Liberty COM

[SurgeDO]

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understandable. i respect your beliefs--certainly not trying to rile up a debate.

hopefully i can ask this directly without sounding like a pretentious dick head trying to "poke the bear": did LUCOM address if their curriculum is based on Creationism? do they plan on openly denying evolution?

 

[EH123]

understandable. i respect your beliefs--certainly not trying to rile up a debate.

hopefully i can ask this directly without sounding like a pretentious dick head trying to "poke the bear": did LUCOM address if their curriculum is based on Creationism? do they plan on openly denying evolution?

I wasn't saying you were trying to offend. Just wanted to make sure you knew that they wouldn't be excluded because they aren't against Christian beliefs 🙂. I am sure that they do deny evolutionism and support creationism, but I don't think either will be mentioned in great detail just because we will be so busy learning everything else! I don't doubt some profs would mention it but again I don't think it would be more than that. Not enough time for "extracurriculars".

 

[1badz]

I concur with with EH123. As far as denying evolution, they have to acknowledge it (at least to the extent of what will be on the boards - in respect to genetics and such).

 

[guylewis]

Why wouldn't embryology be taught? It's not against Christian beliefs.

Here is an example. Republican Congressman from Alabama, Paul Broun
"All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of Hell. And it's lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior."

This Republican member of the House is, I S**T YOU NOT, in the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology....And he's now running for the Senate

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/06/republican-congressman-paul-broun-evolution-video

 

[coolingglasses]

did they elude to how they would address embryology and evolution? i understand they are trying to incorporate Christianity into the curriculum.

I mean speciation and micro evolution. No need for macro I wouldn't think.

Yeah, I don't think macro should have to come up.

Here is an example. Republican Congressman from Alabama, Paul Broun
"All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of Hell. And it's lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior."

This Republican member of the House is, I S**T YOU NOT, in the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology....And he's now running for the Senate

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/06/republican-congressman-paul-broun-evolution-video

Todd Akin was on that committee too lol

 

[EH123]

Here is an example. Republican Congressman from Alabama, Paul Broun
"All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of Hell. And it's lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior."

This Republican member of the House is, I S**T YOU NOT, in the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology....And he's now running for the Senate

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/06/republican-congressman-paul-broun-evolution-video

Who cares about what one guy says. According to the Christian bible, there is nothing wrong with either of those subjects. Unfortunately it's the crazy ones with pseudochristian beliefs that make it on tv and make the rest of us look dumb. I am sorry that this guy has given you a negative perspective of Christianity. There are lots of famous Christian scientists that will hopefully "undo" that for you. Anyway, that guy shouldn't be on the board. There's nothing in the bible that disagrees with the development of the fetus and the adaptation and speciation of anything.

 

[csx]

Here is an example. Republican Congressman from Alabama, Paul Broun
"All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of Hell. And it's lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior."

This Republican member of the House is, I S**T YOU NOT, in the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology....And he's now running for the Senate

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/06/republican-congressman-paul-broun-evolution-video

I never understand how these guys always seem to get elected. Inb4 liberal vs conservative/Demacrat vs replublican/Aliens vs Predator debate

 

[guylewis]

Who cares about what one guy says. According to the Christian bible, there is nothing wrong with either of those subjects. Unfortunately it's the crazy ones with pseudochristian beliefs that make it on tv and make the rest of us look dumb. I am sorry that this guy has given you a negative perspective of Christianity. There are lots of famous Christian scientists that will hopefully "undo" that for you. Anyway, that guy shouldn't be on the board. There's nothing in the bible that disagrees with the development of the fetus and the adaptation and speciation of anything.

DAMN IT WHY CAN'T ALL CHRISTIANS BE AS COOL AS YOU!?!?

 

[EH123]

DAMN IT WHY CAN'T ALL CHRISTIANS BE AS COOL AS YOU!?!?

Haha. I know a lot that are as cool as me 😉 cooler even lol. Like I said only bad news makes the news.

 

[cliquesh]

This Republican member of the House is, I S**T YOU NOT, in the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology....And he's now running for the Senate

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/06/republican-congressman-paul-broun-evolution-video

Well, he does have a BS in chemistry and an MD degree.

