Lied about in clinical evals- what to do

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Doc_Ock

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Evals were so poor for my last rotation I have to do 2 extra weeks of it. This was a complete shock to me as I had gotten along well with everyone and never had any complaints.
So far the only specific thing that I was told was "doesn't take feedback well"- the thing is I've had ZERO feedback. I mean none, zilch, nada. Means someone is saying they gave me feedback which they absolutely didn't do. Don't wanna be a problem child and call someone a liar but don't think they should be able to do this.
This is driving me into a bad spiral.

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This is just how third year is it’s a subjective nightmare. We have an attending who gives everyone a bad eval. So all of us assigned to that hospital come up with excuses every year to do that rotation elsewhere. Thankfully our school is flexible and allows it. It is what it is

Hang in there. If it’s a real deficiency then work on it. Your school will most likely take out the ****ty comments out of your MSPE
 
This is just how third year is it’s a subjective nightmare. We have an attending who gives everyone a bad eval. So all of us assigned to that hospital come up with excuses every year to do that rotation elsewhere. Thankfully our school is flexible and allows it. It is what it is

Hang in there. If it’s a real deficiency then work on it. Your school will most likely take out the ****ty comments out of your MSPE
If that was all it was then maybe, but I'm having to stick around an extra 2 weeks at the end of my 3rd year which completely effs with some medical opportunities I had set up along with my 4th year schedule. It's having a LOT of downstream effects.
 
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Evals were so poor for my last rotation I have to do 2 extra weeks of it. This was a complete shock to me as I had gotten along well with everyone and never had any complaints.
So far the only specific thing that I was told was "doesn't take feedback well"- the thing is I've had ZERO feedback. I mean none, zilch, nada. Means someone is saying they gave me feedback which they absolutely didn't do. Don't wanna be a problem child and call someone a liar but don't think they should be able to do this.
This is driving me into a bad spiral.
Very sorry to hear about this. The bolded sentence gives me pause. Make sure to take care of yourself!
 
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Sorry this happened to you. For everyone else reading this thread, always ASK for feedback at a MINIMUM at 2 weeks or halfway through the rotation and ideally for verbal feedback again at the end. In my opinion, anyway.
 
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Dang. I'm not where you're at yet so I can't give any useful feedback but I'm curious from the community - Don't you have some sort of "right to confront your accuser" in these situations? When I got my first professional degree and had to do internships, we were allowed to see the feedback form from the preceptor via a liason at the school, and had an opportunity to discuss. I know because I was *sure* one of them was going to trash me (she ended up giving me a very good review - ironically, the one I thought loved me wrote about me like a piece of furniture in the room). Regardless, I was given the chance to discuss the feedback with the director and also the right to reach out (respectfully) to the reviewer for improvement suggestions. Do they not have something like this in place for rotations? Genuinely asking.
 
Dang. I'm not where you're at yet so I can't give any useful feedback but I'm curious from the community - Don't you have some sort of "right to confront your accuser" in these situations? When I got my first professional degree and had to do internships, we were allowed to see the feedback form from the preceptor via a liason at the school, and had an opportunity to discuss. I know because I was *sure* one of them was going to trash me (she ended up giving me a very good review - ironically, the one I thought loved me wrote about me like a piece of furniture in the room). Regardless, I was given the chance to discuss the feedback with the director and also the right to reach out (respectfully) to the reviewer for improvement suggestions. Do they not have something like this in place for rotations? Genuinely asking.
:screeching deep inhalation: bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :faster screeching deep inhalation: bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh man, that's a good one.
 
