Letter of intent, no acceptances

[MaxPlancker]

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Members do not see this ad.

Good luck with all the lawsuits.
It's a subjective process, that's life.
Send a poorly worded letter coming off as a desperate wacko, treat people unprofessionally, expose personality disorders during the interviews, etc. and it shouldn't surprise you that you'll lose ground in your application.



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Il Destriero

Well I certainly hope nobody actually does that LOL.

Indeed that is life.

See now, the stance is changed. Nobody has argued that a poorly worded letter should have a neutral or positive influence. Rightfully, it should have a negative impact. However, the adcoms have indicated in this thread that the quality of the letter essentially does not matter and reflects negatively/desperately/whatever.

 

[IlDestriero]

A LOI when you have no acceptances elsewhere does reek of desperation. What does it add? You'd come if accepted? No ****.


--
Il Destriero

 

[MaxPlancker]

A LOI when you have no acceptances elsewhere does reek of desperation. What does it add? You'd come if accepted? No ****.


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Il Destriero

A LOI is not merely stating the intention of matriculating. What does it add? It also details why you are a good fit for the institution. A LOI with no acceptances, as mentioned earlier, does not smell of desperation before schools find out and after schools find out, it only reeks of desperation if one chooses to view it that way. As someone unaffiliated with the internal process, I daresay it would be nice to examine how a candidate would be a nice fit to the institution before admitting one off the WL.

But forreal bruh, you need to take a chill pill...

 

[MaxPlancker]

This thread with the the below question



The adcoms and other on here have simply tried to make the point that for the vast majority of applicants, LOI rarely matter and could indeed put the candidate in a bad light. If we take the philosophy that an medical school application (including interview) is concise, coherent, and compelling narrative showing a strong pattern of motivation, commitment, and achievement, then an LOI that supports a candidate previously shown pattern can have a positive impact These are the dare I say, rare exception. And I would dare say these are rare enough that there really isnt any way to generalize expect to say that LOI reinforces both previously shown evidence in the application and interview that the candidate truly fits/desires the school and the school fits/desires the applicant.

An example of this would be an nontrad applicant I advised a few years ago. She had a strong interest in global health, which included a long stint in a foreign country in the field. She expressed strong interest in her application showing her previous experience. She expressed this at the interview and the desire for this particular school that had a strong global health initiative. She was accepted at two other schools and waitlisted at this one. She wrote and LOI stating her acceptances and still her strong desire to attend this school for the global health. She got accepted very soon after and was told when she started the LOI had an impact. But why? Her LOI reinforced her strong pattern in her application and interview, supported by her ECs, which showed her motivation, commitment and achievement to a school with an program in the area she desired. The evidence showed she fit the school and the school fit her.

This is different than a typical LOI that simply restates the applicant's strength and desire to attend. It doesnt show both sides of how the applicant fits the school and how the school fits the applicant.

I completely understand where the adcoms are coming from, but they should not act as if their advice is the only valid advice. Exceptions are rare but you will never become that exception if you don't try (of course based on your best judgement using all the info you have available).

 

[P0ke]

Tell them that you're accepted at SGU, but you'll go to their school instead if accepted. They're bound to crumble under that kind of leverage.

 

[Med Ed]

Here's the applicant's greatest fear.....you are looking at the next 10 on the WL, and 9 of them confirmed strong interest. The one who didn't is panicked that that action (not sending something) will be interpreted as not interested or as not needing you that much.

This is one of the two main reasons why I now file such post-interview correspondence in the trash. I do not want to help establish a system of hidden rules that would 1.) unfairly disadvantage some applicants, and 2.) generate more work for people in house.

 

[Med Ed]

A LOI is not merely stating the intention of matriculating. What does it add? It also details why you are a good fit for the institution.

That's what the AMCAS application is for. And the secondary. And the interview.

 

[Med Ed]

On the table in this discussion is what to do about schools that explicitly state they accept and/or want LOIs.

Can someone post or link an example of an explicit statement to this effect?

 

[MaxPlancker]

That's what the AMCAS application is for. And the secondary. And the interview.

Yet, there are pieces of info that may not fit in the areas you mention. Generally, the AMCAS is not for stating how you specifically fit with a school (e.g. as far as I'm aware, you don't have space to put that your so or family member is in this place, in this condition, whatever). The AMCAS mores conveys general fit rather than specific fit. Secondaries are typically very specific with their questions; few schools have no secondary. Interviews can be hit or miss depending on the interviewer. While I agree that the combination of AMCAS, secondary, and interview allows you to get a good picture of an applicant, if an applicant has something else of substance to add (especially after attending the interview and visiting in person), that is reasonable as well. Again, all about perspective and there are multiple, not one absolute.

 

[MaxPlancker]

This is one of the two main reasons why I now file such post-interview correspondence in the trash. I do not want to help establish a system of hidden rules that would 1.) unfairly disadvantage some applicants, and 2.) generate more work for people in house.

