Low post bacc GPA due to suicidal friend...What to do?

[attainmydream21]

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I'm currently enrolled in the Interdisciplinary Health Sciences Post-bacc program at Drexel University. I have some research and clinical experience, but haven't done it since 2013. I plan on resuming both next semester. Additionally, I plan on taking the new MCAT. Below are my current stats:

1) My cumulative undergraduate GPA: 3.38
2) My cumulative undergraduate science GPA: 3.3
3) My current MCAT scores : 14N (2011) and 19 (2014)
4) My first semester at Drexel University:
Biochemistry 4 creditis-----B+
Graduate Pharmacology 3 credits----C+
Embryology 3 credits----C
Biostatistics 3 credits-----A

I was dealing with a personal situation with a former friend who was suicidal and it resulted in me failing an exam which knocked me on my ass with my other courses. My grad GPA is currently under 3.0 and I might be placed on academic probation. I want to remain in the program to bring my cumulative GPA up, but I feel I've messed my chances at both MD and DO schools. I've been told that having a sub 3.0 GPA at this level is the kiss of death. My goal was to apply for 2016, but not sure if I should. I would sincerely appreciate any suggestions, advice, or points of concern.
Thanks!

 

[ChrisGriffen]

I'm currently enrolled in the Interdisciplinary Health Sciences Post-bacc program at Drexel University. I have some research and clinical experience, but haven't done it since 2013. I plan on resuming both next semester. Additionally, I plan on taking the new MCAT. Below are my current stats:

1) My cumulative undergraduate GPA: 3.38
2) My cumulative undergraduate science GPA: 3.3
3) My current MCAT scores : 14N (2011) and 19 (2014)
4) My first semester at Drexel University:
Biochemistry 4 creditis-----B+
Graduate Pharmacology 3 credits----C+
Embryology 3 credits----C
Biostatistics 3 credits-----A

I was dealing with a personal situation with a former friend who was suicidal and it resulted in me failing an exam which knocked me on my ass with my other courses. My grad GPA is currently under 3.0 and I might be placed on academic probation. I want to remain in the program to bring my cumulative GPA up, but I feel I've messed my chances at both MD and DO schools. I've been told that having a sub 3.0 GPA at this level is the kiss of death. My goal was to apply for 2016, but not sure if I should. I would sincerely appreciate any suggestions, advice, or points of concern.
Thanks!

Points of concern--> an MCAT under 20 paired with a sub 3.0 grad GPA are going to keep you out of all US MD/DO schools and most/all Carib schools.

You need to fix both.

 

[attainmydream21]

Points of concern--> an MCAT under 20 paired with a sub 3.0 grad GPA are going to keep you out of all US MD/DO schools and most/all Carib schools.

You need to fix both.

Thanks for the response and advice! So, if I bring my graduate GPA up to a 3.3-3.4 by next semester ( assuming I get a 4.0 with 12 credits), get a great MCAT score, resume my clinical and research experience, should I still apply for 2016 entry or shoot for 2017?

 

[Jamie561]

Thanks for the response and advice! So, if I bring my graduate GPA up to a 3.3-3.4 by next semester ( assuming I get a 4.0 with 12 credits), get a great MCAT score, resume my clinical and research experience, should I still apply for 2016 entry or shoot for 2017?

I'd shoot for 2017 or later even. MD is 99% out of the question based on your ugpa

 

[jl lin]

[4) My first semester at Drexel University:
Biochemistry 4 creditis-----B+
Graduate Pharmacology 3 credits----C+
Embryology 3 credits----C
Biostatistics 3 credits-----A]

I know you said you were dealing with a friend and suicidal issues, but wow. IDK. Probably the most challenging thing there is biochem. Plus the other courses were only 3 credits. Hmm. Could have dropped one while you were in the throes of trouble with the friend? Did you speak to someone there about the situation?

Plus, why in the world did you take the MCAT before you were ready? I am not trying to be another downer on you. I am just confused.

