Letter of intent, no acceptances

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Nietzschelover said:
A pretty absurd stance (i.e. are there any US MD schools at risk for not filling their classes?),
Click to expand...

I navigated the medical school application some years back, so I certainly understand the feeling of powerless that comes with being a candidate. Now I have been on the other side of the process, and I have spent my share of time working the phones in order the ensure the people we want will come here. I have high-fived colleagues when we get a strong commit, and I have shared the moments of dejection when strong candidates chose to attend a school other than ours. Being able to fill a class does not mean we have 99% of the power.
 
Last edited:
Med Ed said:
I navigated the medical school application some years back, so I certainly understand the feeling of powerless that comes with being a candidate. Now I have been on the other side of the process, and I have spent my share of time working the phones in order the ensure the people we want will come here. I have high-fived colleagues when we get a strong commit, and I have shared the moments of dejection when strong candidates choose to attend a school other than ours. Being able to fill a class does not mean we have 99% of the power.
Click to expand...
I actually do agree that it probably isn't 99% although I think that number was just meant to convey a message.
 
Nietzschelover said:
None of this would happen IF they simply acknowledged that perhaps some schools consider or want LOIs and some focus on the highest MCAT while still emphasizing their opinion/expertise that most do not.
Click to expand...

Not to reharp that thread but I dont think gyngyn denies some schools use the highest score. I think his point is things arent always as they appear. "Some schools use the highest score only wehn reporting" or "You cant unsee scores" are his big points. People I talk to I know on the other side of the process basically confirm this and everything he's said so me personally I buy it. If you dont want to buy it that's fine and I can see why you dont. But even if you dont agree to with his bottom line point there are valuable things to consider such as "no school can unsee scores" or "different evaluators on a committee view whether or not to average differently".

It reminds me of something else he said a while ago.
"Our school doesnt consider TX applicants becuase we've seen they never attend. But if someone were to call our school, I 100% expect them to tell that caller "we havent heard of such a policy. We consider all applicants"".

The power of being anonymous is you can say things that your school wouldnt want you to say as long as long as we dont know where you are talking about or who you are and I think that power is very valuable for applicants to consider. He gets nothing out of telling us these thinsg that dont sound true at first glance. The only motivation someone might have being annonymous is to perhaps trash their own school. Obviously he never does that. He literally has no motivation to lie to us on an anonymous forum. Even if you dont agree with him, it's relevant to think about why he is telling us this stuff.
 
Trump: We have to give credit where credit is due.

I might agree with one thing he said tonight.
 
Med Ed said:
Your SDN makes noise?
Click to expand...
Yes, my SDN version has been upgraded to provide several features such as: Ability to post acceptance of opposing arguments.

Upgrade yours too, now at: letsbelogical.sdn.wow!
 
GrapesofRath said:
Not to reharp that thread but I dont think gyngyn denies some schools use the highest score. I think his point is things arent always as they appear. "Some schools use the highest score only wehn reporting" or "You cant unsee scores" are his big points. People I talk to I know on the other side of the process basically confirm this and everything he's said so me personally I buy it. If you dont want to buy it that's fine and I can see why you dont. But even if you dont agree to with his bottom line point there are valuable things to consider such as "no school can unsee scores" or "different evaluators on a committee view whether or not to average differently".

It reminds me of something else he said a while ago.
"Our school doesnt consider TX applicants becuase we've seen they never attend. But if someone were to call our school, I 100% expect them to tell that caller "we havent heard of such a policy. We consider all applicants"".

The power of being anonymous is you can say things that your school wouldnt want you to say as long as long as we dont know where you are talking about or who you are and I think that power is very valuable for applicants to consider. He gets nothing out of telling us these thinsg that dont sound true at first glance. The only motivation someone might have being annonymous is to perhaps trash their own school. Obviously he never does that. He literally has no motivation to lie to us on an anonymous forum. Even if you dont agree with him, it's relevant to think about why he is telling us this stuff.
Click to expand...

We all have egos (including you and me).
 
Nietzschelover said:
We all have egos (including you and me).
Click to expand...

I think we're really stretching and distorting things if we are concluding he is telling us these thinks about MCAT retakes nobody would tell an applicant publicly because it fulfills concerns about his ego. I dont really mean disrespect but my first thought reading something like this is its someone trying to use their intellect(and you certainly have alot of it) to justify a pre-determined position not using their intellect to decide a position.
 
Last edited:
I interviewed at Vanderbilt this season and the Director of Admissions told us that, when they go to the waitlist to figure out who to pull, they see how many "correspondences" the candidate has submitted. She said that if a candidate has not corresponded since interview day it suggests a lack of interest and they may be less likely to pull that candidate. This is one school. I heard similar things at a couple others.