Actually that's a pretty good policy because you stick to your belief while not advantaging anyone or hurting them (e.g. people who sent one) with a conscious/subconscious bias.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Can someone post or link an example of an explicit statement to this effect?

Thank you for your prompt response and for accepting a spot on the alternate list at Mayo Medical School. Any significant updates and letters of intent submitted will be added to your file for consideration. The committee will contact you when the status of your application is updated.

This is what I got from Mayo this cycle. Pretty explicit.

 

[Nietzschelover]

This is one of the two main reasons why I now file such post-interview correspondence in the trash. I do not want to help establish a system of hidden rules that would 1.) unfairly disadvantage some applicants, and 2.) generate more work for people in house.

Sounds great, and most importantly, fair. But can you vouch for the others even within your own adcom doing the same? If we knew that all adcoms did this I wouldn't have written a word in this thread.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Can someone post or link an example of an explicit statement to this effect?

There are tons of examples of schools that promote sending updates, either via overt statements and/or by providing a dedicated place on their portals to provide updates. In terms of LOIs specifically, I think GrapesofRath mentioned G'town or GW, certainly Jefferson is an example where extra communications clearly have facilitated IIs, and I've read places like NYMC and I think Emory and others welcoming LOIs. Then there are schools like VCU that explicitly state they do not want them.

 

[Med Ed]

Thank you for your prompt response and for accepting a spot on the alternate list at Mayo Medical School. Any significant updates and letters of intent submitted will be added to your file for consideration. The committee will contact you when the status of your application is updated.

This is what I got from Mayo this cycle. Pretty explicit.

Sorry, my wording should have been more specific: can anyone post an example of a school wanting LOI's, as in stipulating that applicants need to submit them. Not updates, mind you, but LOI's.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Sorry, my wording should have been more specific: can anyone post an example of a school wanting LOI's, as in stipulating that applicants need to submit them. Not updates, mind you, but LOI's.

I don't believe many, if any, schools use that particular phrasing for updates either. Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no schools with mandatory updates or LOIs. If you can link one that would be great. But yes at the Mayo interview, they tell you directly that you should send LOIs if put on the alternate list. Lastly, you are confusing want with need. Wanting something is not equal to needing/stipulating something.

Not sure what your point here is though. This thread has run its course, and it's clear that there is more than just one view on LOIs. There is no way to deny that. I'm not sure if it is ego, blindness from one's personal experience, an inability to consider other perspectives, or something else, but it is kinda comical at this point. Even more surprising is that the response is coming from physicians. I hope you don't get offended when patients tell you they are obtaining a second opinion on issues.

 

[LizzyM]

This thread has run its course, and it's clear that there is more than just one view on LOIs. There is no way to deny that. I'm not sure if it is ego, blindness from one's personal experience, an inability to consider other perspectives, or something else, but it is kinda comical at this point. Even more surprising is that the response is coming from physicians. I hope you don't get offended when patients tell you they are obtaining a second opinion on issues.

What is comical is that at least 5 adcoms from different schools have tried to explain why a LOI from someone holding NO OFFERS is of no consequence and how insistent some pre-meds are that it can be helpful.

If you have no offers and are on a waitlist, a school will assume that you will accept an offer if one is made. No school is going to look at you on a list of applicants with no offers and say,"but he hasn't sent an update or a letter telling us how much he thinks he's a great fit. He might not accept if we offer him a seat." Similarly, receiving a letter that says, "I'm a great fit and I want to attend your school" from someone who has no offers is a waste of everyone's time. In fact, perhaps this thread has run its course as it is a waste of time to argue with someone who suffers from invincible ignorance.

 

[MaxPlancker]

What is comical is that at least 5 adcoms from different schools have tried to explain why a LOI from someone holding NO OFFERS is of no consequence and how insistent some pre-meds are that it can be helpful.

If you have no offers and are on a waitlist, a school will assume that you will accept an offer if one is made. No school is going to look at you on a list of applicants with no offers and say,"but he hasn't sent an update or a letter telling us how much he thinks he's a great fit. He might not accept if we offer him a seat." Similarly, receiving a letter that says, "I'm a great fit and I want to attend your school" from someone who has no offers is a waste of everyone's time. In fact, perhaps this thread has run its course as it is a waste of time to argue with someone who suffers from invincible ignorance.

Indeed it is a waste, but I will give it one last shot here because for the last few years I have respected and looked up to you.

1) Yes, I clearly understood that 5 adcoms from different schools have indicated their stance on the matter on someone WITH NO OFFERS
2) The invincible ignorance is right there: "is of no consequence and how insistent some pre-meds are that it can be helpful"

• You cannot say so surely IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE when clearly that is not an absolute as has been discussed. They are of no consequence at your respective schools, and that is the furthest you can take that statement at that degree of confidence.
• "how insistent some pre-meds are that it can be helpful": what is wrong with providing OP a fair share of the other side of the coin? After all, as you say, "...it CAN be helpful" and that is true, it CAN

3) The entire second paragraph is your opinion on the matter. Sorry but not all thoughts, adcoms, and schools revolve around you.
4) Receiving a letter detailing a great fit is not a waste of everyone's time if the letter is written well. It is a waste when the adcom member thinks it is a waste and refuses to believe otherwise. Perhaps the letter does provide better insight into how the applicant fits into a school.

