Local vet clinic bans 3 breeds... WHAT?!

[Shanomong]

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[alliecat44]

The point that I was making is that 90% of the time "the soccer mom" isnt adopting the pitbull from the local shelter because she wants to look like she means business. I was saying that the people that adopted these dogs FOR THE PURPOSE OF BEING AGGRESSIVE tend to fit that particular profile. I dont really appreciate being told that im close minded and intolerant when you know nothing of my background or the community that i live in. I live in the same town michael vick comes from, HERE you only get a pit if you want that dog to be aggressive there IS no inbetween or other side. Where you come from absolutely effects your attitudes towards animals particularly dog fighting which here is treated as acceptable and the cool thing to do. So yea 99.99% of the time the kid with money from middle class america isnt gonna get into dog fighting or buying dogs for the wrong reason. Are there exceptions, im sure there are, but the majority of the time thats just simply not the case. Im not about to risk someone's safety in the off chance that i don't want to offend someone that is the exception. Its just not worth it. I can say that with confidence about many of the towns around me as well, because i live here and have seen it. These are not stereotypes they are facts. I was saying that the people who have created most of the problems with pits DO fit a profile and it IS part of a sub culture, I live in it everyday and I interact with these people everyday. This is not intolerant but honest.

👍 👍 👍 Totally and completely agree.
As far as social class goes, it's often the stupid wealthy people who get a dog because they think it looks cool and tough and then they allow the dog to run all over them and develop horrible habits. Good dog raising is not class-specific!

And I have known and loved many a pit bull, Rottie, Dane, etc etc. 🙂 I still contend that this veterinary practice probably has seen a high proportion of poorly-trained aggressive dogs and that's what's prompting this--but again, I take it on an individual basis, not a breed basis.

Love that link, btw--one of my favorites! 🙂

 

[luplodw]

👍 👍 👍 Totally and completely agree.
As far as social class goes, it's often the stupid wealthy people who get a dog because they think it looks cool and tough and then they allow the dog to run all over them and develop horrible habits. Good dog raising is not class-specific!

And I have known and loved many a pit bull, Rottie, Dane, etc etc. 🙂 I still contend that this veterinary practice probably has seen a high proportion of poorly-trained aggressive dogs and that's what's prompting this--but again, I take it on an individual basis, not a breed basis.

Love that link, btw--one of my favorites! 🙂

Did you quote the right person? hah

 

[CatVet2Be]

Maybe it's not entirely about the breeds but the fact that they are the ones used for dog fighting and people that engage in dog fights are probably also neck deep in other illegal things like drugs and weapons. If the clinic is located in a part of town that's heavy in those kinds of crimes the vet may be trying to minimize seeing these kinds of clients. Just a different angle to look at it from. And for the record I'd also much rather work with pits and rotties than some of the little land sharks I've had to deal with.

 

[NStarz]

Its very frustrating that people are so scared or deeply offended by stereotyping that you are willing to jeopardize others safety. The cold hard truth is that the stereotypes against pits are there for a reason just like little dogs like min pins are notorious ankle biters. Rottis, german shepherds, dobermans, and Pitts are all used as guard dogs for a reason. That reason is they are more often then not capable of being dangerous weapons. There is a reason labs and goldens are such popular family pets.....because they are less likely to have aggression problems. QUOTE]


Sorry, didn't read the whole thread yet, but had to comment on this. The reason that GSDs, rotties, pit bulls, and dobermans are more likely to be fought is because they will do ANYTHING for their owner. They are the most loyal dogs in the history of mankind's domestication of the wolf. That loyalty has been exploited by man (fighting, etc.), but look at the Michael Vick dogs. Most are in good homes and some are even certified pet therapy dogs. These breeds are NOT "capable of being dangerous weapons" more than any lab or golden. Actually, goldens and labs bite more than pits do, but the media needs a scapegoat and pitties are the current "dangerous dog." Look up the stats.

One breed does not have a tendency to bite over another, as far as I know. Goldens and labs actually bite more because they are usually so-called family dogs with uneducated owners who don't neuter their dogs and then use electronic fencing and shock collars to train them. Labs bite more than pits merely because there are MORE of them around.

Another common misconception, pits do not have "locking jaws" as was stated by someone earlier. They have the same bite as any other dog.

Big dogs vs. small dogs. Big dogs will bite once and then back off--like a wolf or lion in the wild, they realize they are big and are biting to give you a warning (usually there are other warnings if you are in tune enough to see them). Small dogs need to compensate for their small size. Therefore, they will keep biting and biting and biting in order to make the threat leave and get the message.

Note: I was bitten by a rottweiler at the shelter I work at. Does that mean I hate rotties? Hell no. Does that mean I cross the street when a rottie passes by? Hell no. If I ever own a practice, I will see WHATEVER client wants to use my services, regardless of their animal.

What's disturbing to me is that people who are planning to become veterinarians, to advocate for the health of ALL animals are, in some cases, supporting a racist, breedist attitude about medical practice. Veterinarians, as someone stated before, are one of the most respected professionals out there, and THE number one advocate for animals and animal welfare. If the bulk of these opinions represent the majority, I am concerned about the future of veterinary medicine.