This all makes sense, though. Schools are different. Maybe places like Mayo and Vanderbilt get a lot of applicants who are initially only interested in the schools' relative prestige. Cynically, this is a game that they are playing to conserve resources and pride. Less cynically, they want to make sure the candidates are still interested in the school for genuine, substantive reasons even after visiting and picturing themselves there. This will help them select for students who really want to be there for the right reasons, partially because they are very unique schools with unique cultures and settings.

The UCs are uniformly desirable to candidates due to their location, relatively cheap cost, and quality. Intent is assumed. Everyone is thirsty for UC.

DO schools and mid-tier / low-tier MD schools are desirable because they are a potential fit for a very wide range of applicants, some of whom do not have a ton of options. Many candidates are thirsty for an acceptance. Intent is also assumed.

Listen carefully to what the schools tell you. I do believe that "top" schools, especially privates, are competing with each other in such a way that "correspondences" are helpful in some cases (see thread above). There is a lot of horse trading that happens after traffic day, perhaps especially at fancy schools, and any information that might help them minimize movement by identifying the thirstiest candidates CAN be helpful (where suggested and not contraindicated).
 
Last edited:
Nietzschelover said:
Unreal. So if you say nothing, or say that you do take them, why would that reduce phone calls (which was your argument).

In the name of what virtue are you defending against this to the wall, and in the face of very specific and direct evidence that at least some schools actually want them?
Click to expand...
If these things have become part of some school's culture, go right ahead and do whatever they ask and you want.
However, I think it is reasonable explain how LOI's from those holding no acceptances are not helpful.
They use staff time, nobody believes them, they escalate hoop jumping. Everything I can do to reduce them makes this a smoother process for all.
The only place for such a missive is after waitlist movement has started when someone holds an acceptance at a "better" or cheaper school and prefers the waitlist school, if the school permits them.
 
GrapesofRath said:
I think we're really stretching and distorting things if we are concluding he is telling us these thinks about MCAT retakes nobody would tell an applicant publicly because it fulfills concerns about his ego. I dont really mean disrespect but my first thought reading something like this is its someone trying to use their intellect(and you certainly have alot of it) to justify a pre-determined position not using their intellect to decide a position.
Click to expand...

Not ignoring your post, but hesitant about exactly how I'd like to respond while also mindful that this edition of the "weekly debate" no doubt has run its course.

Perhaps 'ego' was too strong and/or the wrong wording. Perhaps I mean something more along the lines of investment in maintaining a certain online persona and/or maintaining a perception of consistency regarding stances that have been reaffirmed over and over. By and large, we know the participants on this site are very bright and certainly very capable of following the data and arguments presented in any given thread. When I see people ignore, dismiss, or rationalize very clear data suggesting at least the partial truth of a minority view or practice I typically feel compelled to ask what that resistance (and recalcitrance) is really all about. We seem to agree that what you nicely described as a now almost weekly event (across multiple topics) must reflect or mean something. One of the elements that seems to be constitutive for these debates is resistance to very clearly presented data that goes against the grain of the majority view. Mind you, acknowledging and at least to some extent accepting that the majority view or practice (whether with regard to MCAT re-takes or LOIs or whatever) doesn't necessarily apply in all cases would by no means negate the relative "truth" of the majority view. In other words, an adcom here could reaffirm the importance and implications of the majority view while still allowing that applicants should consider that there may be cases and situations where, for example, a re-take or a LOI may in fact be appropriate and even recommended. This is also a visceral thing (more than a poor use of intellect as you conjectured above). I'm sure you have experienced this as well....when you're in the trenches in the middle of a thread, you can literally feel posters pull towards you or a view or against you or a view. When that dynamic gets played out over and over (and yes, the same question can be directed at me), it seems natural to wonder what a particular resistance is about. Maybe it's not ego at all. Maybe it's consciously strategic....like acknowledging that the minority thing does in fact sometimes apply would be an overall negative in terms of mentoring applicants and potential future applicants. Maybe it's something else. I don't know. But I do know that it's something.

What I find annoying and in some instances disturbing is when posters deny very explicit statements from schools about their policies and practices, creating scenarios noted numerous times already in this thread alone where posters insist that the statements from schools aren't real or don't mean what they appear to mean. In these denials, logic gets strained to extremes with suggestions like saying Mayo only makes reference to accepting LOIs to cut down on phone calls (and even when posters very specifically have stated that the school's Dean has very demonstrably underscored the importance of LOIs for his/her school....do we really think these posters are lying or not smart enough to understand what they heard?). I can't help but believe that the tenacious refusal to give an inch even in the face of very clear minority data is about something.