 

[MaxPlancker]

You know, I'm going to venture a guess as to what is happening here because I've been through it before. The adcoms are well-respected, experienced, and knowledgeable people who one day see that a lowly premed (actually, no longer pre-med 🙂) comes along and goes against their thoughts. Their reaction is, "Wow there is just no way someone that young and immature with no experience can be right and us wrong. Obviously we can't both be right either. We've been doing this for centuries and that's how its done, period!" It is a combination of ego, pride, and experience that creates the "invincible ignorance." Holding degrees, positions, etc do not mean that you are inherently better or more correct than someone without what you have. When a conflict of thought occurs, you should argue it out, not jump down someone's throat as if your way is the only way.

Yea I always felt the new PhDs and Postdocs in my lab were offended when they had to learn from a lowly undergrad but hey, status doesn't mean everything.

But out of a burning curiosity, could you not even contemplate the possibility put forth? What is it inside that makes you so confident that your experience is the only way things are run? I certainly accepted that the adcoms' perspective is how many schools do it, but it is not the sole way it is done.

I like a quote from Il Dest and I think that is the best way to end this: “The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.”

 

[Windsors]

I guess I am beginning to understand what Goro means by
"As someone who has had a tiny few medical students who deserved the guillotine"

 

[DominusAnulorum]

You know, I'm going to venture a guess as to what is happening here because I've been through it before. The adcoms are well-respected, experienced, and knowledgeable people who one day see that a lowly premed (actually, no longer pre-med 🙂) comes along and goes against their thoughts. Their reaction is, "Wow there is just no way someone that young and immature with no experience can be right and us wrong. Obviously we can't both be right either. We've been doing this for centuries and that's how its done, period!" It is a combination of ego, pride, and experience that creates the "invincible ignorance." Holding degrees, positions, etc do not mean that you are inherently better or more correct than someone without what you have. When a conflict of thought occurs, you should argue it out, not jump down someone's throat as if your way is the only way.

It absolutely makes them better in this particular situation. That is the entire point of going to school to get advanced degrees! Degrees plus time on the job gives you valuable experience that makes you better equipped to handle the things you specialize in. When it comes to admissions, adcoms are absolutely more equipped to answer this question than you are. You are an incoming med student, just like I am. And we don't actually know that much. Sure, that doesn't make our ideas invalid. I absolutely agree that one should not dismiss ideas because they come from a less prestigious source. But at the end of the day, a statement in an email from a school translated second-hand on the internet is worth less than the word of adcoms who have been doing their job for several years. You have to work up to being trustworthy and credible. Your opinion is not invalid, but at least acknowledge that it is an n=1 and that your credibility is not what you think it is.

 

[Med Ed]

There are tons of examples of schools that promote sending updates, either via overt statements and/or by providing a dedicated place on their portals to provide updates.

I know about such portals, our applicants can submit LOI's at any time and it goes straight into their file (much like Mayo describes). The issue is that almost none of them get read by anyone. The main reason the portal exists is to prevent an extra 1,000 annual phone calls to the already overworked staff. Applicants can send as much extra crap as they want, we can ignore it, and everyone is happy.

I should point out that updates are a different story.

 

[Med Ed]

Perhaps the letter does provide better insight into how the applicant fits into a school.

If the applicant truly is a good fit, and I'm not talking about a warm fuzzy feeling on interview day, there will be evidence at every stage of the application process, from AMCAS through interview.

Be that as it may, let me pose a scenario to you:

You are in your first year of service as an adcom at a large, private MD-granting school in the US. In mid-March you receive a letter from a waitlisted applicant expressing his sincere desire to attend your school. A glance at the multiple acceptance report shows he has no acceptances at other institutions. What do you do?

 

[cardzkp]

Sorry, my wording should have been more specific: can anyone post an example of a school wanting LOI's, as in stipulating that applicants need to submit them. Not updates, mind you, but LOI's.

Taken directly from the WL on Georgetown portal: "When issuing acceptance offers from the wait list, priority is given to applicants who have submitted at least one letter of interest. The date of the most recent submission is also considered in this process."

Edit: They continue on to say: "Also note that we will not accept updates beyond the fifth update submitted here, and the wait list will remain open until the first day of class on August 8th. As such, you should be judicious in the quantity and frequency of your updates to ensure that you maximize your chances of receiving an acceptance offer."

 

[gyngyn]

Taken directly from the WL on Georgetown portal: "When issuing acceptance offers from the wait list, priority is given to applicants who have submitted at least one letter of interest. The date of the most recent submission is also considered in this process."

Edit: They continue on to say: "Also note that we will not accept updates beyond the fifth update submitted here, and the wait list will remain open until the first day of class on August 8th. As such, you should be judicious in the quantity and frequency of your updates to ensure that you maximize your chances of receiving an acceptance offer."

