Low GPA: chances into Carribbean Med School?

[palumacella]

I graduated with a degree in bio (2.78 gpa). I haven't taken the MCAT yet and my ECs are mainly various volunteer activities including hospital patient care. What's an ideal MCAT score to shoot for to get into mid tier Caribbean schools like St. Matthew's, AUA and the like?

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[duopy]

Do NOT go to the Carib. Do a post-bacc and study your ass off for the MCAT. See The Million Dollar Mistake for more info.

Million $ Mistake

 

[efle]

You don't really prepare for the MCAT with a certain score in mind - you just prepare 100% and see how high that puts you. If you score well and do some grade repair, DO is a much better option than Caribbean.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

My parents have no idea what my real gpa is since I lied to their faces that I got a 3.12. And they're forcing me to try to apply for medical school next year. And I don't know if I should tell them the truth or not. I don't

Lol...you lied to your parents and told them a GPA that ALSO would not be competitive?

Well, either tell them the truth, or let them know that your fake GPA isn't competitive either....which is true. Tell them that you need to do a post bac to boost your chances.

Don't go to the Caribbean.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

My parents have no idea what my real gpa is since I lied to their faces that I got a 3.12. And they're forcing me to try to apply for medical school next year. And I don't know if I should tell them the truth or not. I don't

Also, your parents cannot "force" you to apply to med school next year or any year.
Aside from the lie about GPA, the simple response is that even a 3.12 is too low. I would also guess that any LORs you'd get from profs would be lukewarm at best, and that also can be an argument to your parents.

If YOU want to become a physician, you need to step up to the plate, knock a post bac out of the park, and then you'll also have recommenders who actually will want to write glowing LORs about you.

 

[Turkishking]

If medical school is what you want, I suggest retaking C/D/F coursework as a DIY Post bacc. While doing so, I would volunteer at a hospital and one non-clinical volunteer work that you feel passionate about. After completing the coursework, I would study for the MCAT. Take the MCAT. 2 cycles does not work out, prepare an application to the carribean if you still want MD

 

[Goro]

I graduated with a degree in bio (2.78 gpa). I haven't taken the MCAT yet and my ECs are mainly various volunteer activities including hospital patient care. What's an ideal MCAT score to shoot for to get into mid tier Caribbean schools like St. Matthew's, AUA and the like?

How many of these posts are you going to make???

 

[Optimist Prime]

Bro we told you already. We get it that you don't want to let yourself or your parents down and you think you can get out of it by going to a Caribbean me school and they will be proud of you. Do what everyone is telling you to do and work to get into a DO school for a few years or don't go to medical school at all. Your stats show that you are very unlikely to pass boards let alone receive a spot in a residency. How proud do you think your parents will be when you have to tell them 3 years from now that you failed out of medical school with $200k debt that you still have to pay back??? Be a responsible adult and stop trying to find loopholes to avoid responsibility because it will come down on your head in the end.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Your stats show that you are very unlikely to pass boards let alone receive a spot in a residency. How proud do you think your parents will be when you have to tell them 3 years from now that you failed out of medical school with $200k debt that you still have to pay back?

This.

A family friend's son barely made it into a lower tier DO school. He's just failed step 1. I don't really know what happens next as far as the financial impact. Will med school now be 5 years if he eventually passes? No med school is doing anyone any favors by accepting students who are less likely to pass exams.

Is there any data about the delinquent debt from those who dropped out of nonUS med schools or who couldn't get residencies?

 

[palumacella]

Lol...you lied to your parents and told them a GPA that ALSO would not be competitive?

Well, either tell them the truth, or let them know that your fake GPA isn't competitive either....which is true. Tell them that you need to do a post bac to boost your chances.

Don't go to the Caribbean.

How many of these posts are you going to make???

Why does it bother you? If you don't like it, then feel free to comment elsewhere. I'm not obligating you to answer my questions. Good for you that you have your life figured out. Soon I will too but I won't be a jerk to others. Have a nice day.

 

[Goro]

Why does it bother you? If you don't like it, then feel free to comment elsewhere. I'm not obligating you to answer my questions. Good for you that you have your life figured out. Soon I will too but I won't be a jerk to others. Have a nice day.

