Looking at money in medicine .. for pre meds

[PikminOC]

True but NPs start working 6 years earlier than a physician so it's around $7.5k total lifetime income. Only around 1.8 million dollars less. Psych NPS make excellent money. I've seen some jobs for psych nps where starting pay is around 200-250k. Also the lowest paid doctors are pediatricians at around 205k per year. 205*40-300 is $7.9 million lifetime income. So it's not a huge difference compared to psych NPs and CRNAS.

Yes, esp private practice NP. They bill under the supervising doc so get doc pay.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[notretired]

The only thing I know with medicine is the level of responsibility.

Right because air traffic controllers, industrial engineers, and auto mechanics have no responsibility? There are plenty of career fields in which mistakes can have catastrophic consequences to human life. Medicine does not have a monopoly on job related stress.

 

[PikminOC]

Right because air traffic controllers, industrial engineers, and auto mechanics have no responsibility? There are plenty of career fields in which mistakes can have catastrophic consequences to human life. Medicine does not have a monopoly on job related stress.

I just mentioned medicine. No other fields. With no tort reform and state medical boards, it can get hairy

 

[notretired]

I just mentioned medicine. No other fields. With no tort reform and state medical boards, it can get hairy

Gotcha, didn't follow the context entirely.

 

[futureDocDD]

The hardest part I think for pre-med is getting into med school, that's almost the end of the entire weed-out process. Once you're in, the med school is more concerned that you can't graduate than you doubting yourself. Assuming it is MD school, you won't have much problem finding residency spot (assuming not a competitive specialty) and typically you will not be jobless when you start your attending. BUT that's not true for most law students or MBA students. They could have borrow student loan as much as med students but the job prospect is way worse. Some people might do well in IB but that's not as sustainable as a physician's career. IT career can start out great but by the time you reach of age of 40+, your job could easily be outsourced and you will be first to get laid off if you're not keeping up with new technology (but you're getting old and your brain is not young any more).

 

[RangerBob]

Yes, esp private practice NP. They bill under the supervising doc so get doc pay.

They do not-the supervising physician takes a cut. They better-they have to pay more in malpractice if they oversee midlevels, and the NP takes time to train/present the patients, chart audits, etc.

I agree NP/PA is a route worth considering. Better hours, less call (and always have a backup physician), more flexibility, good pay. But many drawbacks too-but there are plenty of threads about that.

 

[mcat_taker]

I like to put things in perspective a bit to understand how much money even “just” $240K is...I bought my car in 2015 at $21,000 when I was making around $40/hr on average. 5 year finance, 2.6% interest rate - good deal, good payment plan, good car. At $240,000 annually, I could pay cash for my car every 6 weeks post tax. That is insane. And that is just Salary income, not passive from owning property or stocks or whatever. Not wealth, just straight up income.

Having grown up how I have and now loved how I have, all middle class to upper middle class in lifestyle, I genuinely cannot understand how financial compensation is an issue. Medicine most certainly has its problems and complaints about the profession are genuine, justified, and valid...but to have income as one of those complaints is petty.

So I understand the umbrage that premed students have when people come on this thread and talk about poor financial compensation for physicians. You will have likely worked menial jobs in the past getting ready for med school and 240k sounds like a lot of money at the end. I think the idea of these cautionary posts are to explain that medicine is not without its own faults. It's a very highly regulated field and not as fun as the TV shows make it out to be. Most doctors feel underpaid for what they have to do on a day to day basis and for how much they are working. This is hard to explain until you are in their shoes. Most premed and med students have little concept of money and what constitutes a lot or a little. Once you are on this train its hard to get off. These are just other viewpoints to get people to think more.

Yes we've beaten to the death the point that physicians also have a lot of debt to pay off which has been accruing interest. No one is saying a doctor is going to be poor even with debt but it is something to consider on an individual basis because it might mean living frugally for even longer. This is tough when considering where you will be in your life at that point, married with kids possibly.

However, everything is relative. Most doctors are comparing themselves to their peers not to the guy working at McDonalds. You cant take 240k and look at it in a vacuum. Many of their peers are also very intelligent high earning professionals making a lot of money. This is why 240k after 10 years of extra work to get there seems like a poor deal to some in comparison, not to mention debt driving down that take home pay which other people don't have. On top of that the most ideal places to live often are saturated with physicians driving pay down, midlevels trying to do your job drive pay down, government regulating reimbursement, etc.