For the first time, I am beginning to understand @Jalby.

 

[Med Ed]

Taken directly from the WL on Georgetown portal: "When issuing acceptance offers from the wait list, priority is given to applicants who have submitted at least one letter of interest. The date of the most recent submission is also considered in this process."

Edit: They continue on to say: "Also note that we will not accept updates beyond the fifth update submitted here, and the wait list will remain open until the first day of class on August 8th. As such, you should be judicious in the quantity and frequency of your updates to ensure that you maximize your chances of receiving an acceptance offer."

Thank you, this is what I was after. @Jalby was right.

Georgetown is using LOI's as a means of negative self-selection (I mentioned this approach on page 1). Unfortunately it does not give credence to the notion that unsolicited LOI's have value.

 

[GrapesofRath]

For the first time I am beginning to understand @Jalby.

Have other medical schools called G'town out on doing something like this ever to some degree? Theyve made this as blatantly obvious as possible for years. At least some other schools I've seen that might like LOIs are a little more subtle their preferences and dont artificially use LOIs as the primary means of ranking a WL. That could perhaps shield them from criticism; G'town is just asking for others in the profession to shred them with how transparent they are about this.

Also the level of arrogance reeking from that portal statement is, shall we say for a complete lack of a better word, interesting as much as anything to me.

 

[gyngyn]

Have other medical schools called G'town out on this ever? Theyve made this as blatantly obvious as possible for years. At least some other schools I've seen that might like LOIs are a little more subtle their preferences and dont artificially use LOIs as the primary means of ranking a WL. That could make it harder to call them out on it; G'town is just asking for others in the profession to shred them with how transparent they are about this.

The arrogance reeking from that statement in the portal is also, well shall we say, interesting.

This level of pandering is unheard of in my circles. No wonder some of the applicants get the wrong idea.

 

[cardzkp]

Also the level of arrogance reeking from that portal statement is, shall we say for a complete lack of a better word, interesting as much as anything to me.

This level of pandering is unheard of in my circles. No wonder some of the applicants get the wrong idea.

They're already known for this? I immediately got that gut-feeling even when I visited but I assumed all somewhat prestigious schools were like that. Bear with me, GT was the highest ranked school I interviewed at.

 

[GrapesofRath]

This level of pandering is unheard of in my circles. No wonder some of the applicants get the wrong idea.

I guess there really are schools that are more desparate for wanting to be loved by applicants than applicants are desparate for schools to love them. The fact they actively give a specific strategy for pandering to applicants in particular almost kind of makes it sound like some form of satire, parady and/or just a total prank on applicants.

They're already known for this?

G'town has been famous for years for being sticklers about applicants having to reschedule interviews due to last minute unforseen circumstances or not being accomodating to interviewers who cant perfectly fit into one of the offered dates. The response from G'town per the applicants who report this is along the lines "we can easily pick other people to offer an interview you here. It's a priviledge to interview here not a right". Actually ironically now that I think about it that very same response others have reported is what got @Jalby to start that thread.

Really I guess you could say the way they deal with/instruct applicants in general deviates from many medical schools.

 

[Med Ed]

Let's carpet bomb this thread with @Jalby mentions and fill up his Alerts. If we do it enough times maybe he will appear. Like Candyman.

 

[MaxPlancker]

It absolutely makes them better in this particular situation. That is the entire point of going to school to get advanced degrees! Degrees plus time on the job gives you valuable experience that makes you better equipped to handle the things you specialize in. When it comes to admissions, adcoms are absolutely more equipped to answer this question than you are. You are an incoming med student, just like I am. And we don't actually know that much. Sure, that doesn't make our ideas invalid. I absolutely agree that one should not dismiss ideas because they come from a less prestigious source. But at the end of the day, a statement in an email from a school translated second-hand on the internet is worth less than the word of adcoms who have been doing their job for several years. You have to work up to being trustworthy and credible. Your opinion is not invalid, but at least acknowledge that it is an n=1 and that your credibility is not what you think it is.

You missed the entire point. I did acknowledge that I have less credibility etc. My sole point is that there is more than one perspective on LOIs and that it is wrong for the adcoms to promote their single perspective as the absolute for all schools.

 

[MaxPlancker]

I know about such portals, our applicants can submit LOI's at any time and it goes straight into their file (much like Mayo describes). The issue is that almost none of them get read by anyone. The main reason the portal exists is to prevent an extra 1,000 annual phone calls to the already overworked staff. Applicants can send as much extra crap as they want, we can ignore it, and everyone is happy.

I should point out that updates are a different story.

Coolstory but I know 100% that certain schools actually do read the LOIs so your point is not absolute.

