Let's get some discussion going here

[RSalha17]

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Hi all,

I am wondering if you guys can provide some of your thoughts on this issue.

Dental schools always ensure that a student they admit is socially conscious, willing to work for the community and serve the underserved, help others, has a strong understanding of the profession, etc.

There are millions of people each year that are denied dental health care, and among many other reasons, one could argue it is because some dentists do not accept government insurance, are out to make as much money as possible, don't work in community clinics, etc.

IMO, dental schools are partly to blame for the underserved not being served. A student who has a 4.0 and stellar test scores are almost automatically admitted to top dental schools in the country regardless of their EC's, and time shadowing. I have seen students on SDN and personally know students who got admitted into great schools with 5 hours of shadowing and little time spent doing community service, yet schools are accepting these applicants.

My question is, why? Is it because schools want to up their reputation by increasing their average GPA/DAT of their students? Or is it because they are almost certain that these student's wont fail out of school and therefore their dropout rate wont be affected?

I'm not saying that all students with great stats haven't volunteered or shadowed, and are greedy and only out for money, won't serve others in need in the future, etc. so please don't get me wrong here. I also understand dentists can do whatever they want and practice however they want. Dentists spend a lot of time in school and hundreds of thousands of dollars on their education so it is fully understandable that they deserve to make money and live comfortably. However, it is obvious that schools are much more willing to accept students with a stellar gpa and test scores that haven't shown that they are fully dedicated to serving their community, and less willing to accept students who may have a little bit lower gpa but have shown that they are fully conscious of what needs to be done to combat issues regarding underserved communities and have spent many hours shadowing and volunteering in their community.

Thanks for your thoughts and Merry Christmas,

-Rsalha

***DISCLAIMER - Please read everything I say in this post and don't take what I'm saying out of context. I don't think all students with good grades are only out for money and will make bad dentists, nor do I think this applies to all schools in the country. I'm just saying that we continue to see a problem with an abundance of dentists in urban areas with private practices, and fewer dentists who work in rural areas. Also, there are obviously many other issues that contribute to underprivileged patients finding care, but this is one issue that I think may contribute to the problem.

 

[tooth knockn]

Hi all,

I am wondering if you guys can provide some of your thoughts on this issue.

Dental schools always ensure that a student they admit is socially conscious, willing to work for the community and serve the underserved, help others, has a strong understanding of the profession, etc.

There are millions of people each year that are denied dental health care, and among many other reasons, one could argue it is because some dentists do not accept government insurance, are out to make as much money as possible, don't work in community clinics, etc.

IMO, dental schools are partly to blame for the underserved not being served. A student who has a 4.0 and stellar test scores are almost automatically admitted to top dental schools in the country regardless of their EC's, and time shadowing. I have seen students on SDN and personally know students who got admitted into great schools with 5 hours of shadowing and little time spent doing community service, yet schools are accepting these applicants.

My question is, why? Is it because schools want to up their reputation by increasing their average GPA/DAT of their students? Or is it because they are almost certain that these student's wont fail out of school and therefore their dropout rate wont be affected?

I'm not saying that all students with great stats haven't volunteered or shadowed, and are greedy and only out for money, won't serve others in need in the future, etc. so please don't get me wrong here. I also understand dentists can do whatever they want and practice however they want. Dentists spend a lot of time in school and hundreds of thousands of dollars on their education so it is fully understandable that they deserve to make money and live comfortably. However, it is obvious that schools are much more willing to accept students with a stellar gpa and test scores that haven't shown that they are fully dedicated to serving their community, and less willing to accept students who may have a little bit lower gpa but have shown that they are fully conscious of what needs to be done to combat issues regarding underserved communities and have spent many hours shadowing and volunteering in their community.

Thanks for your thoughts and Merry Christmas,

-Rsalha

***DISCLAIMER - Please read everything I say in this post and don't take what I'm saying out of context. I don't think all students with good grades are only out for money and will make bad dentists, nor do I think this applies to all schools in the country. I'm just saying that we continue to see a problem with an abundance of dentists in urban areas with private practices, and fewer dentists who work in rural areas. Also, there are obviously many other issues that contribute to underprivileged patients finding care, but this is one issue that I think may contribute to the problem.

nice post,


i agree, but there is really nothing all of us can do , IT IS BASED ON THE INDIVIDUAL AND THEIR REASONS OF CHOICE FOR WHY THEY ARE BECOMING A DENTIST.

a student who is deceiving the school in order to seem better than others who have put in the honest work is the loser who will have to live with a lie.

i want to become the best oral surgeon possible for my reasons and it is not all about the money it mostly for the admiration of skills needed.

this post is thought provoking

interesting

 

[iralex801]

What makes you believe that just because someone volunteers a lot, it means they will they will practice in underserved areas? How can an ADCOM tell if volunteering is truly altruistic or maybe an applicant just did it to make their application look better? My point is you can't tell if someone is more willing to practice in underserved areas in the future.