 

[NurWollen]

Well, he does have a BS in chemistry and an MD degree.

You see, that's why DOs are better than MDs... because Paul Broun isn't a DO.

Though Joseph Mercola is a DO so nevermind.

 

[CSqueed]

How is this a Republican vs Democrat thing? Not all Republicans are christian and/or stupid.

 

[costales]

Liberty probably sounds like a joke to a lot of oeople because of Falwell. Falwell is a joke to me as well. However, due to the sheer amount of care, marketing, and money put into this school, it will inevitably be a good school in the future.

Oral Roberts had a med school while he could afford it, and he was smart enough to stay out of the medical curriculum. By all accounts, Falwell is a far more shrewd businessman than Roberts, and much better at PR. I doubt any faculty will be forced to preach intelligent design in neoplasms or deny evolution in antibiotic resistance or anything funny to attract negative attention.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Oral Roberts had a med school while he could afford it, and he was smart enough to stay out of the medical curriculum. By all accounts, Falwell is a far more shrewd businessman than Roberts, and much better at PR. I doubt any faculty will be forced to preach intelligent design in neoplasms or deny evolution in antibiotic resistance or anything funny to attract negative attention.

You do know that he claimed that Aids was god's punishment for the US being sinful and not ultra religious. Hardly effective at PR.

Regardless the legacy and stink of Falwell is not something LUCOM will ever wash away. And chances are it will never need to because it will shut down soon.

 

[csx]

How is this a Republican vs Democrat thing? Not all Republicans are christian and/or stupid.

stereotypes

 

[costales]

You do know that he claimed that Aids was god's punishment for the US being sinful and not ultra religious. Hardly effective at PR.

Sorry - I was referring to Falwell Jr. He hasn't said anything spectacularly controversial. However, it wouldn't surprise me if he shares his father's beliefs.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You see, that's why DOs are better than MDs... because Paul Broun isn't a DO.

Though Joseph Mercola is a DO so nevermind.

The fact that Mercola has not been stripped of his degree and license to practice is shameful.
The man obviously knows how the body works and how things work. Yet he will do what he wants to sell his oils.

 

[rzoo14]

Regardless the legacy and stink of Falwell is not something LUCOM will ever wash away. And chances are it will never need to because it will shut down soon.

I'm in complete agreement of your criticism of Falwell. I'm not a fan of the undergrad institute, to say the least, but your assessment of the COM isn't justified yet as you haven't been to the school to look more into. I think getting the provisional accreditation grants the school some respect and chance. This reminds me alot of the months before rvu opened up and similar to this, the whole of SDN pre-med went into an uproar because of its for profit status.

Things get too extreme too quickly on SDN. I'll admit that I have my share of concerns about the school but let's give the medical faculty and staff some time and respect. They're working hard to get the school running and we should try to hold off on the judgment of the COM for at least a little while longer.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think it will shut down simply because it will not provide the money liberty could acquire through housing say... An extra few nursing schools or etc.

 

[rzoo14]

I think it will shut down simply because it will not provide the money liberty could acquire through housing say... An extra few nursing schools or etc.

Hmm that's an interesting point. I don't think that'll happen any time soon, if at all. They've made some effort securing the accreditation and building a new med school building. They're also projecting to bring in 50 million+ into the Lynchburg economy. Its a relatively small town and it's big on community relations.

 

[EH123]

I think it will shut down simply because it will not provide the money liberty could acquire through housing say... An extra few nursing schools or etc.

They have put $100 million dollars into the campus plus they have millions of dollars reserved. Liberty online is the largest online school and they bring in a lot of money that way. LUCOM is heavily supported by its undergrad and graduate institutions that have been in place for years. Not to mention the outside funding it is receiving. Its not going anywhere. They will also be adding a health sciences division to the school in a few years for nursing, pa, etc. Do a little research before you make assumptions.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They have put $100 million dollars into the campus plus they have millions of dollars reserved. Liberty online is the largest online school and they bring in a lot of money that way. LUCOM is heavily supported by its undergrad and graduate institutions that have been in place for years. Not to mention the outside funding it is receiving. Its not going anywhere. They will also be adding a health sciences division to the school in a few years for nursing, pa, etc. Do a little research before you make assumptions.