Edit: "almost none of the get read by anyone"--completely your opinion, no meat behind that. Don't expect anyone to believe you actually know "almost none" do. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't but you do not know that for a fact.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Now I begin to truly sympathize with populations that do not have a strong voice and the victims of certain police brutality cases. The sole fact that one is not in a position of influence or in a position of experience/knowledge absolutely makes their perspectives laughable to people in those coveted spots. Not only that but the general public has a tendency to side with those people because it is assumed that they have an upright morality and character and experience on the matter. It is bewildering for you all to not even consider the possibility that LOIs can play a role at institutions other than yours. Remember it is only a possibility; nobody said that happens at the majority, is the only perspective, or that is will surely help the OP. Any funnily, when an exception to your story (GT) is brought up, talk begins about how that school's philosophy is incorrect and whatnot. This is going nowhere; when you see other schools such as GT, you will just continue to talk down on them. Believe it or not, the people that run GT are intelligent people who may hold a different view of LOIs. That doesn't make their system poor per se. It only becomes poor when you refuse to accept the truth and blind yourself with arguments that solely support your story.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Thank you, this is what I was after. @Jalby was right.

Georgetown is using LOI's as a means of negative self-selection (I mentioned this approach on page 1). Unfortunately it does not give credence to the notion that unsolicited LOI's have value.

I implore you to scroll back up, read careful and slowly (word by word may help). Nobody has introduced the notion that UNSOLICITED LOIs have value. What has been mentioned is that certain schools are receptive to LOIs. It is in OP's best interest to check directly with his particular school as mentioned in the first page of this thread. Without knowing the OP's particular school, you cannot even say whether the school solicits those letters or not, not to mention begin discussing their value. Every post you have been making lately has blatant inaccuracies--not sure if you just dived in without reading or haven't comprehended the previous posts. Really though, the subtle twists to make it fit your story is amusing.

 

[MaxPlancker]

This level of pandering is unheard of in my circles. No wonder some of the applicants get the wrong idea.

Your word choice reeks of bias. You haven't even stopped to consider the possibility that GT has a valid purpose for running their system a particular way. But the majority don't do that? 🙁 Sorry to bust the bubble, but the majority is not always correct, if there is even a "correct" stance.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Well everyone, time to bounce. Certainly a waste of time as LizzyM has kindly pointed out above. I wish you all the very best and thanks for the entertaining, engaging discussion and the participation of numerous godlike individuals whose mere presence has honored us all. Sorry that I won't respond to this thread anymore but someone has to stop the circular orbit. Continue to support your own notions, bash opposing viewpoints, twisting like pretzel makers, and making fun of those that do not share your perspective. Hopefully OP has made his/her decision by now 🙂

"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is"...eternally, in the bottom of your heart. --Il Dest

 

[Jalby]

lolol. You guys know me well.

No other school actually uses LOI as the PRIMARY ranking of the waitlist. Most places will give you a small bump if you write a letter of recommendation.

I have always felt the Georgetown is really taking advantage of the admissions system and I encourage every candidate to take full advantage of Georgetown. Write 5-6 letters saying you will go there if admitted. If you get an admission, drop your lower schools. Once you get a better offer, drop Georgetown (and don't tell them why). What are they going to do??

They wrote me a personal letter saying I should never be a doctor. They have so many applicants that they won't have time to try and **** you over.

 

[Curioso06]

What does a school do if after looking at 5,000 applications, whittling down to 600-800 to interview, whittle that down to 300-400 after interviews, and have 200 "candidates" that have passed muster by the adcom but only 100 seats. What happens?



Because there is a finite number of seats. Perhaps it better to see this is 200 "candidates" have been voted on and approved by the committee during the course of the rolling admissions. Yet the adcom members know as they are doing this, there are only 100 seats. So Oct 15th, the first day acceptances go out, perhaps only the "outstanding" candidates are offered acceptance. The other approved ones got to formal waitlist or under review for future evaluation. This happens with every adcom meeting throughout the cycle.



This will matter as the workload of applications grinds on and the finite number of interview slots fills up, screening will become more selective. Very highly qualified or desirable candidates will be more likely to make it thru.



That has not been my experience as specific and only reason to either accept or reject a candidate at any point in the process. It may be a factor considered along with other factors.



yes, most schools will purposely not fully fill their actual seats until the 4/30 deadline. This is not a linear or fully chronological process. You be reviewed, interviewed and evaluated at any point in the cycle and sent to accepted, rejected, waitlisted, or under review. Just because you get in the cycle early doesnt mean you get a decision before others.

Does that necessarily mean that all candidates on the waitlist have been approved by the adcom for admission?

Approximately how many of the total acceptances do schools generally offer by the April 30th deadline? I understand they need to make the number of offers at least equal to their class size, but most schools accept 2-3 times more. So is it reasonable to believe that many or the majority of schools extend somewhere between 50 to 75% of the total acceptance offers by April 30th?

Are you aware of any non-rolling admissions practices that favor earlier applicants/interviewees the same as rolling admissions schools do? Even though a non-rolling admissions school releases all their initial decisions on a single day, perhaps they actually make these decisions little by little throughout the interview cycle?