Plus, I don't believe that it's an ADCOMs primary purpose to find applicants who will work in underserved areas (which can't really be determined anyways). IMO, their purpose is to find applicants who have the capabilities to make it through 4 years of dschool.

It is the job of the ADA/government to provide incentives to work in underserved areas. Because right now, if you work in rural areas, you would make a ton of money. However, many dentists still practice in urban areas despite the fact that they would not make as much. This is because to many, the opportunity cost of the increase in salary is not worth living in the middle of nowhere.

 

[findingnemo13]

Great post. Perhaps part of the problem is the cost of education. It's hard to want to work for free when you're sitting on 200k-400k in loans.

Thoughts?

 

[Msmouth]

I think this is a complicated issue. Who's to say someone who has 100+ volunteer hours is more likely to work with underserved than someone who has only done 30? Everyone has their own motivations and I would bet that if you're trying to get into dental school you aren't volunteering out of the goodness of your own heart. Once you graduate you have lot's of debt to pay off and a certain lifestyle you want to maintain or achieve. Many dentists start out at an office that serves medicaid patients that charges ~$35/filling. You have to work pretty fast to make your production for the day.
I do volunteer my hygiene services from time to time to a nearby charity that serves head-start kids and when I become a dentist I want to do Remote Area Medical once/year. Volunteering and serving underserved people is awesome but at the end of the day I want to make a good living and have a decent amount of time with each patient and not feel that I'm working in a mill.

 

[HeadgearBraces]

This is all my speculation/opinion, but I think dental schools should mostly be at fault. There's the idea of dental therapists to serve underserved areas..which they will clearly move out of asap, therefore not being a real solution. Another problem discussed a lot recently are these dental-mart chains. Supposedly they treat new dental graduates like crap and they promote churning out patients without the proper care for a lower cost than a dentist with their own practice.
I think dental school tuition has become so high, that even Joe Molar who breathes dentistry and community service can't afford to start a practice in an underserved area, he has 300k+ in loans he has to pay off (plus hundreds of thousands of dollars to start a practice). It is foolish to believe that every dentist would be willing to practice where needed no matter the pay, it is a job that took years of hard work to get..but I think dental schools are taking advantage of the government handing out loan money like candy at a parade- and tuition is only increasing. In theory, if a dentist graduate had less debt on their shoulders, they won't get jobs at these dental chains right out of college out of necessity, or possibly they wouldn't move straight to ca$hville to practice. I am curious as to what we can actually do..

 

[tooth knockn]

Great post. Perhaps part of the problem is the cost of education. It's hard to want to work for free when you're sitting on 200k-400k in loans.

Thoughts?

there are ' two thing promised in life DEBT and DEATH. ' ! (i forgot who said this )


Every one (think about this) has a debt , whether a penny ( amount of money) or/and a favor.


nobody has to work for free, but it is important to return to the community/environment

my philosophy

 

[UCLAzy]

i feel like you describe me in your post. i have been accepted to great schools after shadowing a couple hours. these top schools are practically paying for my tuition as well with scholarship. doing poorly or average in class says a lit about a persons character and drive, and I think that is enticing for dental school. and I think while dentists are still referred to as doctors, schools will value academic prowess most since they are the educators. im sure some of the less academic schools would pass me up in a second though. but I only applied to a handful of academic centered schools

I think you just need to realize if you aren't the best you will not have the best opportunities. its like the Olympics...if you're running the 50 yard dash nobody cares that you were the coach for a poor high school track team they care about your ability to run 50 meters in the fastest time

 

[xbite]

I see where you are coming from, but I disagree with most of what you said.

Dental schools' main focus is, and should be, admitting students who they believe will be able to survive the curriculum and are likely to become competent dentists. Most schools do a great job of selecting applicants who are well rounded.

Who you are prior to dental school has little bearing on who you are after dental school. So, the person who only had 5 hours of volunteer work could very well begin to like doing more charitable stuff or community work. Conversely, the kid who burnt himself out with 5000 hrs of volunteer work might have little desire to continue that in dental school.

The reason why there is a large underserved dental population is so multifaceted. It's much more than just selecting candidates who had little or no volunteer experience prior to dental school. For example:

1) dental school is expensive and most people want to make it back as fast as they can.
2) not many people want to live in underserved areas
3) not enough dental students/schools (That's why they've opened up more and are also installing midlevel providers in some states)

 

[RSalha17]

I understand your points about cost of education, but I disagree about the obligation of dental schools. If you look at pretty much all of the mission statements of dental schools, they all say something about graduating dentists who are willing to serve their community and give back as a socially conscious healthcare provider. A significant problem remains with the "access to care" dilemma, and if dental schools aren't to blame then who is? They are the ones that are creating the dentists that will be working in the country, so they do have an obligation to ensure that these people will meet their mission statement.

