is far more to this than just is being scattered about.

I concede it is hard personally, particularly for those who had nothing whatever to do with this situation - perhaps like myself. I'm licensed & don't want to work as much as I have to, but I do because there aren't enough relief rx. But, ask yourself - professionally, what would you rather have? An organization which brushes outright misdeeds under the rug & impacts the validity of our license & the trust placed in us, or the time & effort it might take to find out exactly how widespread this issue really is (which, frankly, I think is going on right now) and deal with perhaps the wider issue of just giving out blanket & perhaps, faulty, licenses?

It does give you some time to think of what being a licensed pharmacist really means. I know how much some of you want it & I do belive most of you are entitled to it, but - you want it honorably & to be able to stand proudly and say you really are capable of all that your school & the profession expects of you.

I wouldn't want any of your licenses to be tainted with a blemish of a scandal of 2007. I hope this all comes around right & your are all entitled to take the exam and pass and enjoy the fruits of all your labors.

Good luck to you all!
 
Wow, so when did this topic become a lecture for the people that haven't taken the exam to suck it up and deal with the situation. All the people that are pharmacists already are saying that the NABP is doing the right thing. I know you would not be saying that if it was you stuck in the situation where you could not get licensed. None of the licensed pharmacists know what the students that just graduated and are not being allowed to take the exam are going through. Everyone keeps saying in plain terms suck it up and deal with it to us! We all know that NABP knew about Flynn for the longest time. This only has to do with money that's it. NABP wants the money and that's all they care about. It has nothing to do with it being a public health issue. How would all the licensed pharmacists like it if NABP disqualified all your scores, because you know that during your time of taking the exam these same questions were floating around then too and a lot of you guys probably did use those questions to study from! So don't go around telling rest of us to suck it up and deal with the unfair actions of NABP!! You guys would be just as frustrated and angry as rest of us if you guys were in our situation. It is easy for you guys to deal with it because you are not effected by it at all!


I agree with you completely! I started this thread to let people talk about how this is hurting them and what we can do to help!! Instead we just get licensed RPh's telling us how much information we "lack" and lecturing on how it should be more important to have a competent exam!!! I just keep reading about how poorly educated the recent grads are. I am so sorry to hear that SDN1977 is being so poorly treated because of this. You said that you are having to work extra and you don't want too! That is a bummer!! I am trying to figure out how to pay my mortgage, student loans, car payment, and still have enough left over to feed my son. I am not sure if I have a job now at all and I have NO income at all to contribute to my family, but if I were in your shoes I am sure I would be upset.

The point is we all (meaning licensed and not licensed) want the exam to be legit. The problem is that this is affecting us now and we have to somehow deal with it. It just didn't seem to have been urgent in 1994 when Flynn was charged with this, nor was it urgent from 1994 until Aug 2007 while it continued to go on! RPh's have been licensed since 1994 and prior and they took the compromised exam and they are still practicing!!! I just don't see how it is all of a sudden soooooo URGENT!!! Necessary?? Yes!!! URGENT?? NO!!!
 
I agree with you completely! I started this thread to let people talk about how this is hurting them and what we can do to help!! Instead we just get licensed RPh's telling us how much information we "lack" and lecturing on how it should be more important to have a competent exam!!! I just keep reading about how poorly educated the recent grads are. I am so sorry to hear that SDN1977 is being so poorly treated because of this. You said that you are having to work extra and you don't want too! That is a bummer!! I am trying to figure out how to pay my mortgage, student loans, car payment, and still have enough left over to feed my son. I am not sure if I have a job now at all and I have NO income at all to contribute to my family, but if I were in your shoes I am sure I would be upset.

The point is we all (meaning licensed and not licensed) want the exam to be legit. The problem is that this is affecting us now and we have to somehow deal with it. It just didn't seem to have been urgent in 1994 when Flynn was charged with this, nor was it urgent from 1994 until Aug 2007 while it continued to go on! RPh's have been licensed since 1994 and prior and they took the compromised exam and they are still practicing!!! I just don't see how it is all of a sudden soooooo URGENT!!! Necessary?? Yes!!! URGENT?? NO!!!

Didn't I read where you have taken the exam twice already?

What is the urgency now?

It seems some time and thoughtful studying might be of more help than frantic appeals for retribution.

But, indeed, that is just me. And,no, I'm not poorly treated. I could easily refuse the extra days my employers ask me to work. There are plenty of licensed pharmacists currently available - my employers just like to have familiar faces. As I stated, there is not the dire need for pharmacists anymore in my area. Surprisingly, there are lots who want to work extra.

No worries on my part - just not much sympathy for the frantic need to have what seems to be a particularly widespread issue not be addressed when it has now become very, very public.

You could work as a graduate intern or a tech - those jobs are still out there & you'd be uniquely qualified. There is always that path to take while you continue to study, which is the path I would take if I had taken & not passed twice.

But, each of us needs to make our own choices. I certainly would not tell you what to do. Its just the NABP which is telling you what you cannot do.

Again - good luck!
 
And,no, I'm not poorly treated. I could easily refuse the extra days my employers ask me to work. There are plenty of licensed pharmacists currently available - my employers just like to have familiar faces. As I stated, there is not the dire need for pharmacists anymore in my area. Surprisingly, there are lots who want to work extra.


So which one is it really... is there not enough relief pharmacists or are there too many pharmacists in your area?? You seem to be contradicting yourself in your two previous posts. Or are you trying to say that you are the only competent pharmacist left in your area??
 
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