And yes I understand some medical fields pay a lot more than 240k, but they also require a lot more time to get there and are very competitive in themselves. I'm not talking about the cardiologist or GI doc making 400k here.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

True but NPs start working 6 years earlier than a physician so it's around $7.5k total lifetime income. Only around 1.8 million dollars less. Psych NPS make excellent money. I've seen some jobs for psych nps where starting pay is around 200-250k. I don't know how to insert pictures on SDN but her are some high paying psych NP jobs.

Note: There was enough interesting content that I decided to post. Sorry.


Individual lawsuits are not likely to impede the growth of NPs. If patient litigation becomes a recurrent issue, then hospital networks will simply treat NPs like they do physicians who they feel have committed malpractice after doing their own internal investigations with HR and attorneys. Basically the patient files a case against the hospital and then the hospital can open their own lawsuit against the physician to recoup damages to the patient and also to preserve the reputation of the hospital network.

Compensation patterns for FNPs and PMHNPs will not reach physician salary levels. If the ANA or the AANP are pushing this through legislation, then it is a cover play to get something else they want through Congress/Senate. Mid levels are keenly aware that the reason they are present is because hospital networks and private practice groups can pocket the difference from having to hire another physician or partner. IIRC the reason why CRNAs are well compensated is because of how Medicare provides the same funding to both an anesthesiologist and a nurse anesthetist as it funds based on service provided and not on practitioner proficiency. For this reason, private practice groups and hospitals can pocket the differential in operating costs by choosing a more efficient model.



Being absolutely non-sarcastic, I would love to see where these jobs are if they are not in San Fran, New York, or some area with a ridiculously high cost of living. My understanding was that average comp for Psych NP was $90-$110k with the higher end of payment being reflective of desirable coastal areas where expenses are high.



People on both ends of this discussion are too interested in polarizing hypothetical circumstances that its frankly not an accurate point of direction and unfortunately many premeds are going to be misdirected by conversations like this. You put the point that you earned $40/hr working 5 10's which not a common situation in terms of hours required or payment out. I agree on many levels with CidHighwind, however his statement in his original thread of people working 50-60 hours for $50,000 is analogous to me writing that I worked 70 hours a week, lived out of my car, and still made less than $40,000 a year for at least three years. There are better options that people can achieve with an associates degree and one specialty rather than encouraging people to pursue several different specialties. It seems like people forgot Planes2Doc's Final Fantasy thread where pursuing all the mini games and raising chocobos should not be conflated with completing the actual game (this is not directed at you or what you wrote, rather this post is somewhat of my own tangent).

Is working 50 hours a week solely from work, is the work mentally taxing or menial, how much in commute time gets lost from that time involvement, and what is the education level of these people who are working these hours? There's different qualifying factors for hours and income that people intentionally don't caveat because there's an intrigue with approaching these questions from a low-context perspective. For instance, a data scientist or a computer programmer may be tasked with working together to flesh out an API or UI. They may think about the question when they are home, commuting, or they may even communicate through Slack when they are at home in order to guide the team towards different approaches. Are those considerations also factored into hours if the work is cerebral? On the other end, some people with two jobs are working a second job through ride fair or Grubhub type jobs that involve relatively low responsibility and performance expectations. Maybe coming out before ride sharing apps is clouding my thinking on adding in 10 hours with a mix of it being waiting for the app to pick up customers v. actually driving customers to be a conflation of actually working a second job for all 10 hours. However, I have found people to frequently over report the hours they have worked and like to under report the pay they have earned.

Not sure if these links will work but here are some Psych Np jobs that are in Maryland, Minnesota, Texas states with low costs of living and high pay for psych NPs. Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner $125,000 Jobs, Employment | Indeed.com Maryland 170-200k. Psych NP in minnesota 200-250k . Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner $125,000 Jobs, Employment | Indeed.com Arizona around 180-192k per year. Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner $125,000 Jobs, Employment | Indeed.com Arizona 160k Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner $125,000 Jobs, Employment | Indeed.com Here is a job in Wisconsin 120-150k Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner $125,000 Jobs, Employment | Indeed.com Here is one in Texas 150-220k Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner $125,000 Jobs, Employment in Texas | Indeed.com There's a lot more high paying Psych NP jobs I just don't want to post anymore links lol.

 

[PikminOC]

They do not-the supervising physician takes a cut. They better-they have to pay more in malpractice if they oversee midlevels, and the NP takes time to train/present the patients, chart audits, etc.

I agree NP/PA is a route worth considering. Better hours, less call (and always have a backup physician), more flexibility, good pay. But many drawbacks too-but there are plenty of threads about that.

My malpractice doesnt charge me more for supervision.
Many docs are stupid and dont take much of a cut. And the NP's still make alot even if the cut is big given their education.
And many docs dont do the audits, reviews etc. They "cover" NP's far away from them.