I'm trying to help you avoid TOS violations....because cross posting is just that.

And posting multiple time hoping to get the answer you want isn't a good strategy either. You should be (and have) been getting the answers you need.

 

[palumacella]

Ok, but you didn't need to get aggressive about it. You could've just said that in the first place. Anyway thanks for looking out for me brother. No hard feelings

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Why does it bother you? If you don't like it, then feel free to comment elsewhere. I'm not obligating you to answer my questions. Good for you that you have your life figured out. Soon I will too but I won't be a jerk to others. Have a nice day.

Why do you have a problem with my posts? You included mine in your response.

 

[Turkishking]

Ok, but you didn't need to get aggressive about it. You could've just said that in the first place. Anyway thanks for looking out for me brother. No hard feelings

That's medicine right there. You need to develop a thick skin. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Skip Intro]

Do NOT go to the Carib. Do a post-bacc and study your ass off for the MCAT. See The Million Dollar Mistake for more info.

Million $ Mistake

Oh brother...

Why does this guy's blog keep getting recirculated? Everyone should know by now that anecdotes don't prove the rule. What's next? Someone going to start posting links to Jenny McCarthy's anti-vaccination website?

-Skip

 

[PreMedMissteps]

That's medicine right there. You need to develop a thick skin. Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, in medicine, but really in real adult life, you need to develop a thick skin. People aren't going to sugarcoat

Oh brother...

Why does this guy's blog keep getting recirculated? Everyone should know by now that anecdotes don't prove the rule. What's next? Someone going to start posting links to Jenny McCarthy's anti-vaccination website?

-Skip

If it were just one anecdote, you might have a point. However, the drop out rate is not anecdotal. And, the matching residencies and numbers are not anecdotal.

There is strong evidence that shows that what Million Dollar Mistake guy experienced is true; that despite high scores, there is a Glass Ceiling that is nearly impossible to break thru for specialties other than primary care, and that's even only if you make it THAT far. And, still many will not match.

 

[Skip Intro]

However, the drop out rate is not anecdotal. And, the matching residencies and numbers are not anecdotal.

Okay, you are speaking "rates". You are saying they are not anecdotal. Fine. What are those rates? Please irrefutably describe something for us - here and now - that I personally have been awaiting validation for at least 16 years now.

There is strong evidence that shows that what Million Dollar Mistake guy experienced is true...

No, there are cobbled-together stories, like his, that other people believe to be true based on whatever impression they seek to reinforce.

... that despite high scores, there is a Glass Ceiling that is nearly impossible to break thru for specialties other than primary care, and that's even only if you make it THAT far. And, still many will not match.

"Nearly impossible..." and "many will not match"... more nebulous qualifiers.

If you know something tangible, spit it out. Please.

-Skip

 

[efle]

Okay, you are speaking "rates". You are saying they are not anecdotal. Fine. What are those rates? Please irrefutably describe something for us - here and now - that I personally have been awaiting validation for at least 16 years now.



No, there are cobbled-together stories, like his, that other people believe to be true based on whatever impression they seek to reinforce.



"Nearly impossible..." and "many will not match"... more nebulous qualifiers.

If you know something tangible, spit it out. Please.

-Skip

Bloomberg cited numbers provided by DeVry, the parent of Ross and AUC, that anywhere from 1/4 to 1/3 or more of its starting class does not earn a degree. Further more, those who completed a degree have about an 85% (at Ross) of getting a residency placement (not match) which means who knows where they wind up. So lets say 70% graduate and 85% of those get a residency slot. That puts your chances at starting medical school, earning a degree, and getting any residency slot, at best 60%.