I give you credit for not dismissing my posts out of hand. I started out on the wrong foot with you quite a while back, and that was 99% my fault. I also credit you with being willing to push adcoms to elaborate or clarify when you come across something that doesn't make sense to you. The difference between us (I think) is that you seem to accept their answers after you challenge them while stopping short of ever really disagreeing with them. I will disagree with them (while, like you, often also agreeing with them). I'm guessing that difference has to do with our different reasons for being on the site, our different ages, and different calculations about how much weight to give to the adcoms in particular. I do give them a ton of weight, but I think they also are regular human beings who are susceptible to emotions, defensiveness, strategic posting, ego, competitiveness, etc, etc. I don't think they are infallible or presume that when they speak, sometimes intentionally cryptically, that they always have corrected everyone with the last word. I don't think 5 or 6 or even 10 adcoms can speak without exception for the hundreds of adcoms across the country and across schools that may have some different dynamics in terms of how they operate than others. Again, though, my main gripe is when they fly in the face of very obvious and clear counter-data. You, to take one good example, always seem to read arguments and data very carefully, and pretty much without fail you will try to account for different data and different views. I don't always agree, but I've come to appreciate that you generally don't avoid or continually resist strong minority data. The latter is what really gets under my skin, and I find myself wondering why they don't at least sometimes respond more like you do, quite frankly, accounting for the alternative data in a way that isn't just cryptic and isn't just an almost flippant batting away of data instead of genuine and more generous consideration and accounting of that data.
 
Last edited:
Nietzschelover said:
Not ignoring your post, but hesitant about exactly how I'd like to respond while also mindful that this edition of the "weekly debate" no doubt has run its course.

Perhaps 'ego' was too strong and/or the wrong wording. Perhaps I mean something more along the lines of investment in maintaining a certain online persona and/or maintaining a perception of consistency regarding stances that have been reaffirmed over and over. By and large, we know we the participants on this site are very bright and certainly very capable of following the data and arguments presented in any given thread. When I see people ignore, dismiss, or rationalize very clear data suggesting at least the partial truth of a minority view or practice I typically feel compelled to ask what that resistance (and recalcitrance) is really all about. We seem to agree that what you nicely described as a now almost weekly event (across multiple topics) must reflect or mean something. One of the elements that seems to be constitutive for these debates is resistance to very clearly presented data that goes against the grain of the majority view. Mind you, acknowledging and at least to some extent accepting that the majority view or practice (whether with regard to MCAT re-takes or LOIs or whatever) doesn't necessarily apply in all cases would by no means negative the relative "truth" of the majority view. In other words, an adcom here could reaffirm the importance and implications of the majority view while still allowing that applicants should consider that there may be cases and situations where, for example, a re-take or a LOI may in fact be appropriate and even recommended. This is also a visceral thing (more than a poor use of intellect as you conjectured above). I'm sure you have experienced this as well....when you're in the trenches in the middle of a thread, you can literally feel posters pull towards you or a view or against you or a view. When that dynamic gets played out over and over (and yes, the same question can be directed at me), it seems to natural to wonder what a particular resistance is about. Maybe it's not ego at all. Maybe it's consciously strategic....like acknowledging that the minority thing does in fact sometimes apply would be an overall negative in terms of mentoring applicants and potential future applicants. Maybe it's something else. I don't know. But I do know that it's something.

What I find annoying and in some instances disturbing is when posters deny very explicit statements from schools about their policies and practices, creating scenarios noted numerous times already in this thread alone where posters insist that the statements from schools aren't real or don't mean what they appear to mean. In these denials, logic gets strained to extremes with suggestions like saying Mayo only makes reference to accepting LOIs to cut down on phone calls (and even when posters very specifically have stated that the school's Dean has very demonstrably underscored the importance of LOIs for his/her school....do we really think these posters are lying or not smart enough to understand what they heard?). I can't help but believe that the tenacious refusal to give an inch even in the face of very clear minority data is about something.

I give you credit for not dismissing my posts out of hand. I started out on the wrong foot with you quite a while back, and that was 99% my fault. I also credit you with being willing to push adcoms to elaborate or clarify when you come across something that doesn't make sense to you. The difference between us (I think) is that you seem to accept their answers after you challenge them while stopping short of ever really disagreeing with them. I will disagree with them (while, like you, often also agreeing with them). I'm guessing that difference has to do with our different reasons for being on the site, our different ages, and different calculations about how much weight to give to the adcoms in particular. I do give them a ton of weight, but I think they also are regular human beings who are susceptible to emotions, defensiveness, strategic posting, ego, competitiveness, etc, etc. I don't think they are infallible or presume that when they speak, sometimes intentionally cryptically, that they always have corrected everyone with the last word. I don't think 5 or 6 or even 10 adcoms can speak without exception for the hundreds of adcoms across the country and across schools that may have some different dynamics in terms of how they operate than others. Again, though, my main gripe is when they fly in the face of very obvious and clear counter-data. You, to take one good example, always seem to read arguments and data very carefully, and pretty much without fail you will try to account for different data and different views. I don't always agree, but I've come to appreciate that you generally don't avoid or continually resist strong minority data. The latter is what really gets under my skin, and I find myself wondering why they don't at least sometimes respond more like you do, quite frankly, accounting for the alternative data in a way that isn't just cryptic and isn't just an almost flippant batting away of data instead of genuine and more generous consideration and accounting of that data.
Click to expand...

