I know this is an extremely odd post for you guys out there, but I'm a mediocre applicant who wants to avoid applying to prestigious programs- I don't want to waste my eras $ on programs that will likely reject me. Is there a list of top programs so I can avoid them? I'm sure this will help everyone else on this site bc they will know which top ones to apply to from such a list. I tried searching, I can't find the list so far.
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Seriously this is something you can research on your own.
There are multiple threads about top programs. The obvious ones are Stanford, MGH, BWH, Johns Hopkins and so on.
Then there are less prestigious but still very good programs.
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thx for your reply, I appreciate it. I have a good idea of the upper upper but sometimes am unsure of the upper mid and mid mid, as I'm trying to stay mid mid
I'm not buying it, this is a thinly veiled ruse to elicit a top 10 just like the other thread a day or two ago. Wants to avoid applying to the top programs to save money??! Nice. Certainly more creative than usual.
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- #6
FFS?
I know, if I read my post, I wouldn't believe me either, esp given how easy it is to misrepresent youreself in an anonymous forum like sdn. I'm not a troll, or whatever the heck those people are that make non-sensical posts.
Unfortunately, I'm being honest, I'm on a budget and I'd prefer mid mid to mid upper, and it's hard for me to keep track of all 149 programs, if anyone has honest insight or a link to point to it would help.
I know, if I read my post, I wouldn't believe me either, esp given how easy it is to misrepresent youreself in an anonymous forum like sdn. I'm not a troll, or whatever the heck those people are that make non-sensical posts.
Unfortunately, I'm being honest, I'm on a budget and I'd prefer mid mid to mid upper, and it's hard for me to keep track of all 149 programs, if anyone has honest insight or a link to point to it would help.
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I have been advising MSTP applicants going into pathology for several years now. Almost all of them want to move laterally or upward but do not want to move downward. Here are the programs I list for them and then I let them choose where they want to apply to based on geographical preferences:
East coast (from North to South):
MGH
BWH
Penn
JHU
UVA
Duke
Midwest:
WashU
Michigan
UChicago
South (don't know much about southern programs so I tell them to do their homework):
Any Texas program which has strong ties to MD Anderson.
West Coast:
UCSF
Stanford
Although I risk offending people who are not affiliated with one of these institutions, I am not going to list more programs than the above based on the OP's specific question and reasoning.
Based on who I am advising, I will add other solid programs to the list if they have specific geographical preferences. I advise people to not apply to 20+ programs as they might have done when they applied to medical school. Hence, my lists are not lengthy.
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I completely understand your hesitance towards posting below what you consider top. I think there are a few university of chicago programs like northshore--would you consider northshore top as well?
It's not hesitance really. I only listed what I know to be "top" based only on my knowledge which I will say is not 100% complete by any means...and I only intended that. I'm not going to start stratifying into upper, upper-mid, mid-upper, lower-mid, lower-upper, etc. I will admit though that the programs I did not list, I never considered when I was applying to residencies.
Northshore? Never heard of it.
Northshore is a community hospital that assumed the name of UC when Northwestern dropped them.
I would not go there...
Med. College of Wisc has Suster as it's Chairman and he writes Modern Surgical Path, which is probably the best of the supertexts
I would not go there...
Med. College of Wisc has Suster as it's Chairman and he writes Modern Surgical Path, which is probably the best of the supertexts
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- #14
Thx for your input, and understanding that this is a really strange request--I want to avoid stellar programs, but want to be apprised of 'you should avoid programs bc they suck' like mentioned above. Thank you.
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I was curious about mayo, I wasn't sure if the brandname translated to a top tier path program, thx for replying.
So for any students reading this post, please be aware of the following when considering programs.
1) The Brand Name programs are not necessarily the best programs
-look at who is on staff/faculty...big name people carry more weight than the program itself
-a lot of the Brand Name programs are machines, you get taught an awful lot, but you also work(i.e. gross) an awful lot; which does not necessarily commute to a better education. In path, you need to be reading...and signing out
2) Go where you feel comfortable and happy...places like Mayo, which is in Rochester, where there is absolutely nothing else, doesn't do a lot for your well being
3) Consider the great programs just below the brand name, as they are truly the gems
-Med.Univ.South.Carolina
-Med.Coll.Wisc
-Arizona
-Utah
-UCSD
-UTSW(although their top hemepath guy is at MCW now)
-Tulane
-UVA
-UNC
1) The Brand Name programs are not necessarily the best programs
-look at who is on staff/faculty...big name people carry more weight than the program itself
-a lot of the Brand Name programs are machines, you get taught an awful lot, but you also work(i.e. gross) an awful lot; which does not necessarily commute to a better education. In path, you need to be reading...and signing out
2) Go where you feel comfortable and happy...places like Mayo, which is in Rochester, where there is absolutely nothing else, doesn't do a lot for your well being
3) Consider the great programs just below the brand name, as they are truly the gems
-Med.Univ.South.Carolina
-Med.Coll.Wisc
-Arizona
-Utah
-UCSD
-UTSW(although their top hemepath guy is at MCW now)
-Tulane
-UVA
-UNC
You're not biased, sheesh
I got nothing but love for MCW. That's my Alma mater. You may want to ease up a bit though because you come off sounding like fishing for justification for your choice in program. Suster's the bomb. So is Komorowski and Kroft. But there are lots of equally famous attendings everywhere.You're not biased, sheesh
All I ever heard about Suster was that he's a turd and it sucks to work anywhere near him as a resident. I don't care how well known he is, that's not what I'm going in it for. Then again, this is hearsay, so it may well be off mark.