US schools have a 3% overall attrition rate with a 95% senior placement rate last cycle. So 97% graduate and 95% place in residency for a 92+% success rate of starting medical school, graduating, and getting a residency slot. BTW, the 95% rate was one of the worst in recent cycles, indicating just how tough residencies are becoming. This is likely to affect off shore schools much more. Additionally, virtually all post-match slots (SOAP) go to US grads

see my link for a more detailed calculation of US residency matching numbers. I estimated that of the 19,000+ seniors who initially applied for residency, at most 400 never get a slot after 2-3 cycles, likely under 300. Residency Match

I have posted extensively on this many times, in many ways, using the available numbers and will say that while thousands of Big 4 become doctors, thousands more do not and disappear into debt. That is the issue

DeVry, parent of AUC and Ross has reported to Bloomberg that in the class beginning Fall 2008, attrition rates were 20%-27% for the first two years. They further reported that 66% of AUC and 52% of Ross students finished their program on time. While Ross disputed much of the article, they never disputed these numbers. Bloomberg report on Caribbean medical schools says DeVry on St. Maarten lures US medical school rejects - BearingPoint Caribbean

In addition, in 2013, about 60% of US IMGs from Dominica (where Ross is located) matched. Additionally, while I do not have the chart in front of me (I have posted it previously) there were under 100 SOAP placements for all US IMGs from all schools. Overall, it shows, at best a 60% residency placement for Ross.

if we are generous and say 75% of Ross students eventually get their degree with 60% getting a residency slot
that is a "success" rate of under 50% (ie starting school, earning a degree, and getting any residency slot). As an advisor, I cannot recommend off shore for most students until they exhausted multiple cycles and postbacc, SMP, etc and even then it is large risk
View attachment 221256

Lets add some facts and data to this discussion

In 2013, the latest data that I can quickly access, SGU which is the only school on Grenada had a 67% match rate for US IMGs. During the same year, there was under 2% SOAP placement of US IMG (74 out of 3,745), so at best 70% of SGU class got a residency slot. So if 85% of SGU actually earn a degree, an attrition rate 5 times higher than in US, and 70% get a slot, that is under 60% success rate at best. for US Seniors, success is over 90%.

We, of course, have no way of knowing the residency applicants who get dropped from the rate count with either a withdrawal or a no rank. For US, I calculated in the last year or two, the no match/no rank/withdrawal at 7.9% of the initial NRMP applicant pool. If SOAP is included, that number would fall to about 5%, with that being even further decreased to about 2% when you add in those who get a slot in a subsequent NRMP program. For overall US-IMG, the total NRMP "application failure" rate (ie those who initially applied but did not get any slot) runs at 61%. We know that number is barely affected by SOAP and the US IMG rate includes all applicants, even from previous NRMP cycles. US-IMGs have a NRMP application failure rate at least 8 times worse than US grads and could be considered nearly 30 times worse when compared to all US never get a slot. (see link for numbers http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf#page=23)

View attachment 221288



View attachment 221290

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[efle]

I can't wait to see what @Skip Intro has to say

 

[Shinken]

They've already made up their minds, please don't confuse them with facts.

 

[Skip Intro]

I can't wait to see what @Skip Intro has to say

Yes. What Skip Intro has to say... because we all know that you should base all your life decisions on what people say on an Internet forum.

To wit, many posters come on here and emphatically and repeatedly state you have "less than a 50% chance" of matching if you go to the Caribbean. They then post a litany of "lumped" NRMP data. Even some of the data from a Bloomberg article that you yourself, despite being from an almost 10-year-old report that has been rebutted by DeVry, flies against the oft-reported "facts" on this forum by other posters.

University Facts & Figures

Regardless, we rely on these schools - which was my primary point - to provide this data. It is not validated (my other main point). But, people want to lump all foreign grads (i.e., U.S. permanent residents in foreign programs) based on the NRMP data. It is not "granular" enough for people to provide broad conclusions about all the schools. Many of you want to lump when you need to split.

So, I'm still waiting (go back and read my post again) for validated data from individual schools before anyone here (or elsewhere, including the schools) makes robust and purportedly irrefutable claims.

Between the "big four" schools, there are thousands of licensed, practicing physicians in the U.S. The majority of those who make the decision to attend one of the "big four" schools will succeed somewhere in medicine. It's just not as dire as the "Caribbean bashers" make out here. And, based on even the refuted data you list, you certainly have greater than a 50% chance of succeeding if you go to Ross or SGU (and a few select others).