 
Nietzschelover said:
Not ignoring your post, but hesitant about exactly how I'd like to respond while also mindful that this edition of the "weekly debate" no doubt has run its course.

Perhaps 'ego' was too strong and/or the wrong wording. Perhaps I mean something more along the lines of investment in maintaining a certain online persona and/or maintaining a perception of consistency regarding stances that have been reaffirmed over and over. By and large, we know we the participants on this site are very bright and certainly very capable of following the data and arguments presented in any given thread. When I see people ignore, dismiss, or rationalize very clear data suggesting at least the partial truth of a minority view or practice I typically feel compelled to ask what that resistance (and recalcitrance) is really all about. We seem to agree that what you nicely described as a now almost weekly event (across multiple topics) must reflect or mean something. One of the elements that seems to be constitutive for these debates is resistance to very clearly presented data that goes against the grain of the majority view. Mind you, acknowledging and at least to some extent accepting that the majority view or practice (whether with regard to MCAT re-takes or LOIs or whatever) doesn't necessarily apply in all cases would by no means negative the relative "truth" of the majority view. In other words, an adcom here could reaffirm the importance and implications of the majority view while still allowing that applicants should consider that there may be cases and situations where, for example, a re-take or a LOI may in fact be appropriate and even recommended. This is also a visceral thing (more than a poor use of intellect as you conjectured above). I'm sure you have experienced this as well....when you're in the trenches in the middle of a thread, you can literally feel posters pull towards you or a view or against you or a view. When that dynamic gets played out over and over (and yes, the same question can be directed at me), it seems to natural to wonder what a particular resistance is about. Maybe it's not ego at all. Maybe it's consciously strategic....like acknowledging that the minority thing does in fact sometimes apply would be an overall negative in terms of mentoring applicants and potential future applicants. Maybe it's something else. I don't know. But I do know that it's something.

What I find annoying and in some instances disturbing is when posters deny very explicit statements from schools about their policies and practices, creating scenarios noted numerous times already in this thread alone where posters insist that the statements from schools aren't real or don't mean what they appear to mean. In these denials, logic gets strained to extremes with suggestions like saying Mayo only makes reference to accepting LOIs to cut down on phone calls (and even when posters very specifically have stated that the school's Dean has very demonstrably underscored the importance of LOIs for his/her school....do we really think these posters are lying or not smart enough to understand what they heard?). I can't help but believe that the tenacious refusal to give an inch even in the face of very clear minority data is about something.

I give you credit for not dismissing my posts out of hand. I started out on the wrong foot with you quite a while back, and that was 99% my fault. I also credit you with being willing to push adcoms to elaborate or clarify when you come across something that doesn't make sense to you. The difference between us (I think) is that you seem to accept their answers after you challenge them while stopping short of ever really disagreeing with them. I will disagree with them (while, like you, often also agreeing with them). I'm guessing that difference has to do with our different reasons for being on the site, our different ages, and different calculations about how much weight to give to the adcoms in particular. I do give them a ton of weight, but I think they also are regular human beings who are susceptible to emotions, defensiveness, strategic posting, ego, competitiveness, etc, etc. I don't think they are infallible or presume that when they speak, sometimes intentionally cryptically, that they always have corrected everyone with the last word. I don't think 5 or 6 or even 10 adcoms can speak without exception for the hundreds of adcoms across the country and across schools that may have some different dynamics in terms of how they operate than others. Again, though, my main gripe is when they fly in the face of very obvious and clear counter-data. You, to take one good example, always seem to read arguments and data very carefully, and pretty much without fail you will try to account for different data and different views. I don't always agree, but I've come to appreciate that you generally don't avoid or continually resist strong minority data. The latter is what really gets under my skin, and I find myself wondering why they don't at least sometimes respond more like you do, quite frankly, accounting for the alternative data in a way that isn't just cryptic and isn't just an almost flippant batting away of data instead of genuine and more generous consideration and accounting of that data.
Click to expand...

Alot to digest here. Some interesting and worthwhile points though certainly. Today's a pretty hectic day but Ill go through this and respond later when I get a chance.
 
If one is on SDN to provide good advice to people like OP, it is imperative that you put the OP before anything else. The best way to advise OP is not to say that LOIs with no acceptances are not helpful, because although they may not be helpful at the majority of institutions, OP's institution may be one of the minority where a LOI (with or without an acceptance(s)) helps. Thus, it should be phrased something like this:

From my experience as an adcom, LOIs do not help an applicant's chances of getting off the WL, particularly if an applicant does not already have an acceptance. However, there are some schools that strongly encourage applicants on the WL to send in LOIs for serious consideration (whether you have an acceptance or not). Thus, the best thing for you to do is find out directly from your school and decide based on that information, or even discuss further with us on SDN.

