- Joined
- Jun 27, 2000
- Messages
- 47
- Reaction score
- 0
I have the impression that there are a number of DO schools that are not very highly regarded. This is based upon conversations that I've had at various DO schools, both with students and interviewers.
Western University seemed to be the school that most people frowned upon. Apparently the major reason for attending it is that one is able to live in Southern California. Considering that many schools are in less-than-friendly areas weather-wise, it is not difficult to see why this would be a factor.
Another aspect of Western is that it's located nearby a bunch of medical schools and its students are able to rotate at them. It appears that its students believe that this makes them much more competitive for residencies than other DO students who studied too far away to afford to come to CA for a rotation.
Sadly, this is not the case. DO students, despite the sunny proclamations of many posters on this site, are still regarded as second-rate medical students by most of the allopathic (read: 90% of the medical profession) world.
I don't care to debate the veracity of this statement. It's true and a simple inspection of the average DO school's matriculants is a good place to start when one is seeking an answer for this phenomenon. I don't know of any DO schools whose average MCAT is even a thirty; most are somewhere in the 8.3 per subset range. It's true that the average GPA isn't that different from that of the average person accepted into MD schools, but you need to remember that grading criteria vary drastically from school to school. Indeed, that's why the MCAT was developed: to ferret out the smart from the not-so-smart. There are a number of MD schools that cater to those who get in based on racial preferences (e.g. Howard, Morehouse, and Meharry, where the average MCATs are abysmal). If they were removed from the calculations and Harvard and Wash U. etc. were also dropped, we'd still see two very different MCAT pictures when comparing MD and DO schools.
Back to Western. The school itself is not a very pretty place. Situated in an old mall (I kid you not), it's hardly what one would think of when asked to imagine the ideal place in which medicine would be taught.
The administration seemed nice enough, as did the students whom we met during the interview. This brings up an interesting point: DO people are generally nicer than MD people are. It's something I've seen time and again on my interviews. There seemed to be a remarkably homogenous group of people around, particularly with respect to their lack of interest in competing with one another. If you hated pre-med gunners in your UG years, then this sort of laid-back attitude may suit you quite nicely.
With respect to hospital facilities, I soon learned that DO schools typically don't have anything really fancy nearby. If I am spending more than $20 K per year you'd better believe that I want a hospital that's close to campus. Sadly, that isn't the case. I won't reprise the argument here, but other people on this website have gone into great detail regarding DO schools' problems with securing training facilities and dedicated, full-time instructors.
UHS in Kansas City seemed to be a better school than Western. Although it lacked much in the way of a hospital system that one could get to readily from the main campus, it was much nicer and more modern than Western U. Also, the faculty seemed to be a bit more demanding and to have a bit more confidence than their Western U. counterparts.
Overall, my impression of Western U., not surprisingly, is that it's not a great school to go to. True, it's in LA County, but you're more likely to get a good residency if you go to a better school. As a final note, I have kept in touch with all five of the other interviewees from my group. Three of us got into MD schools soon after our Western U. interview; two were notified of their acceptance at other DO schools (Iowa and NYCOM); the sixth person did accept the Western U. offer but is still alive on the MSU waitlist.
If I were to rank the DO schools in terms of their ability to give you a good education (access to a wide variety of clinical situations, good basic science background, etc.), it would look like this:
1. MSU-COM--Ranked very high in the most recent US News and World Reports for primary care (even higher than its MD counterpart, MSU College of Human Medicine).
2. UNECOM--My interviewer at MSU called this school the "best of the lot." It accepts students that are, on average, from much better New England schools (where the grading is a bit more difficult than, say, Long Beach State). I placed it at number two, however, because it is not as well known as MSU and there aren't quite as many clinical affiliates.
3. NYCOM--Great clinical affiliations throughout NYC, a good basic science background, and most of all, DOs on the East Coast are better respected than their West Coast counterparts, so one has a better shot at a good residency there.