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Dang. I'm not where you're at yet so I can't give any useful feedback but I'm curious from the community - Don't you have some sort of "right to confront your accuser" in these situations? When I got my first professional degree and had to do internships, we were allowed to see the feedback form from the preceptor via a liason at the school, and had an opportunity to discuss. I know because I was *sure* one of them was going to trash me (she ended up giving me a very good review - ironically, the one I thought loved me wrote about me like a piece of furniture in the room). Regardless, I was given the chance to discuss the feedback with the director and also the right to reach out (respectfully) to the reviewer for improvement suggestions. Do they not have something like this in place for rotations? Genuinely asking.
Yes it is called asking for feedback during and at the end of your time with the person you're rotating with
 
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Yes it is called asking for feedback during and at the end of your time with the person you're rotating with
So, you mentioned asking for feedback at midpoint and end of the rotation. Is there a formal form for this, or do you ask for a letter, or what? I just want to know for when I arrive there, thanks!
 
Dang. I'm not where you're at yet so I can't give any useful feedback but I'm curious from the community - Don't you have some sort of "right to confront your accuser" in these situations? When I got my first professional degree and had to do internships, we were allowed to see the feedback form from the preceptor via a liason at the school, and had an opportunity to discuss. I know because I was *sure* one of them was going to trash me (she ended up giving me a very good review - ironically, the one I thought loved me wrote about me like a piece of furniture in the room). Regardless, I was given the chance to discuss the feedback with the director and also the right to reach out (respectfully) to the reviewer for improvement suggestions. Do they not have something like this in place for rotations? Genuinely asking.
Asking for something like this is a good way to make 100% sure they fail you a second time
 
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This is just how third year is it’s a subjective nightmare. We have an attending who gives everyone a bad eval. So all of us assigned to that hospital come up with excuses every year to do that rotation elsewhere. Thankfully our school is flexible and allows it. It is what it is

Hang in there. If it’s a real deficiency then work on it. Your school will most likely take out the ****ty comments out of your MSPE

That sounds like something that should be taken up with admin (AFTER you graduate) and ask them to not have that doofus take any more students
 
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So, you mentioned asking for feedback at midpoint and end of the rotation. Is there a formal form for this, or do you ask for a letter, or what? I just want to know for when I arrive there, thanks!
No, you ask verbally: "I'm really enjoying this rotation and want to continue to do better! What could I work on?" Bonus points for asking about specific concerns, evidence of self-reflection.
 
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Similar scenario happened to me. I had to stand up for myself and say something because it was so complete opposite of everything I was being told. The coordinator called my previous senior and other residents and it was cleared up quickly. Essentially 1 senior did not like me and tried to sabotage me. Joys of being a 3rd year medical student.
 
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Yes it is called asking for feedback during and at the end of your time with the person you're rotating with
I rotated with over half a dozen people with whom I wasn't with more than a week. They were all smiles and laughs with no hint that they didn't like anything I was doing.
 
Evals were so poor for my last rotation I have to do 2 extra weeks of it. This was a complete shock to me as I had gotten along well with everyone and never had any complaints.
So far the only specific thing that I was told was "doesn't take feedback well"- the thing is I've had ZERO feedback. I mean none, zilch, nada. Means someone is saying they gave me feedback which they absolutely didn't do. Don't wanna be a problem child and call someone a liar but don't think they should be able to do this.
This is driving me into a bad spiral.
All that matters is what they write on your dean's letter. If something is bad, you fight tooth and nail with the school to remove it
 
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I rotated with over half a dozen people with whom I wasn't with more than a week. They were all smiles and laughs with no hint that they didn't like anything I was doing.
Aw man that's brutal. Admittedly impossible to incorporate my advice into something like that. What a poor setup from your school.
 
Ask your school advisors/clinical department if this is a common trend with this site. My school monitors all the evals when they come back with negative comments. One preceptor always gave evals that were barely passing even to superstar students with clean records. Our school office just laughs and shreds the eval...

I am genuinely curious about the kind of mindset these preceptors have. Like how sick do you have to be in the head to take pleasure in screwing the lives and careers of students who are, metaphorically speaking, babies in medicine. They've been through this themselves and they're well aware of the implications of every good and bad evaluation that is given....
 
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Evals were so poor for my last rotation I have to do 2 extra weeks of it. This was a complete shock to me as I had gotten along well with everyone and never had any complaints.
So far the only specific thing that I was told was "doesn't take feedback well"- the thing is I've had ZERO feedback. I mean none, zilch, nada. Means someone is saying they gave me feedback which they absolutely didn't do. Don't wanna be a problem child and call someone a liar but don't think they should be able to do this.
This is driving me into a bad spiral.

