LMU-DCOM fires Dean over support for social change, thoughts?

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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Rogue42

Rogue42

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"This summer, many medical schools and institutions all over the nation came together in our white coats to kneel on behalf of BLM and our friends and colleagues of color. I am currently a student at LMU DCOM, and just like every other school, some of our students who were in town put together a peaceful kneel.

Our Asso. Dean of students, Dr. Jonathan Leo, happily approved the idea. He has always been an advocate for diversity and acceptance in our school. He's been an advocate for all of the students here in some way.

On August 17th, Dr. Leo was fired by LMU-DCOM for his approval of this movement. All of us are saddened and incredibly distraught by this - and we want to see a change.

On August 14th, the President of LMU emailed new student policy that states “You are not allowed to be involved in any form of public statement about social justice and racial inequities in medicine in any prominent location on the LMU campus”."

*I am no way affiliated with this school, simply sharing the information*
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Rogue42 said:
"This summer, many medical schools and institutions all over the nation came together in our white coats to kneel on behalf of BLM and our friends and colleagues of color. I am currently a student at LMU DCOM, and just like every other school, some of our students who were in town put together a peaceful kneel.

Our Asso. Dean of students, Dr. Jonathan Leo, happily approved the idea. He has always been an advocate for diversity and acceptance in our school. He's been an advocate for all of the students here in some way.

On August 17th, Dr. Leo was fired by LMU-DCOM for his approval of this movement. All of us are saddened and incredibly distraught by this - and we want to see a change.

On August 14th, the President of LMU emailed new student policy that states “You are not allowed to be involved in any form of public statement about social justice and racial inequities in medicine in any prominent location on the LMU campus”."

*I am no way affiliated with this school, simply sharing the information*
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OK, yet one more reason to not recommend LMU. Even forgetting about racial justice, the refusal to publicly support social justice, a subject that has profound medical ramifications, screams volumes about the mindset of the administration of the school's parent body.

It would be interesting to see if all LMU students went out and made a display of support for these subjects, on their campus.
 
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Dang it’s been a wild ride these past few years but I think we can finally agree on the victor. Congrats to LMU for officially claiming the title of worst osteopathic school ever.

Would have bet dollars to donuts that LUCOM would’ve beat them.
 
I’m not sure where you got your info from. But the school never stated that in their email to us. Nor do we know that was the reason for his termination (if he was terminated).

Our dean said “ There is no policy that prohibits students or organizations from peacefully demonstrating on campus. There is no policy prohibiting students from making any form of public statement of social justice or racial inequities on the campus.” specifically. And the president echoed similarly in his email.
 
premedmommyx2 said:
I’m not sure where you got your info from. But the school never stated that in their email to us. Nor do we know that was the reason for his termination (if he was terminated).

Our dean said “ There is no policy that prohibits students or organizations from peacefully demonstrating on campus. There is no policy prohibiting students from making any form of public statement of social justice or racial inequities on the campus.” specifically. And the president echoed similarly in his email.
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Your other classmates must feel differently.
 
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premedmommyx2 said:
I’m not sure where you got your info from. But the school never stated that in their email to us. Nor do we know that was the reason for his termination (if he was terminated).

Our dean said “ There is no policy that prohibits students or organizations from peacefully demonstrating on campus. There is no policy prohibiting students from making any form of public statement of social justice or racial inequities on the campus.” specifically. And the president echoed similarly in his email.
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For what it's worth, his name is still in the school'd directory. Normally, when people get fired, IT wipes them from the face of the Earth

Graduate Admissions

www.lmunet.edu www.lmunet.edu
 
Goro said:
For what it's worth, his name is still in the school'd directory. Normally, when people get fired, IT wipes them from the face of the Earth

Graduate Admissions

www.lmunet.edu www.lmunet.edu
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My school had fired people in the past and their names were still in the directory a few months later.
 
I can still find his name but just got word he’s gone. But we got no other info so still making assumptions on if it’s related.

I’ve read the petition and it’s in regards to Leo’s initial email not him being terminated.