 

[notretired]

However, everything is relative. Most doctors are comparing themselves to their peers not to the guy working at McDonalds.

The fact that they are comparing themselves to anyone financially says a lot more about the person than the profession.

So I understand the umbrage that premed students have when people come on this thread and talk about poor financial compensation for physicians. You will have likely worked menial jobs in the past getting ready for med school and 240k sounds like a lot of money at the end.

There are multiple posters in this thread who have walked the walk prior to taking the med route. Pursuing med was an awful decision for myself financially - but that was never what it was about. 240k sounds like a lot of money because it is, in any career field, period.

 

[PikminOC]

The fact that they are comparing themselves to anyone financially says a lot more about the person than the profession.



There are multiple posters in this thread who have walked the walk prior to taking the med route. Pursuing med was an awful decision for myself financially - but that was never what it was about. 240k sounds like a lot of money because it is, in any career field, period.

Finances have to be a part of it, as there is so much time, blood, sweat, and tears put into medicine.

 

[notretired]

Finances have to be a part of it, as there is so much time, blood, sweat, and tears put into medicine.

There's a big difference between: "I want to make enough money to live comfortably and put my kids through school" vs. "I want to outdo jimmy the lawyer who just leased his third Tesla this year." As alluded to above, there are blood, sweat, and tears involved in a variety of professions - most of which don't pay nearly as well as medicine.

 

[PikminOC]

There's a big difference between: "I want to make enough money to live comfortably and put my kids through school" vs. "I want to outdo jimmy the lawyer who just leased his third Tesla this year." As alluded to above, there are blood, sweat, and tears involved in a variety of professions - most of which don't pay nearly as well as medicine.

Depends on the definition of Live comfortably. Everyone's is different and some include a Tesla.

 

[RangerBob]

My malpractice doesnt charge me more for supervision.
Many docs are stupid and dont take much of a cut. And the NP's still make alot even if the cut is big given their education.
And many docs dont do the audits, reviews etc. They "cover" NP's far away from them.

Odd-I would expect risk to go up and this malpractice premiums as well.

If docs aren’t taking much of a cut they’re being real stupid for taking on extra risk. Not doing audits and reviews is also a recipe for poor care/errors.

Nursing has such a good lobby that it’s a hard profession to beat. Even NPs have it great-three 12-hr shifts is full time. Imagine four days off per week. All that overtime. Union benefits... Nursing knows how to organize. Physicians don’t.

Personally I wouldn’t want to be an RN. Couldn’t handle it. But I do encourage pre-meds to consider NP/PA. Less school and sacrifice, good money (not as good as a physician, but proportionately for the work, responsibility, work/life balance I feel they get paid better). If you take it seriously (don’t do an online NP, etc), you can still do a lot for your patients.

 

[Select All That Apply]

@RangerBob Average for a shift RN according to Pay Scale is $31.50. Working three 12 hour shifts for 36 hours comes out to an annual income of $58,968 which is a lot different than what was discussed here for people working 50-60 hours to make $50,000-$60,000. Considering that many nurses are being signed into hospitals with only an associates degree makes it such a convincing comparison point for where other occupations should be centered around when it comes to paying their employees.

 

[PikminOC]

@RangerBob Average for a shift RN according to Pay Scale is $31.50. Working three 12 hour shifts for 36 hours comes out to an annual income of $58,968 which is a lot different than what was discussed here for people working 50-60 hours to make $50,000-$60,000. Considering that many nurses are being signed into hospitals with only an associates degree makes it such a convincing comparison point for where other occupations should be centered around when it comes to paying their employees.

Don't forget phat signing bonuses for nurses
And they shut their brains off after the shift.

 

[RangerBob]

@RangerBob Average for a shift RN according to Pay Scale is $31.50. Working three 12 hour shifts for 36 hours comes out to an annual income of $58,968 which is a lot different than what was discussed here for people working 50-60 hours to make $50,000-$60,000. Considering that many nurses are being signed into hospitals with only an associates degree makes it such a convincing comparison point for where other occupations should be centered around when it comes to paying their employees.

They make even more here in CA.

Plus, nursing is almost always the most trusted profession in the US (I think firefighters beat them in 2001)--people trust and respect their nurses, with good reason.

It's a difficult job-I couldn't do it. I'd rather work 50hrs/week as an MD (closer to 60-80 right now, but that's just temporary.) than work 36hrs a week as an RN. I think being an RN would be far more stressful--I have a lot of respect for our RNs.

 

[PikminOC]

They make even more here in CA.

Plus, nursing is almost always the most trusted profession in the US (I think firefighters beat them in 2001)--people trust and respect their nurses, with good reason.