This is the real world. Attendings/Residents are human and commonly exaggerate or bend things to fit their often preconceived narrative. It's not about what you said or did, but how you made someone feel which will be important for the rest of your life. Consider yourself lucky you've run into this situation early on.

Your case is pretty common. First off, you don't need a formal Friday mid-rotation/end of rotation sit down to break down your performance. It would be odd if an attending gave you that, asked for your thoughts, and you said "I don't like your feedback", prompting them to write that in your eval right? What most likely happened is through interactions with the residents or the attendings, someone got that impression. Usually when residents/attendings ask questions, they're doing it as a segue way to teach you something. Students commonly misinterpret the situation and see it as nitpicking, etc. when their answer is critiqued. Another common situation is when you work really hard on something (ex. discharge summary) and the resident says it's not good for XYZ. They're probably right because how would you know what's important, you've never done a DC summary before and that's all interns do for a living. When you hear feedback, think of whether it's helpful and if it is, nod your head and say, good to know. Thanks. Yeah you stayed up last night and took your own free time to write the summary, but no one cares...what matters is the result.

The mistake your evaluator(s) made was to blindside you with this in a summative evaluation. It's petty AF. If you think about why they did it though, they probably disliked giving you the feedback and avoided giving it. Regardless there's no excuse as residents/attendings should have experience with this and have the moxie to confront the situation instead of writing comments in the final evaluation. Unfortunately, there is 0 accountability for this. Those who residents/attendings answer to (program director) are not the ones you answer to (clerkship director). The latter is usually lower in rank than the former. This is why students don't win he said, she said arguments because it would first take a clerkship director believing you without evidence and then being brave to confront the program director about XYZ when med student evals are the last thing they're worried about.

If you feel like it's an issue, just take a second to introspect about how you interact. Do you seem rushed? Do you make eye contact? Do you smile? (this is important!) Ask a trusted peer how your interactions come off as when you're in a team setting and if they don't say much, tell them this is what XYZ said, not to look for validation from them but to gather any meaningful advice

Regarding what you do...Do not call it out, do not accuse someone of lying (very serious allegation you need proof for). You only challenge negative summative feedback if you have definitive proof which is impossible in this situation as any situation you had can easily be framed to fit their narrative. You could reject their narrative but it's a he said/she said. Even if they were lying, which deep down only they know, there's no way you can prove that. Here's an example of something you challenge:

Eval: The student routinely did not show up to clinic.
Reality: You actually went every time and have EMR logs of all your patients you saw and submit them to the clerkship director with dates/times.

That's challengeable. Your situation isn't.

In fact, (and I hate to point out the irony of the situation when you're feeling down-) you've just been provided feedback...and you don't seem to be taking it well ("This is driving me into a bad spiral") so I would actually do some introspection. The more of that you do now, the less you'll have to do in residency. Keep in mind this doesn't make you a bad person or someone who's behind his or her peers. Every person struggles with this at some stage in their journey, but no one admits it because why would they want people to know that?
 
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I rotated with over half a dozen people with whom I wasn't with more than a week. They were all smiles and laughs with no hint that they didn't like anything I was doing.

Residents/attendings talk. If even one had a bad experience with you, they could very well have gossiped about it leading to everyone thinking you don't take feedback well which could explain your quoted experience. Don't get paranoid, I am not saying this is what happened and it's unlikely (if I was betting based on what I read here), but I have seen medical students be the butt of gossip during resident/attending talks. Medical students hardly spend 1-2 weeks on a service whereas the residents/attendings have been mingling for a year. Be nice to everyone because you never know who's friends with who or who's at the top of the food chain resident-wise. As a resident, I have actually given a student a frank heads up when I heard everyone crapping on him/her before I left the service and he was going to be on for another week. My reward was a very defensive response and strongly worded evaluation with 1 in all categories (I had given him straight 3s with a few positive things and a few things to improve which was generous).

