Lincoln Memorial University???

Started by willagirl
Veterinary Science Graduate Programs from U. of I.
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Minnerbelle said:
I totally remember going through the application process and just wanting nothing more than to get in, so I sympathize if you feel like this school is your only shot.

But I would think about how you would feel 4 years down the line. You might be excited to be the first graduating class, but I'm pretty sure none of your possible employers will feel the same... When the competition for jobs is super tight for new grads (and it's only going to get worse as the bigger and bigger classes graduate over the next 4 years), you don't want to be at a huge disadvantage like that.

Yes Western (and all other accredited vet schools) also had a first class, but that was before the economy tanked and everyone still thought veterinarians had good job security. That's no longer the case.
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Its all about getting out there. I just really don't think too many employers look at that as a negative factor or I don't want to work for them. I am most likely going to be a food animal vet and go into business for myself. I have a business degree as well and have run my own business in the past. No one has good job security right now and I think any field you go into it is the case,unless you work for yourself. I am not certain why so many people are bashing LMU. They have just as qualified doctors and staff as the other schools. I think I can get into other schools I just really am excited about this one. Is there really none on this forum who has positive things to say about it? I appreciate your opinion and you have the right to an opinion. Honestly I worked for an emergency specialty clinic in Southern CA and some of our best specialists came from Ross. I didn't apply to those schools but my point is that they were amazing vets. I am 34 and have already changed my career dramatically from sales to veterinary. It is my dream and I had to make a lot of sacrifices. Well everyone does, I have put so much money into applying that if I get into one of the schools I will go! It is a bummer a lot of people are so negative about it andI feel like the general opinion is that people that go to LMU can't get in anywhere else. Yes my GPA isn't as competitive because of my grades from 10 years ago and I had to work full time and take 17-18 credits a semester in order to pay for school and support myself. I do want to go there and am interviewing next week. Yes if you work for a large research company or want to publish your research than it probably does matter but I don't want to do that. I hope this will bring some positive light to this forum. Not sure what this forum was designed for.
 
LetItSnow said:
Yes. Every vet school had a first class. So what? I've no idea what that seems to suggest to you that we should just keep making more of them. There are more than enough vets for the market right now. Making more vets is just daft.

I hope you get in, too. I just hope it's to an existing school and that every single one of the new start-up schools takes a complete nose-dive into bankruptcy.
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Wow, Actually I am from plymouth as well and I did apply to the U of MN. Yes there are a lot of vets but that isn't going to stop... More and More educational institutions will be opening. I went to the University of St. Thomas 11 years ago and I remember when the law school opened and people knocked it really bad but I had a good friend go there and loved it. I don't think they will go into bankruptcy...Everyones argument is that there are too many vets. Isn't that a problem in all fields and aren't the class sizes expanding. I know there is no limit to how many seats at KSU. I really don't believe that opening a new school will change much. Other schools will open and no not all of them will go bankrupt. It really is a nationwide economical problem and is affecting all fields. I understand you are concerned about job security but I mean everyone is and I could make a nasty political statement about our leader but I am going to refrain 🙂
 
StartingoverVet said:
No we can't all specialize. In fact only 10% can get into residencies and that percentage will decline as enrollment increases...

Unless you meant specialize as in large,small,food etc in which case your terminology was wrong.
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I realize the competition is tough for residency but I was not saying everyone would get into a residency program. I just said you can specialize.
 
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anesthtc said:
As much as I don't agree with the "everything is fine and dandy" stuff I think this is a bit of a misrepresentation of the veterinary market for the following reasons:
1) It's not just veterinary medicine. The entire economy sucks. Unless you're looking for a job in the oil industry it's not going to be as easy as it was 10 years ago.
2) Where I live there are vacancies. Unfortunately many of the applicants are looking for 9-5, 4 or 5 day a week positions. Parhaps you're not a part of that group, but it's a bit strange to see some of the expectations some of these vets have.
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Is it? I really don't see how number one proves your point.

And I want to go into equine, so 9-5 has never been an option for me. I have had this conversation over and over with senior clinicians. Board certified equine vets are fighting over general practice jobs (jobs which they are over qualified for) because they can't find work. Some equine vets are also being forced to go into small animal practice instead because they cannot find jobs in the field they truly love. Where does that leave new grads? And if more new grads are graduating per year, where does that leave them?
 