It's a difficult job-I couldn't do it. I'd rather work 50hrs/week as an MD (closer to 60-80 right now, but that's just temporary.) than work 36hrs a week as an RN. I think being an RN would be far more stressful--I have a lot of respect for our RNs.

Being an RN is a very different skillset than physician

 

[EMS0821]

All things considered in medicine, yes, its a lot of work. I don't think that too many med students expect to work 20 hours a week for 2 million a year income. Sure, there will be plenty of people in finance and business making way more than a physician will. But few other professions offer the ability to make a top couple percent income wherever they want to move to in the country. Few other professions provide the personal satisfaction of being able to help the members of their community in the same way a physician can. Coming from a family where our household income was around 60k a year, the possibility of earning 200k a year while helping the community in whatever place of the country I choose is not something I'll find in another job, and is more than enough money for a reasonable person. You may say, that PAs and CRNAs make a lot too, they do, but with less education/responsibility that many people actually crave. Not always such a bad thing to be interested in having more responsibility. Its easy to s*** on medicine and talk about the problems within it; there are a lot. But the grass isn't greener in the other fields for reasons we've beaten to death in this thread. A physician who is smart with their finances can also reach financial independence way earlier than other fields if they hate it that much. I've met plenty of people working past their age of retirement because they have to, won't see a lot of doctors like that unless they really suck with their money.

Median HOUSEHOLD income of an american: 61k/year: Start at 20, retire at 65: $61k * 45 years= $2.745 million
Median physician salary: 200k/year: Start at 30, retire at 65: ($200k * 35 years) -350,000 (really expensive schools)=$6.650 million
Assumptions: started work and ended it with the same income; no breaks in salary or bonuses

But they get to start getting compound interest sooner!!1! Sure, but it still doesn't reach the same level without serious frugality, and even, still won't compare. Say each group saves 20% of their income as recommended by many sources. To be of note, this will be much, much harder as someone earning 61k than someone earning 200k. sidenote: A large percentage (more than half) of Americans don't have more than 10k in the bank at any given point. Lets go with that compound interest idea though:

Median HOUSEHOLD income of an american saving 20% of their income: 12k a year: Investing at 7% interest for 45 years -> $3.8 million at retirement
Median physician salary saving 20% per year: 20k a year investing at 35 for 30 years -> $4 million dollars. If you aren't out of debt after practicing for 5 years, take a better look at where you're money is going, this is a very achievable goal.
- Well taken point, the numbers read pretty closely. But why doesn't everyone retire a multi-millionaire? Investing is hard, and emotionally laden. Also, saving is hard for a lot of people. Also, a physician still has 160k to work with after their 20% savings, whereas the median american household has 49K left to work with. One is certainly more likely to feel comfortable engaging in investing than the other.


tl;dr medicine gives you a near guarantee of an income that is almost 2 standard deviations above the mean while also being a position that you can take virtually anywhere you want in the country while also having the personal satisfaction of directly improving the lives of others. Its easy to find faults, but equally easy to find the benefits. Find me a better job; protip, you can't.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Don't forget phat signing bonuses for nurses
And they shut their brains off after the shift.

This seems to be implying there aren't "phat" signing bonuses for physicians...

Physicians can get loan repayment if they take jobs in undesirable locations worth 3-400k.
RNs get 10-30k payed out over 3 years and taxed as a bonus.
One of the biggest motivators for me to push through for an MD is that I wasn't only working "36 hours" like I thought I would be. My QOL wasn't good enough to justify 1/5 the pay.

Certainly the roles are completely different, the training is different, and the liability is different, but at the end of the day I don't think the grass is *quite* as green as most of the physicians make it out to be. Nobody in nursing starves, but very few get rich, either.

Can you say that about physicians?

It's difficult to be a physician and *not* be wealthy (as defined by society, not someone who needs a Tesla to feel "comfortable") unless you make very, very stupid decisions.

 

[PikminOC]

This seems to be implying there aren't "phat" signing bonuses for physicians...

Physicians can get loan repayment if they take jobs in undesirable locations worth 3-400k.
RNs get 10-30k payed out over 3 years and taxed as a bonus.
One of the biggest motivators for me to push through for an MD is that I wasn't only working "36 hours" like I thought I would be. My QOL wasn't good enough to justify 1/5 the pay.

Certainly the roles are completely different, the training is different, and the liability is different, but at the end of the day I don't think the grass is *quite* as green as most of the physicians make it out to be. Nobody in nursing starves, but very few get rich, either.

Can you say that about physicians?