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Yes, that was harsh. This is a very poignant issue to me, and it should be addressed as such. If one clinic won't see the so-called "dangerous/vicious breed", then soon another clinic won't see them either. And then another. And then there will be BSL and mass genocide (yes, it is genocide). And that is something I cannot stand by and let happen.

 

[NStarz]

The point that I was making is that 90% of the time "the soccer mom" isnt adopting the pitbull from the local shelter because she wants to look like she means business. I was saying that the people that adopted these dogs FOR THE PURPOSE OF BEING AGGRESSIVE tend to fit that particular profile. I dont really appreciate being told that im close minded and intolerant when you know nothing of my background or the community that i live in. I live in the same town michael vick comes from, HERE you only get a pit if you want that dog to be aggressive there IS no inbetween or other side. Where you come from absolutely effects your attitudes towards animals particularly dog fighting which here is treated as acceptable and the cool thing to do. So yea 99.99% of the time the kid with money from middle class america isnt gonna get into dog fighting or buying dogs for the wrong reason. Are there exceptions, im sure there are, but the majority of the time thats just simply not the case. Im not about to risk someone's safety in the off chance that i don't want to offend someone that is the exception. Its just not worth it. I can say that with confidence about many of the towns around me as well, because i live here and have seen it. These are not stereotypes they are facts. I was saying that the people who have created most of the problems with pits DO fit a profile and it IS part of a sub culture, I live in it everyday and I interact with these people everyday. This is not intolerant but honest.

Actually, most of the people that adopt pits from the shelter I work at are families, some with young children (of course, this is anecdotal)

 

[peachy3214]

Did you quote the right person? hah

I dont think so haha.
But im not saying that all poor people are bad dog owners, I'm saying that there is a particular culture that often fit a certain socioeconomic profile that abuse pits. There are people that have tons of money....like Vick, that do this as well but it stems from the "gangster" lifestyle that many pursue.

 

[PrimalMU]

Maybe it's not entirely about the breeds but the fact that they are the ones used for dog fighting and people that engage in dog fights are probably also neck deep in other illegal things like drugs and weapons. If the clinic is located in a part of town that's heavy in those kinds of crimes the vet may be trying to minimize seeing these kinds of clients. Just a different angle to look at it from. And for the record I'd also much rather work with pits and rotties than some of the little land sharks I've had to deal with.

Actually, the clinic is in one of the more affluent areas around. I can think of half a dozen places that might fit the stereotypical demographics that might explain the phenomenon (i.e. the unincorporated town where there used to be a meth lab bust every week). You make a good point, though, but in this case I don't think it applies (although I wish it did, because that would at least be excusable!).

 

[peachy3214]

I'm not gonna defend my opinions anymore or be told in however many ways that I'm basically a bad person by people that clearly have no exposure to the underground world of dog fighting and what it does to the pit bull image. As I have said I have no problems with pits and know many responsible owners with pits. But I do live in a predominately poor area where most people think that the lifestyle they hear about in rap songs and what they are exposed to in drug rings and other crime rings is what they should strive for. I LIVE HERE, I SEE IT EVERYDAY, im not stereotyping im speaking off what i see. These 8/10 are the people abusing these pits in the dog fighting circles. When I walk my friends pit down the street only "thugs"(oooooo dirty word) are the ones that stop to ask me about the dog, no one else. One actually asked me if i ran him on the treadmill to make his muscles bigger so he looked more intimidating. Thats the world that I live in and thats how the dog fighting world runs and thats who runs in these underground circles. Where I live the by the vet banning pits she is saying that they arent gonna find acceptance for what they are doing to these dogs there.

So all I'm saying is dont break out the pitchforks just because a clinic banned certain breeds when you dont know the back story.

 

[nitheninny]

Actually, goldens and labs bite more than pits do, but the media needs a scapegoat and pitties are the current "dangerous dog." Look up the stats.

One breed does not have a tendency to bite over another, as far as I know. Goldens and labs actually bite more because they are usually so-called family dogs with uneducated owners who don't neuter their dogs and then use electronic fencing and shock collars to train them. Labs bite more than pits merely because there are MORE of them around.

Could you please back these claims up with statistics/sources?

 

[Shanomong]

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[alliecat44]

Did you quote the right person? hah

Whoops!! No, I didn't! I meant to quote bunnity's post!

 

[Shanomong]

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[PrimalMU]

Could you please back these claims up with statistics/sources?

It doesn't back up the lab and golden retriever comment, but here is an interesting study regarding non-fatal dog bites:

Dogs predominantly of German shepherd, chow chow, collie and akita breeds were substantially more frequent among biting than nonbiting dogs. The total numbers of dogs mainly collie (n=9) and akita (n=5) breeds were small compared to the total numbers of German shepherd (n=47) and chow chows (n=40).

http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-study-whichdogsbite.htm

Is anyone else not surprised that chows made the top of the list? Interestingly enough, the study only received very low numbers where pit bulls were involved in a biting incident.

 

[cowgirla]

It doesn't back up the lab and golden retriever comment, but here is an interesting study regarding non-fatal dog bites:



http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-study-whichdogsbite.htm

Is anyone else not surprised that chows made the top of the list? Interestingly enough, the study only received very low numbers where pit bulls were involved in a biting incident.