4. Kirksville--Has the highest average MCAT for matriculants. Also, going to the first DO school may confer a sense of uniqueness to you, especially if you apply to an osteopathic residency. That last one may be a stretch, but when I did my Navy physical the doc was from Kirksville and he told me that having gone to "the granddaddy" of DO schools was a plus when it came to getting a residency. He's also nearly seventy years old, so take that tidbit with a grain of salt.
5. "The Des Moines school"--can't remember the name but it's a good one. Plenty of good affiliations and a supportive faculty that is dedicated to ensuring your success.
I don't know enough about the other schools to rank them, but I can offer some random advice.
The schools in NJ, Texas, and West Virginia really want you to be a resident. For that matter, so do UNECOM and NYCOM. MSU-COM is less demanding about this, but they still want a lot of people from Michigan.
I've never heard anything really good about NOVA, and I've talked to a lot of people who interviewed there. Adrian makes some valid points, many of which were not unfamiliar to me based upon conversations with those who have friends who attend NOVA.
Now, I'm sure that the above statements have ruffled more than a few peoples' feathers. Let it be known that I fully believe in the technical capabilities of DOs. In fact, I have seen one several times for a very sore neck. But let's not kid ourselves when it comes to the current climate in medicine. DOs are making inroads into mainstream medicine in ways that were unimaginable twenty years ago. But it will be a long time before the title "DO" is not seen as a liability by residency directors at allopathic programs.
MD residency directors will continue to view DOs who apply to their programs as failed MD applicants. It's true that there will be some people who could have gone to MD school but chose DO instead because they preferred the philosophy, or because the location was much better for them. But you can rest assured that in the back of the residency director's mind, when she's looking over your application, she'll wonder why you are applying to an MD program when you felt so strongly about the DO philosophy. A few applicants may be able to say convince her that they still believe in the "DO philosophy" and that allopathic program just happens to be the one closest to home or is offering something that the DO programs don't but the majority won't--and the MDs know this. It will be painfully clear that the applicant is merely attempting to get into the allopathic world on further downstream, having already been rejected once before. Rest assured that the nurses, patients, and most of all, your fellow residents and attendings will, by and large, feel the same way. Please don't allow the histrionics of those who will post in repsonse to this list to convince you otherwise.
If you have a specific question, please post or e-mail me.
Good luck!
[This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-27-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-27-2000).]
Western University seemed to be the school that most people frowned upon. Apparently the major reason for attending it is that one is able to live in Southern California. Considering that many schools are in less-than-friendly areas weather-wise, it is not difficult to see why this would be a factor.
Another aspect of Western is that it's located nearby a bunch of medical schools and its students are able to rotate at them. It appears that its students believe that this makes them much more competitive for residencies than other DO students who studied too far away to afford to come to CA for a rotation.
Sadly, this is not the case. DO students, despite the sunny proclamations of many posters on this site, are still regarded as second-rate medical students by most of the allopathic (read: 90% of the medical profession) world.
I don't care to debate the veracity of this statement. It's true and a simple inspection of the average DO school's matriculants is a good place to start when one is seeking an answer for this phenomenon. I don't know of any DO schools whose average MCAT is even a thirty; most are somewhere in the 8.3 per subset range. It's true that the average GPA isn't that different from that of the average person accepted into MD schools, but you need to remember that grading criteria vary drastically from school to school. Indeed, that's why the MCAT was developed: to ferret out the smart from the not-so-smart. There are a number of MD schools that cater to those who get in based on racial preferences (e.g. Howard, Morehouse, and Meharry, where the average MCATs are abysmal). If they were removed from the calculations and Harvard and Wash U. etc. were also dropped, we'd still see two very different MCAT pictures when comparing MD and DO schools.
Back to Western. The school itself is not a very pretty place. Situated in an old mall (I kid you not), it's hardly what one would think of when asked to imagine the ideal place in which medicine would be taught.
The administration seemed nice enough, as did the students whom we met during the interview. This brings up an interesting point: DO people are generally nicer than MD people are. It's something I've seen time and again on my interviews. There seemed to be a remarkably homogenous group of people around, particularly with respect to their lack of interest in competing with one another. If you hated pre-med gunners in your UG years, then this sort of laid-back attitude may suit you quite nicely.