1103 said:
Wow, Actually I am from plymouth as well and I did apply to the U of MN. Yes there are a lot of vets but that isn't going to stop... More and More educational institutions will be opening. I went to the University of St. Thomas 11 years ago and I remember when the law school opened and people knocked it really bad but I had a good friend go there and loved it. I don't think they will go into bankruptcy...Everyones argument is that there are too many vets. Isn't that a problem in all fields and aren't the class sizes expanding. I know there is no limit to how many seats at KSU. I really don't believe that opening a new school will change much. Other schools will open and no not all of them will go bankrupt. It really is a nationwide economical problem and is affecting all fields. I understand you are concerned about job security but I mean everyone is and I could make a nasty political statement about our leader but I am going to refrain 🙂
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There's just so many things wrong here.....

How much someone loves their school is not a good reflection on whether the school should be there.

More and more educational institutions will only keep opening so long as someone sees the opportunity to make money doing it. As long as they can charge ridiculous tuition and people will pay it, or the government will hand out loans fully covering the tuition, people will open schools.

There are a lot of vets, but you can sure bet it will stop at some point. Or, more accurately, what will happen is that more and more vets will move out of vet med and into other fields when they can't find jobs.

And no, excess supply is not a problem in all fields. PAs are expecting their field to explode with demand, for instance. And class sizes aren't expanding because schools see a need - they're expanding because schools are feeling increasingly budget-challenged, and if they can squeeze some more money out by adding a few seats ... they do it. It has absolutely nothing to do with schools feeling like there is a need for more vets. (It also has a bit to do with some schools feeling like they want a bigger piece of the pie, but that's still nothing to do with a need for more vets.)

People who have actually studied this in depth have pretty conclusively agreed that a) the decline in vet med started before the most recent general economic downturn, b) that downturn is only one piece of the vet med problem, c) there is an oversupply of vets, d) the amount of money consumers are spending on vet med has stagnated and/or declined (depending on who you read). Subjectively, current owners are finding it harder and harder to sell their clinics because nobody can afford to buy them. (That, in my opinion, is the single thing that finally got the AVMA to even acknowledge the issue and start considering it seriously.)

You can "believe" what you want, but the facts stand very strongly against you. Supply and demand is a simple principle, and right now in vet med the supply strongly outweighs the demand, which means the consequences are both predictable and inevitable without significant change.

I have no idea what that complete non sequitur about "our leader" is. I know of absolutely nobody in vet med who is trying to dump the state of the industry on the feet of any one political leader, since the problem predates all of them.

Frankly, you sound naively hopeful and uninformed.

Nobody's suggesting you or anyone else shouldn't go into vet med. Everyone deserves the opportunity as much as anyone else. But you're being foolish if you think that opening new schools and graduating more and more vets isn't going to contribute to what is already a crisis situation.
 
1103 said:
I hope this will bring some positive light to this forum. Not sure what this forum was designed for.
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Pretty sure the forum was designed to bring together the opinions of people with perspectives of all facets of vet med (from people starting their first stint shadowing a vet, to veteran vets who have been through it all) to support those who are thinking about joining the profession. Support doesn't necessarily mean blindly hooraying every idea. I think you could very well become a wonderful vet in the coming years, but my opinion is simply that LMU is a risky career decision. That is all. It was not a personal attack or a "I hate LMU" bandwagon. If you are excited to take that risk, more power to ya. It doesn't change my opinions, nor would I advise anyone else any differently just because you are excited or don't agree that going there could possibly hinder your career. You don't need anyone's blessing in this forum to follow your dreams in whatever manner you choose.

And I honestly have no idea where your comment about Ross grads came from... No one said they are bad or horrible... In fact I think it's a general consensus that Ross as a for profit school has pretty crappy practices sometimes, but the people who survive through their shenanigans make great doctors.
 
shortnsweet said:
Is it? I really don't see how number one proves your point.

And I want to go into equine, so 9-5 has never been an option for me. I have had this conversation over and over with senior clinicians. Board certified equine vets are fighting over general practice jobs (jobs which they are over qualified for) because they can't find work. Some equine vets are also being forced to go into small animal practice instead because they cannot find jobs in the field they truly love. Where does that leave new grads? And if more new grads are graduating per year, where does that leave them?
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completely anecdotal...

but one of my anatomy lab partners from first year was the most horsey of horsey people. Already had a job lined up with an Equine surgeon after she graduates. Never a question she was Equine.