That study was based out of Denver, a city that bans pitbulls. So not a good one to quote 🙂


One thing to consider, in looking at stats of which dogs bite, is how many "civilians" can actually identify a true APBT.
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
Half the boxer mixes in our clinic get called a "pit" by some unknowing person. The term is thrown around way too loosely, and it doesn't help the stats for pitties. A dog bites some one. If they can't ID the breed, they just call it a pitbull.

 

[peachy3214]

But to be fair, we live here too. Bunnitty and I live in West Philadelphia... and she works in a shelter that is >90% pits from the area. And our experiences have been different than yours.

I'm not talking about a neighborhood of a city. Im speaking about an entire region. Lots of shelters have lots of pits but that doesnt mean you live in an area where dog fighting and the culture that surrounds it is a problem. Not all "inner city" areas have problems with dog fighting rings and what not. So that wasnt an assumption that I was gonna make just because you say your from west philly. I live in the Virginia Beach, Norfolk, hampton roads area where this a huge cultural problem encompassing a huge area and alot of people.

 

[bunnity]

OK I'm going to tell a story in response to the intolerance thing, because I've been there.

I work in a shelter. In Philadelphia. Where Michael Vick plays. Where we get 5000+ complaints of dog fighting a year. In the neighborhood that's always on the news for gunfights. One of the worst places, in terms of crime, on the east coast. The first couple times I drove to work, I thought I was going to die. If you're going to stereotype any area for being poor, gangster, low class, this would be the place to stereotype.

I'm an adoption counselor. I get to decide if people get to take dogs home. I am incredibly, fiercely protective of these dogs. I see them come in every day, mangled from dog fights, emaciated, naked from mange, just horrible stuff that no one should ever see. So naturally, I want to protect them from that. And naturally, I feel responsible for who they go home with.

It's a lot of responsibility, and the consequences for screwing up can be horrible for the dog. Because of this, I want to be able to control things. I want to be able to control the future for these dogs. I want to be able to tell, from interacting with a person, how they will treat the dog.

I can't.

I have done adoptions that I felt terrible about that turned out great. I've done adoptions I felt great about turn out terrible. It was really hard for me to accept this - that I couldn't protect our dogs. I tried really hard at first. I looked at everyone that came in - do they look like a dog fighter? Would they make the dog live outside guarding an auto shop? Would they abandon it? Fight it? Beat it? I thought I was doing a pretty good job. I was tough on the people I thought were thugs - stopped a lot of adoptions. I admit that some of my thoughts were based on how people looked and how they talked, how they dressed, whether they seemed educated, whether they fit MY ideas of what a good dog owner would look like.

One day my co-workers and I were looking through some pictures on the computer. They were cruelty evidence pictures. There were a ton of pictures of this one house that had run a dog fighting ring. All kinds of equipment, torture devices, illegal meds, the works. The officers had taken a picture of a photo of the family as part of the evidence. Nice little upper class suburban family smiling away at the camera. Would have adopted to those people in a heartbeat until I saw that picture.

It hit me hard, and it really freaked me out. I thought I was doing such a good job protecting our dogs, when it turned out all I was doing was stereotyping. And it wasn't helping the dogs at all. Between this and a lot of management changes I started really trying to be open minded. I started talking to people like they were people. And you know what? I realized that people are just people. The more respect I showed them, the better responses I got from them. The more I saw that most of them genuinely loved and enjoyed the dogs as much as I did. I did a lot more adoptions, and a lot more dogs are happy now.

I'm not saying I am perfect at this. I do have to consciously work against stereotyping. It's human nature - our minds want to make an order and a sense of things, especially when we are being protective. It's easier to think that all the big guys with hats and chains will fight dogs and all the moms with kids won't, but it doesn't actually work like that.

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And as far as the status symbol, it's really not the end of the world if someone thinks a blue pit bull makes them look manly. People get fluffy dogs, little dogs, rare dogs, and big dogs as status symbols. When I get a pit it will be a status symbol in the sense that I'm saying "hey I rescued this dog" and I think that as long as the dog is loved and happy, who really cares whose ego it's filling or whose manhood it's impersonating?


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And just in case you're wondering, Philadelphia has some serious, serious dog fighting issues.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Could you please back these claims up with statistics/sources?

Not sure exactly what their methodology is (they talk about it here: http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html), but these are the same statistics of temperament testing I've always been told while working in the shelter environment (same as the first link bunnity posted):

APBT (Total: 665 Passed: 567 Failed: 98 Percent Pass: 85.3%)
Am Staff Terrier (Total: 570 Passed: 478 Failed: 92 Percent Pass: 83.9%)
Golden Retriever (Total: 720 Passed: 609 Failed: 111 Percent Pass: 84.6%)


They're comparable.