 

[IlDestriero]

Georgetown was the only place I've ever interviewed where every step of the way people rubbed me the wrong way. They don't seem to have much more than a some name recognition (secondary to basketball successes) and location. I was happy to linger on their wait list. It's a shame to see that it's been around 2 decades since my application, and nothing has changed.


--
Il Destriero

 

[LizzyM]

Does that necessarily mean that all candidates on the waitlist have been approved by the adcom for admission?

Approximately how many of the total acceptances do schools generally offer by the April 30th deadline? I understand they need to make the number of offers at least equal to their class size, but most schools accept 2-3 times more. So is it reasonable to believe that many or the majority of schools extend somewhere between 50 to 75% of the total acceptance offers by April 30th?

Are you aware of any non-rolling admissions practices that favor earlier applicants/interviewees the same as rolling admissions schools do? Even though a non-rolling admissions school releases all their initial decisions on a single day, perhaps they actually make these decisions little by little throughout the interview cycle?

I'm at only one school and with rolling admission but here's how it goes:

After interview, the adcom members review the applications and each assigns a numeric score ranging from 1 (admit now) to 5 ("no way"). If there are large spans among the scores, the applicant is discussed. The applicants are then ranked by mean score and included in a master list of all interviewees to date and discussed again before a decision is made to admit now, save for later, or decline. The "admit now" group consists of about half of the number who will be eventually offered admission. This does not favor early applicants who might eventually get offers but not ahead of someone who is better but who interviews later as no decisions are made about the mushy middle until the end of the cycle so an excellent candidate at the end of the cycle will be admitted over someone who looked good early in the cycle but who was not good enough for a straight out offer.

I would still urge applicants to apply early so as to get the best shot at an interview slot, but an early interview is not better than a late one, at least at my school.

And you don't get on the waitlist unless you are good enough to be admitted ... there just isn't enough room to admit everyone who we interview who isn't so terrible we never want to see them again. So, a relatively large waitlist of people who could be admitted if space allowed.

I'd estimate that at our school 90-99% of those who matriculate received their offer of admission before April 30. There was one year that was an exception to the rule because many of those who received offers before the decision day decided to turn us down (major changes gave some applicants cold feet, I guess).

Schools without rolling admission can run things the same way but not release any of the decisions until March. It is the same process, only varying as to when decisions are released.

 

[Affiche]

I guess there really are schools that are more desparate for wanting to be loved by applicants than applicants are desparate for schools to love them. The fact they actively give a specific strategy for pandering to applicants in particular almost kind of makes it sound like some form of satire, parady and/or just a total prank on applicants.



G'town has been famous for years for being sticklers about applicants having to reschedule interviews due to last minute unforseen circumstances or not being accomodating to interviewers who cant perfectly fit into one of the offered dates. The response from G'town per the applicants who report this is along the lines "we can easily pick other people to offer an interview you here. It's a priviledge to interview here not a right". Actually ironically now that I think about it that very same response others have reported is what got @Jalby to start that thread.

Really I guess you could say the way they deal with/instruct applicants in general deviates from many medical schools.

Gaaaah this is simply just not true. Please do not spread that GT has been ''famous for years'' for a policy that has been largely unseen by the interview pool, especially when you haven't interviewed yourself.

For one, it is not uncommon for schools to withdraw your application if they extend an II and receive no response after ample time has passed. Second, of the 12 schools I received IIs at, GT was one of the most accommodating of my hectic work schedule conflicting with interview dates.

Although I withdrew after receiving a cheaper offer elsewhere, I have to say that the staff at GT was fabulous. The only policy I disliked at GT is their requirement of post-interview LOIs (if you get waitlisted), but I suppose they can afford to do this when they have like 25% of the applicant pool applying there and they're looking for a specific fit.

 

[Curioso06]

I'm at only one school and with rolling admission but here's how it goes:

After interview, the adcom members review the applications and each assigns a numeric score ranging from 1 (admit now) to 5 ("no way"). If there are large spans among the scores, the applicant is discussed. The applicants are then ranked by mean score and included in a master list of all interviewees to date and discussed again before a decision is made to admit now, save for later, or decline. The "admit now" group consists of about half of the number who will be eventually offered admission. This does not favor early applicants who might eventually get offers but not ahead of someone who is better but who interviews later as no decisions are made about the mushy middle until the end of the cycle so an excellent candidate at the end of the cycle will be admitted over someone who looked good early in the cycle but who was not good enough for a straight out offer.

I would still urge applicants to apply early so as to get the best shot at an interview slot, but an early interview is not better than a late one, at least at my school.

And you don't get on the waitlist unless you are good enough to be admitted ... there just isn't enough room to admit everyone who we interview who isn't so terrible we never want to see them again. So, a relatively large waitlist of people who could be admitted if space allowed.

I'd estimate that at our school 90-99% of those who matriculate received their offer of admission before April 30. There was one year that was an exception to the rule because many of those who received offers before the decision day decided to turn us down (major changes gave some applicants cold feet, I guess).