There's my response. Plan accordingly. It's okay that you missed my point.

-Skip

 

[PreMedMissteps]

@Skip Intro

I am a practicing physician. I successfully navigated my way through the Caribbean. I am not an expert or authority on medical education or residency. Any advice given is intended for informational purposes only and is given without any warranty. Your reliance on it is solely at your own risk. Do not PM me. I will answer questions publicly. Good luck everyone!

What year did you graduate from a Caribbean med school and what is your specialty?

Why did you opt for a Carib med? Did you have grade or MCAT issues? Were you a non-trad?

 

[mcat_taker]

I graduated with a degree in bio (2.78 gpa). I haven't taken the MCAT yet and my ECs are mainly various volunteer activities including hospital patient care. What's an ideal MCAT score to shoot for to get into mid tier Caribbean schools like St. Matthew's, AUA and the like?

Honestly, there is no rush. As a current medical student, I am still amazed at the age range in my class around 24-38. What I really hate seeing on these forums is the fresh faced right out of college student rushing to get into carib schools when they shouldn't really feel pressured to go that route until they are closer to 30. My own advice is to work on your grades and MCAT for a few years. You really shouldn't feel pressured to go to your last choice option until you're at least 26 imo.

My other issue is that no one can tell you where to apply to, because you haven't taken the single most important factor in deciding your med school fate-- THE MCAT. That being said, a low GPA and a low MCAT doesn't do you any favors. Med school doesn't suddenly become easier once you become accepted. You need to prove to yourself first that you can hang.

 

[Skip Intro]

P.S. ...

For anyone who wants to see gonnif's bias on this issue, you can start here reading a prior exchange we had:

Are SGU and Ross still interviewing for Fall semester spots?

-Skip

 

[PreMedMissteps]

@Skip Intro


What year did you graduate from a Caribbean med school and what is your specialty?

Why did you opt for a Carib med? Did you have grade or MCAT issues? Were you a non-trad?

@Skip Intro
When you get a chance, can you please answer the above. And, I'd like to add:

Can you describe the majority of your classmates? Were they non-trads? Were they traditional students who got in with low stats?

At the time you matriculated, how many Carib med schools were there?

 

[PreMedMissteps]

many posters come on here and emphatically and repeatedly state you have "less than a 50% chance" of matching if you go to the Caribbean. They then post a litany of "lumped" NRMP data. Even some of the data from a Bloomberg article that you yourself, despite being from an almost 10-year-old report that has been rebutted by DeVry, flies against the oft-reported "facts" on this forum by other posters.

How many MS1 Caribb students are there in a given year? Or at least what's the avg number in the last 5 years?

How many MS4 Caribb students had a successful Match in 2017? And if you want, 2016?

 

[Skip Intro]

WADR, PreMedMissteps, the information you're asking is already available in this sub-forum if you search. I was challenged to respond to gonnif's cherry-picked and biased view based on my (mostly rhetorical) request for posters who, like yourself, tend to post opinions and anecdotes as "facts" to stop doing so, which was a request that apparently flew over at least one other poster's head.

I think I've accomplished all I need to as of this point in the exchange. Just read that other thread I linked. It answers some of your questions. In the meantime, the other information you ask is out there already. Do a search. I'm happy to affirm or, alternatively, offer a different perspective/answer on whatever you find.

-Skip

 

[PreMedMissteps]

@Skip Intro


What year did you graduate from a Caribbean med school and what is your specialty?

Why did you opt for a Carib med? Did you have grade or MCAT issues? Were you a non-trad?

@Skip Intro

Can you describe the majority of your classmates? Were they non-trads? Were they traditional students who got in with low stats?

At the time you matriculated, how many Carib med schools were there?

Are you saying that you've already answered all of my questions above? If so, in the amount of time you spent typing your last post, you simply could have answered the above.

The fact that you didn't, makes me suspect that you know that your answers will indicate that the climate (and I'm not talking temps) was different when you went, and your cohort was different, and that the current overseas MS1s have a very low chance of making it thru AND having a successful match. Furthermore, those lucky few that do match, will mostly likely be in primary care.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

@Skip Intro


What year did you graduate from a Caribbean med school and what is your specialty?