 

[Ninnerfish]

This is just speculation, since none of us have the whole story, but it could be that the clinic is refusing these breeds for a reason entirely different from what has already been discussed. I think one of the first posts mentioned that the area where this clinic was located had a breed ban on these types of dogs in effect. In some areas where breed bans are in effect, dogs of the breeds in question that are already owned in the area are grandfathered in, while people are prohibited from getting new dogs of those breeds. By refusing to see new patients of the banned breeds, maybe the vets are just trying to avoid the legal complications that would arise from clients bringing in puppies/dogs that are obviously newly acquired and therefore illegal. I know that, as a doctor, I wouldn't want to be faced with the prospect of reporting clients that trust me with their pets' care. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to be held legally responsible in the eyes of the city if I didn't report these clients. It's an unfortunate situation to find yourself in, and perhaps one that the clinic in question is hoping to avoid by refusing to see new rottie/pit patients altogether.

 

[NStarz]

Can't find the bite statistics right now (will get them later), but here's the results of a nationwide temperament test, based on breed. Pitties are included:

http://www.atts.org/stats1.html (and you can find the other dogs there as well).

Some highlights:

Chihuahua's had a 71.1% pass rate
the APBT had an 85.3% pass rate, with Amstaffs coming in at 83.9%
Cairn terriers had a 71.7% pass rate
Shih tzu's had a 77.5% pass rate.

Labs and goldens scored very well according to these stats.

An articles from the Animal Farm Foundation on the temperaments of breeds:
http://animalfarmfoundation.org/fil...ficant differences between breeds SCHALKE.pdf

And another:
http://animalfarmfoundation.org/files/file/Fear v Fact.pdf


Some more links for extra info:

http://www.pbrc.net/misc/PBRC_stats.pdf

And another why dog bite 'statistics' are not really accurate

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dog-bites/

And a quote about bite statistics:

What About Bite Statistics? Do They Prove We Need BSL?:

Dog Bite Statistics are unreliable sources of information regarding the
"viciousness" or dangerousness of breeds for the following reasons:

1) Very few people can accurately identify dog breeds.

2) Breeds are not listed individually, but rather under group headings. For
instance, under the heading "pit bull", you will find no less than 3 distinct
breeds, mixes of any of those three breeds, any dog that appears to be
one of those breeds, plus any misidentified dogs. And make no mistake,
dogs get misidentified all the time. There is a case of an Akita attack that
was reported as a "pit bull attack" in the media. This author's dogs have
been mistaken for Boxers, Bulldogs, and yes, one was even mistaken for
an Akita. Just about any Pit Bull owner can tell you of many cases where
their dog has dealt with a case of mistaken identity.

3) Bite stats take into account only reported bites.

4) Bite stats do not take into account the dogs of a specified breed who
do NOT bite. No one knows the overall percentage of Pit Bulls who bite
compared to, let's say, the percentage of Dalmatians or Golden Retrievers
who bite.

5) Bite stats do not list "provoked" bites that occur at grooming shops and
veterinary offices. If you took a survey of groomers and veterinarians, I'm
sure you'd find an overwhelming majority of them would tell you that the
small, "cutesy" dogs that people generally hold as harmless are the dogs
that give them the most trouble. This author is an ex-groomer and can
attest to the fact that the big dogs, particularly the Pit Bulls, and other
similar breeds, are by far the most cooperative.

6) Bite stats DO list the truly provoked bites, i.e. dogs who have bitten
after being teased/harrassed/abused.

From: http://www.realpitbull.com/laws.html

Let me know if you'd like any more info!

 

[peachy3214]

again and this is the last thing i will say about it........The people that abuse pits and use them in dog fighting rings do tend to fit a certain stereotypical image. As with everything there are exceptions but most of the time not. This next comment will probably have some of you ready to hang me out to dry but just like many terrorists fit a certain profile so do most who want pit bulls for the wrong reason.

That is where you are misunderstanding me. Im not saying those who want pits fit a profile but those who want them for the wrong reasons do.

 

[DVMDream]

About the labs and goldens biting more than other "bully" breeds. One of the vets was reading from a veterinary magazine to me about the number one dog that bites in homes with children...it was the golden retriever but I pointed out that that would make sense because people with young children are more likely to get a breed that has been portrayed as being good with children...like golden retrievers. The number one dog to bite a veterinarian was the lab followed by the chihuahua. Again, though I think more people are likely to be bringing in the "family" pet (lab) to the vet so it is likely that they are just overrepresented. Also, I have to apologize for saying small, yappy dogs (I tend to use that to describe their bark), I do agree that they get more fearful in stressful situations and tend to fear bite more than bigger dogs and since I have never owned a small dog I really do not know how they act outside the clinic.

 

[NStarz]

P.S. Didn't mean to little-dog hate, but it seems that everyone's in the pittie-hate club lately, so I thought I'd spread the goods around 🙂

Like I said before, we as future veterinarians should be attempting to change the way that the pit bull (and other "scary" dogs) is viewed, and should be backing up our claims with reasearch that defeats what is currently "popular" in the media. I think that, as future advocates for animals, we owe them that much.

 

[NStarz]

About the labs and goldens biting more than other "bully" breeds. One of the vets was reading from a veterinary magazine to me about the number one dog that bites in homes with children...it was the golden retriever but I pointed out that that would make sense because people with young children are more likely to get a breed that has been portrayed as being good with children...like golden retrievers. The number one dog to bite a veterinarian was the lab followed by the chihuahua. Again, though I think more people are likely to be bringing in the "family" pet (lab) to the vet so it is likely that they are just overrepresented. Also, I have to apologize for saying small, yappy dogs (I tend to use that to describe their bark), I do agree that they get more fearful in stressful situations and tend to fear bite more than bigger dogs and since I have never owned a small dog I really do not know how they act outside the clinic.