Junior year rolls around, the vet she was destined to be with was having trouble with declining business and there wasn't an opportunity there anymore... After she checked around jobs around the country, she decided to switch to small animal and now will be working for Banfield. I mean, this is a person whose whole life was Equine. Kind of amazing (and sad) to see that happen. Equine was never easy to get started in, and now is a particularly bad time it seems.
 
StartingoverVet said:
completely anecdotal...

but one of my anatomy lab partners from first year was the most horsey of horsey people. Already had a job lined up with an Equine surgeon after she graduates. Never a question she was Equine.

Junior year rolls around, the vet she was destined to be with was having trouble with declining business and there wasn't an opportunity there anymore... After she checked around jobs around the country, she decided to switch to small animal and now will be working for Banfield. I mean, this is a person whose whole life was Equine. Kind of amazing (and sad) to see that happen. Equine was never easy to get started in, and now is a particularly bad time it seems.
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Yup...I'm really not making this stuff up. It's the sad truth.
 
shortnsweet said:
Yup...I'm really not making this stuff up. It's the sad truth.
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And some people will say "but she got a job"....

But that is one less job for someone else SA at Banfield.... which probably means someone else going the internship route (which has been the default route for people not getting jobs the last few years... and why now 50% of grads are getting mainly interships (but some residencies). Work basically as a slave for a year for long hours and little money, then throw yourself back in the job pool a year later, making it harder for the next year's grads.. so the % goes up......

And people can deny there isn't a problem.

The more internships (especially private) taken up, the more pressure on prices in the future.

THIS is the snowballing problem. I presume more and more private hospitals and practices will be setting up internships to take care of the growing unemployable grad pool. I can imagine in a number of years that 80-90% of grads going into these positions, "cause ya gotta get a job somewhere to pay off the debt".
 
StartingoverVet said:
The more internships (especially private) taken up, the more pressure on prices in the future.

THIS is the snowballing problem. I presume more and more private hospitals and practices will be setting up internships to take care of the growing unemployable grad pool. I can imagine in a number of years that 80-90% of grads going into these positions, "cause ya gotta get a job somewhere to pay off the debt".
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And, that's why I just laughed when another poster said "you can just specialize."

There is a fixed amount out there in terms of how much money consumers will spend on veterinary services. At least, in the recent past and for the foreseeable future. Ideally, we grow that pie as one element of getting the profession back on track. But the notion that we all can just specialize (and therefore presumably charge more for our services to grow our incomes) completely ignores the financial reality of the consumer marketplace.
 
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I think everyone's right, which is a complicated place to be.

The BLS is correct - there is a growing need for veterinarians, especially in non-traditional practice settings.
The Rural Vets/Food Animal people are correct - we need rural vets badly.
The Equine people are correct - those markets are pretty well saturated.
The Small Animal people are correct - there are PLENTY of practices hiring. I believe we do not have so much of a shortage as a "misappropriation", under-utilization of resources, if you will.

It's an unfortunate circumstance of our profession. We are very fractionalized, mostly sole proprietors, who are limited in our grasp of the big picture but very steadfast in our belief of OUR picture.
Unfortunately, we are currently lacking strong unified leadership to steer the profession in the right direction. We are, by our nature, trained to look at the smallest detail, the tiniest window. Sadly, it often means that we are often target-fixated and unable to look at the bigger picture.
 
rodeomarie said:
I think everyone's right, which is a complicated place to be.

The BLS is correct - there is a growing need for veterinarians, especially in non-traditional practice settings.
The Rural Vets/Food Animal people are correct - we need rural vets badly.
The Equine people are correct - those markets are pretty well saturated.
The Small Animal people are correct - there are PLENTY of practices hiring. I believe we do not have so much of a shortage as a "misappropriation", under-utilization of resources, if you will.

