Letter of intent, no acceptances

[GrapesofRath]

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I would agree that the likelihood of a LOI in most cases is likely marginal. That said, Mayo didn't have to put those words in their statement. Why would they do that? Do you imagine they did that sloppily or in some accidental, unintended way. If they simply were neutral they could have stayed silent on the topic. Surely you believe they are smart enough to know that including those words would encourage LOIs from the overall group of neurotic, worried applicants who they know are looking for the exact wording or whether there is any wording at all.

I edited my statement a little too late for you to see initially but basically even gyngyn has said that sometimes LOI's can be ok. If someone has an acceptacne at Harvard and Yale but a waitlist at Mayo(very possible Mayo's class size is tiny) but wants to go to Mayo, an LOI might have the chance to potentially have a little benefit. So there are situations an LOI might be of some benefit. It's just these arent particularly common; but if there is a situation where it might be beneficial you dont want to exclude the chance they can be sent if you are the school. It's just the situations they might actually be helpful arent as frequent as people might think.

Takeaway for me from that statement is send an LOI if you want, it wont hurt unless the LOI is of bad quality. But I think beyond that we're extrapolating a bit too much if we say that they are "receptive to them". There are situations where they might be worthwhile for a school to have, but those situations might be pretty rare like a situation I described above.

 

[gyngyn]

I would agree that the likelihood of a LOI in most cases is likely marginal. That said, Mayo didn't have to put those words in their statement. Why would they do that? Do you imagine they did that sloppily or in some accidental, unintended way. If they simply were neutral they could have stayed silent on the topic. Surely you believe they are smart enough to know that including those words would encourage LOIs from the overall group of neurotic, worried applicants who they know are looking for the exact wording or whether there is any wording at all.

Data management. We have considered resorting to the same thing. It saves the staff answering hundreds of queries on the topic. Just set up a dummy file and end the harassment.

 

[MaxPlancker]

The adcoms here simply do not want to hear this. You saying it is for them like a dream that never happened.

Yes it's odd that even when presented with multiple facts 1) email 2) direct words from the chair of admissions there 3) MS2 friend in admissions there, Mayo's stance on LOIs seems up in the air...

Poll any sane person outside this thread and they would probably shake their head.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Well, you seem to be new to the thread so here's my response:

Just because they said they would accept it and put it in your file doesn't mean that they WANT it.

 

[MaxPlancker]

I edited my statement a little too late for you to see initially but basically even gyngyn has said that sometimes LOI's can be ok. If someone has an acceptacne at Harvard and Yale but a waitlist at Mayo(very possible Mayo's class size is tiny) but wants to go to Mayo, an LOI might have the chance to potentially have a little benefit. So there are situations an LOI might be of some benefit. It's just these arent particularly common; but if there is a situation where it might be beneficial you dont want to exclude the chance they can be sent if you are the school. It's just the situations they might actually be helpful arent as frequent as people might think.

When the chair of admissions tells you that you should send a LOI to remain in serious consideration, I don't think the AAMC would interpret that on the CARS section as just for people with have better acceptances.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Data management. We have considered resorting to the same thing. It saves the staff answering hundreds of queries on the topic. Just set up a dummy file and end the harassment.

You are obviously a very serious, very bright guy. Frustrating when you choose to endorse the less parsimonious (and more illogical) explanation even in the face of direct data to the contrary. This creates a scenario where no amount of data, no wording of the policy could actually mean what it says it means. Two posters above who are in the current cycle has stated very explicitly that some schools have been exceedingly clear that they want LOIs.

 

[Lawpy]

That first few pages of pure hostility and vitriol....

Would you guys agree that:

1. LOIs matter to some schools and not to others
2. Never show desperation in LOIs
3. Avoid expressing intents of reapplying

 

[MaxPlancker]

Just because they said they would accept it and put it in your file doesn't mean that they WANT it.