When you say that the "admit now" group is eventually offered admission, is it typically the case that they're admitted immediately or are they placed on the waitlist and then accepted later?

Approximately what proportion of interviewed candidates comprise the mushy middle?

You stated that decisions on the mushy middle aren't made until the end of the cycle. What constitutes the end of the cycle? At the end of interview season or in April-May? If a candidate in the mushy middle interviewed early, will s/he therefore be waitlisted until the end of the cycle?

Under what circumstances does a candidate who has an overall score on the low end of the 1-5 rubric get admitted to your school?

 

[Med Ed]

Continue to support your own notions, bash opposing viewpoints, twisting like pretzel makers, and making fun of those that do not share your perspective.

Will do!

 

[LizzyM]

When you say that the "admit now" group is eventually offered admission, is it typically the case that they're admitted immediately or are they placed on the waitlist and then accepted later?

Decisions made to "admit now" result in an offer being extended on October 15 or, after October 15th, the next business day. About half of those who will ever be offered admission receive those offers shortly after interview. That's the "admit NOW!" group.

Approximately what proportion of interviewed candidates comprise the mushy middle?

Maybe 65-70%
20-25% who are interviewed are clearly good enough to be admitted immediately. 5-15% are so terrible that they are going to get rejected, either immediately or at the end of the cycle (philosophical debate ensues as to which is the better strategy)

You stated that decisions on the mushy middle aren't made until the end of the cycle. What constitutes the end of the cycle? At the end of interview season or in April-May? If a candidate in the mushy middle interviewed early, will s/he therefore be waitlisted until the end of the cycle?

For us, the end of the cycle is about 3 weeks after the last interview. We don't call it waitlist until the end of our cycle. We just say "no decision yet".

Under what circumstances does a candidate who has an overall score on the low end of the 1-5 rubric get admitted to your school?

When hell freezes over.

 

[Nietzschelover]

"....as it is a waste of time to argue with someone who suffers from invincible ignorance."

I think both sides feel like they have run up against something impenetrable.

I share @MaxPlancker 's frustration with the dynamics of this thread -- not just the content but the dynamics that I've seen play out on other topics as well.

Aside from things getting personal in tone and ad hominish, I don't think MaxP has maintained any view that is wild or even particularly controversial. He's said a LOI may help (or at least be benign) at some schools. He has agreed that some or even most schools may react to LOIs like an Ebola infiltration.

The dynamic that is most frustrating is the tactic of "OK, prove it to us with links and such," when the poster has zero intention of adjusting his or her rhetoric regardless of the type or amounts of contrary data presented. That happened here and what we saw was an attack on the credibility of a school (G'town including the bizarre idea that G'town, a school I personally don't even like, owes its reputation to distant basketball success), by the tactic of emphasis focusing on this school as a way to silence that other schools also support, endorse, or ask for LOIs, and we also saw more goal post changing with "yes, I challenged you to provide that data, but that still doesn't mean anything about unsolicited LOIs." Or, "OK, they say they'll take them but show me ones that say they actually want them." The dynamic to me smacks of what I've seen elsewhere -- schools average MCATs, show me schools that say they focus on the highest, oh OK but don't believe them because they actually probably don't, etc, etc. These discussions start and seem to end with some having zero intention to adjust an view regardless of what is presented. Not to mention that almost every book by "experts" in this area talks about LOIs and goes through the possible pluses and minuses which no one has denied on the other side of the argument (i.e. they may help, they may hurt, they may be neutral, make sure you know as much as possible about each school's stance, etc, etc).

As for the applicant on WLs while holding no acceptances, of course that applicant is not in a position of strength. No shocking intel there. So maybe a LOI will do squat, but the only real concern should be about whether one hurts or not, correct? And in the applicant's defense, he or she has made the WL, so in theory has passed muster as beyond a threshold to be good enough for admission if slots open up. To answer @Med Ed 's question about what we would do as a first-year adcom with an LOI from a candidate like this, of course the answer depends. What is our school's overall stance and policy? But assuming it's neutral/benign to positive in favor of LOIs, and assuming the LOI doesn't reveal some godawful character flaw, what's the harm? Maybe there is no benefit, but still.... One could think, "Oh, I see this person is desperate and is holding no acceptances, but he did make our waitlist and overall his app is impressive, and gee, he wants/needs us, so he's probably going to come, and we liked the kid anyway, he needs an acceptance, and we're in a position to give him one." Sure, I could say, oh, we must have missed something, no one else seems to like this guy, so he's desperate by definition and I don't want to say 'yes' to a desperate applicant. But here's the thing on that -- you were going to know that and potentially think that with or without a LOI. The LOI may highlight the obvious for some adcoms but the reality is already obvious.

 

[Med Ed]

To answer @Med Ed 's question about what we would do as a first-year adcom with an LOI from a candidate like this, of course the answer depends. What is our school's overall stance and policy?

There is no policy. You are faculty and a full member of the admissions committee, so you can do what you like.