I literally copied that statement from the email.. so it doesn’t matter what they feel- that was what was stated which is all I said. The part about the president saying there was a policy is false- his email didn’t say that- Leo’s did
 
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I simply do not understand how an institution training students to become medical professionals can ignore social justice in healthcare, let alone punish those who choose to bring attention to it. Shameful.
 
MDGunner said:
Need to dig deeper. He didn't get fired just for approving the idea.
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I disagree. My alma mater would’ve done this. I remember when med students were lying on the ground with their white coats on in a social protest a couple years ago. We had an unannounced deans hour and were basically told if we did that with the schools white coats and logo on then we would be dismissed from school.
 
DO2015CA said:
I disagree. My alma mater would’ve done this. I remember when med students were lying on the ground with their white coats on in a social protest a couple years ago. We had an unannounced deans hour and were basically told if we did that with the schools white coats and logo on then we would be dismissed from school.
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What school? I feel like this sort of thing is more likely to happen at a DO or for profit school given the greed and immoral aspirations of the people running them. I’m not surprised.
 
They mean the "Dean of Students" Dr. Leo was not the dean. The dean is horrible. This just reinforces my experience with LMU-DCOM. The dean is not an ethical man, and they care about money above all else.
 
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NontradCA said:
What school? I feel like this sort of thing is more likely to happen at a DO or for profit school given the greed and immoral aspirations of the people running them. I’m not surprised.
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ACOM but honestly I dont think that would be the case anymore. Both the dean and clinical dean have since left the school. I really like the new dean and he’s a stand up guy
 
After looking the petition over, keep in mind that it was LMU's president who had an issue with it, so I imagine it was DCOM's parent institution that decided to fire Dr. Leo. I doubt DCOM had a chance to deny it (but who knows) which is unfortunate.
 
It seems like DCOM has gone so far downhill since I left. It’s unfortunate. It definitely had its problems when I was a student, but nothing like this. Sounds like the deep red of the town and the board is finally seeping in to the school.
 
caterwaiter said:
I simply do not understand how an institution training students to become medical professionals can ignore social justice in healthcare, let alone punish those who choose to bring attention to it. Shameful.
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It’s not actually DCOM who made this “rule” it’s Lincoln memorial university and their board who were against the protest. DCOM faculty , the students are against the firing of Dr.Leo and are appalled by this rule and do not support it at all
 
If it's true that DCOM is banning students from taking part in peaceful social justice demonstrations, similar to demonstrations which have been conducted with the highest levels of institutional support at most medical schools in the US, and if the student body makes enough noise about it, the national media will pick up the story, and the people responsible for this will probably lose their jobs.

Apart from just being an appalling position to take, the people responsible for firing this Dean of students are clearly incompetent for being unable to look around, read the room, and keep quiet, and probably shouldn't be running a university.
 
drcardi said:
It’s not actually DCOM who made this “rule” it’s Lincoln memorial university and their board who were against the protest. DCOM faculty , the students are against the firing of Dr.Leo and are appalled by this rule and do not support it at all
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I'm a hardass on this. The sins of the parent weigh down on the child. This is why I can't recommend Penn State or LUCOM to people and ask others to research Larry Nassar when thinking about MSUCOM.

Mind you, this is all simply one more data point as to why I can't recommend LMU.
 
Goro said:
I'm a hardass on this. The sins of the parent weigh down on the child. This is why I can't recommend Penn State or LUCOM to people and ask others to research Larry Nassar when thinking about MSUCOM.

Mind you, this is all simply one more data point as to why I can't recommend LMU.
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I remember when I was there, DCOM was basically a whole separate world from LMU’s undergrad and such. However, I totally agree with you. Unless DCOM fully separates itself from LMU, they're one in the same. Their values can’t be different.
 
NurWollen said:
if the student body makes enough noise about it, the national media will pick up the story, and the people responsible for this will probably lose their jobs.
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Honestly, this is what I ultimately hoped would happen. I’m afraid it’s just going to get swept under the rug.
 