It's difficult to be a physician and *not* be wealthy (as defined by society, not someone who needs a Tesla to feel "comfortable") unless you make very, very stupid decisions.

Rn's cant get loan repayments too? You cant compare different things.

And yes, the training is very different. Takes more than an extra 4/5th training to become a physician. The competition with med students is amazing.
And you're an M2. Please post more on this thread when you have been practicing medicine for a while after residency.

 

[deleted987519]

Please post more on this thread when you have been practicing medicine for a while after residency.

This is the pre-med forum

 

[PikminOC]

This is the pre-med forum

And someday, some of you will finish med school and residency

 

[907914]

This is the pre-med forum

No, this is Patrick.

 

[Gilakend]

I still don't understand why rural physicians make more money.

I'm from and want to practice in a rural area, in general insurance for people in my area isn't as good as it is for high paying city slickers and the physicians seem to have comparable lifestyles to physicians I've shadowed in more urban/suburban areas. I don't understand where the supposed extra money is coming from?

Could anyone explain this to me? The only way I could think of would be that they have a much higher volume of patients, but I haven't personally seen that big of a difference.

 

[907914]

I still don't understand why rural physicians make more money.

Rural physicians that make more are often hospital based as opposed to private practice. It is likely incentivized salary to get the doc to stay around because it is a rural area. In terms of private practive that makes more, my best guess would be that Urban/city sees a lot more bread and butter low RVU type stuff, whereas the rural med is going to be getting a higher density of the weird stuff because patients don't want to or cannot travel far.

 

[PikminOC]

If I am going to work for my whole life I want to do something that makes me feel like I did not waste my time on this earth. I think medicine is one of the best vocations to have a high likelihood of accomplishing this while allowing me to provide for my family. I do not want nice cars or watches, but I do want a decent house and to be able to give my children the option to do whatever their passions tell them to do. If this is all I want from medicine am I entering into it naively? If I can make 8k take home a year I would be happy(after paying my loans of course) which at 25-35K a month seems very realistic., I think I am pursuing the right career am I wrong? I will admit PA NP would also accomplish this and would be easier, but I want a challenge and I want to push myself to see how great I can be. I am really interested in some feedback as I have a family and I care more about their happiness than my own. If you want to make the most money possible and win the video game cause you have the most points obv medicine is not for you, but who wants those people to be their doctor.

So 300 to 420 k a year is very realistic to you? There's a thread with mgma data. It may be very helpful to you.

 

[PikminOC]

So I understand the umbrage that premed students have when people come on this thread and talk about poor financial compensation for physicians. You will have likely worked menial jobs in the past getting ready for med school and 240k sounds like a lot of money at the end. I think the idea of these cautionary posts are to explain that medicine is not without its own faults. It's a very highly regulated field and not as fun as the TV shows make it out to be. Most doctors feel underpaid for what they have to do on a day to day basis and for how much they are working. This is hard to explain until you are in their shoes. Most premed and med students have little concept of money and what constitutes a lot or a little. Once you are on this train its hard to get off. These are just other viewpoints to get people to think more.

Yes we've beaten to the death the point that physicians also have a lot of debt to pay off which has been accruing interest. No one is saying a doctor is going to be poor even with debt but it is something to consider on an individual basis because it might mean living frugally for even longer. This is tough when considering where you will be in your life at that point, married with kids possibly.

However, everything is relative. Most doctors are comparing themselves to their peers not to the guy working at McDonalds. You cant take 240k and look at it in a vacuum. Many of their peers are also very intelligent high earning professionals making a lot of money. This is why 240k after 10 years of extra work to get there seems like a poor deal to some in comparison, not to mention debt driving down that take home pay which other people don't have. On top of that the most ideal places to live often are saturated with physicians driving pay down, midlevels trying to do your job drive pay down, government regulating reimbursement, etc.

And yes I understand some medical fields pay a lot more than 240k, but they also require a lot more time to get there and are very competitive in themselves. I'm not talking about the cardiologist or GI doc making 400k here.

Where are you getting numbers like 240 k for average doc? Please look at mgma data. And don't forget tax brackets

 

[efle]

So then why are we telling students to go into other fields with the assumption that they’ll be the top percentile in those fields? We assume that people will get into a top law school, graduate top of their class to earn less than a PCP. Why not do the medicine equivalent and say someone gets into a top 40 medical school, kills Step, matches Derm and does a Mohs fellowship and earns 1 mil a year? The same way you instantly felt the urge to bark back about how hard that is and how unrealistic it is a similar %tile that make it big in law or business. Since the correlary in law is the lawyer making 50-60k a year or the person in middle management making 40-50k a year.

QFT. Every single time this topic comes up, people cherry pick the greenest of grasses on the other side to compare to the low end / primary care in medicine.

If you think being at a top college means a CS major will land you 400k/year at Google in your 20s, you're in for a world of disappointment. In every trustworthy set of data I've seen, the median and upper quartile boundaries for medicine, especially among specialists and especially in lucrative areas, are far above the same boundaries in law, engineering, compsci, etc.

Can the top 1-5% of the others beat the top 1-5% of docs? Sure. But assuming you would've been an outlier in anything else just because you got good grades in college and survived med school, is delusional.

 

[CidHighwind]

But even then there’s plenty of “rich” doctors. Dr Miami for example is a multi billionaire. He didn’t patent some novel surgery or do something amazing like people on SDN pretend you have to do to be rich in medicine. He just went to a competitive market and was really good at his job.

 

[efle]

But even then there’s plenty of “rich” doctors. Dr Miami for example is a multi billionaire. He didn’t patent some novel surgery or do something amazing like people on SDN pretend you have to do to be rich in medicine. He just went to a competitive market and was really good at his job.

Fair point, if you want to compare something apples to apples with the CS majors getting hired and then rapidly promoted at Google, youd need to look at the Mohs guys raking in the cash in busy private practices. When you start comparing average with average and outliers with outliers, suddenly medicine is holding it's own just fine.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Rn's cant get loan repayments too? You cant compare different things.

And yes, the training is very different. Takes more than an extra 4/5th training to become a physician. The competition with med students is amazing.
And you're an M2. Please post more on this thread when you have been practicing medicine for a while after residency.

You could have just said, "I have no argument so I'm going to criticize the fact that you're a student instead." Very weak.

If I can't talk about physician-related things in a premed forum as an M2, then I'd kindly ask you to stifle yourself about nursing-related things, which you previously flippantly brought into discussion. Fair is fair, after all.

 

[PikminOC]

You could have just said, "I have no argument so I'm going to criticize the fact that you're a student instead." Very weak.

If I can't talk about physician-related things in a premed forum as an M2, then I'd kindly ask you to stifle yourself about nursing-related things, which you previously flippantly brought into discussion. Fair is fair, after all.

You did nursing school, and still have a long way in med school, residency, etc. Maybe when you finish you can tell us if 4/5th extra education is right or wrong. You would only know this once you're done. No other way around it.

And being a student is very different from being a physician. Maybe someday you can let us know how things are.

And the argument about paying for loan payoffs vs bonuses is a good one. You cant compare different things.
It's not flippant to bring in nurses, they do have a different skillset from physicians. And NP pay is a relevant part of this discussion.

You also dont know my experience with nursing. You are assuming.

 

[deleted876933]

.

 

[notsobabydoc]

One thing worth noting is getting into medschool is a well establish flowchart and list of check boxes. The entire process has been dissected to the point that there are hundreds of books and an entire industry based on just admissions. This process doesn't require much thought. I would argue that competency in this doesn't mean that you're competent enough to succeed anywhere. This is an incredibly safe path. Something uncommon in many other fields and has likely pushed more people along than they realize. I'd also be interested to see how the GPA comparison holds up between similar majors. Just playing devil's advocate/not culturing egos. I also think a post like this are good to save some people a lot of headaches if money is a motivator and open spots for those who aren't applying for that reason.

From someone who went to top 10 law and top 10 MBA later and worked in BigLaw and BigFIn and made enough to retire by the age of 33, I will say the path to medicine is incredibly scripted and safe. People here complain about post-II acceptance rate being too low. Obviously, they don't know the real world. Getting a job at BigLaw and BigFin is incredibly more difficult than getting into HMS or Hopkins, on a per job basis. You have to apply to like hundreds and thousands and then interview at ten's to almost hundreds to get one job. And you probably have to do that all over again in a couple years. The cycle continues in the real world. Not like they care about leadership, stats or ect. All they care about is whether you will be willing to be a worker bee there to make a ton of money for them.

Also there's no such thing as smallLaw lol. If you don't make it at BigLaw, you are gonna come out of law school with the prospect of making 50K at some dingy job. It's not like the salary goes down gradually. It drops from BigLaw to solo practitioner. Plus, if you don't go to one of the T14's, the chance of making it at BigLaw is minuscule.

If you want to make money, go into law and finance. If you want to be challenged intellectually and don't care that much about making money, medicine is an excellent choice.