But assuming it's neutral/benign to positive in favor of LOIs, and assuming the LOI doesn't reveal some godawful character flaw, what's the harm? Maybe there is no benefit, but still.... One could think, "Oh, I see this person is desperate and is holding no acceptances, but he did make our waitlist and overall his app is impressive, and gee, he wants/needs us, so he's probably going to come, and we liked the kid anyway, he needs an acceptance, and we're in a position to give him one."

The applicant comes off the wait list in early May, but also gets off the wait list of his state school. He opts to go there.

Time passes, and you are in your second year of service as an adcom at a large, private MD-granting school in the US. In mid-March you receive a letter from a waitlisted applicant expressing her sincere desire to attend your school. A glance at the multiple acceptance report shows she has no acceptances at other institutions. What do you do?

 

[Nietzschelover]

There is no policy. You are faculty and a full member of the admissions committee, so you can do what you like.



The applicant comes off the wait list in early May, but also gets off the wait list of his state school. He opts to go there.

Time passes, and you are in your second year of service as an adcom at a large, private MD-granting school in the US. In mid-March you receive a letter from a waitlisted applicant expressing her sincere desire to attend your school. A glance at the multiple acceptance report shows she has no acceptances at other institutions. What do you do?

What? What if there IS a policy or at least a very well known sentiment that your schools accepts, likes, and/or wants LOIs?

An applicant gets off the WL and later opts for the state school when gets off the WL there? So what? That could happen with or without a LOI. If there's no LOI and you take the person you obviously know they might get off other WLs and go elsewhere. Would you accept the person if she wrote "You are my #1 choice and I will come there, unless of course I later get in my state school"?

2nd year of adcom and get a letter from applicant expressing desire to attend? Well, what do I do with no letter and I see that the person on the WL that we're thinking of admitting has no acceptances? If there's a negative reaction to that, then there's a negative reaction. How does a LOI make the reaction even more negative? You're going to presume "desperation" either way, no?

Which leads to an aside question.....what % of applicants who gain admission only get one acceptance in a cycle? As is often said, you only need one.

 

[Med Ed]

What? What if there IS a policy or at least a very well known sentiment that your schools accepts, likes, and/or wants LOIs?

There is none, just a means to upload documents to one's file, general contact information for the admissions office, and of course anyone can track down their interviewers by email.

An applicant gets off the WL and later opts for the state school when gets off the WL there? So what?

This person took the time to send you a letter expressing a deep, heartfelt desire to attend your school. He referenced the great vibe, the positive attitudes of the current students, the friendly faculty, the beautiful facilities, and that the curriculum would really suit his learning style. He was confident it would be a great fit. And then he went somewhere else.

2nd year of adcom and get a letter from applicant expressing desire to attend? Well, what do I do with no letter and I see that the person on the WL that we're thinking of admitting has no acceptances? If there's a negative reaction to that, then there's a negative reaction. How does a LOI make the reaction even more negative? You're going to presume "desperation" either way, no?

The woman withdraws after receiving an acceptance at a higher ranked school.

Time passes, and you are in your third year of service as an adcom at a large, private MD-granting school in the US. By mid-March you have received a dozen letters from waitlisted applicants, each expressing their sincere desire to attend your school. A perusal of the multiple acceptance report shows no acceptances for any of them. What do you do?

 

[Nietzschelover]

Oh boy.

There is none, just a means to upload documents to one's file, general contact information for the admissions office, and of course anyone can track down their interviewers by email.

I said consider cases where LOIs are consistent with a school's policy/stance.

This person took the time to send you a letter expressing a deep, heartfelt desire to attend your school. He referenced the great vibe, the positive attitudes of the current students, the friendly faculty, the beautiful facilities, and that the curriculum would really suit his learning style. He was confident it would be a great fit. And then he went somewhere else.

Does that mean they were lying? Maybe they meant all that about your school. Are you upset that she went elsewhere? Are you dumbfounded that with no acceptances she sent a LOI?

Time passes, and you are in your third year of service as an adcom at a large, private MD-granting school in the US. By mid-March you have received a dozen letters from waitlisted applicants, each expressing their sincere desire to attend your school. A perusal of the multiple acceptance report shows no acceptances for any of them. What do you do?

How many more of these are you going to do? I would guess that all twelve could really use an acceptance and I'd vote for the best of the bunch.

Why not just evaluate whatever he or she sends you just as you evaluated the rest of the app and/or in the context of his/her whole app?

Most schools have a "Why X?" in their secondaries and/or this is asked in interviews. Are you just as dismissive/suspicious when you read those answers? Doesn't the intelligent applicant apply to 15-20 or 20-25 schools because of the low odds of getting in any one school? Do you think all applicants are lying when they tell you how much they love your school and why in a secondary or in an interview?

Another question for you....an applicant hires you to advice him and he tells you he has no acceptances but is on a couple of WLs. What do you advise him to do? What if tells you he believes one of the schools was a top choice from the very beginning?

 

[Imperius]

How I feel after reading every post in this thread: