List of Programs That Terminate Residents

[Gastrapathy]

I am about to launch a massive litigation against UCDenver, can’t wait to post all the details.

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[VA Hopeful Dr]

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I'm sure it entirely the fault of the program and not a result of anything the resident did at the time.

Like everyone else who has ever posted about this sort of thing before.

 

[Crayola227]

I am about to launch a massive litigation against UCDenver, can’t wait to post all the details.

 

[metenuzer]

Perhaps I should not have named the institution before I am ready to release my complaint. Yes I did stuff, they did stuff, the difference being I was aware of their tactics and thus I am left with a preponderance of evidence. This will not be he-said-she-said like a lot of the resident cases I have researched. If you believe you are in an adversarial situation with your program, record everything and keep every email.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Perhaps I should not have named the institution before I am ready to release my complaint. Yes I did stuff, they did stuff, the difference being I was aware of their tactics and thus I am left with a preponderance of evidence. This will not be he-said-she-said like a lot of the resident cases I have researched. If you believe you are in an adversarial situation with your program, record everything and keep every email.

I’m sure ol’ Eugene has this thread bookmarked. He’s pretty much persona non grata now, thankfully!

 

[metenuzer]

I’m sure ol’ Eugene has this thread bookmarked. He’s pretty much persona non grata now, thankfully!

I had forgotten how vitriolic SDN could be. I found this thread researching for cases similar to mine. What happened to me during my residency was not my fault but I was a participant throughout. University hospitals are often among the largest financial entities in a given state and I was told to just resign and go away and if I pursued any due process my reputation would continue to be ruined. Residents are a highly disenfranchised class of people, saddled with debt, enormous workloads and thus infinite professional and personal stress. I’m excited to let out the details once appropriate because mine is an egregious case.

 

[Mass Effect]

I had forgotten how vitriolic SDN could be. I found this thread researching for cases similar to mine. What happened to me during my residency was not my fault but I was a participant throughout. University hospitals are often among the largest financial entities in a given state and I was told to just resign and go away and if I pursued any due process my reputation would continue to be ruined. Residents are a highly disenfranchised class of people, saddled with debt, enormous workloads and thus infinite professional and personal stress. I’m excited to let out the details once appropriate because mine is an egregious case.

Looking forward to hearing it.

 

[captaincrunch]

We're all a little voyeuristic when it comes to dishy scenarios like this, but I would be careful broadcasting information that can be easily linked back to you. It's one thing to look for general advice. It's another thing to give out identifying details. But, hey, you do you.

 

[Crayola227]

legal nightmare

the legal system can doxx you all they like, they can go looking on the web and track your IP address if they want, they can subpoena your personal internet provider

I would also be extremely careful with all social media, I would likely stop using it entirely until proceedings are finished, and I would put everything in a category of needs to be private vs needs to be deleted entirely

I was told by my attorney that *anyone* can me made a witness in court, as well

depending on the situation even your medical records and personal healthcare professionals can be subpoenaed

I don't know if your physical or mental wellness was involved in this at all, but if so, I would also carefully consider that as well moving forward

and before people jump in and talk about how your medical records are sacrosanct, let me just tell you they're not

subpoena is word of the day today

 

[Crayola227]

The fact that you're being so vocal about your program in particular, worries me. It calls into question your judgement in doing so, and therefore your judgment overall. It possibly suggests that you are coming here with a mission of revenge, because otherwise I might have expected that you got what you deserved in court, or have an NDA, or both. If this is about more than a vendetta, I would expect that it would be more important to set aside slandering your institution and alienating readers, in the goal of passing on valuable lessons to other residents in trouble. Lesson number one being keep your mouth closed about your particulars.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

The fact that you're being so vocal about your program in particular, worries me. It calls into question your judgement in doing so, and therefore your judgment overall. It possibly suggests that you are coming here with a mission of revenge, because otherwise I might have expected that you got what you deserved in court, or have an NDA, or both. If this is about more than a vendetta, I would expect that it would be more important to set aside slandering your institution and alienating readers, in the goal of passing on valuable lessons to other residents in trouble. Lesson number one being keep your mouth closed about your particulars.

But what about the lulz?