Kind of off topic, but the system's messed up on both sides. There is actually a resident teaching award given out via medical student nominations. The ones who win it are the ones who basically become best friends with students and both likely have a tacit agreement to rate each other highly. The student needs to match derm/needs honors, the resident enjoys the attention and collecting student evals. I personally feel there's a happy medium which is to give students lots of constructive feedback (because medical school doesn't teach students how to be residents), but then evaluate them benevolently knowing the dark underbelly of what happens when you write even constructive criticism or when it appears in their deans letter that interviewers nitpick on years later. The key as a resident is communicating that benevolence to them so you don't get hosed when they perceive all these nice residents and then see you.

In medical school I had tons of "nice residents" who just told me to do things and wrote me amazing comments ("performs at the level of an intern"). It doesn't help anyone, but unfortunately it's the most stable, mutually beneficial route so many just do that.
 
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This is the real world. Attendings/Residents are human and commonly exaggerate or bend things to fit their often preconceived narrative. It's not about what you said or did, but how you made someone feel which will be important for the rest of your life. Consider yourself lucky you've run into this situation early on.

Your case is pretty common. First off, you don't need a formal Friday mid-rotation/end of rotation sit down to break down your performance. It would be odd if an attending gave you that, asked for your thoughts, and you said "I don't like your feedback", prompting them to write that in your eval right? What most likely happened is through interactions with the residents or the attendings, someone got that impression. Usually when residents/attendings ask questions, they're doing it as a segue way to teach you something. Students commonly misinterpret the situation and see it as nitpicking, etc. when their answer is critiqued. Another common situation is when you work really hard on something (ex. discharge summary) and the resident says it's not good for XYZ. They're probably right because how would you know what's important, you've never done a DC summary before and that's all interns do for a living. When you hear feedback, think of whether it's helpful and if it is, nod your head and say, good to know. Thanks. Yeah you stayed up last night and took your own free time to write the summary, but no one cares...what matters is the result.

The mistake your evaluator(s) made was to blindside you with this in a summative evaluation. It's petty AF. If you think about why they did it though, they probably disliked giving you the feedback and avoided giving it. Regardless there's no excuse as residents/attendings should have experience with this and have the moxie to confront the situation instead of writing comments in the final evaluation. Unfortunately, there is 0 accountability for this. Those who residents/attendings answer to (program director) are not the ones you answer to (clerkship director). The latter is usually lower in rank than the former. This is why students don't win he said, she said arguments because it would first take a clerkship director believing you without evidence and then having the galls to confront the program director about XYZ when their last priority after patient care, resident logistics, etc. is medical student evaluations.

If you feel like it's an issue, just take a second to introspect with how you interact. Do you seem rushed? Do you make eye contact? Do you smile (this is important)? Ask a trusted peer how your interactions come off as when you're in a team setting and if they don't say much, tell them this is what XYZ said, not to look for validation from them but to gather any meaningful stuff.

Regarding the feedback itself...Do not call it out, do not accuse someone of lying (very strong language in medicine). You only challenge such a thing if you have definitive proof which is impossible in this situation as any situation you had can easily be framed to fit their narrative (even if they were lying...which deep down only they know). Here's an example of something you challenge:

Eval: The student routinely did not show up to clinic.
Reality: You actually went every time and have EMR logs of all your patients you saw and submit them to the clerkship director.

That's challengeable. Your situation isn't.

In fact, (and I hate to point out the irony of the situation when you're feeling down) you've just been provided feedback...you don't seem to be taking it well so I would actually do some introspection. The more you do now, the less you'll have in residency. Keep in mind this doesn't make you a bad person or someone who's behind his or her peers. Every person struggles with this at some stage in their journey, but no one admits it because why would they want people to know that about them?

I also want to emphasize that this kind of stuff isn't limited to medical students. It happens at the residency level. The best action is to take it by the chin, acquiesce to all conditions, pass all barriers, be the best medical student/resident/physician to your future encounters, and prove that the person giving you this one abnormal eval is the jokester.