I do also agree with the fact that volunteer hours don't determine if someone will give back to the community, but I do believe that once you start volunteering because you, "have to," you start doing it more because it makes you feel good and want to continue to give back to others.

 

[Bis-GMA111]

there are ' two thing promised in life DEBT and DEATH. ' ! (i forgot who said this )


Every one (think about this) has a debt , whether a penny ( amount of money) or/and a favor.


nobody has to work for free, but it is important to return to the community/environment

my philosophy

it was taxes and death, and benjamin franklin said it.

 

[Bis-GMA111]

i completely agree, doing a lot of community service doesn't mean that you'll work in an underserved area. a few adcoms have told me that the 'mission statement' of community service doesn't really produce public health dentists..bc at the end of the day, that kind of pay doesn't get rid of dental school debt any faster.

 

[Leeum92]

I think this is a complicated issue. Who's to say someone who has 100+ volunteer hours is more likely to work with underserved than someone who has only done 30? Everyone has their own motivations and I would bet that if you're trying to get into dental school you aren't volunteering out of the goodness of your own heart.

This👍
The application process is so much more than a numbers game(DAT, GPA, ECs, volunteer). Who cares if you have 200 instead of 100? Did those extra hours somehow make you Mother Teresa? You can write about it in your person statement or talk about it in your interview, sure. But in the end of the day, if you think volunteering affects a person to that extreme of a level, you and I live in different worlds. A good work ethic can be seen on GPA and DAT, I dont doubt this. That is why it should be favored over volunteer. You cant do it with half your heart and it's impossible to fake, both of which I have seen boat loads of people do with volunteering. You can't just go through the motions and pull a 3.8+. This isn't the peace core. Smarter dentists make better dentists.
And when did someone become a bad guy for not treating people if they can't pay? Running your business into the ground isn't going to help anyone.

 

[Member902507]

Something interesting I read on the ADA website: "Charity is not a healthcare system."

Therefore, I believe that fresh graduates aren't moving in to rural areas because of the amount of debt they are in, and I blame that on dental schools/the government. The government is quick to hand out loans, but at what, 7.8% or whatever for Grad Plus loans + the initial 4% fee and accruing interest and no subsidies? This is crazy! So many current dentists have said that future dental students should expect to pay double or triple of their initial loan amount--so, if I borrow 400k, I might have to pay back 800k or 1.2 mil, depending on how aggressive my pay back schedule is like. None of this is fair, but this is what I have to live with because it was my decision to enter dentistry.

Furthermore, someone brought up an interesting point that it should be the dental schools' responsibility to make their students want to serve the underserved communities or something--a lot of schools are trying, but they can only do so much. Schools have initiated the community service dentistry in their 3rd and 4th years. An example would be ASDOH, in which you go somewhere for a period of time to provide dentistry to people who lack access to proper oral health, and most of the students at schools like this say that this part of their education was their favorite, because they gained so many skills working in these situations and gained speed and were exposed to various situations. However, how many of these students still go and work in those areas after? Not to sound negative or to put anybody down, I WOULD THINK that very few people go back to serve those communities after. It's not that they don't want to help them, it's that they have better opportunities elsewhere--perhaps it's family, or perhaps a better life style, but at the end of it, I think cost is a huge factor.

If peoples' loans weren't skyrocketing, I'm sure many more of them would be willing to go spend time in other places to help give back. Whether it's a weekend, or a week or something, I don't know, but right now, I think most fresh grads are focused on paying back their debt as quickly as they possibly can.

^Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[warmbroom]

I understand your points about cost of education, but I disagree about the obligation of dental schools. If you look at pretty much all of the mission statements of dental schools, they all say something about graduating dentists who are willing to serve their community and give back as a socially conscious healthcare provider. A significant problem remains with the "access to care" dilemma, and if dental schools aren't to blame then who is? They are the ones that are creating the dentists that will be working in the country, so they do have an obligation to ensure that these people will meet their mission statement.

I do also agree with the fact that volunteer hours don't determine if someone will give back to the community, but I do believe that once you start volunteering because you, "have to," you start doing it more because it makes you feel good and want to continue to give back to others.

Dental schools don't choose where their graduates go on to practice. Their responsibility is to train their students to become competent dentists. If anyone is to blame, it has the be the dentists themselves. They're the ones choosing not to go into a more rural community where there is less access. But that is their right. You wouldn't want the government or dental schools telling you where to practice would you?