Edit: Phrased it more nicely.
 
Last edited:
Alot to digest here. Some interesting and worthwhile points though certainly. Today's a pretty hectic day but Ill go through this and respond later when I get a chance.

Nietzschelover said:
1) One of the elements that seems to be constitutive for these debates is resistance to very clearly presented data that goes against the grain of the majority view. In these denials, logic gets strained to extremes with suggestions like saying Mayo only makes reference to accepting LOIs to cut down on phone calls. Again, though, my main gripe is when they fly in the face of very obvious and clear counter-data. I can't help but believe that the tenacious refusal to give an inch even in the face of very clear minority data is about something.

2) The difference between us (I think) is that you seem to accept their answers after you challenge them while stopping short of ever really disagreeing with them. I will disagree with them (while, like you, often also agreeing with them). I'm guessing that difference has to do with our different reasons for being on the site, our different ages, and different calculations about how much weight to give to the adcoms in particular. I do give them a ton of weight, but I think they also are regular human beings who are susceptible to emotions, defensiveness, strategic posting, ego, competitiveness, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

This was already getting way too long so I left out my thoughts on "Ego" but we can do that later if you want.

1) I think one theme that comes across when seeing how differently schools can view the most basic things like LOIs or MCAT retakes is just how clear you can take nothing for granted in the admissions process. Everybody has an opinion, everybody has a different interpretation. And I think the key from my perspective is to take this one step further when looking at these "rules from schools mouths" such as what they post or what they say online about "MCAT retakes "or "LOIs". Subjectivity doesnt just go away because a school publishes something on their site, even if it might sound counter intuitive.

Here are two examples of how someone saying something with 100% confidence not being failproof
1) Your interviewer tells you "I dont think medicine is right for you" in teh interview or "I guarantee youll get in, let me know when you get in if you have questions" only for you to get in with a full ride or not get in respectively. These stories happen ALL the time. Literally ALL the time, Im not exaggerating at all. These people in the interview arent trying to tell you bad info on purpose. It just shows how subjective things are and how people can say things that maybe perhaps others dont agree with.
2) I've used this example in the past to you how I've called the same school asking about multiple MCATs and Ive gotten completely different responses both times. Both of them werent stated without any hesitation, and stated something concrete(ie no lip serivce: one said we average other said we use the highest). Nobody is intentionally trying to give bad info. It's just nothing is concrete including what a school publishes or the hearsay they give at an interview. The more I talk to ADCOMs I know personally about this, the more this idea just becomes clearer and clearer.

This is the thing about LOIs. There is so much subjectivity, we saw that in how we all differed in how we interpreted what Mayo said. The odds Mayo ADCOMs differ amongst themselves vary in how they view LOIs to some extent is high. If you want to argue schools shouldnt give information so confidently that has a chance to not be unanimous at all, that's a separate discussion. But it does happen.

2) There are plenty of things I disagree with ADCOMs on here about. I think Admissions Comittees have created an admissions process that favors "box checking" too heavily. I dont supportAffirmative Action and I dont believe it helps medicine and patients and many of the pro-AA arguments I see on here even from smart people IMHO are complete garbage. These are hardly the only examples.

What I acknowledge though is there is limited value past a point in continuing to bring up these points and having these debates with ADCOMs. I rarely talk about affirmative action anymore. And I think past a point you can see someone's answers, see their perspective and see there just isnt much value in continuing a conversation. This happens frequently with ADCOMs; therell be a post full of things I completely disagree with and think can be challenged but just let go and end the discussion on. There just comes a point where a discussion isnt fruitful or beneficial anymore. I think we might recognize those points of a discussion at different times, which is fine, but it's just a matter of perspective. There many things I dont bring up that I might think because I just see no value in bringing them up and the conversation that might ensue.

This kind of relates to the idea of "giving weight" to what ADCOMs say. As mimelim always says "Admission processes are driven by logic. If something doesnt make sense, question it". That's in many ways the guide I use, I just dont often see the value in repeatedly bringing up the issues to ADCOMs that I dont see as logical. It's self selecitvity in many ways; what Im more likely to post about will be in concordance with ADCOMs views. There are obviously things I dont agree with them about and I dont really put alot of weight in their opinion about; it's just the odds I find value/utility in posting those disagreements and continuing that conversation are low. As for what I use in my logic, I use everything, SDN, what I read, what ADCOMs I know personally tell me etc. Maybe I give more weight to what I hear from ADCOMs than you do, but I think there's more to it than that.
 
Last edited:
GrapesofRath said:
Maybe I give more weight to what I hear from ADCOMs than you do, but I think there's more to it than that.
Click to expand...