Why did you opt for a Carib med? Did you have grade or MCAT issues? Were you a non-trad?

@Skip Intro

Can you describe the majority of your classmates? Were they non-trads? Were they traditional students who got in with low stats?

At the time you matriculated, how many Carib med schools were there?

Are you saying that you've already answered all of my questions above? If so, in the amount of time you spent typing your last post, you simply could have answered the above.

The fact that you didn't, makes me suspect that you know that your answers will indicate that the climate (and I'm not talking temps) was different when you went, your cohort was different, and that the current overseas MS1s have a very low chance of making it thru AND having a successful match. Furthermore, those lucky few that do match, will mostly likely be in primary care.

 

[Skip Intro]

You can go back 15 years and read the same arguments that are being fostered and fomented here. Heck, you can go back five years ago and see that many people were predicted by 2016 that there would no more spots for U.S.IMGs based upon the trends. Some even reported articles from JAMA (which was an opinion piece) as "evidence" that this was true and going to happen for certain.

None of that has come to fruition.

But, the "I suspect it's different now" is one of my favorite spurious rebuttals. Do a search. I've been here a long time. Work for it. You'll appreciate it more when you get your own answers or, like others have, try to catch me in a contradiction.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

P.S. ...

... Furthermore, those lucky few that do match, will mostly likely be in primary care.

(1) "Lucky few" is another nebulous descriptor that means nothing. (I think I've successfully answered the challenge, to my mostly rhetorical original response to your post, by linking an extensive prior exchange with gonnif last fall.)

(2) It has always been the case that primary care (FP, categorical IM, peds) is the primary pathway of Carib graduates. Again, your apparent astonishment at this fact (and, yes, that is a "fact", an observation supported by evidence) shows that you have not done enough homework on this forum... which again you're invited to do. No one with any credibility has ever suggested otherwise.

(Work for it. You will appreciate it more. No one is going to spoonfeed you. Especially in the medical profession.)

-Skip

 

[efle]

Yes. What Skip Intro has to say... because we all know that you should base all your life decisions on what people say on an Internet forum.

To wit, many posters come on here and emphatically and repeatedly state you have "less than a 50% chance" of matching if you go to the Caribbean. They then post a litany of "lumped" NRMP data. Even some of the data from a Bloomberg article that you yourself, despite being from an almost 10-year-old report that has been rebutted by DeVry, flies against the oft-reported "facts" on this forum by other posters.

University Facts & Figures

Regardless, we rely on these schools - which was my primary point - to provide this data. It is not validated (my other main point). But, people want to lump all foreign grads (i.e., U.S. permanent residents in foreign programs) based on the NRMP data. It is not "granular" enough for people to provide broad conclusions about all the schools. Many of you want to lump when you need to split.

So, I'm still waiting (go back and read my post again) for validated data from individual schools before anyone here (or elsewhere, including the schools) makes robust and purportedly irrefutable claims.

Between the "big four" schools, there are thousands of licensed, practicing physicians in the U.S. The majority of those who make the decision to attend one of the "big four" schools will succeed somewhere in medicine. It's just not as dire as the "Caribbean bashers" make out here. And, based on even the refuted data you list, you certainly have greater than a 50% chance of succeeding if you go to Ross or SGU (and a few select others).

There's my response. Plan accordingly. It's okay that you missed my point.

-Skip

Two things:

1) As gonnif pointed out in the originally quoted post, they didn't contest the figures of interest that he used. They took issue with several other things like calling the loan system a "loophole" but did not anywhere provide a number to contest that 1/4 to 1/3 do not earn a degree (and then after that 15% that do get the degree fail to get a residency and so on). In fact they hilariously dodge giving a number here, all sorts of other areas they give numbers where they think it helps their case, and yet here all we get is:

• Program completion: Student attrition is an important issue. Most attrition at Ross occurs in the first year of study, before students who are taking loans accumulate a large debt load. We're concerned about attrition and work to make sure our students receive the support they need to succeed; but while it's an issue, we will never sacrifice academic quality to show a higher graduation rate.