It's an unfortunate circumstance of our profession. We are very fractionalized, mostly sole proprietors, who are limited in our grasp of the big picture but very steadfast in our belief of OUR picture.
Unfortunately, we are currently lacking strong unified leadership to steer the profession in the right direction. We are, by our nature, trained to look at the smallest detail, the tiniest window. Sadly, it often means that we are often target-fixated and unable to look at the bigger picture.
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The rural places that "need a vet" also can't support one.
 
rodeomarie said:
And your point?
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Is there really a reason for you to be a jerk to someone when they are making a point?

I believe dyachei means that there are even less jobs and less money available for those looking to work in rural places and those people will also saturate the small animal section in order to get a job and further exacerbate the problem being seen. Just because a place "needs a vet" doesn't mean the economy can support that vet. Whether the statement that more rural/farm animal vets are needed is correct or not, the economy can't support a vet just because they are "needed".
 
rodeomarie said:
I think everyone's right, which is a complicated place to be.

The BLS is correct - there is a growing need for veterinarians, especially in non-traditional practice settings.
The Rural Vets/Food Animal people are correct - we need rural vets badly.
The Equine people are correct - those markets are pretty well saturated.
The Small Animal people are correct - there are PLENTY of practices hiring. I believe we do not have so much of a shortage as a "misappropriation", under-utilization of resources, if you will.
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Out of curiosity....what settings are you referring to?

Are you talking about biomedical research? Because any vet wanting to get into research will have to get a PhD. A DVM is not a research degree - it does not prepare you in any way to do high-level research. A plain old DVM will always come in second to a PhD in the field when it comes to research. So that is 4-5 more years of getting paid crap while your debt compounds - not an option many of us have. NIH funding, especially for new researchers, is awful. I was insanely lucky to be on the grant I am currently on.

I'll tell you a secret - most research labs do not give a crap about a DVM. They don't care that yo uknow how to do colic surgery on a horse. They want you to be able to do high level immunology, toxicology, whatever that a vet is simply not trained to do. They will hire a PhD over a plain DVM every time.

Or are you talking about government regulatory jobs? Those come in two main flavors right now - entry level slaughterhouse work/food inspection and upper-level management that also require 1) additional degrees 2) additional training 3) usually more experience than the average graduating DVM has. Entry-level positions are few and far between, whether it is epidemiology (usually also requires another degree), public health (will require an MPH,) etc.

Or are you talking about lab animal, toxicology, pathology...all of those also require residency and extra training. Again, this is not an option for everyone. All the specialties right now are slowly becoming saturated.

International work? Pays crap unless you are lucky enough to get on a big grant or scholarship (or do the military route), which again usually requires more experience than simply a DVM.

Don't drink the Kool-Aid that there are so many jobs for vets outside of the generic practice scenario. There are SOME jobs for vets who take on additional YEARS of training, AFTER 4 years and 140k of debt. They aren't just lying around for a green fresh-out-of-fourth-year DVM to snatch up.

And frankly, it makes complete sense. The DVM is a clinical degree. We are trained to be doctors. If we want to do something NOT clinical, we're going to need to take additional time and often additional debt to qualify for it.
 
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DVMDream said:
Is there really a reason for you to be a jerk to someone when they are making a point?

I believe dyachei means that there are even less jobs and less money available for those looking to work in rural places and those people will also saturate the small animal section in order to get a job and further exacerbate the problem being seen. Just because a place "needs a vet" doesn't mean the economy can support that vet. Whether the statement that more rural/farm animal vets are needed is correct or not, the economy can't support a vet just because they are "needed".
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Well put.
 
rodeomarie said:
I think everyone's right, which is a complicated place to be.

The BLS is correct - there is a growing need for veterinarians, especially in non-traditional practice settings.
The Rural Vets/Food Animal people are correct - we need rural vets badly.
The Equine people are correct - those markets are pretty well saturated.
The Small Animal people are correct - there are PLENTY of practices hiring. I believe we do not have so much of a shortage as a "misappropriation", under-utilization of resources, if you will.
Click to expand...
This is very misleading. There are plenty of practices hiring because there are so many practices. That does not mean anything. There are certainly not an excess of position available over the demand for them.

There is not a misallocation at all...... there is an oversupply in virtually every area except rural where no one can work given debt levels.

Of course there are jobs in all those areas... that is meaningless... there are just not ENOUGH jobs in any of those areas.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Out of curiosity....what settings are you referring to?