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premedmommyx2 said:
Media already got wind.. has been contacting students for interviews about an upcoming march on campus.
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Good but honestly they’re dumb for asking students who have so much to lose. They should be asking alumni who would be willing to speak out. We saw how the admin treated one of their own. Now think about what will happen if a student spoke out. They won’t dismiss them for that specifically but it won’t be long until they find a “legitimate” reason. It’s sad that these schools are able to run like this. Just know after you graduate you are free to speak out and should
 
TRPMinus said:
You recommend people think about MSU when Nassar was ONE guy who is no longer there? What about the MD school there? Unless there is more I don’t know about this seems a bit “extra”.
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One has to consider what MSUCOM did. The MD school played no part.

Are you even aware of what Larry Nassar did??
 
TRPMinus said:
You recommend people think about MSU when Nassar was ONE guy who is no longer there? What about the MD school there? Unless there is more I don’t know about this seems a bit “extra”.
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Because it's nonsense. Goro helps the forum a lot, but realize it's an opinion of one person. Looking into this you can see it didn't come from the medical school and came from a private focused board of directors of the overarching university and actually had med school support, but that's not nearly as interesting.
 
Here is the most comprehensive story on Nassar (How MSU doc became suspect in dozens of rapes). This does certainly indicate that the medical school was involved in helping to cover this up.

'“I am happy this has resolved,” William Strampel, dean of the College of Osteopathic Medicine, wrote in an email to Nassar in 2014, “and I am happy to have you back in full practice.”'

Then the flood gates opened and the school suspended him from teaching at the medical school, and then shortly afterwards fired him.
 
While I value free speech on college campuses, I can also understand why a university called Lincoln Memorial University, with a Lincoln statue and Lincoln museum and library, would be concerned about divisive, outrage-inducing racial protests happening on its campus. Like most white American historical figures, Honest Abe isn’t getting good press nowadays. LMU, a small university with a relatively modest endowment, would struggle to handle vandalism and defacement of its property, on top of all the inconveniences that have already been created by the coronavirus situation.
 
Yep, some current students are afraid of retribution if they speak out publicly, and that isn’t really that wild of a fear at this school.
Osminog said:
While I value free speech on college campuses, I can also understand why a university called Lincoln Memorial University, with a Lincoln statue and Lincoln museum and library, would be concerned about divisive, outrage-inducing racial protests happening on its campus. Like most white American historical figures, Honest Abe isn’t getting good press nowadays. LMU, a small university with a relatively modest endowment, would struggle to handle vandalism and defacement of its property, on top of all the inconveniences that have already been created by the coronavirus situation.
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“Divisive, outrage-inducing racial protests” had not occurred - and are much, much more likely now after the board of trustees made such a statement opposed to peaceful protest, and after the university apparently fired a beloved long-time employee and dean of students for standing against that statement.

Their position, that you’re arguing for, is a cover-up.
 
Rekt said:
Looking into this you can see it didn't come from the medical school and came from a private focused board of directors of the overarching university and actually had med school support, but that's not nearly as interesting.
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But that overarching university has control of the medical school clearly denoted by the firing of two faculty members who stood behind the protest. It doesn’t matter how much the med school supports social justice if the parent institution fights it.

scoopdaboop said:
Good. Small DO schools like this should be canceled.
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With their class size, I wouldn’t call it small.
 
DrMaximus said:
But that overarching university has control of the medical school clearly denoted by the firing of two faculty members who stood behind the protest. It doesn’t matter how much the med school supports social justice if the parent institution fights it.



With their class size, I wouldn’t call it small.
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TWO faculty members??? Can you enlighten us?
 
DrMaximus said:
But that overarching university has control of the medical school clearly denoted by the firing of two faculty members who stood behind the protest. It doesn’t matter how much the med school supports social justice if the parent institution fights it.



With their class size, I wouldn’t call it small.
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I believe Rekt's post is about MSUCOM not DCOM, fyi.
 
Warder said:
Here is the most comprehensive story on Nassar (How MSU doc became suspect in dozens of rapes). This does certainly indicate that the medical school was involved in helping to cover this up.

'“I am happy this has resolved,” William Strampel, dean of the College of Osteopathic Medicine, wrote in an email to Nassar in 2014, “and I am happy to have you back in full practice.”'