2) 40%+ of people failing to clear some hurdle or another along the way and having large debts to show for it, even at some of the "best" options, is enough to justify the dire warnings that you get as a knee-jerk on SDN in my opinion. Maybe this is just a difference of opinion. For me personally "most" (like 50-something percent) is not the threshold at which wagering years and massive debt becomes a good, reasonable idea.

Again, gonnif and others that caution against this route always do include the fact that yes, thousands of people do go on to become practicing physicians in the US from this pathway. It's ignorant or disingenuous to say Caribbean spells doom, but it's just as bad to pretend the warnings against Caribbean are unwarranted. I'm sure you're proud of the individual-school-data defense because you know that such data will never be publically available, so you can never be proven wrong using data from the source itself at a fine-grained level. Anyone with half a brain reading these kinds of exchanges will see how weak a defense that is.

 

[Goro]

And, as I have to keep on pointing out:

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

 

[Skip Intro]

Gonnif massages the data to serve his anti-Caribbean bias agenda. (Read the other thread.)

It's ignorant or disingenuous to say Caribbean spells doom, but it's just as bad to pretend the warnings against Caribbean are unwarranted.

First part of this sentence correct. Second part... I am baffled that your position seems to be that most of us - apparently myself included - have "pretended" that the "warnings" against this pathway are "unwarranted", or that we've somehow diminished the substantial risk in time, blood, sweat, and treasure in going this pathway that the matriculant undertakes. Nowhere on this forum have I ever done that and I challenge you to find an instance where I have.

So, let me state it as clearly as I can - again and despite innumerable times doing so in the past - right now: going to a Caribbean school should be a last resort for students seeking a medical degree along with the opportunity to enjoy a career in medicine in the United States or Canada.

There. Happy?

I'm sure you're proud of the individual-school-data defense because you know that such data will never be publically available, so you can never be proven wrong using data from the source itself at a fine-grained level. Anyone with half a brain reading these kinds of exchanges will see how weak a defense that is.

Again, I would be delighted - as I've also said innumerable times on this (and other) forums - if the schools would be more transparent. There was legislation proposed a few years back that would make FFEL loans contingent on providing such data. Don't underestimate the power of DeVry (who purchased the school while I was there) and other lobbyists in killing such legislation. I am not defending their actions. I think it is unconscionable that they hide behind their "offshore" status as a means to circumvent this transparency.

But, I am also equally against conjecture, innuendo, anecdotes, and otherwise worst case scenarios being offered as the "standard, expected pathway" if you choose to go to one of the reputable, established schools. People love stories about the unfortunate victim of a gruesome and disfiguring shark attack. But, you are much more like to suffer permanent injury from a slip and fall in your bathtub. That is a verifiable fact. And, that's all I want: verifiable facts. Not hot-breathed anecdotal horror stories or manipulated speculation based on scant data.

You either believe gonnif, whose argument I dismantled nearly a year ago on another thread, or you believe the schools, who owe us more transparency because our tax dollars are, in part, helping to secure low interest loans for their students! What I don't believe is some unverifiable and likely embellished blog post from a former, current, or disgruntled student/graduate. And, neither should anyone else.

Aside from that, don't over-interpret what I say, make assumptions about what I think, or put words in mouth. Read what I write. Try to understand it. And don't project your own biases onto it. I've really got no dog in this fight. I'm a successful graduate. And I just want the truth.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

And, as I have to keep on pointing out:

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

Is that a question? Are you asking me?

The answer to that is: zero. I have faced zero "obstacles" (whatever that even means).

-Skip

 

[Goro]

Is that a question? Are you asking me?

The answer to that is: zero. I have faced zero "obstacles" (whatever that even means).

-Skip

I applaud you on your success, but you're in the class of Lotto winners. I am not attack Carib grads m but the predatory schools that take such advantage of desperate and gullible people.

 

[efle]

Gonnif massages the data to serve his anti-Caribbean bias agenda. (Read the other thread.)