Maybe US News should come out with "official" pathology program rankings.
For the most part, the top programs are all basically equivalent. They have minor differences which may be more important to specific candidates, like if you are a researcher or you like GI path. But most have a number of high profile faculty and will be "elite" enough to provide good cover for your CV. But bear in mind that anyone who has any experience in the world knows people who came from great programs who can't diagnose an adenoma, and people from small programs who are stellar. The worst possible candidates for jobs are those who think that they are special because they went to a certain residency program (or even more laughably, a certain med school).
I mostly agree with immaculate turd's list of programs, although I would not include duke (unless you are a southerner who wants to stay in the south). But like I said, any of those programs could be disastrous choices for individual applicants.
For the most part, the top programs are all basically equivalent. They have minor differences which may be more important to specific candidates, like if you are a researcher or you like GI path. But most have a number of high profile faculty and will be "elite" enough to provide good cover for your CV. But bear in mind that anyone who has any experience in the world knows people who came from great programs who can't diagnose an adenoma, and people from small programs who are stellar. The worst possible candidates for jobs are those who think that they are special because they went to a certain residency program (or even more laughably, a certain med school).
I mostly agree with immaculate turd's list of programs, although I would not include duke (unless you are a southerner who wants to stay in the south). But like I said, any of those programs could be disastrous choices for individual applicants.
I really find it comical the anti-Mayo enthusiasm here. For those of you out there, really, you need to interview here or talk to the residents personally to form your own opinion.
Why do I say this?
For example: Today, which was actually a slow day for me (I'm a second year resident), I sat at the scope and read out 44 patient specimens ranging predominantly from breast to skin to GU to gyn to miscilaneous tidbits that you can stick a needle in. Most are 1 to 2 trays of biopsy specimens. Then I go down stairs and gross until 7 (on a good day) or 9 to 10 (on a sucky day) on specimens that are sent in from surrounding hospitals. Mind you, today was a light day.
On our "sink" rotations, which would be the equivalent of anyone elses surgical pathology. You have 30 minutes to get your specimen grossed with a call back to the surgeon with a diagnosis. This includes, hysterectomies, mastectomies, lumpectomies, large melanoma specimens, ect. Colon, thank God, you just have the mass measured and you can dig for lymph nodes on your "down time." It isn't unusual to have 3-4 specimens all on your bench during the busy time, which hits between 10 to 2... and yes you better keep your specimens separate or you will have hell to pay. It isn't unusual for you to have a breast, colon, large skin ellipse, and uterus (if at saint mary's a pancreas or liver resection) sitting on your bench at one time at least once during the rush hour. So if you do the math, you typically gross 15-30 large specimens in a day. I'm not including the staging lymph nodes and biopsies that go with each specimen or separately.
I am sorry, but the specimen load that you see here certainly is something to contend with for whatever residency program you are in. Any resident here will agree.
Mayo should be on your list to consider if you want to be trained in one of the best programs that the US as to offer. Anyone else who wants to argue, should spend a month as a resident in Rochester MN.
Why do I say this?
For example: Today, which was actually a slow day for me (I'm a second year resident), I sat at the scope and read out 44 patient specimens ranging predominantly from breast to skin to GU to gyn to miscilaneous tidbits that you can stick a needle in. Most are 1 to 2 trays of biopsy specimens. Then I go down stairs and gross until 7 (on a good day) or 9 to 10 (on a sucky day) on specimens that are sent in from surrounding hospitals. Mind you, today was a light day.
On our "sink" rotations, which would be the equivalent of anyone elses surgical pathology. You have 30 minutes to get your specimen grossed with a call back to the surgeon with a diagnosis. This includes, hysterectomies, mastectomies, lumpectomies, large melanoma specimens, ect. Colon, thank God, you just have the mass measured and you can dig for lymph nodes on your "down time." It isn't unusual to have 3-4 specimens all on your bench during the busy time, which hits between 10 to 2... and yes you better keep your specimens separate or you will have hell to pay. It isn't unusual for you to have a breast, colon, large skin ellipse, and uterus (if at saint mary's a pancreas or liver resection) sitting on your bench at one time at least once during the rush hour. So if you do the math, you typically gross 15-30 large specimens in a day. I'm not including the staging lymph nodes and biopsies that go with each specimen or separately.
I am sorry, but the specimen load that you see here certainly is something to contend with for whatever residency program you are in. Any resident here will agree.
Mayo should be on your list to consider if you want to be trained in one of the best programs that the US as to offer. Anyone else who wants to argue, should spend a month as a resident in Rochester MN.
Fair enough
I agree with your statement too that these programs can be disastrous for the wrong applicants. Raspberry, I don't see anyone here being outright "anti-Mayo". I sure am not "anti-Mayo." OK, so I didn't include it on my list. Sorry, my bad.
Yeah, actually, there has been no anti Mayo posting on this thread at all. There was one post which said there was nothing else besides Mayo in Rochester, but that's it. Mayo is a great program. But it is different, and you have to understand that if you consider it. That's all. That isn't a bad thing.
Seriously, the "why the anti-mayo enthusiasm?" poster makes a pretty good anti-mayo case. Is frantic, high pressure grossing a good thing?
Just saying, no offense, etc.
Just saying, no offense, etc.
what is comical is how touchy people get defending their programs. i agree mayo is probably pretty solid. obvious downsides = location, quirkiness.
the top program is the biggest named program you can get into that is in the city you most want to live in.
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