Lol dude. Reread my response. My quote that you quoted was in response to Med Ed wanting an explicit statement stating that some school accepts or wants a LOI. Not accepts only. Not wants only. Accepts OR wants.

 

[Affiche]

Data management. We have considered resorting to the same thing. It saves the staff answering hundreds of queries on the topic. Just set up a dummy file and end the harassment.

I don't doubt that some schools do completely scrap LOIs but adcoms here need to realize that some schools don't. In fact, some schools will emphasize on interview day to send in LOIs. One school in particular told us that their waitlist gets separated into two piles: those who have sent in LOIs and those who didn't. Want to get off the waitlist? Well, you don't have snowball's chance in hell if you haven't re-emphasized your interest in them.

The best advice here is clearly to follow what the school advised you to do on interview day. If they remained silent on the matter, tread lightly.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Data management. We have considered resorting to the same thing. It saves the staff answering hundreds of queries on the topic. Just set up a dummy file and end the harassment.

Your school could simply state all over the secondary, website, portal, etc that your school absolutely will not accept them, does not want them, and will terminate the applicant's candidacy if the applicant does so anyway. Are you suggesting that wouldn't have at least an equal impact in terms of reducing phone calls???

 

[MaxPlancker]

That first few pages of pure hostility and vitriol....

Would you guys agree that:

1. LOIs matter to some schools and not to others
2. Never show desperation in LOIs
3. Avoid expressing intents of reapplying

Yes this is literally the answer to life.

 

[Nietzschelover]

That first few pages of pure hostility and vitriol....

Would you guys agree that:

1. LOIs matter to some schools and not to others
2. Never show desperation in LOIs
3. Avoid expressing intents of reapplying

Never, ever, screw up the order on the pizzas!

 

[gyngyn]

Your school could simply state all over the secondary, website, portal, etc that your school absolutely will not accept them, does not want them, and will terminate the applicant's candidacy if the applicant does so anyway. Are you suggesting that wouldn't have at least an equal impact in terms of reducing phone calls???

It didn't work. We started getting calls to find out if we really meant it.

 

[Goro]

Or work with underserved populations in urban areas.

Yes, we typically do this right after awarding all the bonus points to applicants who say they want to do rural primary care.

And it also doesn't say that it will add any value to the applicant!
That is not a request for a LOI, though. All it says is that any info you send will be added to your file.

Do a search on "LOI" in SDN. You'd be surprised how many people can't follow a simple instruction, or think that they're such special snowflakes, that the rules don't apply to them. See gyngyn's post above.

Sorry, you can't have this one. Schools, as some do, can very clearly state "We DO NOT accept LOIs. DO NOT send them." Surely the adcom at Mayo is sophisticated enough to decide what to include in statements published where they know applicants hang on every word. You think they include that in their statement to save the admin staff? The link between allowing/encouraging LOIs and cutting down on phone calls doesn't even make any obvious intuitive sense. This is an instance where you should simply and graciously endorse that Mayo probably supports/likes/encourages LOIs.

 

[cardzkp]

Would you guys agree that:

1. LOIs matter to some schools and not to others
2. Never show desperation in LOIs
3. Avoid expressing intents of reapplying

Very fair assessment Mr. Lawper. All in agreement say Yea.

Yea.

 

[Affiche]

Or work with underserved populations.

Easyyyyy lol

 

[MaxPlancker]

Not to divert the focus of the thread, but if LOIs are deemed so untrustworthy, how can adcoms put stock in people who want to go into primary care, rural settings, or underserved areas? I actually know people that say that because they know it's a bonus and they don't follow through lol.

 

[Nietzschelover]

1. LOIs matter to some schools and not to others
2. Never show desperation in LOIs
3. Avoid expressing intents of reapplying

There never has been a single second of consideration by ANY poster in this thread that the OP should express even a syllable about re-applying.

 

[Affiche]

Not to divert the focus of the thread, but if LOIs are deemed so untrustworthy, how can adcoms put stock in people who want to go into primary care, rural settings, or underserved areas? I actually know people that say that because they know it's a bonus and they don't follow through lol.