 

[warmbroom]

Something interesting I read on the ADA website: "Charity is not a healthcare system."

Therefore, I believe that fresh graduates aren't moving in to rural areas because of the amount of debt they are in, and I blame that on dental schools/the government. The government is quick to hand out loans, but at what, 7.8% or whatever for Grad Plus loans + the initial 4% fee and accruing interest and no subsidies? This is crazy! So many current dentists have said that future dental students should expect to pay double or triple of their initial loan amount--so, if I borrow 400k, I might have to pay back 800k or 1.2 mil, depending on how aggressive my pay back schedule is like. None of this is fair, but this is what I have to live with because it was my decision to enter dentistry.

Furthermore, someone brought up an interesting point that it should be the dental schools' responsibility to make their students want to serve the underserved communities or something--a lot of schools are trying, but they can only do so much. Schools have initiated the community service dentistry in their 3rd and 4th years. An example would be ASDOH, in which you go somewhere for a period of time to provide dentistry to people who lack access to proper oral health, and most of the students at schools like this say that this part of their education was their favorite, because they gained so many skills working in these situations and gained speed and were exposed to various situations. However, how many of these students still go and work in those areas after? Not to sound negative or to put anybody down, I WOULD THINK that very few people go back to serve those communities after. It's not that they don't want to help them, it's that they have better opportunities elsewhere--perhaps it's family, or perhaps a better life style, but at the end of it, I think cost is a huge factor.

If peoples' loans weren't skyrocketing, I'm sure many more of them would be willing to go spend time in other places to help give back. Whether it's a weekend, or a week or something, I don't know, but right now, I think most fresh grads are focused on paying back their debt as quickly as they possibly can.

^Just my 2 cents worth.

If the government really wanted to solve the access to care problem, they would need to do more loan repayment programs for dentists who work in rural communities. This would be a huge incentive since most graduates are incurring upwards of a $100k in debt. I know they already have some programs like this, but they would need to expand the program and increase the benefits if they really wanted to expand access.

 

[Member902507]

If the government really wanted to solve the access to care problem, they would need to do more loan repayment programs for dentists who work in rural communities. This would be a huge incentive since most graduates are incurring upwards of a $100k in debt. I know they already have some programs like this, but they would need to expand the program and increase the benefits if they really wanted to expand access.

I really wish they did have this. I think they have that HPSP or something program? The one where you work for them and they pay back your loans? I was interested in it, but there are such few seats for that program!

 

[CMistry]

The harsh reality is that low-budget reimbursement (medicaid, HMOs/DHMOs) will barely cover your loan repayment these days. Lots of dental students I know loved their rotations in the poverty-struken and rural areas. It's when you get paid $0 from an HMO for doing 5 MODs (back-breaking work) that you realize what type of insurances you want to deal with. I'm not talking about buying a new BMW; I'm talking about paying your bills. I wouldn't point a finger too quickly at your peers.

 

[RSalha17]

Dental schools don't choose where their graduates go on to practice. Their responsibility is to train their students to become competent dentists. If anyone is to blame, it has the be the dentists themselves. They're the ones choosing not to go into a more rural community where there is less access. But that is their right. You wouldn't want the government or dental schools telling you where to practice would you?

I understand that dental schools don't choose where their graduates go on to practice, but they can implement programs that help their students understand the importance of working in impoverished areas. Saying that dentists are the one to blame is a double edges sword, because one could argue that schools are to blame because they are producing dentists who don't work in rural areas.

The harsh reality is that low-budget reimbursement (medicaid, HMOs/DHMOs) will barely cover your loan repayment these days. Lots of dental students I know loved their rotations in the poverty-struken and rural areas. It's when you get paid $0 from an HMO for doing 5 MODs (back-breaking work) that you realize what type of insurances you want to deal with. I'm not talking about buying a new BMW; I'm talking about paying your bills. I wouldn't point a finger too quickly at your peers.

This is a really good point, and that is the whole reason why I started this discussion. I wanted to get some different views about the contributing factors of the health-care dilemma.

I completely agree with you here, and I think that is the major contributor to the problem. If dentists only accepted these patients, they wouldn't have enough money to keep their practice afloat.

BUT, hear me out on this idea. If every single dentist took it upon themselves to do their small part to help combat the problem, then we could be in a much better place. What if every private practice set aside one day a month where they accepted only medicaid patients or government HMO's? They would still be able to make very good money in their practice, and at the same time be able to help underserved patients who need care. There must be 1000 dental clinics in a 50 mile radius of my house, imagine if each one of those offices saw 5-10 patients once a month, wouldn't we be in a much better place in terms of helping to increase the access to care?