This ^^^. Thanks for backing me up (not that this is a contest, but I'm happy that my claims were substantiated). I knew I saw the stats, but I'm not sure where.

 

[Shanomong]

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[bunnity]

again and this is the last thing i will say about it........The people that abuse pits and use them in dog fighting rings do tend to fit a certain stereotypical image. As with everything there are exceptions but most of the time not. This next comment will probably have some of you ready to hang me out to dry but just like many terrorists fit a certain profile so do most who want pit bulls for the wrong reason.

That is where you are misunderstanding me. Im not saying those who want pits fit a profile but those who want them for the wrong reasons do.

And I'm saying is that when you are looking at the world through a stereotyping lens you are going to continue to reinforce your own prejudices, but when you treat people as individuals you will realize that good - and bad - people come in all colors, classes, and appearances. And that good and bad dogs do too.

See my novel above.

 

[nitheninny]

About the labs and goldens biting more than other "bully" breeds. One of the vets was reading from a veterinary magazine to me about the number one dog that bites in homes with children...it was the golden retriever but I pointed out that that would make sense because people with young children are more likely to get a breed that has been portrayed as being good with children...like golden retrievers. The number one dog to bite a veterinarian was the lab followed by the chihuahua. Again, though I think more people are likely to be bringing in the "family" pet (lab) to the vet so it is likely that they are just overrepresented. Also, I have to apologize for saying small, yappy dogs (I tend to use that to describe their bark), I do agree that they get more fearful in stressful situations and tend to fear bite more than bigger dogs and since I have never owned a small dog I really do not know how they act outside the clinic.

That's the problem with statistics on dob bites. Certain breeds are far more popular than others, and certain breeds are far more popular family pets than others. I work with multiple golden retriever breeders and therefore spend my summers surrounded by 30+ goldens on average, and in all that time I've only met one who really bit (there are a few young dogs who are mouthy, but IMO that's not exactly the same thing). When you consider the popularity of goldens with families with young children and then imagine these dogs getting their tails pulled, their ears messed with, kids in their faces... yeah, I can imagine that goldens might be overrepresented in these stats. And then you have to remember that stats that deal ONLY with the occurrence of a bite (as opposed to severity), you get even more discrepancies.

One of the breeders I work with once made a comment that essentially said that goldens never bite. And as much as I love goldens and do view them as primarily gentle dogs, I almost laughed in her face. Because under the right circumstances, ANY dog will bite. The thing we as future vets need to do is advocate proper training and handling of all dogs to minimize these occurrences.

 

[cowgirla]

And I'm saying is that when you are looking at the world through a stereotyping lens you are going to continue to reinforce your own prejudices, but when you treat people as individuals you will realize that good - and bad - people come in all colors, classes, and appearances. And that good and bad dogs do too.

The best APBT breeder I know is a young black guy who dresses entirely in white wife-beaters and doesn't enunciate his words very well. (I hate to say it, but he sounds "black" and stoned, even when I know for a fact that he doesn't smoke) His dogs are friendly, well-behaved, even around other animals. He's got all his genetic testing done, OFA, Best in shows and Champions on all his bitches and studs, one litter per bitch every 2-3 years, no more than 3 litters max. He definitely does it right, and looking at him, and all you can think is "okay, this guy wants out of here so he can get back to his pot" and "uh oh, don't piss him off, I'll bet he's got a gun under that leather jacket."

Such a nice guy, and I'd take one of his dogs in a heartbeat 🙂

 

[PrimalMU]

That study was based out of Denver, a city that bans pitbulls. So not a good one to quote 🙂

"In Denver, CO, a breed ban has been in place since 1989 but the law has done nothing to curb the number of pit bulls in their city. Doug Kelley, director of Denver Animal Care & Control, has admitted that the breed ban has shown no tangible results."

http://www.indypitcrew.org/bsl.htm

Unfortunately, the link it references is no longer up (though you might be able to find it in the archives).

Here is an excerpt from the AVMA's A community approach to dog bite prevention:

Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite.7 Invariably the numbers will show that dogs from popular large breeds are a problem. This should be expected, because big dogs can physically do more damage if they do bite, and any popular breed has more individuals that could bite. Dogs from small breeds also bite and are capable of causing severe injury. There are several reasons why it is not possible to calculate a bite rate for a breed or to compare rates between breeds. First, the breed of the biting dog may not be accurately recorded, and mixed-breed dogs are commonly described as if they were purebreds. Second, the actual number of bites that occur in a community is not known, especially if they did not result in serious injury. Third, the number of dogs of a particular breed or combination of breeds in a community is not known, because it is rare for all dogs in a community.

 

[Minnerbelle]

This next comment will probably have some of you ready to hang me out to dry but just like many terrorists fit a certain profile so do most who want pit bulls for the wrong reason.

So should a person who fits a terrorist profile be banned from flying on American commercial airplanes?