With respect to hospital facilities, I soon learned that DO schools typically don't have anything really fancy nearby. If I am spending more than $20 K per year you'd better believe that I want a hospital that's close to campus. Sadly, that isn't the case. I won't reprise the argument here, but other people on this website have gone into great detail regarding DO schools' problems with securing training facilities and dedicated, full-time instructors.
UHS in Kansas City seemed to be a better school than Western. Although it lacked much in the way of a hospital system that one could get to readily from the main campus, it was much nicer and more modern than Western U. Also, the faculty seemed to be a bit more demanding and to have a bit more confidence than their Western U. counterparts.
Overall, my impression of Western U., not surprisingly, is that it's not a great school to go to. True, it's in LA County, but you're more likely to get a good residency if you go to a better school. As a final note, I have kept in touch with all five of the other interviewees from my group. Three of us got into MD schools soon after our Western U. interview; two were notified of their acceptance at other DO schools (Iowa and NYCOM); the sixth person did accept the Western U. offer but is still alive on the MSU waitlist.
If I were to rank the DO schools in terms of their ability to give you a good education (access to a wide variety of clinical situations, good basic science background, etc.), it would look like this:
1. MSU-COM--Ranked very high in the most recent US News and World Reports for primary care (even higher than its MD counterpart, MSU College of Human Medicine).
2. UNECOM--My interviewer at MSU called this school the "best of the lot." It accepts students that are, on average, from much better New England schools (where the grading is a bit more difficult than, say, Long Beach State). I placed it at number two, however, because it is not as well known as MSU and there aren't quite as many clinical affiliates.
3. NYCOM--Great clinical affiliations throughout NYC, a good basic science background, and most of all, DOs on the East Coast are better respected than their West Coast counterparts, so one has a better shot at a good residency there.
4. Kirksville--Has the highest average MCAT for matriculants. Also, going to the first DO school may confer a sense of uniqueness to you, especially if you apply to an osteopathic residency. That last one may be a stretch, but when I did my Navy physical the doc was from Kirksville and he told me that having gone to "the granddaddy" of DO schools was a plus when it came to getting a residency. He's also nearly seventy years old, so take that tidbit with a grain of salt.
5. "The Des Moines school"--can't remember the name but it's a good one. Plenty of good affiliations and a supportive faculty that is dedicated to ensuring your success.
I don't know enough about the other schools to rank them, but I can offer some random advice.
The schools in NJ, Texas, and West Virginia really want you to be a resident. For that matter, so do UNECOM and NYCOM. MSU-COM is less demanding about this, but they still want a lot of people from Michigan.
I've never heard anything really good about NOVA, and I've talked to a lot of people who interviewed there. Adrian makes some valid points, many of which were not unfamiliar to me based upon conversations with those who have friends who attend NOVA.
Now, I'm sure that the above statements have ruffled more than a few peoples' feathers. Let it be known that I fully believe in the technical capabilities of DOs. In fact, I have seen one several times for a very sore neck. But let's not kid ourselves when it comes to the current climate in medicine. DOs are making inroads into mainstream medicine in ways that were unimaginable twenty years ago. But it will be a long time before the title "DO" is not seen as a liability by residency directors at allopathic programs.
MD residency directors will continue to view DOs who apply to their programs as failed MD applicants. It's true that there will be some people who could have gone to MD school but chose DO instead because they preferred the philosophy, or because the location was much better for them. But you can rest assured that in the back of the residency director's mind, when she's looking over your application, she'll wonder why you are applying to an MD program when you felt so strongly about the DO philosophy. A few applicants may be able to say convince her that they still believe in the "DO philosophy" and that allopathic program just happens to be the one closest to home or is offering something that the DO programs don't but the majority won't--and the MDs know this. It will be painfully clear that the applicant is merely attempting to get into the allopathic world on further downstream, having already been rejected once before. Rest assured that the nurses, patients, and most of all, your fellow residents and attendings will, by and large, feel the same way. Please don't allow the histrionics of those who will post in repsonse to this list to convince you otherwise.
If you have a specific question, please post or e-mail me.
Good luck!
[This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-27-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-27-2000).]