 

[WingedOx]

We're all a little voyeuristic when it comes to dishy scenarios like this, but I would be careful broadcasting information that can be easily linked back to you. It's one thing to look for general advice. It's another thing to give out identifying details. But, hey, you do you.

eh, nevermind.

 

[metenuzer]

Hmmm...in rereading through this thread it seems to have devolved quite a bit with some interesting characters. I mean yes a vendetta sounds good, sure. If my impression of UCD is right, their associate dean for GME would not be able to pick me out of a line up of residents she fired. In fact, during one of our meetings she kept referencing things another resident in my program had done that landed him or her on probation. My case is not like this one but I found it an interesting read: Google "st croix vs university of colorado," unfortunately she lost pretty hard.

 

[BoardingDoc]

they can go looking on the web and track your IP address if they want, they can subpoena your personal internet provider

I agree with everything else you wrote, but can you cite any examples of when this has happened in a similar case? I am aware that it is possible to do what you're saying, but from a technical point of view, there needs to be a very specific set of circumstances before this sort of thing would even be considered, let alone allowed.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Hmmm...in rereading through this thread it seems to have devolved quite a bit with some interesting characters. I mean yes a vendetta sounds good, sure. If my impression of UCD is right, their associate dean for GME would not be able to pick me out of a line up of residents she fired. In fact, during one of our meetings she kept referencing things another resident in my program had done that landed him or her on probation. My case is not like this one but I found it an interesting read: Google "st croix vs university of colorado," unfortunately she lost pretty hard.

Just googled the case you said. The brief states that there are certain undisputed facts. Of those facts, it includes the statements that
- Dr. St Croix wasn't at the level of a PGY2 when she was promoted to it and that she arrived in that position on probation with a requirement that she meet an A or B level review in order to continue.
- She continued to receive C and D level evaluations through the end of 2002
- Some crap involving pornographic photos shows up in Dec of 2002, after she has already failed to meet the terms of continued employment
- She gets fired and claims it has to do with the fact that she posed nude.

There seems to be pretty clear cut documentation that she was on her way to getting fired before these photos even showed up. The fact that she sued seems like a last ditch attempt to have the legal system force her residency program to keep her, rather than a legitimate response to an unfair dismissal.

 

[Raryn]

Hmmm...in rereading through this thread it seems to have devolved quite a bit with some interesting characters. I mean yes a vendetta sounds good, sure. If my impression of UCD is right, their associate dean for GME would not be able to pick me out of a line up of residents she fired. In fact, during one of our meetings she kept referencing things another resident in my program had done that landed him or her on probation. My case is not like this one but I found it an interesting read: Google "st croix vs university of colorado," unfortunately she lost pretty hard.

That's a great find.

TL;DR summary: In 2001-2003 a general surgery resident who happened to be an Asian woman struggled during her intern year, was promoted to PGY2 while on probation, and continued to struggle during her PGY2 year. Meanwhile, someone within the program finds photos of her alleged prior career as an amateur porn star. Due to her continued poor performance AND concern that these photos may impact the reputation of the university, she was fired. She alleged that the firing was due to her race/gender and the court disagreed, which was upheld on appeal. Looks like the only mistake the program made was even mentioning the photos - but it didn't matter.

Edit: Dammit, Boardingdoc beat me to it by a few seconds! Fake news!

 

[Crayola227]

I agree with everything else you wrote, but can you cite any examples of when this has happened in a similar case? I am aware that it is possible to do what you're saying, but from a technical point of view, there needs to be a very specific set of circumstances before this sort of thing would even be considered, let alone allowed.

I don't know specifics. I thought possibly this came up on SDN even, before.

In any case just something my attorney told me regarding being careful what you say about an employer online. Or a site like SDN.

This is related to defamation, which is basically what we're talking about.

Utilizing IP Addresses to Subpoena Internet Service Providers (ISPs): Vorys, Sater, Seymour and Pease LLP

 

[Crayola227]

When an attorney says something is a bad idea to my face, I tend to just sorta take their word for that kind of thing.

 

[Crayola227]

I think aPD or someone else here posted a link to a really long brief where in the battle between a doc and... was it the board or a training program?.... the employee tried to anonymously send/post some pretty bizarre threatening stuff online, and it was tracked.