Because people who are genuine about serving the underserved or working in a specific setting typically have experiences to back that up. In contrast, anyone can claim the intent to matriculate.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Not to divert the focus of the thread, but if LOIs are deemed so untrustworthy, how can adcoms put stock in people who want to go into primary care, rural settings, or underserved areas? I actually know people that say that because they know it's a bonus and they don't follow through lol.

They don't...

 

[Nietzschelover]

Not to divert the focus of the thread, but if LOIs are deemed so untrustworthy, how can adcoms put stock in people who want to go into primary care, rural settings, or underserved areas? I actually know people that say that because they know it's a bonus and they don't follow through lol.

This relates to my question about how they could believe anything in the secondaries (and perhaps the primary too) when they know applicants are telling 20-25 other schools why they love those schools so much and are a perfect fit for all of them. A LOI is likely to be far less phony than the secondary essays since by that point most applicants doing a LOI probably down to 2-3 schools versus 25.

 

[MaxPlancker]

They don't...

Well some adcoms above said they award bonus points...

 

[GrapesofRath]

@Nietzschelover

In a letter of intent, should I mention that I'm preparing for reapplication? It's at a high ranked school, where they actually stated during the interview that they were sure anyone who made it there would get in somewhere. I worry that it will make my application look weaker since I haven't yet.

Very first sentence of very first post the idea of mentioning reapplying was brought up as being mentioned in an LOI. Not that it matters but it's just funny how sometimes in this whole discussion we can overlook the very basic post that brought up the entire thread.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Lol dude. Reread my response. My quote that you quoted was in response to Med Ed wanting an explicit statement stating that some school accepts or wants a LOI. Not accepts only. Not wants only. Accepts OR wants.

But you are pushing that LOIs are good things... I was pointing out that Mayo may say they will accept it, but it doesn't mean they WANT it. They also don't say that it will affect you in a positive or negative way.

I'm not sure why you feel you are right about this thing more than the adcoms and others who have actually been there...

 

[cardzkp]

Not to divert the focus of the thread, but if LOIs are deemed so untrustworthy, how can adcoms put stock in people who want to go into primary care, rural settings, or underserved areas? I actually know people that say that because they know it's a bonus and they don't follow through lol.

I actually did this but who really knows how many schools granted me an II/rejected me because of it. I'm guessing it hurt more than it helped and I regret doing it.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Well some adcoms above said they award bonus points...

 

[Nietzschelover]

@Nietzschelover



Very first sentence of very first post the idea of mentioning reapplying was brought up as being mentioned in an LOI. Not that it matters but it's just funny how sometimes in this whole discussion we can overlook the very basic post that brought up the entire thread.

Well, and that is the one point we all agree on.

 

[MaxPlancker]

But you are pushing that LOIs are good things... I was pointing out that Mayo may say they will accept it, but it doesn't mean they WANT it. They also don't say that it will affect you in a positive or negative way.

I'm not sure why you feel you are right about this thing more than the adcoms and others who have actually been there...

I am not pushing that LOIs are good things...I am saying that some schools may be receptive to them and that not all schools think in the same plane as our adcoms...my 2nd post in this thread said this exact thing.

Well, I already posted multiple times that the chair of Mayo wants LOIs if you're to be in serious consideration...and they can't say if it will be a +/- effect until they read it...and assess it.

Actually, if I heard directly from the chair of admissions at Mayo, that is a much better source than adcoms at other schools. Agree or disagree?

 

[Nietzschelover]

But you are pushing that LOIs are good things... I was pointing out that Mayo may say they will accept it, but it doesn't mean they WANT it. They also don't say that it will affect you in a positive or negative way.

I'm not sure why you feel you are right about this thing more than the adcoms and others who have actually been there...