Then the flood gates opened and the school suspended him from teaching at the medical school, and then shortly afterwards fired him.
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One of the sports medicine professors at my school was in a conference call once with Nassar when he had to immediately leave due to, shall we say, active investigation proceedings. This professor had once looked up to Nassar.

After everything came to light, he immediately buried Nassar. The world should have done the same.

MSU did not do the same.

I'm pretty sure I quoted the wrong person. Das okay.
 
Isoval said:
One of the sports medicine professors at my school was in a conference call once with Nassar when he had to immediately leave due to, shall we say, active investigation proceedings. This professor had once looked up to Nassar.

After everything came to light, he immediately buried Nassar. The world should have done the same.

MSU did not do the same.

I'm pretty sure I quoted the wrong person. Das okay.
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I don't know if I've ever seen an AOA statement truly burying Nassar either.... but maybe I've just missed it? 🤔 I always found it odd these organizations didn't instantly distance themselves and bring the hammer down.

Edit: this is all I've ever seen. I find it pretty lacking... AOA President Mark A. Baker, DO, responds to Larry Nassar case - The DO
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I don't know if I've ever seen an AOA statement truly burying Nassar either.... but maybe I've just missed it? 🤔 I always found it odd these organizations didn't instantly distance themselves and bring the hammer down.

Edit: this is all I've ever seen. I find it pretty lacking... AOA President Mark A. Baker, DO, responds to Larry Nassar case - The DO
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Gawd, Grey, that editorial wasn't just bad, it was egregiously bad. I'm surprised the server didn't melt.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I don't know if I've ever seen an AOA statement truly burying Nassar either.... but maybe I've just missed it? 🤔 I always found it odd these organizations didn't instantly distance themselves and bring the hammer down.

Edit: this is all I've ever seen. I find it pretty lacking... AOA President Mark A. Baker, DO, responds to Larry Nassar case - The DO
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"Say what you will about the pedophiles and rapists in our profession - we knew they were there didn't intervene - but don't you dare slightly mischaracterize OMM. That's beyond the pale!"
 
I go to DCOM (did fine, passed classes, passed boards, so no grudge holding or anger posting here).

it has been racist for years. Find a couple black students across 2 different years and they will tell you. This while surprising was not a shock to anyone. Ask about the OMM department, ask about EPC and spe grading, ask about the comments from faculty. Its what you see on the news, its awful and horrific and unfortunately everything you think of re: small rural america. (for the DCOM-knox students - how many black people yall got? word on the street is none).

Dean of Students was fired (school has not announced it yet) - he confirmed it himself to several students, if you call the school and ask for him they tell you he is no longer employed with the university. end that part there (eyeroll to those who truly overestimate DCOM IT department, and co-sign the comment of when DCOM fired professors who were listed on the website for months).

the president of the university tried to back track and cover it up. he made it worse. we have not heard from him since.

Dean of the medical school said "no policy" like we all didnt get the first email.

the Chair of the board is a trump supporter and contributes millions to his campaign. Check out the Tennessee holler - its there.

to the DCOM-knox students, ive been reading this and other school related threads. your. time. is. coming. honestly it will probably be clinical rotations - ask around see if they have a plan for ya'lll. ask the now 3rd years what their experience was like. Its cute that you have faculty now and you have disputed the 'skeleton crew' comment but truthfully, the numbers are there. Parts of the education are adequate, significant parts are not. You wont realize how much you dont know till.... board study.. again talk the the 3rd and 4th years. Maybe you guys will do better. lets hope so. scores for Level 1 and Level 2 PE and CE are trash and trending downwards. the best thing to ever happen to DCOM was PE being pushed back so they can scramble and try to figure out what the hell to do.

to the alumni, it has gone downhill, significantly. I also think a third party needs to come in and take it over if not honestly, shut it down completely. The person calling all the shots has no clue about medical education and its obvious.

School has several (yes several) lawsuits out against it. Most of it you can find online, some of it you cant. most recent one filed in July of THIS YEAR. It not like they are suits of the past, no they are recent. most of them actually have merit and are do to the sheer incompetence from the top down.

There were over 10+ people in last years class that didnt match. Over half matched primary care IM/FM. If you are prospective student - do. not. come. here. Wait, study again, take your MCAT again - this is not worth it.
 