 

[Crayola227]

SDN, Twitter, FB, even under dummy emails and such. Better not be any ISP that could reasonably be linked to you. Don't think access from the local library's computers is a safe thing to do if you have a card & a login.

An attorney told me that private FB information and posts had been subpoenaed by Social Security in determining SSI cases. If Social Security Administration can go to that much trouble over the King's ransom of $776 a month, I just don't put any online trail past the long arm of the law, however unlikely it is to come down to it.

 

[Goro]

The fact that you're being so vocal about your program in particular, worries me. It calls into question your judgement in doing so, and therefore your judgment overall. It possibly suggests that you are coming here with a mission of revenge, because otherwise I might have expected that you got what you deserved in court, or have an NDA, or both. If this is about more than a vendetta, I would expect that it would be more important to set aside slandering your institution and alienating readers, in the goal of passing on valuable lessons to other residents in trouble. Lesson number one being keep your mouth closed about your particulars.

To quote my learned colleague: "Get used to the taste of your tongue".

 

[captaincrunch]

Just googled the case you said. The brief states that there are certain undisputed facts. Of those facts, it includes the statements that
- Dr. St Croix wasn't at the level of a PGY2 when she was promoted to it and that she arrived in that position on probation with a requirement that she meet an A or B level review in order to continue.
- She continued to receive C and D level evaluations through the end of 2002
- Some crap involving pornographic photos shows up in Dec of 2002, after she has already failed to meet the terms of continued employment
- She gets fired and claims it has to do with the fact that she posed nude.

There seems to be pretty clear cut documentation that she was on her way to getting fired before these photos even showed up. The fact that she sued seems like a last ditch attempt to have the legal system force her residency program to keep her, rather than a legitimate response to an unfair dismissal.

Well, the case made for some reading.

 

[deuist]

That's a great find.

TL;DR summary: In 2001-2003 a general surgery resident who happened to be an Asian woman struggled during her intern year, was promoted to PGY2 while on probation, and continued to struggle during her PGY2 year. Meanwhile, someone within the program finds photos of her alleged prior career as an amateur porn star. Due to her continued poor performance AND concern that these photos may impact the reputation of the university, she was fired. She alleged that the firing was due to her race/gender and the court disagreed, which was upheld on appeal. Looks like the only mistake the program made was even mentioning the photos - but it didn't matter.

This case also highlights just how hard firing a resident can be. At any other job, if someone screwing up for months or even weeks at a time, he/she is going to get dismissed. This thread is full of legal cases in which a struggling resident remains on staff for years with multiple attempts at remediation before the hospital finally lets the resident go.

 

[instantkarma]

I had posted in eugenes defense in a "benefit of the doubt" manner. got to reverse my opinion after seeing the gomerblog, arrest stuff, etc etc. seems eugene's elevator does not reach the top floor.

sorry to disappoint those who theorized i am eugenes father or eugene.

i have seen residents that are not renewed based upon politics and clashing personalty with the wrong attending and or assistant dir or director.

as a senior resident i recall making multiple calls to programs in other states trying to place some pgy1's that despite strong performance could no longer continue in the program due to some state law about how many attempts with a certain time frame to pass applicable board exams to enter pg training. even the program had not been aware of it before hiring them.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I had posted in eugenes defense in a "benefit of the doubt" manner. got to reverse my opinion after seeing the gomerblog, arrest stuff, etc etc. seems eugene's elevator does not reach the top floor.

sorry to disappoint those who theorized i am eugenes father or eugene.

i have seen residents that are not renewed based upon politics and clashing personalty with the wrong attending and or assistant dir or director.

as a senior resident i recall making multiple calls to programs in other states trying to place some pgy1's that despite strong performance could no longer continue in the program due to some state law about how many attempts with a certain time frame to pass applicable board exams to enter pg training. even the program had not been aware of it before hiring them.

There is nothing wrong with giving someone the benefit of the doubt, in fact it’s admirable.

However our issue was that all the information about his seoming character flaws were widely known and available at the time you made your posts. We assumed you had knowledge of this ( because it had been discussed and available from multiple resources prior to the Gomer blog article ).