Have you read the last few pages? If Mayo's language isn't enough for you, a couple of current applicants have stated that other schools specifically state they DO want them, and MaxP, a Harvard acceptee, has stated several times that Mayo confirmed WANTING LOIs at interviews.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I am not pushing that LOIs are good things...I am saying that some schools may be receptive to them and that not all schools think in the same plane as our adcoms...my 2nd post in this thread said this exact thing.

Well, I already posted multiple times that the chair of Mayo wants LOIs if you're to be in serious consideration...and they can't say if it will be a +/- effect until they read it...and assess it.

Actually, if I heard directly from the chair of admissions at Mayo, that is a much better source than adcoms at other schools. Agree or disagree?

LOL. Perfect example. This apparent incontrovertible evidence will be interpreted as really a strategy to downsize the admin office during fiscally strained times.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Trust me, I know sarcasm. Your post wasn't even close to sarcasm in its context. I'm not sure why every time someone gets pushed up against a wall, they pull whatever illogical thing out of the ass to save themselves.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Have you read the last few pages? If Mayo's language isn't enough for you, a couple of current applicants have stated that other schools specifically state they DO want them, and MaxP, a Harvard acceptee, has stated several times that Mayo confirmed WANTING LOIs at interviews.

And as multiple people, including adcoms, on here have said that those places are places you SHOULD send a LOI if you are still interested. But that doesn't mean that you should start sending them out to a bunch of other schools that don't implicitly ask for them. This premed neuroticism will just worsen with thinking that they have to do this to get a spot...

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Trust me, I know sarcasm. Your post wasn't even close to sarcasm in its context. I'm not sure why every time someone gets pushed up against a wall, they pull whatever illogical thing out of the ass to save themselves.

I'm saying the adcoms giving people bonus points above (i.e. rural practice or whatever) is sarcasm...

 

[MaxPlancker]

And as multiple people, including adcoms, on here have said that those places are places you SHOULD send a LOI if you are still interested. But that doesn't mean that you should start sending them out to a bunch of other schools that don't implicitly ask for them. This premed neuroticism will just worsen with thinking that they have to do this to get a spot...

Whoa whoa! Quote me where a single adcom said that, let alone admit that some schools can be receptive to LOIs!

 

[Nietzschelover]

It didn't work. We started getting calls to find out if we really meant it.

Unreal. So if you say nothing, or say that you do take them, why would that reduce phone calls (which was your argument).

In the name of what virtue are you defending against this to the wall, and in the face of very specific and direct evidence that at least some schools actually want them?

 

[Affiche]

And as multiple people, including adcoms, on here have said that those places are places you SHOULD send a LOI if you are still interested. But that doesn't mean that you should start sending them out to a bunch of other schools that don't implicitly ask for them. This premed neuroticism will just worsen with thinking that they have to do this to get a spot...

I think we're all in agreement with the second part of this. The point of contention here is whether or not LOIs should be sent at all. Most adcoms on here will say "no! they're just tossed in the trash!" which is frustrating to us applicants who have been told our applications will be disregarded if we don't send in LOIs.

 

[MaxPlancker]

I'm saying the adcoms giving people bonus points above (i.e. rural practice or whatever) is sarcasm...

Yes ok you are correct on that, I went back and reread it and it is sarcasm. But some schools do give some form of bonus?

 

[Nietzschelover]

And as multiple people, including adcoms, on here have said that those places are places you SHOULD send a LOI if you are still interested. But that doesn't mean that you should start sending them out to a bunch of other schools that don't implicitly ask for them. This premed neuroticism will just worsen with thinking that they have to do this to get a spot...

But NO ONE suggested sending them to schools that don't explicitly ask for them. In fact, those of us on the other side of this lovely discussion have said very explicitly that that could be a big mistake, and as Affiche just posted, "tread lightly."

 

[MaxPlancker]

Unreal. So if you say nothing, or say that you do take them, why would that reduce phone calls (which was your argument).

In the name of what virtue are you defending against this to the wall, and in the face of very specific and direct evidence that at least some schools actually want them?