First part of this sentence correct. Second part... I am baffled that your position seems to be that most of us - apparently myself included - have "pretended" that the "warnings" against this pathway are "unwarranted", or that we've somehow diminished the substantial risk in time, blood, sweat, and treasure in going this pathway that the matriculant undertakes. Nowhere on this forum have I ever done that and I challenge you to find an instance where I have.

So, let me state it as clearly as I can - again and despite innumerable times doing so in the past - right now: going to a Caribbean school should be a last resort for students seeking a medical degree along with the opportunity to enjoy a career in medicine in the United States or Canada.

There. Happy?



Again, I would be delighted - as I've also said innumerable times on this (and other) forums - if the schools would be more transparent. There was legislation proposed a few years back that would make FFEL loans contingent on providing such data. Don't underestimate the power of DeVry (who purchased the school while I was there) and other lobbyists in killing such legislation. I am not defending their actions. I think it is unconscionable that they hide behind their "offshore" status as a means to circumvent this transparency.

But, I am also equally against conjecture, innuendo, anecdotes, and otherwise worst case scenarios being offered as the "standard, expected pathway" if you choose to go to one of the reputable, established schools. People love stories about the unfortunate victim of a gruesome and disfiguring shark attack. But, you are much more like to suffer permanent injury from a slip and fall in your bathtub. That is a verifiable fact. And, that's all I want: verifiable facts. Not hot-breathed anecdotal horror stories or manipulated speculation based on scant data.

You either believe gonnif, whose argument I dismantled nearly a year ago on another thread, or you believe the schools, who owe us more transparency because our tax dollars are, in part, helping to secure low interest loans for their students! What I don't believe is some unverifiable and likely embellished blog post from a former, current, or disgruntled student/graduate. And, neither should anyone else.

Aside from that, don't over-interpret what I say, make assumptions about what I think, or put words in mouth. Read what I write. Try to understand it. And don't project your own biases onto it. I've really got no dog in this fight. I'm a successful graduate. And I just want the truth.

-Skip

The fact you've never put "I defend Carib as an option" in writing in those words, doesn't mean you aren't doing it. Start qualifying your posts with "While it's true even the strongest Carib schools have 40%+ walking away with debt and nothing else..." the way gonnif qualifies about thousands of successful grads and the forums will be better for posterity

 

[Skip Intro]

I applaud you on your success, but you're in the class of Lotto winners. I am not attack Carib grads m but the predatory schools that take such advantage of desperate and gullible people.

I've been practicing for 8 years now. I've seen just about ever clinical presentation. My practice involves, among other things, counseling patients on smoking cessation, alternatives to narcotics, risks and benefits of epidural anesthesia for labor & delivery... and numerous other things.

What I've learned, as a board-certified and independently licensed physician, that it is incumbent upon me to provide the best, most factual information to the patient so they can make their decision. But, it is their decision. If I lie because I've either up-played or downplayed a particular risk because I'm trying to manipulate them into making the choice I want them to make, then I've failed them in my fiduciary responsibility.

This isn't personal. Despite what it may appear to the casual observer. However, you see it as taking "advantage of desperate and gullible people", emotionally-laden language, whereas I'm not invested in their decision. Just the truth.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

The fact you've never put "I defend Carib as an option" in writing in those words, doesn't mean you aren't doing it. (sic)

Man, you really want to tell me what I think, don't you?

I think I know what I mean. And, so do most others.

-Skip

 

[Goro]

And I will point out that if any mainland med school had the attrition and placement rates of any Carib school, they would be shut down by LCME.

 

[Skip Intro]

And I will point out that if any mainland med school had the attrition and placement rates of any Carib school, they would be shut down by LCME.

Which attrition rates? The ones speculated on here on this forum? Or, the ones reported by the schools? Which are true?

I've already argued that (1) we need more transparency and (2) don't underestimate the power of a large corporation to "get their way" in the U.S. Fact is, Ross and SGU (and a few others) serve a need, namely getting doctors trained to take primary care positions that many other U.S. grads don't want or aren't interested in. So, blind eyes are turned by some.

As I said, I'm not emotionally invested in personal decisions of individuals. But, informed consent? As best as I can provide it.