Are you talking about biomedical research? Because any vet wanting to get into research will have to get a PhD. A DVM is not a research degree - it does not prepare you in any way to do high-level research. A plain old DVM will always come in second to a PhD in the field when it comes to research. So that is 4-5 more years of getting paid crap while your debt compounds - not an option many of us have. NIH funding, especially for new researchers, is awful. I was insanely lucky to be on the grant I am currently on.

I'll tell you a secret - most research labs do not give a crap about a DVM. They don't care that yo uknow how to do colic surgery on a horse. They want you to be able to do high level immunology, toxicology, whatever that a vet is simply not trained to do. They will hire a PhD over a plain DVM every time.

Or are you talking about government regulatory jobs? Those come in two main flavors right now - entry level slaughterhouse work/food inspection and upper-level management that also require 1) additional degrees 2) additional training 3) usually more experience than the average graduating DVM has. Entry-level positions are few and far between, whether it is epidemiology (usually also requires another degree), public health (will require an MPH,) etc.

Or are you talking about lab animal, toxicology, pathology...all of those also require residency and extra training. Again, this is not an option for everyone. All the specialties right now are slowly becoming saturated.

International work? Pays crap unless you are lucky enough to get on a big grant or scholarship (or do the military route), which again usually requires more experience than simply a DVM.

Don't drink the Kool-Aid that there are so many jobs for vets outside of the generic practice scenario. There are SOME jobs for vets who take on additional YEARS of training, AFTER 4 years and 140k of debt. They aren't just lying around for a green fresh-out-of-fourth-year DVM to snatch up.

And frankly, it makes complete sense. The DVM is a clinical degree. We are trained to be doctors. If we want to do something NOT clinical, we're going to need to take additional time and often additional debt to qualify for it.
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I really don't understand why you feel the need to go down a list and attempt to paint the gloomiest picture possible for every facet of this field.

Several people in this thread sound like they would never in a million years want to be a veterinarian, and it baffles me why anyone would encourage the repetitive (for 2 pages now) self-pitying sermon about how much of a dead end a DVM is. At this point it seems rather useless to argue any specifics because there is so much dedication within the "we're eff'd" camp to make sure everyone else agrees how poor and mistreated veterinarians are.
The people who have posted optimistic views are not ignorant. They are willing to consider their options instead of rapidly discrediting them. These "reality checks" are just thinly veiled attempts to discourage other people from doing anything other than complain about the current state of the field.
 
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anesthtc said:
I really don't understand why you feel the need to go down a list and attempt to paint the gloomiest picture possible for every facet of this field.

Several people in this thread sound like they would never in a million years want to be a veterinarian, and it baffles me why anyone would encourage the repetitive (for 2 pages now) self-pitying sermon about how much of a dead end a DVM is. At this point it seems rather useless to argue any specifics because there is so much dedication within the "we're eff'd" camp to make sure everyone else agrees how poor and mistreated veterinarians are.
The people who have posted optimistic views are not ignorant. They are willing to consider their options instead of rapidly discrediting them. It's a thinly veiled attempt to discourage other people from doing anything other than complain about the current state of the field.
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The reason some of us are discouraged is because we were told over and over how many jobs there were and what a great future we were looking at. Which was not the case when we graduated. I would never tell someone not to be a vet if that's what they have their heart set on but I also want to paint a realistic picture for future graduates
 
anesthtc said:
I really don't understand why you feel the need to go down a list and attempt to paint the gloomiest picture possible for every facet of this field.

Several people in this thread sound like they would never in a million years want to be a veterinarian, and it baffles me why anyone would encourage the repetitive (for 2 pages now) self-pitying sermon about how much of a dead end a DVM is. At this point it seems rather useless to argue any specifics because there is so much dedication within the "we're eff'd" camp to make sure everyone else agrees how poor and mistreated veterinarians are.
The people who have posted optimistic views are not ignorant. They are willing to consider their options instead of rapidly discrediting them. It's a thinly veiled attempt to discourage other people from doing anything other than complain about the current state of the field.
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it is the opposite.. it is an attempt to stop the pollyannas who have been sticking their heads in the sand for 10 years saying everything is fine.

Until people stop ignoring the info and calling us naysayers, nothing changes, and the situation continues to deteriorate.

Sorry if you don't like it, but it is this attitude that we are fighting.