MedScribe2 said:
to the alumni, it has gone downhill, significantly. I also think a third party needs to come in and take it over if not honestly, shut it down completely. The person calling all the shots has no clue about medical education and its obvious.

School has several (yes several) lawsuits out against it. Most of it you can find online, some of it you cant. most recent one filed in July of THIS YEAR. It not like they are suits of the past, no they are recent. most of them actually have merit and are do to the sheer incompetence from the top down.

There were over 10+ people in last years class that didnt match. Over half matched primary care IM/FM. If you are prospective student - do. not. come. here. Wait, study again, take your MCAT again - this is not worth it.
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That's terrible. Honestly, with all the faculty and staff that have left since I've been gone, I assumed as much. I feel for the good ones that are still there. After Stowers left, I felt the slide begin, but I hope it wouldn't be this bad.
 
I mean, blast this in the premed forums and their class threads because they read it. Until you hold people accountable, nothing will happen. This is something that has happened with all DO schools. It's important you speak out, despite what the administration says. I have been a trailblazer through my entire career and I have watched as my past schools, jobs change tremendously. I was subject to racism at my school, called it like it was and two years after I left the Republican Dean turned Democrat...just to keep his job. The world is changing, don't let anyone fool you.

Bottom line, don't just say "don't go to that school." Demand change.
 
NontradCA said:
I mean, blast this in the premed forums and their class threads because they read it. Until you hold people accountable, nothing will happen. This is something that has happened with all DO schools. It's important you speak out, despite what the administration says. I have been a trailblazer through my entire career and I have watched as my past schools, jobs change tremendously. I was subject to racism at my school, called it like it was and two years after I left the Republican Dean turned Democrat...just to keep his job. The world is changing, don't let anyone fool you.

Bottom line, don't just say "don't go to that school." Demand change.
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How would you suggest holding people accountable and demanding change? Applicants and future applicants would still rather go to DCOM than not go to medical school, and even with the parent university's racism and corruption leaching into the program it's a better option than going Caribbean. Current students won't speak out too much for fear of getting axed or persecuted for the rest of their time. With this fiasco, student opinion has run the gamut - some of them are actively discouraging classmates from protesting or interviewing with the media because they're afraid it will impact accreditation or reputation when match season comes around.

Alumni and faculty are probably the best bet for demanding change. There's supposedly a protest at the main campus this weekend, and I've been told the students have been trying to get alumni to speak out or join them in some capacity, with little positive response. If it happens, the university will get their PR to take photos of the students marching, and spin it to paint themselves in a positive light of advocating for student protest against racial injustice, and that's probably where the story will end.

As far as "this is something that has happened with all DO schools" - I don't think that's really a fair statement. There are a lot of DO schools out there, and some are quite reputable. That being said, it would probably be safe to say that the waters of higher education in general are full of **** - medical and professional education isn't exempt, and MD schools have plenty of dirty laundry in their closets. But - every university does.
 
NontradCA said:
I mean, blast this in the premed forums and their class threads because they read it. Until you hold people accountable, nothing will happen. This is something that has happened with all DO schools. It's important you speak out, despite what the administration says. I have been a trailblazer through my entire career and I have watched as my past schools, jobs change tremendously. I was subject to racism at my school, called it like it was and two years after I left the Republican Dean turned Democrat...just to keep his job. The world is changing, don't let anyone fool you.

Bottom line, don't just say "don't go to that school." Demand change.
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I’m sure they really don’t give a damn.

Let’s be totally honest: desperate premeds would go there even if they literally flew a nazi flag from the main building.

they’ll have no problem filling seats regardless of what we or anyone else does.
 
Isoval said:
I’m sure they really don’t give a damn.

Let’s be totally honest: desperate premeds would go there even if they literally flew a nazi flag from the main building.

they’ll have no problem filling seats regardless of what we or anyone else does.
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Probably. I’m not saying it’s an easy task, but these are the times we’re living in. Progress is only made through pain. And yes, almost all schools in the entire nation have gone through something similar. They weren’t all shut down right? They didn’t all stay like this did they?

1598635035765.jpeg


This is America.
 
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