Lion air crash

[nimbus]

In Lion Air Crash, Black Box Data Reveals Pilots’ Struggle to Regain Control

More lessons from aviation. In this case a design change was implemented without adequate education. Comments section is worth a read with many pilots weighing in.

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[drmwvr]

I've always found the aviation/anesthesia association to be loose at best. Where they intersect is pre flight/induction check list - attention lapse, but I think after that there is pretty significant disparity, not the least of which is because the anesthesiologist doesn't die with the soul in his care, nor does anyone else die or get injured in the event of catastrophe. We could just as well say our job is as associated with the rail road industry. Aviation is just cooler.

Add to that the fact that in no case would a commercial airline pilot take an airplane into the air with a less than 40% chance of landing the aircraft, while we accept risk like that for the patient not infrequently with the best of intentions. And passengers don't die a month after a flight because of what happened on the flight (ordinarily). It's a completely different mindset.

Cardiovascular collapse and lost airways 2/2 morbidity and inattention are why people are injured and die in our hands but there are orders of magnitude more reasons why airplanes crash. The aircraft is the pilot's patient and there is vastly more variability in airframes and the conditions in which they operate than human beings even with our diverse pathologies. And we've been studying humans for far longer than airframes.

I suppose there is the flight attendant/nurse association, but I shan't go there...

 

[deleted697535]

If someone passes the medicine/aviation analogy once more I'll scream!

How often does an airplane smoke 20 cigarettes a day for 40 years and weigh in twice to 4 times their ideal bodyweight, and also have 10 extra passengers on board without seats. How often do pilots work 24 hours straight? And machines/engines/turbines give failure reports and have expected life span at which time they are unceremoniously binned, we don't have that luxury...

 

[GravelRider]

I don’t think people make the medicine/aviation analogy based on how similar they are. They are vastly different. However, the comparison has to do with human error. There are factors that are involved in human error that are pretty universal...whether it’s treating a patient, flying a plane, driving a car, or operating a nuclear reactor. Figuring out ways to build in redundancy to any system (like color-coded medication tops) to reduce human-caused-error has universal applications. That’s where the similarities are. Medical and aviation mistakes just happen to be the most newsworthy.

 

[Mman]

Add to that the fact that in no case would a commercial airline pilot take an airplane into the air with a less than 40% chance of landing the aircraft, while we accept risk like that for the patient not infrequently with the best of intentions.

How frequently are you anesthetizing patients that have less than a 40% chance of waking up from the surgery? I mean that's a less than once a year event for me and tends to be the trauma patient getting CPR coming down the hallway to the OR.

 

[caligas]

If someone passes the medicine/aviation analogy once more I'll scream!

How often does an airplane smoke 20 cigarettes a day for 40 years and weigh in twice to 4 times their ideal bodyweight, and also have 10 extra passengers on board without seats. How often do pilots work 24 hours straight? And machines/engines/turbines give failure reports and have expected life span at which time they are unceremoniously binned, we don't have that luxury...

How often does an anesthesiologist kill 300 people at once?

 

[Mr.S]

I've always found the aviation/anesthesia association to be loose at best. Where they intersect is pre flight/induction check list - attention lapse, but I think after that there is pretty significant disparity, not the least of which is because the anesthesiologist doesn't die with the soul in his care, nor does anyone else die or get injured in the event of catastrophe. We could just as well say our job is as associated with the rail road industry. Aviation is just cooler.

Add to that the fact that in no case would a commercial airline pilot take an airplane into the air with a less than 40% chance of landing the aircraft, while we accept risk like that for the patient not infrequently with the best of intentions. And passengers don't die a month after a flight because of what happened on the flight (ordinarily). It's a completely different mindset.

Cardiovascular collapse and lost airways 2/2 morbidity and inattention are why people are injured and die in our hands but there are orders of magnitude more reasons why airplanes crash. The aircraft is the pilot's patient and there is vastly more variability in airframes and the conditions in which they operate than human beings even with our diverse pathologies. And we've been studying humans for far longer than airframes.

I suppose there is the flight attendant/nurse association, but I shan't go there...

Most people accept and embrace the airline/pilot analogy because they are not intellectually honest. They are average. Most people are average.

 

[DM27]

What kept popping into my head as I read that article was "this sounds like if an Alaris pump controlled my machine's gas flow".

 

[nimbus]

There are a lot of universally applicable lessons.

Training on new equipment. Understanding new equipment. Communication about design changes. Electronic control systems and their failures. Equipment maintenance issues. Information overload. Conflicting information. Crisis management.

I think about the old Drager Narkomeds and pre-GE Ohmedas that were mechanical, not electronic, and how simple and intuitive those machines were.

I understand there are many dissimilaties too. Among them weather, risk to our pilots’ own lives, and scale of disaster.

I encourage people to read the comments section, where many experienced pilots weigh in. Interesting to read their analysis and approach.

 

[drmwvr]

How frequently are you anesthetizing patients that have less than a 40% chance of waking up from the surgery? I mean that's a less than once a year event for me and tends to be the trauma patient getting CPR coming down the hallway to the OR.

Busy chest/vascular practice. I'd say no less than 6 times a year...ruptures, dissections etc...

 

[pgg]

There are a lot of universally applicable lessons.

Training on new equipment. Understanding new equipment. Communication about design changes. Electronic control systems and their failures. Equipment maintenance issues. Information overload. Conflicting information. Crisis management.

I think about the old Drager Narkomeds and pre-GE Ohmedas that were mechanical, not electronic, and how simple and intuitive those machines were.

I understand there are many dissimilaties too. Among them weather, risk to our pilots’ own lives, and scale of disaster.

I encourage people to read the comments section, where many experienced pilots weigh in. Interesting to read their analysis and approach.

I think the aviation analogy is reasonably apt in a lot of ways. Of course, like all analogies, it's not perfect.

I'm a little surprised at the number of weirdly contemptuous and dismissive posts about it in this thread.

 

[Mman]

Busy chest/vascular practice. I'd say no less than 6 times a year...ruptures, dissections etc...

I find that depressing and I take care of some extremely sick patients at a level 1 trauma center with some of the sickest patients in the country.