The industry is NOT ok. It is getting worse. And better to try to change before we hit rock bottom.
 
anesthtc said:
The people who have posted optimistic views are not ignorant. They are willing to consider their options instead of rapidly discrediting them. These "reality checks" are just thinly veiled attempts to discourage other people from doing anything other than complain about the current state of the field.
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What options? I watched 1/2 the graduating class from Penn ending back up in internships etc, delaying the problem for another year. I see the job-seekers this year having trouble in their chosen areas. This is what they get after 4 years of professional school and 250k in debt?
That is not right, and it is not sustainable.

Schools are under incredible financial pressure and increase class size and raise tuition, and the dedicated, wonderful people who are entering the profession are the ones getting the most screwed.

No, I think that is worse than subjecting you to a little negativity.
 
anesthtc said:
I really don't understand why you feel the need to go down a list and attempt to paint the gloomiest picture possible for every facet of this field.

Several people in this thread sound like they would never in a million years want to be a veterinarian, and it baffles me why anyone would encourage the repetitive (for 2 pages now) self-pitying sermon about how much of a dead end a DVM is. At this point it seems rather useless to argue any specifics because there is so much dedication within the "we're eff'd" camp to make sure everyone else agrees how poor and mistreated veterinarians are.
The people who have posted optimistic views are not ignorant. They are willing to consider their options instead of rapidly discrediting them. It's a thinly veiled attempt to discourage other people from doing anything other than complain about the current state of the field.
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We aren't being self-pitying. We aren't being negative. We are being realistic... this is reality... either you like it or not, but calling people who paint the realistic view of the profession for everyone as "negative" does not help anyone. We could sit back and talk about how awesome being a vet is and how it is the greatest career ever and have a "don't worry" attitude, but that isn't fair or real. I am sorry that you hate the fact we aren't painting a roses and daises view of the field, but that isn't accurate or fair to those looking for a real answers about the profession. We are being honest and real; if that bothers you then too damn bad. At least when you graduate from vet school and are 3 months out of school still without a job, you can't say that we didn't warn you. Welcome to real life, it isn't all roses, daises and happy endings and realistic viewpoints are not negative viewpoints just because YOU don't like what that reality is.
 
anesthtc said:
I really don't understand why you feel the need to go down a list and attempt to paint the gloomiest picture possible for every facet of this field.

Several people in this thread sound like they would never in a million years want to be a veterinarian, and it baffles me why anyone would encourage the repetitive (for 2 pages now) self-pitying sermon about how much of a dead end a DVM is. At this point it seems rather useless to argue any specifics because there is so much dedication within the "we're eff'd" camp to make sure everyone else agrees how poor and mistreated veterinarians are.
The people who have posted optimistic views are not ignorant. They are willing to consider their options instead of rapidly discrediting them. These "reality checks" are just thinly veiled attempts to discourage other people from doing anything other than complain about the current state of the field.
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Where did I say having a DVM is a dead end? Where did I say anyone was effed?

I was referring to the assumption you made that there is a demand for vets in non-clinical settings. I clarified that this path often (if not always) requires additional training, time, and sometimes money, and that it is a tight business. As someone who is in the midst of a semi-non-clinical career path myself, I wanted to point out the caveats to such an assumption.

And for the record, I was not "rapidly discrediting" anything. Nor was I complaining. I have seen what it's like for vets in nontraditional clinical jobs over the last several years (I'm currently IN one and had to fight tooth and nail to get it), and am correcting a statement you made.
 
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DVMDream said:
We aren't being self-pitying. We aren't being negative. We are being realistic... this is reality... either you like it or not, but calling people who paint the realistic view of the profession for everyone as "negative" does not help anyone. We could sit back and talk about how awesome being a vet is and how it is the greatest career ever and have a "don't worry" attitude, but that isn't fair or real. I am sorry that you hate the fact we aren't painting a roses and daises view of the field, but that isn't accurate or fair to those looking for a real answers about the profession. We are being honest and real; if that bothers you then too damn bad. At least when you graduate from vet school and are 3 months out of school still without a job, you can't say that we didn't warn you. Welcome to real life, it isn't all roses, daises and happy endings and realistic viewpoints are not negative viewpoints just because YOU don't like what that reality is.
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And being mad on the internet accomplishes...?
 