 

[premed20172017]

From someone who went to top 10 law and top 10 MBA later and worked in BigLaw and BigFIn and made enough to retire by the age of 33, I will say the path to medicine is incredibly scripted and safe. People here complain about post-II acceptance rate being too low. Obviously, they don't know the real world. Getting a job at BigLaw and BigFin is incredibly more difficult than getting into HMS or Hopkins, on a per job basis. You have to apply to like hundreds and thousands and then interview at ten's to almost hundreds to get one job. And you probably have to do that all over again in a couple years. The cycle continues in the real world. Not like they care about leadership, stats or ect. All they care about is whether you will be willing to be a worker bee there to make a ton of money for them.

Also there's no such thing as Small Law lol. If you don't make it at BigLaw, you are gonna come out of law school with the prospect of making 50K at some dingy job. It's not like the salary goes down gradually. It drops from BigLaw to solo practitioner. Plus, if you don't go to one of the T14's, the chance of making it at BigLaw is minuscule.

If you want to make money, go into law and finance. If you want to be challenged intellectually and don't care that much about making money, medicine is an excellent choice.

In terms of admissions, getting into a T20 med school is WAY more difficult than getting into a T20 law school. I've worked in big law, and have TONS of friends and family in law. Plus, there are NO pre-reqs for law school...

In terms of getting a job in Big Law (specifically), this is false: "You have to apply to like hundreds and thousands." For the vast majority of spots at Big Law firms, you're recruited during school. Schools have on campus interviews so that big firms can meet with students for summer internships and positions post-graduation. While people do still send in applications, many of the positions are filled through recruitment efforts like this.

Also, law isn't only big law. There are Big Law firms, but there are also medium, small, independently run, etc. Coming out of law school, many people want to work at big firms despite the hours in order to make a ton of money quickly. That said, I know people who make a boat load at big firms who are still paying off student loan debt from law school and undergrad.

 

[notsobabydoc]

That's just not true. Getting into a T20 med school is WAY more difficult than getting into a T20 law school. I've worked in big law, and have TONS of friends and family in law. Plus, there are NO pre-reqs for law school...

Also, this is false: "You have to apply to like hundreds and thousands." If you have to apply to "hundreds and thousands," then you OBVIOUSLY didn't go to a T10. If you actually went to law school and/or business school (which I'm not sure about, because you've been trolling...CPM, is that you?), you're recruited during school. Also, law isn't only big law. That's a very naive way to look at things. There are Big Law firms, but there are also medium, small, independently run, etc.

Ok, I've got to stop feeding the trolls, now...

Come on, read my post again! I said BigLaw and BigFin. Don’t pretend you know something. Can’t stand people who just know the world without ever doing any of it. Think whatever you want.

 

[notsobabydoc]

Why is this place filled with presumptuous young people who think they own the world?! I am so confused about this. Premed20172017, you should really go open your mind and understand how things work... ugh seriously. I hope I don’t end up at a place where people like you go to school with me.

 

[notsobabydoc]

This forum is poisoned by those who KNOW IT ALL. Please stop this. If you feel you disagree, learn how to present your argument. Otherwise you will always come across as a sore loser.

 

[RNthenDoc]

You also dont know my experience with nursing. You are assuming.

I can tell that you aren't a nurse based on your posts Re: the profession. You are free to tell me that my assumption is incorrect, but nurses tend to be able to sniff out other nurses. (We're the ones with the back injuries.)

You did nursing school, and still have a long way in med school, residency, etc. Maybe when you finish you can tell us if 4/5th extra education is right or wrong. You would only know this once you're done. No other way around it.

And being a student is very different from being a physician. Maybe someday you can let us know how things are.

And the argument about paying for loan payoffs vs bonuses is a good one. You cant compare different things.
It's not flippant to bring in nurses, they do have a different skillset from physicians. And NP pay is a relevant part of this discussion.

Again, all you've doubled down on is that I must not know what I'm talking about, because I'm a med student. Somehow you simultaneously feel comfortable thinking that you know about nursing without being one, though, which is where your logic is fallacious and embarrassing.
All it says is that you have no argument other than trying to play your trump card, which makes no sense in this context. You may get to push students around in the clinical setting, because that's how the culture of medicine works. You're here on an internet forum for premeds, and your logic is fallacious, so I have no obligation to suffer your lack of critical thinking.

This assumption that being a physician makes you an expert in nursing is patently, completely false. They are different disciplines entirely, and need to work together as a team to promote patient outcomes, not denigrate each other for no other reason than to fluff up egos.

 

[Engrailed]

So many fire responses on this thread. Ppl should use the “ignore” function liberally.

 

[premed20172017]

Come on, read my post again! I said BigLaw and BigFin. Don’t pretend you know something. Can’t stand people who just know the world without ever doing any of it. Think whatever you want.