 

[instantkarma]

Every time I read about a resident getting fired and start following the links, I look at my clock to see that easily a couple of hours have passed. And in every instance, I think that the firing is justified. No hospital wants its doctors on the news for suing the President of the United States for something as relatively minor as blocking a twitter account for harassment.

when i was a resident the internet did not exist as it does today. although it would have helped to look up stuff i think residency in of itself was all time consuming and one needed to pretty much focus on it and little else. you had to have the attitude that for x number of years nothing else exists in the world. not having work hours limitations did not help. pd would have told us its either residency or your other activities, choose or pd will choose for you.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

There is nothing wrong with giving someone the benefit of the doubt, in fact it’s admirable.

However our issue was that all the information about his seoming character flaws were widely known and available at the time you made your posts. We assumed you had knowledge of this ( because it had been discussed and available from multiple resources prior to the Gomer blog article ).

It's almost like anyone who's been in medicine for more than 60 Seconds knows that you don't get put on probation for no reason.

 

[Goro]

It's almost like anyone who's been in medicine for more than 60 Seconds knows that you don't get put on probation for no reason.

 

[instantkarma]

welcome to the real world precious snowflake

 

[AdmiralChz]

not renewed based on politics

That’s a feint used by people like Eugene who actively goaded their employer in the public and was in all likelihood a maniac to work with in real life. He calls it “politics” but others would call it being a tornado of problems.

 

[WingedOx]

That’s a feint used by people like Eugene who actively goaded their employer in the public and was in all likelihood a maniac to work with in real life. He calls it “politics” but others would call it being a tornado of problems.

Actually, we go around monitoring residents' text messages looking for any hint of conservative thought and fire them on the spot. It's true.

Spoiler

Though on all seriousness, actually firing a resident is such a pain in the ass, you have to seriously earn it. Just fixing the gap in call coverage the year we had a resident quit was obnoxious

 

[metenuzer]

My account is still too young to post a link but google “UMN resident firing” and this case is not horribly dissimilar from mine.

 

[Apollyon]

My account is still too young to post a link but google “UMN resident firing” and this case is not horribly dissimilar from mine.

Googled it, no results. Even requiring "firing" gets nothing. Likewise, "fired" gets nothing. At all.

 

[metenuzer]

Googled it, no results. Even requiring "firing" gets nothing. Likewise, "fired" gets nothing. At all.

Apologies.

Should be UNM for university of New Mexico.

 

[raiderette]

If your case is similar I am sorry and hope you seek support.

 

[BoardingDoc]

So when's the lawsuit happening?

 

[instantkarma]

There's a number of public documents (there and at other places) related to this case, some of which are 30+ pages long, but I can't find a final verdict. While the case appears to have been filed in September 2013, there's motions still being filed as late as May 2018 about extensions. Nuts that it can go on for *five years*.

What I can get is that he was fired. He alleges it was due to

A) Telling the ACGME about duty hours violations
B) Asking for leave after an operation on his retina
C) Asking for leave due to national guard requirements

The defendants (who seem to be everyone from Loyola to the hospital to the ACGME to a coresident) deny that is why he was fired, alleging instead

A) Unprofessionalism (including missing work at some point, but not in the above context)
B) Poor skills
C) Poor ITE scores
D) Aggressive behavior towards women (that in at least one motion the judge mentions was independently corroborated)

He of course states the defendants are lying.

some search results show the following; "Mark D. McDaniel, MD is a practicing Orthopedic Surgeon in Maywood, IL. He completed a residency at Loyola University Medical Center." Dr. Mark McDaniel, Orthopedic Surgery - Maywood , IL |

so it seems the program that alleged;

A) Unprofessionalism (including missing work at some point, but not in the above context)
B) Poor skills
C) Poor ITE scores
D) Aggressive behavior towards women (that in at least one motion the judge mentions was independently corroborated)

took him back to complete the program.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

took him back to complete the program.

Not so fast. The website you're quoting is one of these "health aggregators". They just scour the web to build a profile, they are often wrong and incomplete.

The ABOS has nobody with that name as a board certified orthopod.

His LinkedIn account suggests that he only completed 4 years, and has been working in the Air National Guard as a physician since (but unlikely as a surgeon) -- https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-mcdaniel-m-d-89a3691b/

 

[instantkarma]

you made valid points.




