LOR is a way to weed out introverts

[MaenadsDance]

One of my parents is an academic, and he regularly writes letters of recommendation. Professors hate the process just as much as students do; the art of letter-writing, from the prof's point of view, is to convey the mediocrity of the vast majority of their students while at the same time saying nothing but good things about the applicant. An example:

"Student A was among the top 50% of students in his class and demonstrated a consistent work ethic throughout the semester."

Seriously, what did that just say? Student A did the homework and didn't bomb the tests.


The art of getting a good LOR is not to drop in on office hours every now and then, but to do something in the class, or with a professor, that is inherently memorable and interesting. The advantage of going to smaller schools is that it's easy to get to know your profs; last semester I rode the bus every morning with one of my professors, and I'm taking a class this semester with an instructor I had last semester, AND tutoring in the class I took with him a previous semester. These profs are going to know who I am, because they have gotten to know me, my strengths, and my interests.

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[ComradeDoktor]

Removing them from every grad school application process? That seems a bit extreme

Mimelim has a good summary of what people look for, which is more than "red flags". I don't get why people want to get rid of needing LORs completely, it's not like it's rocket science to acquire. I hope people don't complain when they need to get 3 rec letters for residency apps...

I think that's a totally different situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure you get some direct interaction with your attendings in med school. No one expects you to go out of your way to get to know them, you do that just by doing your job. Over my entire undergrad education, I never had a science class taught by a professor that had less that 100 students in it. When I went to office hours, they were always packed with students who had real questions and concerns who had no patience for someone just trying to be social with the prof. There were simply not enough opportunities to get face time with professors.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Science LOR does not have to be someone you took a class with. Also, my point is that you can have someone that you took a class with write a letter, but there should be something else, TAing for them, taking multiple classes, doing research with them etc.

Realize that these aren't BAD letters that people are getting. They are WEAK letters. LOR aren't going to sink you in medical school applications. But, they have the capacity to help you tremendously, primarily because a lot of people think, "did well in class, must be good letter" or "They liked me and will say I'm a nice guy, must be a good letter". You have to use what you can get. My point is that if you see 90% of the threads on here people will say, I have good ECs and good LOR when in reality they have zero clue what a strong letter looks like. Just because someone raves about you doesn't make it a strong letter. I've said it before, but it comes down to 3 things. 1) How well they know you (their credibility) 2) What they can vouch for (What skills or achievements they saw from you) and 3) Who they are (Chairman of department has seen a lot more students in his time than a junior faculty, if you wow him, you are probably someone to look at.

When I read an application, I'm not looking for a LOR to say that the person was nice, strong academically, they work hard, they work well with others etc. I'm looking for what else do they bring to the table. What tangible skills make them superior to the other people with similar scores/grades. Are they a good communicator (exemplified by teaching in any form). Are they a problem solver? Are they a go getter? Are they someone with skill sets that are going to make them valuable members of my medical school class? I could care less if someone thought you were nice. You wouldn't have picked them as a letter writer if that wasn't at least a minimum!



This is what I am talking about. Skills: 1) Ability to recognize (diagnose) a problem - struggling student, 2) Ability to come up with a plan to fix the problem, 3) Confidence and ability to enact that plan 4) Ability to achieve results in this type of problem - other students benefit 5) Shows concern for others AND does something about it (compassion). That is 5 tangible skills that not everyone can demonstrate and have verified by two people. If you collect enough people chiming in about your various skillsets, you will significantly benefit from your LOR.

If this is true, then why are three academic LORs necessary? I am sure that getting letters from physicians or even PhDs researchers who are not academically affiliated with a university would serve just as well.

I don't doubt what you say to be true but those aspects you stated could be described by letter writers outside of academia.

 

[KnuxNole]

I think that's a totally different situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure you get some direct interaction with your attendings in med school. No one expects you to go out of your way to get to know them, you do that just by doing your job. Over my entire undergrad education, I never had a science class taught by a professor that had less that 100 students in it. When I went to office hours, they were always packed with students who had real questions and concerns who had no patience for someone just trying to be social with the prof. There were simply not enough opportunities to get face time with professors.

You definitely do get direct interactions with attendings, and them getting to you know you, seeing you perform, your contributions and interest helps a lot. Clinical years are a good time to make connections with attendings.


Making small talk with them and not seeing it as "phony" helps too. Someone with a similar mentality of the OP might complain that they find no need talking to their attending, and see it as a chore. They would hope that by simply presenting on rounds, answering pimp questions, and nodding their head when the attending is explaining something is enough for LORs. Also, refusing to eat lunch and chat with the senior resident and attending during clinic break(even though they PAY FOR YOUR FOOD...a fellow student did this on one of my rotations!)

 

[pv515]

There is no collaboration or back and forth like you would see in a work environment. The professor lectures or tests, the student listens or answers test questions. I couldn't bring myself to walk into a professor's office and pose questions as a segue into a meaningless personal conversation -- about what, I have no idea because I sure as hell have nothing in common with a 50 year old PhD holder -- for the purpose of a crappy letter of recommendation. The whole setup would have been painfully awkward and stupid.

Read "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

That book will knock you on your ass so hard that you will no longer believe the entire paragraph you just wrote.

Or do what you're doing right now, and see how far you get.

 

[Ashley1989]

There is no collaboration or back and forth like you would see in a work environment. The professor lectures or tests, the student listens or answers test questions. I couldn't bring myself to walk into a professor's office and pose questions as a segue into a meaningless personal conversation -- about what, I have no idea because I sure as hell have nothing in common with a 50 year old PhD holder -- for the purpose of a crappy letter of recommendation. The whole setup would have been painfully awkward and stupid.

What you need to learn to be a good people person is that you either make the effort to FIND something in common to bond over with an otherwise un-relatable person, or sucking it up and realizing that just because you have nothing in common with a person does not make them any less important or worthy of your time or effort. I have found that I can have some of the most meaningful talks with people who I have absolutely nothing in common with because it usually gives me insight into things that I have little to no exposure on.