StartingoverVet said:
I give up on this thread.

It just frustrates me no end. Although I agree with @rodeomarie 's point about a lack of leadership. The problem is that so few people want a leader it seems to me.
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A good friend and former professor of mine and I had a good discussion about this recently.

He's been on several task forces with regards to veterinary education and industry, and actually opened my eyes a bit. There are a ton of people working behind the scenes at the AVMA fighting to be heard - the problem is, there is too much "management" and not enough leadership at the top levels. There are definitely grassroots people in the AVMA working very hard for us.

My previous intensely distasteful view of the AVMA was softened a bit as he told me about the work he and others had done. We are setting up more meetings with other clinicians at school to discuss these matters as well as educational theory. Over beer and wings, of course 😉 But no, I think eventually the voices are going to be too loud to ignore. We can only hope.
 
I just interviewed here and was shocked to find how much I loved it. They are addressing a lot of problems I know my IS school has and really focusing on getting students competent in surgery upon graduating. I think if a new grad applies for a job and can do spays, neuters, mass removals by themselves, its not going to matter much where they came from. I have worked with new doctors and it takes a solid year to get them comfortable in the OR. Vets make ton of money in surgery so there hope that these skills will make up for being the first graduating class.
 
Scarlettmorgana said:
I just interviewed here and was shocked to find how much I loved it. They are addressing a lot of problems I know my IS school has and really focusing on getting students competent in surgery upon graduating. I think if a new grad applies for a job and can do spays, neuters, mass removals by themselves, its not going to matter much where they came from. I have worked with new doctors and it takes a solid year to get them comfortable in the OR. Vets make ton of money in surgery so there hope that these skills will make up for being the first graduating class.
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Thank you for getting back to the thread topic.
 
Scarlettmorgana said:
I just interviewed here and was shocked to find how much I loved it. They are addressing a lot of problems I know my IS school has and really focusing on getting students competent in surgery upon graduating. I think if a new grad applies for a job and can do spays, neuters, mass removals by themselves, its not going to matter much where they came from. I have worked with new doctors and it takes a solid year to get them comfortable in the OR. Vets make ton of money in surgery so there hope that these skills will make up for being the first graduating class.
Click to expand...
If you attend you shouldn't have any problem. Not the issue at all. Western's grads didn't seem to have any stigma either.

As for the vets making tons of money in surgery. I would say do more research on that. If you want to mainly surgery you will likely need to go to a residency program. As a GP you will likely do simple surgeries but that is likely all. (And simply =cheap).
 
StartingoverVet said:
If you attend you shouldn't have any problem. Not the issue at all. Western's grads didn't seem to have any stigma either.
.
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I don't know how widespread the sentiment was, but I remember years ago when the first classes were graduating from Western, the common quote from my boss was "I'd rather hire a Ross grad than one of 'those' Western people." Plus " How do they learn like that, anyway?/ What a waste of 300,000 dollars" She received a few resumes from Western grads and wouldn't even consider them for the open position because she didn't trust the education.
Maybe it was just her, but she was overall pretty easy going about most things, so I was surprised to hear her so outspoken against one school. I've only worked with one Western grad and I never had any issues with her or felt like she was lacking in any way. I think there were always be at least a few vets who are suspicious of new schools and their quality, though.
 
cowgirla said:
I don't know how widespread the sentiment was, but I remember years ago when the first classes were graduating from Western, the common quote from my boss was "I'd rather hire a Ross grad than one of 'those' Western people." Plus " How do they learn like that, anyway?/ What a waste of 300,000 dollars" She received a few resumes from Western grads and wouldn't even consider them for the open position because she didn't trust the education.
Maybe it was just her, but she was overall pretty easy going about most things, so I was surprised to hear her so outspoken against one school. I've only worked with one Western grad and I never had any issues with her or felt like she was lacking in any way. I think there were always be at least a few vets who are suspicious of new schools and their quality, though.
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Yeah. Hard to argue with that.

But then again, there are always some vets who have some problem with something or other.

I think Western not having their own hospital was something so radically new that people were suspicious of it.
In the end, I am not so sure that maybe Western didn't stumble on a good thing there.... their graduates have a much better idea of what life will be like in real practices when they leave. They might actually be BETTER prepared than the rest.. But that is a discussion for another thread! (or perhaps this one, as this is the direction all the new schools seem to be heading).
 