This forum is poisoned by those who KNOW IT ALL. Please stop this. If you feel you disagree, learn how to present your argument. Otherwise you will always come across as a sore loser.

This forum is poisoned by those who KNOW IT ALL. Please stop this. If you feel you disagree, learn how to present your argument. Otherwise you will always come across as a sore loser.

Please see my revised post...
Good luck to you!

 

[notsobabydoc]

Please see my revised post...
Good luck to you!

Thanks, Midge!

 

[premed20172017]

Thanks, Midge!

Anytime, pride empire state building!

 

[efle]

From someone who went to top 10 law and top 10 MBA later and worked in BigLaw and BigFIn and made enough to retire by the age of 33, I will say the path to medicine is incredibly scripted and safe. People here complain about post-II acceptance rate being too low. Obviously, they don't know the real world. Getting a job at BigLaw and BigFin is incredibly more difficult than getting into HMS or Hopkins, on a per job basis. You have to apply to like hundreds and thousands and then interview at ten's to almost hundreds to get one job. And you probably have to do that all over again in a couple years. The cycle continues in the real world. Not like they care about leadership, stats or ect. All they care about is whether you will be willing to be a worker bee there to make a ton of money for them.

Also there's no such thing as smallLaw lol. If you don't make it at BigLaw, you are gonna come out of law school with the prospect of making 50K at some dingy job. It's not like the salary goes down gradually. It drops from BigLaw to solo practitioner. Plus, if you don't go to one of the T14's, the chance of making it at BigLaw is minuscule.

If you want to make money, go into law and finance. If you want to be challenged intellectually and don't care that much about making money, medicine is an excellent choice.

A google search says the average T10 law graduate is making ~150k starting to ~200k mid career in private sector. How the hell does anybody achieve FIRE with that level income and law school loans, after only ~8 years of working?

 

[notsobabydoc]

A google search says the average T10 law graduate is making ~150k starting to ~200k mid career in private sector. How the hell does anybody achieve FIRE with that level income and law school loans, after only ~8 years of working?

Wall street and free ride at law school... you know, sky is the limit on Wall Street when you manage over 10 billion

 

[efle]

Wall street and free ride at law school...

I feel like the analogous path in medicine would be something like free ride and match derm, where you're in training for a few more years but then also making 400k+ and working a lot less hours to do so.

Every way I try to look at this subject every time it comes up, I still end up with the impression that the safest and most direct route to FIRE by 40 is med school into a lucrative specialty.

 

[notsobabydoc]

I feel like the analogous path in medicine would be something like free ride and match derm, where you're in training for a few more years but then also making 400k+ and working a lot less hours to do so.

Every way I try to look at this subject every time it comes up, I still end up with the impression that the safest and most direct route to FIRE by 40 is med school into a lucrative specialty.

It depends on how you define FIRE. If you want to maintain your lifestyle as a dermatologist, FIRE means 3 million in cash.. at least

 

[efle]

It depends on how you define FIRE. If you want to maintain your lifestyle as a dermatologist, FIRE means 3 million in cash.. at least

For me I think it'd be a pretty mild 50% invested approach, and a target of no debts and 100k annual returns to live on. Pretty hard not to hit that in about a decade of practice if med school was free and I'm in derm or a surgical subspecialty. And, that can be a decade of complete job security as my own boss in private practice, much lower hours than big law, and no issues falling asleep at night over what I make my money doing.

Plus you don't have to stop working completely. Cut back to two days/week and keep living on 200k+? Where do I sign?

Or even go for something like emergency medicine and work 10 days/month from the get-go, and still retire young.

If lifestyle and finances are one's priorities, I have a hard time seeing how medicine is not the way to go, unless the goal is to join the 0.1% and collect yachts. That's the only case I see where Yale law or Wharton business can provide better than Harvard med.

 

[notsobabydoc]

For me I think it'd be a pretty mild 50% invested approach, and a target of no debts and 100k annual returns to live on. Pretty hard not to hit that in about a decade of practice if med school was free and I'm in derm or a surgical subspecialty. And, that can be a decade of complete job security as my own boss in private practice, much lower hours than big law, and no issues falling asleep at night over what I make my money doing.

Plus you don't have to stop working completely. Cut back to two days/week and keep living on 200k+? Where do I sign?

Or even go for something like emergency medicine and work 10 days/month from the get-go, and still retire young.

If lifestyle and finances are one's priorities, I have a hard time seeing how medicine is not the way to go, unless the goal is to join the 0.1% and collect yachts. That's the only case I see where Yale law or Wharton business can provide better than Harvard med.

The key is not to be greedy!