I don't think you actually understood my post. I'm saying that liberty is too money focused to invest in something with limited returns. They could easily open up 6 online nursing schools, with respective in classes ones and pull in far more.

 

[EH123]

They could, but they are trying to deal with the shortage of physicians in Virginia too. I am sure they will be opening a nursing school once the med school is more established

 

[Donkk]

Explains most of the posts on SDN

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They could, but they are trying to deal with the shortage of physicians in Virginia too. I am sure they will be opening a nursing school once the med school is more established

Why is it that every shoebox with a string says the same thing? "We're trying to fix a physician shortage! We need to exist! We are validated!"
It's almost as bad as reading research papers that start out by saying some idealized bs as motivation and then go on to talk about something utterly unrelated with only a semblance of an association.

If liberty really cared about any of this they'd use the money and open up a chain of hospitals and residency programs. Because those are actually correlated with people remaining in the area. Medical school, not so much.

 

[Donkk]

Why is it that every shoebox with a string says the same thing? "We're trying to fix a physician shortage! We need to exist! We are validated!"
It's almost as bad as reading research papers that start out by saying some idealized bs as motivation and then go on to talk about something utterly unrelated with only a semblance of an association.

If liberty really cared about any of this they'd use the money and open up a chain of hospitals and residency programs. Because those are actually correlated with people remaining in the area. Medical school, not so much.

"The agreement, signed early this week, was announced Wednesday by Liberty University Chancellor Jerry Falwell Jr. at the Town and Gown meeting between area college administrators and city officials.

The two-part agreement outlines clerkships, job shadowing, graduate medical education programs and a joint commitment to create more residency opportunities, Martin said Friday. The medical college will develop clinics in partnership with Centra, but will not establish an independent health care system to compete with Centra, he said. Clerkships will take place in hospitals, family practices, specialties and under-served areas across the region, said Martin and Centra Health’s Dr. Matt Johnson. Student of all levels are expected to be exposed to community healthcare programs.

About 200 physicians in the region, many of them employed by Centra, will work with the medical students. LU has partnered with several other healthcare providers, including LifePoint — which has hospitals in Danville, Martinsville, Galax, Wytheville and Richlands — and is in discussion with several private healthcare providers in the area as well.

Martin wants six to eight such partnerships to make sure clerkships and future residency positions will be available for all students when they are ready."

 

[EH123]

Why is it that every shoebox with a string says the same thing? "We're trying to fix a physician shortage! We need to exist! We are validated!"
It's almost as bad as reading research papers that start out by saying some idealized bs as motivation and then go on to talk about something utterly unrelated with only a semblance of an association.

If liberty really cared about any of this they'd use the money and open up a chain of hospitals and residency programs. Because those are actually correlated with people remaining in the area. Medical school, not so much.

Opening more hospitals doesn't make more doctors

 

[EH123]

And yeah, read the mission and vision of almost every D.O school. That's why they exist.

 

[EH123]

...what Donkk said lol

 

[csx]

...what Donkk said lol

sounds too good to be true!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

And yeah, read the mission and vision of almost every D.O school. That's why they exist.

No, most of the original ones and until the 90s existed to keep at stills vision alive.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Opening more hospitals doesn't make more doctors

It only keeps them in the area and yes it does. Plenty of Caribs will take it and statistically stay in the area where they have trained.

 

[EH123]

It only keeps them in the area and yes it does. Plenty of Caribs will take it and statistically stay in the area where they have trained.

We shouldn't have to ship our capable students overseas to go to a Caribbean school.

So you have a problem with every new DO school that's open since the 90s? Trying to fix the physician shortage is not a bad mission or vision to have. I guess I'm just confused why you have a problem with it.

If liberty has millions of dollars and they choose to spend their money on a new medical school how does that negatively impact you? Why does this upset you? There will be plenty of jobs when we both graduate.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

We shouldn't have to ship our capable students overseas to go to a Caribbean school.

So you have a problem with every new DO school that's open since the 90s? Trying to fix the physician shortage is not a bad mission or vision to have. I guess I'm just confused why you have a problem with it.

If liberty has millions of dollars and they choose to spend their money on a new medical school how does that negatively impact you? Why does this upset you? There will be plenty of jobs when we both graduate.