There are several reasons why an orthopaedic surgeon may not show up in the search results.

1. The orthopaedic surgeon was recently certified and the online records have not yet been updated.
2. The orthopaedic surgeon is not certified.
3. The orthopaedic surgeon was previously certified but did not recertify.
4. The orthopaedic surgeon is retired.
5. The orthopaedic surgeon’s certification was revoked by ABOS.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

you made valid points.




There are several reasons why an orthopaedic surgeon may not show up in the search results.

1. The orthopaedic surgeon was recently certified and the online records have not yet been updated.
2. The orthopaedic surgeon is not certified.
3. The orthopaedic surgeon was previously certified but did not recertify.
4. The orthopaedic surgeon is retired.
5. The orthopaedic surgeon’s certification was revoked by ABOS.

All true, but unless I'm much mistaken it takes 5 years of residency to be board eligible in ortho.

 

[instantkarma]

I personally knew an ortho resident that got canned but he was in 2nd or 3rd year. He used to pay fellow residents to do his on calls so he could moonlight at clinics for significantly higher remuneration than the residency gave him. The program gave him warnings but he liked the money too much. Guy was very competent and also had an MBA.

 

[chocomorsel]

It's almost like anyone who's been in medicine for more than 60 Seconds knows that you don't get put on probation for no reason.

Some of those reasons are race, sex, and personality related.
Not necessarily because one is a bad doctor or ditching work, or irresponsible.

 

[chocomorsel]

My account is still too young to post a link but google “UMN resident firing” and this case is not horribly dissimilar from mine.

UNM?

 

[chocomorsel]

Apologies.

Should be UNM for university of New Mexico.

Way too familiar with that. I was there.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Some of those reasons are race, sex, and personality related.
Not necessarily because one is a bad doctor or ditching work, or irresponsible.

Naturally, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that the vast majority are either the latter 3 or the personality of the resident.

My program fired 3 people in the 3 years I was there. All 3 richly deserved it.

 

[chocomorsel]

Naturally, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that the vast majority are either the latter 3 or the personality of the resident.

My program fired 3 people in the 3 years I was there. All 3 richly deserved it.

And what is it about personalities that people deserve to get fired for? Besides the obvious belligerent ones.
I work with plenty dinguses and have in the past who will never be fired cuz they are “surgeons”.
Some people are weird, yes. But so what? Seen that happen too. People aren’t always gonna get along. The drastic imbalance of power in residency leads to a lot of abuse of the people in power.

 

[Crayola227]

I think we forgot to mention the people who are cut for health reasons

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

And what is it about personalities that people deserve to get fired for? Besides the obvious belligerent ones.
I work with plenty dinguses and have in the past who will never be fired cuz they are “surgeons”.
Some people are weird, yes. But so what? Seen that happen too. People aren’t always gonna get along. The drastic imbalance of power in residency leads to a lot of abuse of the people in power.

Obvious belligerent is the main one I was going after. One of the guys that got fired from my program was dating a nurse, when she broke up with him he ran into her at work about a week later and yelled across the nurses station that she was a ***** and he hoped she got herpes. A week later he yelled at a peds attending who asked him why he was 20 minutes late to rounds (and his answer wasn't "I have 15 patients and just got behind").

Not sure where you're getting that I think being weird is enough to get you fired.

Of course there is a power differential. There always is in any kind of learning environment. But I find it very hard to believe that major abuses are all that common.

Look at this forum. Every time someone comes in with a story about being unfairly targeted, a little digging almost always reveals more to it than that.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen (because we do see the occasional story where that seems to be the case). But I think the number people fired for bad reasons is going to be pretty small.

 

[instantkarma]

And there's also the "non renewal" issue. For sure there are bad apples either competency issues, character issues or both. Personality clashes and politics can also come into play.

 

[instantkarma]

Here's a Eugene Gu question; Assuming Vanderbilt was correct and well founded in the non renewal Gu calls getting fired, what about his medical license? I assume he has a state license that gives him the right to practice albeit without any board eligibility or admitting rights ability. On his own he could do GP like stuff. Anyone know if his license is affected?