More on topic: Since I dunno the situation behind the clinic in question, I'm not going to comment on what their motivation might have been for the ban, and personally don't know enough about private practice to know the business aspect of this... but I gotta comment about the dog fighting thing. From my observations from a shelter perspective, a lot of dogs owned by dog fighters don't even turn out vicious. Some do, and some don't. Especially the dogs that are used as bait are usually the sweetest animals you will ever meet. Not a mean bone in their bodies, which is why they're used as bait.

 

[NStarz]

And then you have to remember that stats that deal ONLY with the occurrence of a bite (as opposed to severity), you get even more discrepancies.

under the right circumstances, ANY dog will bite. The thing we as future vets need to do is advocate proper training and handling of all dogs to minimize these occurrences.

This 👍👍👍. Well said.

 

[cowgirla]

"In Denver, CO, a breed ban has been in place since 1989 but the law has done nothing to curb the number of pit bulls in their city. Doug Kelley, director of Denver Animal Care & Control, has admitted that the breed ban has shown no tangible results."

Yes, but the study you quoted from originally said "Pit bulls were not represented in the study (In 1989 Denver banned pit bulls)" right at the top of the page.

You commented "Interestingly enough, the study only received very low numbers where pit bulls were involved in a biting incident. "

So whether BSL works or not wasn't what I meant by my comment. I just meant that they weren't counted at all in that study.

So, that's why. They didn't even look at pittie numbers.

 

[pibbles]

I'm not gonna defend my opinions anymore or be told in however many ways that I'm basically a bad person by people that clearly have no exposure to the underground world of dog fighting and what it does to the pit bull image. As I have said I have no problems with pits and know many responsible owners with pits. But I do live in a predominately poor area where most people think that the lifestyle they hear about in rap songs and what they are exposed to in drug rings and other crime rings is what they should strive for. I LIVE HERE, I SEE IT EVERYDAY, im not stereotyping im speaking off what i see. These 8/10 are the people abusing these pits in the dog fighting circles. When I walk my friends pit down the street only "thugs"(oooooo dirty word) are the ones that stop to ask me about the dog, no one else. One actually asked me if i ran him on the treadmill to make his muscles bigger so he looked more intimidating. Thats the world that I live in and thats how the dog fighting world runs and thats who runs in these underground circles. Where I live the by the vet banning pits she is saying that they arent gonna find acceptance for what they are doing to these dogs there.

So all I'm saying is dont break out the pitchforks just because a clinic banned certain breeds when you dont know the back story.

And now I am in the same position as Nstarz. You have hit a huge sore spot for me.

Have you ever been to a dogfight? How are you involved in the "underground" world of dog fighting? Have you ever met a dog that was used for fighting before? As it was already mentioned, they are not bred to be human aggressive so the dogmen (handlers) do not get hurt. How much do you know about dog fighting? I do not condone dog fighting (obviously), but I have educated myself on the subject so that I could better understand and help the dogs involved.

I live about 20 minutes from Detroit. Would you like to tell me that I don't see pit bull type dogs every day at the Michigan HS? Or even at any of the local animal control shelters? The clinic I work at?

Dog fighting is a serious issue in the United States, but groups like HSUS and PETA make it seem like every single pit bull type dog is involved in a dog fighting ring. I'm sorry that you believe this ridiculous assumption, but maybe if you took the time to talk to people in your area, you would see that it's possible they just wanted a pit bull dog because they liked how they looked, acted, etc.

Yes, some people get dogs as a status symbol. Paris Hilton got the little chihuahua Tink as an accessory. Rob Dyrdek got Meaty the bulldog to have a skateboarding bulldog. And some people get pit bull dogs to look like they are dominate and authoritative. Getting a dog as a status symbol is nothing new and has nothing to do with one specific breed of dogs. If dogs didn't represent status, there would be no "market" for purebreds.

I think you are under the impression that only lower class people are abusive to their pets and are involved in dog fighting. It's funny then, isn't it, that Michael Vick, a very rich man, chose to abuse animals. Would it be totally wrong to say that it is possible that even middle and high class people abuse animals? It's almost like saying only poor people are capable of crime, when Martha Stewart went to jail for fraud lol.

My APBT tore her ACL a month and a half ago. We are currently using a treadmill as a controlled form of physical therapy. Treadmills are not dog fighting paraphernalia. Perhaps people that don't know a lot about dog fighting would think this, and education is again the key. Michigan has awful winters, and treadmills are a great way to exercise any type of dog, as long as they are used in the correct way.

Your vet clinic that bans pit bull type dogs is doing no service to the breed or the alleged "thugs" in your area. Welcoming them and educating them about proper dog ownership would make a much bigger impact in your area. If the problem is ignored, it will stay there.

I realize that you haven't had many positive interactions with pit bull dogs, and I feel very sorry for you. They truly are wonderful dogs. In a shelter situation, dogs get stressed, so maybe you haven't figured out how to read their warning signals yet, but I hope one day you do.

Please don't feel like this is a personal attack on you. It's not. I am a huge advocate for all bully dogs, and will defend them when appropriate. I would NEVER support an aggressive dog, regardless of the breed, because human lives cannot be put into danger. But summing all dogs of a certain type (pit bull refers to many breeds) does not solve any problems or create a safety net in a workplace.