Ego and pride as an adcom lol. In this world, us young'uns can never be right. Old people are the law.

 

[Affiche]

Yes ok you are correct on that, I went back and reread it and it is sarcasm. But some schools do give some form of bonus?

Of course they do. Have you seen Hawaii's or Miami's point systems?

 

[Nietzschelover]

I think we're all in agreement with the second part of this. The point of contention here is whether or not LOIs should be sent at all. Most adcoms on here will say "no! they're just tossed in the trash!" which is frustrating to us applicants who have been told our applications will be disregarded if we don't send in LOIs.

The refusal to acknowledge the latter, even apparently at all costs, is psychologically quite fascinating....which, honestly, is why I get grabbed every time this dynamic happens.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I think we're all in agreement with the second part of this. The point of contention here is whether or not LOIs should be sent at all. Most adcoms on here will say "no! they're just tossed in the trash!" which is frustrating to us applicants who have been told our applications will be disregarded if we don't send in LOIs.

The way I see it, if a school implicitly asks for a LOI, you should send one. If they don't, then don't.

If people start feeling like they need to send one because "what if", then it will push more people to want to send them, and the neuroticism increases. What's next? The singing telegrams as mentioned earlier? Christmas gifts? Where does it end?

 

[Nietzschelover]

Ego and pride as an adcom lol. In this world, us young'uns can never be right. Old people are the law.

Except of course when a crazy old person is arguing with them.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Well, and that is the one point we all agree on.

Funny enough, this has to be the 3rd or 4th Saturday afternoon in a row we've all spent debating some really basic issue for hours at a time. Couple weeks ago it was MCAT retakes and that was a 5 page thread. Last week it was the role of "biological factors". This week it's LOIs. Any wagers on what itll be next week.....

I think the problem with this thread(and Im not talking about you specifically) is people who are stating "LOIs can have value" are debating with ADCOMs who in their experience see these as carrying absolutely no weight except for specific cases. In gonnif's case, he's worked at tons and tons of schools. What do people really want those ADCOMs to say here? If a school gives you a really strong indication they want an LOI use your best judgment and make a decision you can live with and feel is best. Be sure it's actually a strong indication they want an LOI as Mayo's interpretation to ADCOMs vs you vs me vs others was not the same.

Im not sure what good trying to argue with those who say from their experience it has no value in most cases does. It's kind of like the MCAT retake issue a couple weeks ago; if GW is telling you they superscore MCAT scores what good is trying to show this to someone who works at a school where they average and often penalize multiple attempts? ADCOMs ultimately give advice based off their own experiences. I think this thread perhaps should make someone who thinks the "school really wants an LOI" to sit back and perhaps double check or reconsider. The Mayo example is a good one. But if you still feel that's what is best for yourself after "double checking", make a decision you think is best for yourself and can live with. Shouldnt come down to more than this.

 

[MaxPlancker]

The way I see it, if a school implicitly asks for a LOI, you should send one. If they don't, then don't.

If people start feeling like they need to send one because "what if", then it will push more people to want to send them, and the neuroticism increases. What's next? The singing telegrams as mentioned earlier? Christmas gifts? Where does it end?

The way I see it is even simpler. Just ask the school and find out. Lol. Then act according to the info you have.

 

[Affiche]

The way I see it, if a school implicitly asks for a LOI, you should send one. If they don't, then don't.

If people start feeling like they need to send one because "what if", then it will push more people to want to send them, and the neuroticism increases. What's next? The singing telegrams as mentioned earlier? Christmas gifts? Where does it end?

You mean if they explicitly ask for one, right?

 

[MaxPlancker]

Funny enough, this has to be the 3rd or 4th Saturday afternoon in a row we've all spent debating some really basic issue for hours at a time. Couple weeks ago it was MCAT retakes and that was a 5 page thread. Last week it was the role of "biological factors". This week it's LOIs. Any wagers on what itll be next week.....