StartingoverVet said:
If you attend you shouldn't have any problem. Not the issue at all. Western's grads didn't seem to have any stigma either.

As for the vets making tons of money in surgery. I would say do more research on that. If you want to mainly surgery you will likely need to go to a residency program. As a GP you will likely do simple surgeries but that is likely all. (And simply =cheap).
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This comes from looking at how much the clinic lost by accepting low cost spay/ neuter certificates and from the doctor's I worked with complaining that it was a major source of revenue for them. This could have been the market I was in but I have worked in two states and this seems to be an ongoing theme
 
SOV, I think Scarlett meant that surgery provides a large proportion of a clinic's income, not that it makes a lot of money as an absolute. It was worded a bit oddly, but that's how I interpreted it after she clarified.

Although that's an interesting question. I was always under the impression that the largest proportion of a clinic's income was actually preventive care and pharmacy.
 
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Its just time; for a new puppy exam you can easily spend an hour and make $250. When that puppy comes into be neutered = 10 minutes to get a catheter put in (I am accounting for a wiggly puppy), 30 minutes in surgery including prep, 20 minutes recovery and a 10 minute look at the dog on the way out the door while explaining instructions for mom and dad. The average price where I work for a neuter is about $450-500. It just makes a lot more money for the amount of time. Doctors (the practices I have worked at anyway) receive a large portion of price of of the neuter as I work in a hospital where they are paid on commission.

Anyway we digress. What are your feelings on the use of a humane society instead of a teaching hospital. I was speaking to a former boss of mine and she brought up the point of if you are seeing intakes and general cases you are not going to get any experience with complex cases such as long term management of diabetes or how to treat an Addisonian crisis. Again in five years of teching I have never seen Addison's because we always pushed the animal into Cushings but now after this conversation I have a new found fear of Addison's. Great.
 
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$450-500? Holy shyte. Where I'm from a neuter is around $100 or so. I can't fathom a neuter costing that much. You must be from a big city.

Having spent the last three years working at a teaching hospital (post-vet school), I think both they and general clinics (you know, the GP vet down the street kind of thing) have their merits. I think that while it is good for future clinicians to manage complex cases, they can make you have tunnel vision. You start looking for zebras instead of horses. Admittedly, most of the cases that came all the way to us (necropsy) were obviously much more advanced that what the average clinician would see.

However, by the same token, working only at general practices (at least in the initial stages of training) may give you the opposite kind of tunnel vision. You start assuming the most common differential diagnoses without thinking of "what else" it could be.

Working only at humane societies would be the worst of the three, I would think, because you aren't generally involved in long-term care, as both a teaching hospital and a general practice would be. Plus the finances are not usually there on the owner's side to even provide that long-term care.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Although that's an interesting question. I was always under the impression that the largest proportion of a clinic's income was actually preventive care and pharmacy.
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I don't think surgery would be a big portion of the clinic's revenue, but I think it would be a significant portion of the doctor's income.

The pharmacy is the biggest money maker for a clinic, although with online meds and grocery stores and such starting to carry veterinary drugs, that's probably going to change soon. I could see preventative medicine taking over for sure.
 
TooLove said:
The pharmacy is the biggest money maker for a clinic, although with online meds and grocery stores and such starting to carry veterinary drugs, that's probably going to change soon. I could see preventative medicine taking over for sure.
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I think it really depends on the track you went on there... All the food animal vets I've worked with make a lot of their money selling the injectable antibiotics like Nuflor, baytril, or draxxin. I don't see those jumping into retail anytime soon. Other than that, I see your point though...
 
Chkntree4 said:
I think it really depends on the track you went on there... All the food animal vets I've worked with make a lot of their money selling the injectable antibiotics like Nuflor, baytril, or draxxin. I don't see those jumping into retail anytime soon. Other than that, I see your point though...
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This is true. I was speaking more about small animal private practice. This past summer I had a client request a script for temaril-p so she could get it at walmart. I had no idea at the time that it was even possible. There are some practices in our area that are charging fees for written prescriptions to try to offset the loss in drug sales since it's becoming so common. I can only imagine it's going to continue and spread to other areas of the profession as well.
 
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