I encourage everyone to check out these links and educate yourselves 🙂

http://pbrc.net/
http://badrap.org/rescue/index.html
http://www.atts.org/index.html


."I am accustomed to hearing malicious falsehoods about myself, but I think I have a right to resent, to object to, libelous statements about my dog."
- FDR .

 

[NStarz]

Yes, but the study you quoted from originally said "Pit bulls were not represented in the study (In 1989 Denver banned pit bulls)" right at the top of the page.

You commented "Interestingly enough, the study only received very low numbers where pit bulls were involved in a biting incident. "

So whether BSL works or not wasn't what I meant by my comment. I just meant that they weren't counted at all in that study.

So, that's why. They didn't even look at pittie numbers.

Here's a link to articles proving that BSL is not effective. There are more out there, one only needs to do a search.


http://animalfarmfoundation.org/view_article.php?id=86


Here's also a link to a local trainer, whom I have worked with extensively. He has a ton of resources on his website.

pitbullguru.com

He's also made a documentary (with expert testimony) about the myths and misfortune of BSL.



Oh haha I just had to share this, on the animalfarmfoundation's website:

We fund breed specific programs, not because pit bulls are different from other dogs, but because they are not.

 

[peachy3214]

And I'm saying is that when you are looking at the world through a stereotyping lens you are going to continue to reinforce your own prejudices, but when you treat people as individuals you will realize that good - and bad - people come in all colors, classes, and appearances. And that good and bad dogs do too.

This is comical. Good and bad people do come in all colors and classes but that doesnt mean that some arent doing something more than others.........I dont believe that facts are prejudiced......Terrorists tend to be middle eastern muslims.....fact. What was traditionally an activity participated in by poor whites in the rural South, dog fighting has now become as popular as football or basketball amongst a great many black Americans particulary in the south....fact. NBA player Stephon Marbury who plays for the New York Knicks, recently defended Vick by saying: "They don't say anything about people shooting deer." He went on to declare: "Dog fighting is a sport!" and this gem from Deion Sanders "It reminds me of when I wore a lot of jewelry back in the day because I always wanted to have the biggest chain or the biggest, baddest car. It gives you status."


and before I get thrown under the racist bus, my mother is black so I have nothing against the black community.

 

[peachy3214]

....I am not under the assumption that all lower class people are abuse to their pets or in dog rings. Vick is a poor example by the way, Where do you think he came from. I grew up down the street from vick and to clarify yes I have been to dog fights and in the dog fighting world. Closer then anyone here it is safe to assume as I went to fights a child with my uncles. This is why I am so passionate about the kind of people that support this things and abuse pits and this is why I hate dog fighting more than most.

 

[cowgirla]

Here's a link to articles proving that BSL is not effective. There are more out there, one only needs to do a search.


http://animalfarmfoundation.org/view_article.php?id=86


Here's also a link to a local trainer, whom I have worked with extensively. He has a ton of resources on his website.

pitbullguru.com

He's also made a documentary (with expert testimony) about the myths and misfortune of BSL.

...I thought I already agreed that BSL wasn't effective?

You posted:

Dogs predominantly of German shepherd, chow chow, collie and akita breeds were substantially more frequent among biting than nonbiting dogs. The total numbers of dogs mainly collie (n=9) and akita (n=5) breeds were small compared to the total numbers of German shepherd (n=47) and chow chows (n=40).

Dogs predominantly of German shepherd, chow chow, collie and akita breeds were substantially more frequent among biting than nonbiting dogs. The total numbers of dogs mainly collie (n=9) and akita (n=5) breeds were small compared to the total numbers of German shepherd (n=47) and chow chows (n=40).
http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-study-whichdogsbite.htm

Is anyone else not surprised that chows made the top of the list? Interestingly enough, the study only received very low numbers where pit bulls were involved in a biting incident.

All I'm pointing out is that those numbers are low, because right at the top of the page it says "no pitbulls were included in this study"

BSL is a load of (%*#, and you won't hear me say otherwise.

 

[pibbles]

We fund breed specific programs, not because pit bulls are different from other dogs, but because they are not.

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

I say this every day! I love my little pibble girl and think she is the most precious creature on earth lol, but I STILL have to explain to people that she's just another dog, just like my neighbor's beagle or lab. She is special to me, but in reality, she is just another dog.

 

[NStarz]

...I thought I already agreed that BSL wasn't effective?

You posted:


All I'm pointing out is that those numbers are low, because right at the top of the page it says "no pitbulls were included in this study"

BSL is a load of (%*#, and you won't hear me say otherwise.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, quite the contrary! I was backing you up with another link cause you said yours was broken. The second piece you quoted wasn't mine, though! Heh, emotions are a-flying right now!

 

[cowgirla]

I wasn't disagreeing with you, quite the contrary! I was backing you up with another link cause you said yours was broken. The second piece you quoted wasn't mine, though! Heh, emotions are a-flying right now!

Nope, that wasnt me you meant to quote then! No broken links here. Two cases of mistaken posting identity. No wonder I'm confuzzled.