 

[Msmouth]

In NJ there are many practices that do "Dentistry from the Heart". It's done once/year and they do a free filling, cleaning, or extraction. I did it once and my last few patients waited 5+ hours to see me. I love this sort of thing but again it depends on the person. It also helps the dentists who own the practice to offer it to existing patients that just can't afford care. They can tell them, why don't you come back on our free dentistry day, instead of giving discounts etc, which is unfair to other patients in the practice.
It's not just the dentist working alone, the dentist needs to pay a staff and would lose money on overhead alone. The government just needs to offer appropriate compensation for care, that's the problem.

 

[warmbroom]

I understand that dental schools don't choose where their graduates go on to practice, but they can implement programs that help their students understand the importance of working in impoverished areas. Saying that dentists are the one to blame is a double edges sword, because one could argue that schools are to blame because they are producing dentists who don't work in rural areas.



This is a really good point, and that is the whole reason why I started this discussion. I wanted to get some different views about the contributing factors of the health-care dilemma.

I completely agree with you here, and I think that is the major contributor to the problem. If dentists only accepted these patients, they wouldn't have enough money to keep their practice afloat.

BUT, hear me out on this idea. If every single dentist took it upon themselves to do their small part to help combat the problem, then we could be in a much better place. What if every private practice set aside one day a month where they accepted only medicaid patients or government HMO's? They would still be able to make very good money in their practice, and at the same time be able to help underserved patients who need care. There must be 1000 dental clinics in a 50 mile radius of my house, imagine if each one of those offices saw 5-10 patients once a month, wouldn't we be in a much better place in terms of helping to increase the access to care?

Why is it important to work in impoverished areas? I think you will find a lot of people that would say it isn't the responsibility of the dentist to ensure that everyone has access to dental care. A lot of it boils down to two camps: is dental care a right or privilege?

The people who think that it is a right will argue that the government should step in to ensure that everyone has access to care. This would require the government to provide incentive (because the free market hasn't provided enough incentive) for dentists to practice in rural areas. It would also require the government to offer more reimbursements for medicaid/medicare cases. From my understanding, most states don't offer enough reimbursement for most procedures (with some exception) to even cover the minimal cost of the procedure, meaning that dentists lose money on each medicare/medicaid case. I think if higher reimbursements were offered you would find more dentists accepting medicare and medicaid.

The people that consider dental care to be a privilege will say that people need to be responsible to get their own healthcare. This includes both access and paying for it. Some consider this to be very selfish, but some of the dentists I've seen with this attitude are also the most generous with their time and helping those with limited/no access and those who can't afford it.

Basically the problem is too complex to be solved by one group, dentists, dental schools, or the government. It will take cooperation between everyone to make a deal that can come close to solving the dilemma.

 

[RSalha17]

Why is it important to work in impoverished areas? I think you will find a lot of people that would say it isn't the responsibility of the dentist to ensure that everyone has access to dental care. A lot of it boils down to two camps: is dental care a right or privilege?

The people who think that it is a right will argue that the government should step in to ensure that everyone has access to care. This would require the government to provide incentive (because the free market hasn't provided enough incentive) for dentists to practice in rural areas. It would also require the government to offer more reimbursements for medicaid/medicare cases. From my understanding, most states don't offer enough reimbursement for most procedures (with some exception) to even cover the minimal cost of the procedure, meaning that dentists lose money on each medicare/medicaid case. I think if higher reimbursements were offered you would find more dentists accepting medicare and medicaid.

The people that consider dental care to be a privilege will say that people need to be responsible to get their own healthcare. This includes both access and paying for it. Some consider this to be very selfish, but some of the dentists I've seen with this attitude are also the most generous with their time and helping those with limited/no access and those who can't afford it.

Basically the problem is too complex to be solved by one group, dentists, dental schools, or the government. It will take cooperation between everyone to make a deal that can come close to solving the dilemma.

I guess this is where our ideals differ. I personally think that dental care, or any type of health care is a right and should be offered to each individual. You're right, this is a very complex problem and can't be solved by one group, but my thinking is if everyone puts in their time, and offers those free dental days once every six months, or once every two months, or once every month, we will be in a much better place. I understand the dentist isn't working alone and has to pay his staff, pay for supplies, etc. But I guarantee you can find staff that are willing to volunteer their time to work one day a month for free, or one day every two months for free. As long as you are setting the right example and implementing the proper leadership, then you won't run your practice into the ground by offering one free day a month, or every two months, yet if every dentist did this it could make a significant dent in your community.