At the root of all this is the simple fact that this is an anonymous online discussion forum. Anyone who asks for advice in this setting is getting a sampling of opinions, and the questioner will have to engage his or her frontal lobes in order to determine the quality and applicability of the advice offered. Some folks on SDN may have to forgive me, and possibly some other adcoms, for not prefacing every response with "n=1" or "YMMV", but I hold that truth to be self-evident.
 
Med Ed said:
Some folks on SDN may have to forgive me, and possibly some other adcoms, for not prefacing every response with "n=1" or "YMMV", but I hold that truth to be self-evident.
Click to expand...

If some day I ever become an ADCOM and create an SDN account for it, you can bet n=1 will be the three letters consisting of my signature.
 
Affiche said:
Life goal?
Click to expand...

Being a doc, ADCOM and SDN user as one probably means I'd be kicking serious a** in the first two and feel really self-accomplished to make me want to create an SDN account.

So yeah, that sounds pretty good to me, life goal it is I guess. Looks like I just mapped out my plan for the next 30 years in these past 2 minutes lol
 
GrapesofRath said:
1) I think one theme that comes across when seeing how differently schools can view the most basic things like LOIs or MCAT retakes is just how clear you can take nothing for granted in the admissions process. Everybody has an opinion, everybody has a different interpretation. And I think the key from my perspective is to take this one step further when looking at these "rules from schools mouths" such as what they post or what they say online about "MCAT retakes "or "LOIs". Subjectivity doesnt just go away because a school publishes something on their site, even if it might sound counter intuitive.

Here are two examples of how someone saying something with 100% confidence not being failproof
1) Your interviewer tells you "I dont think medicine is right for you" in teh interview or "I guarantee youll get in, let me know when you get in if you have questions" only for you to get in with a full ride or not get in respectively. These stories happen ALL the time. Literally ALL the time, Im not exaggerating at all. These people in the interview arent trying to tell you bad info on purpose. It just shows how subjective things are and how people can say things that maybe perhaps others dont agree with.
2) I've used this example in the past to you how I've called the same school asking about multiple MCATs and Ive gotten completely different responses both times. Both of them werent stated without any hesitation, and stated something concrete(ie no lip serivce: one said we average other said we use the highest). Nobody is intentionally trying to give bad info. It's just nothing is concrete including what a school publishes or the hearsay they give at an interview. The more I talk to ADCOMs I know personally about this, the more this idea just becomes clearer and clearer.

This is the thing about LOIs. There is so much subjectivity, we saw that in how we all differed in how we interpreted what Mayo said. The odds Mayo ADCOMs differ amongst themselves vary in how they view LOIs to some extent is high. If you want to argue schools shouldnt give information so confidently that has a chance to not be unanimous at all, that's a separate discussion. But it does happen.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I won't comment any further on the second part of your post.

In terms of the first part, I think there is a big difference between an individual interviewer promising something or getting something wrong in terms of what a final outcome is, or how an individual interviewer's view may diverge from an official school policy.

But here's my biggest concern. If schools do, officially, publish certain policies, and if you and some adcoms here are suggesting these policies are often not used or erratically used or whatever, what is the applicant to do? And why do we never pick apart the policies when they say the reverse of what is being questioned and countered? Why aren't we picking apart the statements of some schools stating they average MCATs and suggesting that they may actually take the highest? Maybe those schools just say that publicly to sound in line with the AAMC? We already know that there are other things where schools absolutely do not follow AAMC recommendations. If VCU or Penn State state that they absolutely will not accept updates and such, is anyone telling them to ignore that because they actually really might want them despite what they say? Why do these discussions always seem to go in one direction? The latter is the pattern that I see running across these different topics. The verdict is never in favor of the applicants. They're told they won't get the benefit, that their judgment and/or info are poor, etc, etc. That is the attitude that I pick up consistently in a visceral way.

The applicant who needs a re-take or who has no acceptances or acceptances but a favored choice, what are they to do? They should hear more than they're screwed or that the actions explicitly recommended by particular schools shouldn't be followed because you just can't believe them, at least in the info appears to lean in your favor.
 
Nietzschelover said:
Why do these discussions always seem to go in one direction? The latter is the pattern that I see running across these different topics. The verdict is never in favor of the applicants. They're told they won't get the benefit, that their judgment and/or info are poor, etc, etc. That is the attitude that I pick up consistently in a visceral way.
Click to expand...

The direction of this debate always goes one way because it's about what's in the best interest of the school.