As for the person doing this passive-aggressive stuff, don't let it bother you too much and don't have too much respect for him/her.
 
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So no preceptor ever ask you a question regarding a patient or patient care during the entire month?
Very rarely. When they did i know I answered well (I used to work in the field)
 
This is the real world. Attendings/Residents are human and commonly exaggerate or bend things to fit their often preconceived narrative. It's not about what you said or did, but how you made someone feel which will be important for the rest of your life. Consider yourself lucky you've run into this situation early on.

Your case is pretty common. First off, you don't need a formal Friday mid-rotation/end of rotation sit down to break down your performance. It would be odd if an attending gave you that, asked for your thoughts, and you said "I don't like your feedback", prompting them to write that in your eval right? What most likely happened is through interactions with the residents or the attendings, someone got that impression. Usually when residents/attendings ask questions, they're doing it as a segue way to teach you something. Students commonly misinterpret the situation and see it as nitpicking, etc. when their answer is critiqued. Another common situation is when you work really hard on something (ex. discharge summary) and the resident says it's not good for XYZ. They're probably right because how would you know what's important, you've never done a DC summary before and that's all interns do for a living. When you hear feedback, think of whether it's helpful and if it is, nod your head and say, good to know. Thanks. Yeah you stayed up last night and took your own free time to write the summary, but no one cares...what matters is the result.

The mistake your evaluator(s) made was to blindside you with this in a summative evaluation. It's petty AF. If you think about why they did it though, they probably disliked giving you the feedback and avoided giving it. Regardless there's no excuse as residents/attendings should have experience with this and have the moxie to confront the situation instead of writing comments in the final evaluation. Unfortunately, there is 0 accountability for this. Those who residents/attendings answer to (program director) are not the ones you answer to (clerkship director). The latter is usually lower in rank than the former. This is why students don't win he said, she said arguments because it would first take a clerkship director believing you without evidence and then being brave to confront the program director about XYZ when med student evals are the last thing they're worried about.

If you feel like it's an issue, just take a second to introspect about how you interact. Do you seem rushed? Do you make eye contact? Do you smile? (this is important!) Ask a trusted peer how your interactions come off as when you're in a team setting and if they don't say much, tell them this is what XYZ said, not to look for validation from them but to gather any meaningful advice

Regarding what you do...Do not call it out, do not accuse someone of lying (very serious allegation you need proof for). You only challenge negative summative feedback if you have definitive proof which is impossible in this situation as any situation you had can easily be framed to fit their narrative. You could reject their narrative but it's a he said/she said. Even if they were lying, which deep down only they know, there's no way you can prove that. Here's an example of something you challenge:

Eval: The student routinely did not show up to clinic.
Reality: You actually went every time and have EMR logs of all your patients you saw and submit them to the clerkship director with dates/times.

That's challengeable. Your situation isn't.

In fact, (and I hate to point out the irony of the situation when you're feeling down-) you've just been provided feedback...and you don't seem to be taking it well ("This is driving me into a bad spiral") so I would actually do some introspection. The more of that you do now, the less you'll have to do in residency. Keep in mind this doesn't make you a bad person or someone who's behind his or her peers. Every person struggles with this at some stage in their journey, but no one admits it because why would they want people to know that?
I know you're going to find this hard to believe- people always want to think there are two sides to every story- but I'm telling the truth. I don't mean I got a few comments here and there, I. GOT. NO. FEEDBACK.
So when someone says they gave me feedback they're lying, and THAT'S what I'm pissed about.
Not criticism.
 
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Are you given your evals? Or does someone in the clinical department of your school just sum up the evaluations for you?
 
I know you're going to find this hard to believe- people always want to think there are two sides to every story- but I'm telling the truth. I don't mean I got a few comments here and there, I. GOT. NO. FEEDBACK.
So when someone says they gave me feedback they're lying, and THAT'S what I'm pissed about.
Not criticism.
Are you saying no one ever saw something you did or said, and suggested you do or say it differently? Because that's what feedback could mean on a rotation.