I think the problem with this thread(and Im not talking about you specifically) is people who are stating "LOIs can have value" are debating with ADCOMs who in their experience see these as carrying absolutely no weight except for specific cases. In gonnif's case, he's worked at tons and tons of schools. What do people really want those ADCOMs to say here? If a school gives you a really strong indication they want an LOI use your best judgment and make a decision you can live with and feel is best. Be sure it's actually a strong indication they want an LOI as Mayo's interpretation to ADCOMs vs you vs me vs others was not the same.

Im not sure what good trying to argue with those who say from their experience it has no value in most cases does. It's kind of like the MCAT retake issue a couple weeks ago; if GW is telling you they superscore MCAT scores what good is trying to show this to someone who works at a school where they average and often penalize multiple attempts? ADCOMs ultimately give advice based off their own experiences. I think this thread perhaps should make someone who thinks the "school really wants an LOI" to sit back and perhaps double check or reconsider. The Mayo example is a good one. But if you still feel that's what is best for yourself after "double checking", make a decision you think is best for yourself and can live with. Shouldnt come down to more than this.

Nobody on our side expects the adcoms to convey anything other than what they have from their experience as adcoms. That itself is very valuable information to us. But can you not see the problem? The adcoms apply their experience as absolutes and refuse to budge a picometer even after the loads of opposing data.

 

[MaxPlancker]

You mean if they explicitly ask for one, right?

If I don't hear a "Oops that's right" or "Yes" or something of that nature, then I will literally roll on the floor...

 

[Nietzschelover]

Funny enough, this has to be the 3rd or 4th Saturday afternoon in a row we've all spent debating some really basic issue for hours at a time. Couple weeks ago it was MCAT retakes and that was a 5 page thread. Last week it was the role of "biological factors". This week it's LOIs. Any wagers on what itll be next week.....

I think the problem with this thread(and Im not talking about you specifically) is people who are stating "LOIs can have value" are debating with ADCOMs who in their experience see these as carrying absolutely no weight except for specific cases. In gonnif's case, he's worked at tons and tons of schools. What do people really want those ADCOMs to say here? If a school gives you a really strong indication they want an LOI use your best judgment and make a decision you can live with and feel is best. Be sure it's actually a strong indication they want an LOI as Mayo's interpretation to ADCOMs vs you vs me vs others was not the same.

Im not sure what good trying to argue with those who say from their experience it has no value in most cases does. It's kind of like the MCAT retake issue a couple weeks ago; if GW is telling you they superscore MCAT scores what good is trying to show this to someone who works at a school where they average and often penalize multiple attempts? ADCOMs ultimately give advice based off their own experiences. I think this thread perhaps should make someone who thinks the "school really wants an LOI" to sit back and perhaps double check or reconsider. The Mayo example is a good one. But if you still feel that's what is best for yourself after "double checking", make a decision you think is best for yourself and can live with. Shouldnt come down to more than this.

You are right about the pattern, and it will continue. The question is why. This very much reminds me of the MCAT re-take discussions. Even when explicit data is cited, some of the adcoms fight to the death that the data can't be real, or "they really don't mean it." None of this would happen IF they simply acknowledged that perhaps some schools consider or want LOIs and some focus on the highest MCAT while still emphasizing their opinion/expertise that most do not.

 

[Affiche]

And as multiple people, including adcoms, on here have said that those places are places you SHOULD send a LOI if you are still interested. But that doesn't mean that you should start sending them out to a bunch of other schools that don't implicitly ask for them. This premed neuroticism will just worsen with thinking that they have to do this to get a spot...

The way I see it, if a school implicitly asks for a LOI, you should send one. If they don't, then don't.

If people start feeling like they need to send one because "what if", then it will push more people to want to send them, and the neuroticism increases. What's next? The singing telegrams as mentioned earlier? Christmas gifts? Where does it end?

If I don't hear a "Oops that's right" or "Yes" or something of that nature, then I will literally roll on the floor...

Well, he's said "implicitly" twice now, so one does start to wonder....