No, I just would rather people be frank and honest than rationalize things for the sake of looking good. And chances are one day at the rate of expansion plenty of these graduates will go unmatched.

All I can say is Virginia has a lot of medical schools and as someone who actually knows the area. We don't have a shortage here, we have an issue of people wanting to live outside of NOVA.

 

[EH123]

No, I just would rather people be frank and honest than rationalize things for the sake of looking good. And chances are one day at the rate of expansion plenty of these graduates will go unmatched.

How do you know what their motive is? They will create more residency positions. It only makes sense. People won't go through med school and become hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to not end up with a residency or job.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

How do you know what their motive is? They will create more residency positions. It only makes sense. People won't go through med school and become hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to not end up with a residency or job.

Always assume that the person next to you is lying until proven otherwise. It's good for poker, it's good for research, and it's good for life. Touchpause, proceed to psychoanalyze me lol.

 

[EH123]

They are addressing the residency shortage. Over the next 5 years, there will be 15,000 more residency positions opened. Thats more than enough to compensate for the new schools being created.

 

[EH123]

Always assume that the person next to you is lying until proven otherwise. It's good for poker, it's good for research, and it's good for life. Touchpause, proceed to psychoanalyze me lol.

Thats kind of a sad perspective of life. I choose optimism. I also choose to work my butt off to assure that I get a residency 😉

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They are addressing the residency shortage. Over the next 5 years, there will be 15,000 more residency positions opened. Thats more than enough to compensate for the new schools being created.

They are addressing the residency shortage. Over the next 5 years, there will be 15,000 more residency positions opened. Thats more than enough to compensate for the new schools being created.

15,000 residencies... in a period of recovery from an economic recession? That seems.. unlikely.. Please leave a citation.

 

[EH123]

balanced budget act of 97 - they were going to reintroduce the bill to allow for more residencies. With ACA they have no choice. Im sorry I don't have a citation 🙁 I will look for an updated article and post the link

 

[EH123]

Found it...but the article that I read was an older one. Has anyone found any articles from March 2013 or Jan 2014 discussing what they concluded regarding lifting the cap? Google is NOT helpful lol. I know that in order to actually fix the shortage, they have to open residency positions, and supposedly they were making a final decision a few days ago about what the actual # would be. Maybe they haven't been published yet?

 

[Arrow777]

We shouldn't have to ship our capable students overseas to go to a Caribbean school.

So you have a problem with every new DO school that's open since the 90s? Trying to fix the physician shortage is not a bad mission or vision to have. I guess I'm just confused why you have a problem with it.

If liberty has millions of dollars and they choose to spend their money on a new medical school how does that negatively impact you? Why does this upset you? There will be plenty of jobs when we both graduate.

I just got accept Liberty too. I couldn't agree more with you with your above statement. I think Liberty has a lot of backing, and will emerge as one of the top ten DO schools within 5 to 10 years. First few years may be a little rocky, but I like your idea of being a leader, and being part of the solution to fix the physician shortage, especially in primary care.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Found it...but the article that I read was an older one. Has anyone found any articles from March 2013 or Jan 2014 discussing what they concluded regarding lifting the cap? Google is NOT helpful lol. I know that in order to actually fix the shortage, they have to open residency positions, and supposedly they were making a final decision a few days ago about what the actual # would be. Maybe they haven't been published yet?

I just don't really think they have the money to honestly. And admittedly them raising the cap that much is somewhat frightening, despite it potentially being good for people or even the greater good, I think it also poses a danger to saturating the market or at least making it even less favorable for physicians to make money.

 

[WesternRedCedar]

That was a proposal, I don't think it was approved, or is still currently being processed through the red tape. Highly doubt it will go through. With the way ACA could go, more now than ever people need to be realistic if they are going into it for the money or not, still will be well payed, but i definitely predict wages to drop a lot.