Even if they said, "oh next time try to do X," and you either didn't do that next time or responded with "oh, that's not how we did it at my old job", that could be interpreted as not taking feedback well. Honestly, I think it's more likely something like that, than overtly "rejecting" structured feedback.

If you're saying you always responded well because you worked in the field before, my guess is that's probably part of the issue. Maybe you countered a point with previous experience, right or wrong, and that wasn't taken well by the resident or attending. As a med student, your job isn't to be right, its to listen and adapt. Respect the BS of the hierarchy, because that's what the system is built on.
 
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I know you're going to find this hard to believe- people always want to think there are two sides to every story- but I'm telling the truth. I don't mean I got a few comments here and there, I. GOT. NO. FEEDBACK.
I know you're going to find this hard to believe- people always want to think there are two sides to every story- but I'm telling the truth. I don't mean I got a few comments here and there, I. GOT. NO. FEEDBACK.
So when someone says they gave me feedback they're lying, and THAT'S what I'm pissed about.
Not criticism

You’re really perseverating on the lying thing. Do you have any presentable evidence that they lied? Most likely not because how someone observed/interprets body language is subjective and can't be recorded on paper. Unless there’s proof, there’s nothing you can do about it besides maybe tell your course director that the comment was not consistent with your experience on the rotation and if others had the same experience it may make them question that feedback more and I would only do that if it's going to make a difference in your rotation grade. I would suggest doing the things mentioned above and forgetting about this. Your story is quite common and just because it's wrong on someone's end to write this sort of thing doesn't mean you have to have a fundamentalist attitude towards it. Just make sure you’re doing everything you can to be open to feedback (in general like anyone else is) so another person doesn’t write this because that’s when it becomes an issue. This is why everyone gets one pass.

Also, quite frankly, we don’t even know each other but I can feel your indignance jumping out at the page at me even over internet. Not that I care or am saying your response was inappropriate (it wasn’t-I get that you're pissed). The one thing I highly suggest you do is to not make a mountain out a molehill with this lying business. Saying someone "lied" is a serious professional allegation. You will have the right to make your case to the course director and I bet if you feel strongly about it they can go up food chain with it, but if the attending hears that you are accusing them of lying, things will not end well for you. I would avoid the term altogether.

What may be more practical is if you don't want this comment to follow you, meet proactively with the Director of Clerkship medicine and describe your experience to them and make it clear you're not looking to start any arguments. Also be provided to give some names of residents/attendings who can evaluate you in a better light.
 
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Very rarely. When they did i know I answered well (I used to work in the field)

Damn, didn't even see this. OP, I'd be willing to bet money this is the mentality that led to someone gaining that perception about you. As @hallowmann said best, it's not your job to be right as a medical student (unless there's a very obvious error that no one's seeing that could immediately harm patient care). It's your job to show what you know and have that built upon because I will tell you as a medical student, you can't even begin to understand how little you know and there's only so much time residents have to teach you these things. Regardless of prior exposure to XYZ field, you're now involved in it from a physician's perspective which is different. Some elements may be dumbed down, others may be more in depth.
 
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Are you saying no one ever saw something you did or said, and suggested you do or say it differently? Because that's what feedback could mean on a rotation.

Even if they said, "oh next time try to do X," and you either didn't do that next time or responded with "oh, that's not how we did it at my old job", that could be interpreted as not taking feedback well. Honestly, I think it's more likely something like that, than overtly "rejecting" structured feedback.

If you're saying you always responded well because you worked in the field before, my guess is that's probably part of the issue. Maybe you countered a point with previous experience, right or wrong, and that wasn't taken well by the resident or attending. As a med student, your job isn't to be right, its to listen and adapt. Respect the BS of the hierarchy, because that's what the system is built on.
"Are you saying no one ever saw something you did or said, and suggested you do or say it differently? " No. I'm serious.
No one here seems to believe that could happen, but it did. Yeah it struck me as odd, but whatever I wasn't about to say anything.
 
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