Why would a school mislead about averaging when they really take the highest? If you really want to come up with something perhaps to scare applicants into taking it once. Sounds like we're really reaching though and I doubt anybody has ever heard of such a thing happening. Now why would they mislead about saying they take the highest when alot average? Simple: they dont want to discourage applications. We had this discussion a few weeks ago but now that the new MSAR has come out and just highlights this following point so perfectly. Take this example: the median MCAT of an applicant to WashU is 508(30 on the old scale). The tenth percentile MCAT at WashU is a 34. Tenth percentile. This new MSAR data just gives you an idea of how much schools make off people who have absolutely no business applying. We all knew tons of applicants were clueless but to this extent is revealing. Only 5-10 percent of apps at WashU are coming in with 37+ MCATs. Even if WashU published "We have a cut off of 28 for applicants" theyd lose tons of applications. Now just imagine if a school publishes something less obvious like talking about MCAT retakes and how that might discourage apps?

You can use the same logic for LOIs. The reasons a school has for saying "we dont want LOIs" when they do are pretty much non-existent. For the latter, I can see some. Alot of this discussion just comes down to what's in the best interest of the school and that shapes the direction of the debate.

As for "these things never favoring applicants" plenty of things involve giving applicants the benefit of the doubt. It's again hard to comment on them because if you dont work for the school you dont really know. There are schools that specifically weigh your last 2 years of college heavier for example. People have gotten into med schools in the past despite some fairly checkered records(including things even like DUIs): that involves a benefit of the doubt that favors applicants.
 
Last edited:
GrapesofRath said:
The direction of this debate always goes one way because it's about what's in the best interest of the school.

Why would a school mislead about averaging when they really take the highest? If you really want to come up with something perhaps to scare applicants into taking it once. Sounds like we're really reaching though and I doubt anybody has ever heard of such a thing happening. Now why would they mislead about saying they take the highest when alot average? Simple: they dont want to discourage applications. We had this discussion a few weeks ago but now that the new MSAR has come out and just highlights this following point so perfectly. Take this example: the median MCAT of an applicant to WashU is 508(30 on the old scale). The tenth percentile MCAT at WashU is a 34. Tenth percentile. This new MSAR data just gives you an idea of how much schools make off people who have absolutely no business applying. We all knew tons of applicants were clueless but to this extent is revealing. Only 5-10 percent of apps at WashU are coming in with 37+ MCATs. Even if WashU published "We have a cut off of 28 for applicants" theyd lose tons of applications. Now just imagine if a school publishes something less obvious like talking about MCAT retakes and how that might discourage apps?

You can use the same logic for LOIs. The reasons a school has for saying "we dont want LOIs" when they do are pretty much non-existent. For the latter, I can see some. Alot of this discussion just comes down to what's in the best interest of the school and that shapes the direction of the debate.

As for "these things never favoring applicants" plenty of things involve giving applicants the benefit of the doubt. It's again hard to comment on them because if you dont work for the school you dont really know. There are schools that specifically weigh your last 2 years of college heavier for example. People have gotten into med schools in the past despite some fairly checkered records(including things even like DUIs): that involves a benefit of the doubt that favors applicants.
Click to expand...
That certainly makes sense in the case of MCAT scoring policy. However, the best interest of a school would be to recruit the best possible students to their school. How best is defined would be up to the institution's fit and other factors. The act of sending a LOI should then be considered as neutral and the merits/downfalls of the LOI should be of value. A school could even ignore the LOI from all applicants to make a consistent and fair policy. As one or more of the adcoms mentioned above, a school should trust their judgement of an applicant over that of other schools. Thus, following that logic, the fact that an applicant holds any acceptances or lack thereof should have a minimal impact on a school's WL & beyond decision anyways. To affirm your school's acceptance of an applicant if the applicant was accepted to Harvard and to state that another applicant (who your school rejected) was terrible and somehow accepted to a very fine school is contradictory. Coming back to the LOI and the original scenario mentioned by the adcoms, I don't see how the logic behind claiming that they trust their judgement and then come across an applicant on the WL who has been favored to come off the WL, only to take that spot away from them for sending a letter or for the applicant not holding any acceptances when the committee (that school's own judgement) has determined that student is worthy.

Edit: Also, imagine that you have an applicant who had a serious family problem etc come up post-interview, pre-decision and he decides to let the school know. If that applicant were one of the best a school had, flagging that applicant as being "desperate" and rejecting them would not be in the best interest of a school.
 
Last edited:
MaxPlancker said:
Edit: Also, imagine that you have an applicant who had a serious family problem etc come up post-interview, pre-decision and he decides to let the school know. If that applicant were one of the best a school had, flagging that applicant as being "desperate" and rejecting them would not be in the best interest of a school.
Click to expand...
That would be a relevant update not a letter of intent, even if you added the latter as part of the update. That would be the best thing to do. Unfortunately, most people probably don't have useful and relevant updates.

--
Il Destriero
 
Last edited:
IlDestriero said:
That would be an relevant update not a letter of intent, even if you said added the latter as part of the update. That would be the best thing to do. Unfortunately, most people probably don't have useful and relevant updates.