 

[Arrow777]

I was recently accepted into LUCOM, and I thought the Dean was top notch. I am a Christian, so I was initially motivated to apply because of the mission and vision on the website. However, in the interview they down played the Christian aspect of it, and mentioned how they already accepted many students who are non-Christian, such as Muslim, Sikh, Agnostic, Jewish, and even Atheist. The Dean made it clear in his morning presentation to the group of interviewees that there will be absolutely no toleration of any mistreatment or disrespect to people of faiths other than Christian. I am just mentioning this for anyone who is judging the entire school based on the founder alone. I will not comment on the founder or his views, but prefer to be grateful that his vision has led to a new school that will give more people a chance to realize their dreams of becoming a physician. Although I look forward to making friends with fellow Christians, so I can fellowship through bible studies and volunteer, I am also glad that the class will be diverse.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

This is why a few attendings told me to stay clear of SDN. You have a bunch of pre-meds who are self-proclaimed political/government/financial guru's simply because they have a 3.5+ GPA and can synthesize tertiary alcohols from butene.

Assume the following numbers have remained roughly constant between 2012-2013

19,517 MD matriculants based on AAMC (2012)
5,986 DO matriculants based on AACOM (2012)
----------------------------------------------
25,503 total medical students in the USA


26,772 ACGME Residency positions filled (2013) with ~1,000 unfilled
1,766 AOA Residency positions filled (2012) with ~889 unfilled
--------------------------------------------
28,538 total residency positions filled with ~1,900 unfilled


So with 3 DO schools opening up in 2015-2016: assume each DO school enrolls about 150 students x 3 = 450 students.

When these new schools open up around 2015-2016... so by 2016 these new kids have matched.

So let's do simple math:

1900 - 450 = 1,450 unfilled spots.

But guess what? THE PROPORTIONS STAY THE SAME BECAUSE AS NEW GRADUATES MATCH, RESIDENTS ARE BECOMING ATTENDINGS, AND SENIOR DOCTORS ARE RETIRING.

It's gonna take more than 3 lowly DO schools to exceed the rate of matching to saturate the residencies.

So please ignore dramatic people on SDN. I learned my lesson a long time ago.

 

[SurgeDO]

This is why a few attendings told me to stay clear of SDN. You have a bunch of pre-meds who are self-proclaimed political/government/financial guru's simply because they have a 3.5+ GPA and can synthesize tertiary alcohols from butene.

Assume the following numbers have remained roughly constant between 2012-2013

19,517 MD matriculants based on AAMC (2012)
5,986 DO matriculants based on AACOM (2012)
----------------------------------------------
25,503 total medical students in the USA


26,772 ACGME Residency positions filled (2013) with ~1,000 unfilled
1,766 AOA Residency positions filled (2012) with ~889 unfilled
--------------------------------------------
28,538 total residency positions filled with ~1,900 unfilled


So with 3 DO schools opening up in 2015-2016: assume each DO school enrolls about 150 students x 3 = 450 students.

When these new schools open up around 2015-2016... so 2016 + 4 years for them to graduate, by 2020: total graduates = total residency positions if we decide to include CaribMD.

I believe there will be plenty of time between 2014 through 2020 for government to act with enough time to increase funding for new residency positions. Not to mention, plenty of open land here in America for new entrepreneurs to open up new hospitals as well.

There is no single way that ACGME/AOA will allow schools to keep being created if it means overflow. On top of funding, there will be mandated decrease in school matriculation as well which will further delay the saturation.

So please ignore dramatic people on SDN. I learned my lesson a long time ago.

I am confident in my reply because I have spoken with medical business men and doctors who are politically involved who share the same opinion.

unless the bigwigs in the LCME and COCA suddenly stop liking money, i do not see this happening.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

unless the bigwigs in the LCME and COCA suddenly stop liking money, i do not see this happening.

Please explain how the idea behind my lengthy statement negatively impacts bigwigs paychecks.

 

[SurgeDO]

Please explain how the idea behind my lengthy statement negatively impacts bigwigs paychecks.

mo' med schools = mo' money = mo' problems


LCME and COCA get paid for accrediting med schools. if they want to continue bringing in the big bucks, they are going to continue accrediting.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

mo' med schools = mo' money = mo' problems


LCME and COCA get paid for accrediting med schools. if they want to continue bringing in the big bucks, they are going to continue accrediting.

I don't believe they will open up schools THAT fast to exceed the rate of matching - becoming attending (observe my edited post). Besides, businessmen know that if they saturate residency positions, applications to medical school will decrease once applicants are aware that matching prospects will be reduced dramatically. So what kind of long-term big paychecks are they trying to get using this absurd method?