 

[lr2014]

I was born in a country in which healthcare is completely free but the reality of this country is that we live in capitalism, people will have to pay to get dental care and dentists, even if they want, don't always have time to serve the undeserved people/communities. I think that many decades ago that was easier to do but now with the economy is harder and they are not simply making enough to even pay their loans. Now, I am not saying that no one can't do that, some people I am sure want to do it but the reality is rough. The thing is that even though this is capitalism, healthcare should still be a right and in my opinion everything boils down to the way in which the healthcare system works here. There are too many -private- interests in the system and at the end they just end up changing laws in order to still make more money out of everyone. Also, there are too many parties in this problem so that makes it way harder to fix plus the type of government (in which two political parties are always arguing and just end up screwing up people).

 

[KittySquared]

The harsh reality is that low-budget reimbursement (medicaid, HMOs/DHMOs) will barely cover your loan repayment these days. Lots of dental students I know loved their rotations in the poverty-struken and rural areas. It's when you get paid $0 from an HMO for doing 5 MODs (back-breaking work) that you realize what type of insurances you want to deal with. I'm not talking about buying a new BMW; I'm talking about paying your bills. I wouldn't point a finger too quickly at your peers.

THIS.

If every single dentist took it upon themselves to do their small part to help combat the problem, then we could be in a much better place.

Do you really think you're the first genius to have thought of this? Ok, so what do you want to do? You want the government to make it mandatory for dentists to free work where the dentists actually lose money? Lol. I don't know of ANY dentist who can keep his/her door open by treating medicare/medicaid patients. It is impossible. The overhead fees for dentistry are massive - the prophy angles, the air/water syringe etc are all very expensive and when you get less than a few bucks in return for the several hundred you have to pay for your DA, your hygienist, receptionist, electricity bill and such on an hourly basis, you will realize how impossible of a task it is to lay it on a minute percentage of the population to take care of a huge underserved population throughout the country.

Stop looking at the world through rose colored glasses.

 

[UltimateHombre]

BUT, hear me out on this idea. If every single dentist took it upon themselves to do their small part to help combat the problem, then we could be in a much better place.

I think you and dentistry as a whole is really missing the mark a bit on understanding the "access to care" problem. It is much, much more than a financial access to care problem. If someone searches enough, it is not that hard to find a dentist who is on one's HMO plan or who accepts medicaid, especially in major metro areas.

A real major problem is actual geographic access to care. Dentists don't want to live and set up shop in tiny rural and inner city areas. So those people often times don't even have access to a dentist who is remotely close. That is why the future "dental therapists" won't solve the problem, they won't want to live and practice in those areas either.

I recently did a Mission of Mercy event here in Phoenix, where they treated approximately 1500 people of the undeserved population. Hundreds of dentists and hygienists volunteered their time for 2 days, plus the supplies from dental supply companies. It was an amazing experience, however i realized that even if this happened once a month, it wouldn't be enough to help the problem, because it is much more complicated than that.

 

[RSalha17]

THIS.


Do you really think you're the first genius to have thought of this? Ok, so what do you want to do? You want the government to make it mandatory for dentists to free work where the dentists actually lose money? Lol. I don't know of ANY dentist who can keep his/her door open by treating medicare/medicaid patients. It is impossible. The overhead fees for dentistry are massive - the prophy angles, the air/water syringe etc are all very expensive and when you get less than a few bucks in return for the several hundred you have to pay for your DA, your hygienist, receptionist, electricity bill and such on an hourly basis, you will realize how impossible of a task it is to lay it on a minute percentage of the population to take care of a huge underserved population throughout the country.

Stop looking at the world through rose colored glasses.

I am sick of seeing your posts, you are rude. What is the point of laughing or typing "lol" in response to someone else's idea? You ridicule and mock what others post and you need to get off your high horse. Didn't your mom ever tell you if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anthing at all? Next time, post your ideas without the "LOL HAHAH LOL LOL LOL HAHAHAHAHAH LOL " and maybe your idea will be respected and somebody will want to hear you out.

 

[RSalha17]

I think you and dentistry as a whole is really missing the mark a bit on understanding the "access to care" problem. It is much, much more than a financial access to care problem. If someone searches enough, it is not that hard to find a dentist who is on one's HMO plan or who accepts medicaid, especially in major metro areas.

A real major problem is actual geographic access to care. Dentists don't want to live and set up shop in tiny rural and inner city areas. So those people often times don't even have access to a dentist who is remotely close. That is why the future "dental therapists" won't solve the problem, they won't want to live and practice in those areas either.

I recently did a Mission of Mercy event here in Phoenix, where they treated approximately 1500 people of the undeserved population. Hundreds of dentists and hygienists volunteered their time for 2 days, plus the supplies from dental supply companies. It was an amazing experience, however i realized that even if this happened once a month, it wouldn't be enough to help the problem, because it is much more complicated than that.

This is another great point and I completely agree with you. I had previously stated that this is a complicated issue and there are many factors that contribute to the problem, and this is obviously a major contributor.