 

[NStarz]

....I am not under the assumption that all lower class people are abuse to their pets or in dog rings. Vick is a poor example by the way, Where do you think he came from. I grew up down the street from vick and to clarify yes I have been to dog fights and in the dog fighting world. Closer then anyone here it is safe to assume as I went to fights a child with my uncles. This is why I am so passionate about the kind of people that support this things and abuse pits and this is why I hate dog fighting more than most.

Not to be personally abrasive (that's the last thing I want), but why were you in attendance of dog fights? The only dogfights I've ever been to were for the purpose of shutting them down. It seems like you were a spectator, so I ask: why didn't you do anything about it (call the cops, animal control, hell, anything!)?

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[BarnyardPunch]

I'm inclined to think/guess that it's an insurance thing since these are the breeds spelled out in many insurance policies as needing additional riders (fees) for coverage. I couldn't judge the decision without knowing the specifics and even then, it's not like I know what it's like to try to make ends meet in a smaller clinic. Could be that those breeds made up 4% of their business, but 20% of their other customers felt uncomfortable bringing their animal in with a pit sitting there. Or maybe there was a fight instigated by a pit/bull/rott that ended poorly and they felt they needed to do this to keep clientele from fleeing. Who knows?

With regard to waiting room shenanigans, many clinics that I've been to as a customer could do SO MUCH more to make that area safe and less stressful for people and pets alike. You'll never be able to make them 100% conflict-free (there will always be clueless owners) and not every clinic is large enough, but having a few separating areas with visual blocks like half-walls or large potted plants can go a long way. Oh and having front staff who are engaged and can firmly, but very politely direct people when their precious Foofy is running rip shod over the place.

 

[NStarz]

Nope, that wasnt me you meant to quote then! No broken links here. Two cases of mistaken posting identity. No wonder I'm confuzzled.

Haha, glad we've cleared that up 🙂

 

[peachy3214]

Not to be personally abrasive (that's the last thing I want), but why were you in attendance of dog fights? The only dogfights I've ever been to were for the purpose of shutting them down. It seems like you were a spectator, so I ask: why didn't you do anything about it (call the cops, animal control, hell, anything!)?

I was a child, like 7 and 8. You dont usually think to call the cops on your care takers at that age.

 

[PrimalMU]

Well, at the very least my thread has sparked some stimulating discussions!

 

[peachy3214]

It is not an aspect of my life that I wanted to bring up. But my "credentials" or the truth of my exposure to the topic was questioned.

 

[TrocarKarin]

All the little dog hate makes me sad 🙁

Yappy, land shark, etc... I have small dogs (and a rottie...), they're not agressive. It's another stereotype that people enjoy perpetuating and while it's not going to result in breed bans it's just as wrong. I've seen equal behaviors from dogs of all sizes. Small dogs to tend to be more fearful in strange scenarios, but fear biting isn't quite the same thing... and I wouldn't even say it's all that more common in the little guys.

Can't we all just get along and show love for all dogs, great and small? 😀

The problem isn't so much with the dogs themselves, as with the owners who carry them everywhere, baby them, and basically let them feel entitled to whatever they want, instead of just being dogs. You know, the ones who are unsocialized, fearful, defensives, but "mommy just wuuuuvs her wittle sweetums."

That study was based out of Denver, a city that bans pitbulls. So not a good one to quote 🙂

Denver has had their BSL on the books since the 80's, but hasn't actively enforced it until '05. So it might be fairly accurate.

 

[cowgirla]

It always makes me laugh....

A client walks in, and sees a dog sitting there, barking, looking agressive, whatever.
"Oh, I don't like pitbulls," they said.
"Sorry, ma'am, but that's a boxer."


A client walks in and sees a dog sitting there, tail wagging, ears flopping, whole hind wiggling with happiness.
"Oh, I love labs, they're such nice family dogs.
"Sorry, sir, that's a staffordshire terrier."

And that's half the problem right there 🙂

 

[pibbles]

....I am not under the assumption that all lower class people are abuse to their pets or in dog rings. Vick is a poor example by the way, Where do you think he came from. I grew up down the street from vick and to clarify yes I have been to dog fights and in the dog fighting world. Closer then anyone here it is safe to assume as I went to fights a child with my uncles. This is why I am so passionate about the kind of people that support this things and abuse pits and this is why I hate dog fighting more than most.

You implied that more lower class people fight dogs than higher class people. Vick was no longer lower class, and the rign they busted in the mid-west last fall involved middle and upper-class citizens.

I grew up down the street from Eminem lol. You aren't the only person living in an urban area where dog fighting exists. It's awful that your uncles would go to dog fights, let alone take a child to one. The thought of it makes me sick to my stomach. You can argue the race card all you want, but dog fighting is not a sport specific to an ethnic group, just as terrorism is not specific to the Muslim community. What's going on in Darfur? Or how about North Korea? Are those people not considered terrorists because they aren't threatening the United States?

You don't hate dog fighting more than most. You make the problem worse by throwing all of these stereotypes out and hoping it will go away. People like you are the reason others cross the street when I am walking my CGC, therapy certified APBT on the sidewalk. You say you like "pits," but you just continue to add ignorance to the negativity surrounding the breed.

PM me if you'd like to discuss this further.