--
Il Destriero
Click to expand...
I see, but most applicants are (perhaps wrongly) informed that updates are accomplishments, not personal issues. That's why a lot of people use the LOI, to explain circumstances such as that.
 
If someone got waitlisted for medical school but got an acceptance for a PhD program? Should that person inform the school? Would they take that into consideration or is it apples and oranges?
 
GrumpyMS said:
If someone got waitlisted for medical school but got an acceptance for a PhD program? Should that person inform the school? Would they take that into consideration or is it apples and oranges?
Click to expand...
Doubt they would care as they are unrelated. PhD admissions is also much less competitive in general.
 
MaxPlancker said:
Doubt they would care as they are unrelated. PhD admissions is also much less competitive in general.
Click to expand...

Really depends on the school. Some of the top 10 PhD programs in the biomedical sciences are just as selective as top med schools
 
GrumpyMS said:
If someone got waitlisted for medical school but got an acceptance for a PhD program? Should that person inform the school? Would they take that into consideration or is it apples and oranges?
Click to expand...

Do you want to be a physician or a PhD? I'd find it confusing that someone would have enough passion to apply for and be admitted to a 6-7 year training program in natural science (I'm presuming it is this and not philosophy or economics, etc) or be just as happy being an MD. Furthermore, would you go to the PhD program and stick it out if you didn't have a MD offer this year? Would you rather do this than reapply? Or is this your reapplication year?

Do you have an offer to any medical school? do you want med school more than anything else? If med school is your desire and you have no offers to medical school, but have been waitlisted, the schools will know you have no offers to medical schools and will presume that you will attend if offered a spot off the waitlist. If you are thinking that you'd rather go to the PhD program, please withdraw your application from the medical school.
 
Last edited:
This is a reapplication. I do want to become a physician. The PhD program is a plan B for this year. The PhD program is with the PI that I did my Masters in. Since I have a good relation with the people there, I felt like I can could grind through the program.
 
GrumpyMS said:
This is a reapplication. I do want to become a physician. The PhD program is a plan B for this year. The PhD program is with the PI that I did my Masters in. Since I have a good relation with the people there, I felt like I can could grind through the program.
Click to expand...
Lol dood you are gonna have one helluva bad time doing a PhD if you don't want to be doing it. Why "grind" through it if medicine is what you really want to do? You can reinvent yourself over time and get back at it, it's not a sprint.
 
MaxPlancker said:
Lol dood you are gonna have one helluva bad time doing a PhD if you don't want to be doing it. Why "grind" through it if medicine is what you really want to do? You can reinvent yourself over time and get back at it, it's not a sprint.
Click to expand...
It is not like I hate doing it. I enjoyed doing research but I prefer choosing medicine if given the choice.
 
GrumpyMS said:
This is a reapplication. I do want to become a physician. The PhD program is a plan B for this year. The PhD program is with the PI that I did my Masters in. Since I have a good relation with the people there, I felt like I can could grind through the program.
Click to expand...

Would you be doing the PhD with the intention of applying to medical school again in the future?
 
Med Ed said:
Would you be doing the PhD with the intention of applying to medical school again in the future?
Click to expand...
That is what i am pondering right now. If this cycle doesn't work out, I plan to get my PhD. Is the passion is going to be there 4+ years later, I don't know. I know someone who is getting her PhD and plans to apply for medical school afterwards. I'm keeping an eye on her progress.
 
GrumpyMS said:
That is what i am pondering right now. If this cycle doesn't work out, I plan to get my PhD. Is the passion is going to be there 4+ years later, I don't know. I know someone who is getting her PhD and plans to apply for medical school afterwards. I'm keeping an eye on her progress.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you could have two unsuccessful cycles. What are the reasons?

Going down the PhD route should not be taken lightly, you are effectively committing 6+ years toward an entirely different career path. If that's what you want, then fine, but in no way is it an appropriate method to fix or enhance a medical school application.
 
Last edited:
Med Ed said:
It sounds like you could have two unsuccessful cycles. What are the reasons?

Going down the PhD route should not be taken likely, you are effectively committing 6+ years toward an entirely different career path. If that's what you want, then fine, but in no way is it an appropriate way to fix or enhance a medical school application.
Click to expand...
I do know what the cause is my MCAT scores. I know that it would take a miracle to bring it up to levels that are acceptable for most schools, which is why I've applied to the PhD program. I believe that most likely this cycle would not work out. I also understand that getting a PhD doesn't act like a band-aid for things like substandard standardized test performance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

myribosomesbad
Letter of intent
Replies
4
Views
1K
LindaAccepted
LindaAccepted
P
Letter of Intent & Financial Aid
Replies
2
Views
715
Goro
Goro
P
Letter of Intent & Financial Aid
Replies
1
Views
571
Frog333
F
U
Letter of intent: UMass
Replies
8
Views
1K
chilly_md
chilly_md
U
Letter of intent question
Replies
2
Views
881
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
Top