 

[KittySquared]

I am sick of seeing your posts, you are rude. What is the point of laughing or typing "lol" in response to someone else's idea?

I'm rude because I put you to your place? Haha you're hilarious. I almost pity you a little because you obviously have no real life experience or know how dentistry really works in the real world.

 

[aqz]

I'm rude because I put you to your place? Haha you're hilarious. I almost pity you a little because you obviously have no real life experience or know how dentistry really works in the real world.

Don't start a catfight now.

 

[Bis-GMA111]

the real issue is assuaging the massive dental school debt that people have. the 'mission statement' that schools have for public service is nothing more than a marketing ploy. for instance, find out how many asdoh graduates went to public health dentistry after graduating from 2011 and you'll find that the number is laughable. create more incentive programs and scholarship opportunities. if schools are so 'gung ho' about having students work in underserved areas, make them sign a 2 year agreement that requires certain graduates to work in underserved areas with promise of loan repayment assistance. (or something of the sort). now when dental therapy passes, we'll have an even more saturated market in urban areas and we'll probably all be screwed.

and rsalha, if every dentist did that it still wouldn't make much of a difference---you're not solving the root of the problem. i agree with you that healthcare should be a right, but realize that everything ain't gonna be all 'sunshine and roses' when you're pulling 120k a year and have 500k in debt. i mean i personally would like to have a family, home, and free time.

edit: and i know of one person who accepts primarily medicare/medicaid patients in trenton, nj (which is a very crappy area might i add). her practice is open 6 days a week from 8 am to 9 pm. she still manages to make a decent living but it's tough.

 

[rootz02]

.

 

[RSalha17]

.

 

[RSalha17]

Predent and rootz, another great couple of points. I think a huge problem has to do with the rising cost of dental education. Among many other things, that is continually addressed in almost every post here. When I say volunteer once every month or two, I am not talking about dentists that are fresh out of school with 500k of debt under their belt, I am talking about a dentist who has established him/herself and his/her practice, and can maybe afford to take those days off without a severe hit to their practice.

I am planning on doing an HPSP military scholarship so maybe that is why I look at it from a different perspective. Luckily, I will get out of school with very little debt compared to many of my classmates.

 

[Member902507]

Predent and rootz, another great couple of points. I think a huge problem has to do with the rising cost of dental education. Among many other things, that is continually addressed in almost every post here. When I say volunteer once every month or two, I am not talking about dentists that are fresh out of school with 500k of debt under their belt, I am talking about a dentist who has established him/herself and his/her practice, and can maybe afford to take those days off without a severe hit to their practice.

I am planning on doing an HPSP military scholarship so maybe that is why I look at it from a different perspective. Luckily, I will get out of school with very little debt compared to many of my classmates.

You're super lucky to be graduating with such minimal debt--I'm actually ridiculously nervous about the amount of debt I'll be accruing in the upcoming years.

I think we're all stuck in kind of a Catch-22 situation in a couple different ways. On one side, we'd like to help as many people as we possibly can (including reaching out to those who lack access to dental care), but at the other time, we also NEED (not want) to help ourselves. I read somewhere that there is no TRUE altruistic behavior in life: even community service isn't altruistic, because it makes you feel better as a person if you've done it, therefore you're gaining something out of that too.

The other Catch-22 is, I believe with the correct direction from the ADA and other dental groups, the government could establish better programs to help reduce the disparity between the access to dental healthcare (by providing incentives to dentists, either more loan repayment, etc), but on the other hand, I don't think the dental field wants to have anymore governmental involvement/regulation than it already has.

There's a great discussion going on here (for the most part) and I just hope that after the next 4 years everybody can use this very drive to help introduce change in the world of dentistry (i.e. by getting involved in ADA and all...I'm actually really interested in that), and as a result, certain systems might perhaps be set up to benefit those who don't have dental care and to benefit dentists who choose to go work in those areas, even if it's only for a few days at a time.

Happy Holidays!

 

[Bis-GMA111]

Predent and rootz, another great couple of points. I think a huge problem has to do with the rising cost of dental education. Among many other things, that is continually addressed in almost every post here. When I say volunteer once every month or two, I am not talking about dentists that are fresh out of school with 500k of debt under their belt, I am talking about a dentist who has established him/herself and his/her practice, and can maybe afford to take those days off without a severe hit to their practice.

I am planning on doing an HPSP military scholarship so maybe that is why I look at it from a different perspective. Luckily, I will get out of school with very little debt compared to many of my classmates.

if you're speaking from such a biased perspective, then you should be treading softly when posting about stuff like this.