-Skip

 

[Goro]

Which attrition rates? The ones speculated on here on this forum? Or, the ones reported by the schools? Which are true?

I've already argued that (1) we need more transparency and (2) don't underestimate the power of a large corporation to "get their way" in the U.S. Fact is, Ross and SGU (and a few others) serve a need, namely getting doctors trained to take primary care positions that many other U.S. grads don't want or aren't interested in. So, blind eyes are turned by some.

As I said, I'm not emotionally invested in personal decisions of individuals. But, informed consent? As best as I can provide it.

-Skip

The ones shown in NRMP.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

Wait so im confused.....a while back the argus stood with the NRMP like it was his first born and now another successful caribbean grad is telling me to ignore it.....hmmmm............

 

[Skip Intro]

Wait so im confused.....a while back the argus stood with the NRMP like it was his first born and now another successful caribbean grad is telling me to ignore it.....hmmmm............

What?

-Skip

 

[ill be a doc soon]

I graduated with a degree in bio (2.78 gpa). I haven't taken the MCAT yet and my ECs are mainly various volunteer activities including hospital patient care. What's an ideal MCAT score to shoot for to get into mid tier Caribbean schools like St. Matthew's, AUA and the like?

I think if you get a 527 you should get atleast MERPed at Ross

 

[mcat_taker]

Wait so im confused.....a while back the argus stood with the NRMP like it was his first born and now another successful caribbean grad is telling me to ignore it.....hmmmm............

Did you miss the post where skip intro specifically mentions how the NRMP data lumps all caribbean schools and IMGs together which is misleading as some programs are much more reputable than others (as there are hundreds of caribbean schools, this makes sense)? Or are you just trying to attack him blindly no matter what.

@efle I'm not sure why you are so up in arms. The caribbean pathway is a business, they give people a chance. That means they let in some people who unfortunately shouldn't be there, and those people probably wouldn't be successful at any med school, but they give them an opportunity.

I also get annoyed on here when premeds like yourself act like they know everything about match outcomes and academic quality of various institutions. Start medical school first before you start lecturing the rest of us.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

Did you miss the post where skip intro specifically mentions how the NRMP data lumps all caribbean schools and IMGs together which is misleading as some programs are much more reputable than others (as there are hundreds of caribbean schools, this makes sense)? Or are you just trying to attack him blindly no matter what.

@efle I'm not sure why you are so up in arms. The caribbean pathway is a business, they give people a chance. That means they let in some people who unfortunately shouldn't be there, and those people probably wouldn't be successful at any med school, but they give them an opportunity.

I also get annoyed on here when premeds like yourself act like they know everything about match outcomes and academic quality of various institutions. Start medical school first before you start lecturing the rest of us.

Who me? im in school

 

[mcat_taker]

Who me? im in school

Not you haha. I was talking about efle

 

[efle]

Did you miss the post where skip intro specifically mentions how the NRMP data lumps all caribbean schools and IMGs together which is misleading as some programs are much more reputable than others (as there are hundreds of caribbean schools, this makes sense)? Or are you just trying to attack him blindly no matter what.

@efle I'm not sure why you are so up in arms. The caribbean pathway is a business, they give people a chance. That means they let in some people who unfortunately shouldn't be there, and those people probably wouldn't be successful at any med school, but they give them an opportunity.

I also get annoyed on here when premeds like yourself act like they know everything about match outcomes and academic quality of various institutions. Start medical school first before you start lecturing the rest of us.

It's a predatory business for a big chunk of the population in my opinion, and again I always try to keep it part of the discussion that people do succeed, but that the warnings and negative SDN attitude are justified.

Nothing makes you look like an idiot quite like playing the "I'm ahead of you in the pathway" card on a topic that isn't a part of medical education.

 

[efle]

Man, you really want to tell me what I think, don't you?

I think I know what I mean. And, so do most others.

-Skip

Perhaps what you put down doesn't communicate the position you think it does, if you think of yourself as not defensive of the school.

And to your question about what numbers, I say the numbers that Bloomberg requested and reported on and which the school then dodged providing and did not contest.