HPSP or not, that doesn't excuse you from being oblivious. realize that a majority of people will come out of dental school with a crap load of debt (including undergrad loans). have you looked at the average amount of debt per graduating class for different dental schools? not everyone is fortunate to be debt free.

dentists who are already established are most likely close to the point of retirement. yeah, they should prob take an initiative to do pro bono work (and a lot of dentists that i know do), but let's be real...they went to dental school during the 'golden years' and at this point they want to retire.

btw i'm taking the hpsp scholarship so i can see where you're coming from, but everyone's situation is different my dude.

edit: and altruism will only get you so far. with certain professions, i.e. teaching in the public school system, a majority of the jobs are offset with amazing union benefits (for the most part)....so there IS an incentive there. you don't have that with dentistry in that regard. you have to provide everything for yourself. so being altruistic is great (and i'm all for it), but you need to be realistic. if you're fending for yourself with a decent salary and a half a mill in loans...you're fighting an uphill battle.

 

[invictusx]

I am sick of seeing your posts, you are rude. What is the point of laughing or typing "lol" in response to someone else's idea? You ridicule and mock what others post and you need to get off your high horse. Didn't your mom ever tell you if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anthing at all? Next time, post your ideas without the "LOL HAHAH LOL LOL LOL HAHAHAHAHAH LOL " and maybe your idea will be respected and somebody will want to hear you out.

You must be a little boy. Your rudeness towards KittySquared is utterly inappropriate for SDN. Stop mocking KittySquared and reflect on what YOU just said in response and reflect on your loathsome impression on SDN. I think you left us all with a grotesque taste of your inconsiderate personality. What makes you think that this personality will make you a great dentist? I would HATE to be your patient. It is people like you who leave me in utter disgust.

CMistry and warmbroom already know what it is like in this profession. Perhaps you should start listening to those who are more full-fledged than you, young grasshopper. Didn't your mom ever tell you to listen to those who are more experienced than you?

Step one, get into dental school.
Step two, grow up.
The list goes on and on for someone like you.

By the way, you're very ignorant about a lot of things. You need to get a life before pointing fingers and I strongly suggest you learn how to talk to women. Didn't your mom teach you to respect women, just how you should respect your own mom? I'm sure she did. You're just naive, just how you're naive on this topic of interest. Open your mind, kid.

 

[Bis-GMA111]

burn.

 

[rootz02]

.

 

[Bis-GMA111]

he mad.

 

[rootz02]

.

 

[invictusx]

he mad.

Not mad. 😀

 

[Bis-GMA111]

man not you. rsalha. he mad. why? bc he bad.

 

[invictusx]

man not you. rsalha. he mad. why? bc he bad.

👍👍👍

 

[RVCA7]

Because no body cares about shadowing hours and you can be the dumbest kid in the world and have 100000 hours of shadowing. The truth hurts but if you don't have the grades then you don't deserve to be in dental school. People can have goals but you need to be realistic.

 

[Polk]

I just want to weigh in on the whole "dental care is a right" idea.

I do not believe health/dental care is a right. It is certainly a privilege and a responsibility. We have an obligation to take care of ourselves, without expecting others to provide it for us. Considering it a right implies you have the authority to take something from someone else, this being the doctors service at reduced rates or subsidies confiscated from other citizens.

The only rights one have are those that don't infringe on the rights of others.

 

[cwoodds]

I just want to weigh in on the whole "dental care is a right" idea.

I do not believe health/dental care is a right. It is certainly a privilege and a responsibility. We have an obligation to take care of ourselves, without expecting others to provide it for us. Considering it a right implies you have the authority to take something from someone else, this being the doctors service at reduced rates or subsidies confiscated from other citizens.

The only rights one have are those that don't infringe on the rights of others.

Absolutely right.

 

[RSalha17]

 

[RVCA7]

Rsalha u are going to get into dental school. I believe you are experiencing my syndrome of posting threads just out of boredom. U dont want to get banned multiple times lol like someine here lol. Go out and enjoy your Christmas break. No point of arguing with random people here. Majority of them are nerds who get satisfaction from arguing on this site.

 

[RVCA7]

THIS.


Do you really think you're the first genius to have thought of this? Ok, so what do you want to do? You want the government to make it mandatory for dentists to free work where the dentists actually lose money? Lol. I don't know of ANY dentist who can keep his/her door open by treating medicare/medicaid patients. It is impossible. The overhead fees for dentistry are massive - the prophy angles, the air/water syringe etc are all very expensive and when you get less than a few bucks in return for the several hundred you have to pay for your DA, your hygienist, receptionist, electricity bill and such on an hourly basis, you will realize how impossible of a task it is to lay it on a minute percentage of the population to take care of a huge underserved population throughout the country.

Stop looking at the world through rose colored glasses.

I didn't know a eurasian woman can be this saucy... LOL

 

[Bis-GMA111]

b/c creating a new account after being banned every time doesn't make you a nerd either?