Also, as people/professionals that want to help others, we still have learn that there is a place where we have to draw the line--that is where our ability to help the other person is met with diminishing returns. I am not a harsh person. I am caring; but honestly the other person needed to be handed over to professionals and close family, if at all possible. If the person resists taking or staying in a place that can really help them, it's heartbreaking, but there is a limit as to what you can do. I mean it's really hard to even make such comments without knowing all the particulars and details, so again, I am not trying to seem harsh. What happens if this person goes into this mode again--or someone else. No one is saying be a self-centered XYZ. But it's hard to watch people self-destruct--especially after you have done everything you can for them. Boundaries and not enabling people are real things too. I'm not saying that's what happened with you. I don't know. Bottom line is balance. It doesn't help the other person if you do all you can, they resist doing whatever they can to help themselves, and then your stuff falls apart. Life is just very hard to balance sometimes. Can you talk with someone at Drexel. I had a challenging issue or two--nothing that was way out of control--but was stuff that I personally couldn't control. While I didn't get a break cut on my work, they understood when I had to attend a close family member's funeral way out of state, for example. I am a graduate of Drexel, and my experiences there were great overall. I am not, however, very knowledgeable about the program you are in there. I went there for undergrad. Any openness from them for repeat of Embryo and Pharm?

Geez, I wish I had more to offer. Please reach out to the right people over there. Take your time, and do the process right. That's the key. If you rush things, like your school work and MCAT, you can totally screw yourself big time. Hoping the best for you!

 

[Eppur Si Muove]

That MCAT is a real killer man. Not sure how in the game you will be with two scores under 20

 

[attainmydream21]

Just to provide some perspective... I forgot to mention that I'm an URM - not to say I'll get a pass on my abysmal scores.

In regards to my former friend, she also attends the IHS program. At the beginning of the semester myself and another friend of mine started to notice a shift in her attitude. She later told us she had allegedly been in a verbally abusive relationship ( with another guy who also attends the program -crazy I know). She also told us she had started to starve herself and was feeling trapped - which prompted her to ponder suicidal thoughts. We spent an entire day making sure she wrote a report with Drexel's security. My other friend I, finally convinced her to seek professional help and she did but took a situation where she had ignored us in public for her to get a clue. Long story short, our friendship has since dissolved due to her excesses ( the self-centeredness, the constant mood changes, the attitude; she basically became the verbal abuser - in a midst of an argument she said I was worse than her abuser and that her abuser was right about me "not being her friend". Lo and behold she went back to her "abuser". Sooo, I'm left with a sub 3.0 GPA result and a very expensive lesson learned. I wanted to address this to my advisor at Drexel and to adcoms, but I feel it would make me look petty, immature and downright unable to handle personal issues.

Thanks again for all of the advice!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

2 MCATs below 20, which you'll probably say are "flukes" or "forgot to study... twice," below 3.0 "because of a friend," etc. You're not a viable candidate. SDN as usual will suggest a million grade replacements and retaking the MCAT and letting time pass, but I think what you need to hear and do is to get into another career.

 

[attainmydream21]

2 MCATs below 20, which you'll probably say are "flukes" or "forgot to study... twice," below 3.0 "because of a friend," etc. You're not a viable candidate. SDN as usual will suggest a million grade replacements and retaking the MCAT and letting time pass, but I think what you need to hear and do is to get into another career.

And what career(s) would you recommend?

 

[AM508]

Man, a 14 and a 19 on the MCAT are going to be very very hard to overcome. I don't know as a retake can salvage that :\

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

And what career(s) would you recommend?

I don't know you to be able to say. I just know enough about numbers to get into schools and the competition to be able to give you an honest assessment. If you're still interested in health care, maybe making your way into NP or do something like Respiratory Therapy.

 

[attainmydream21]

The 14 is an outdated score...I took it in 2011. The 19 (PS 8, VR 2, BS 9) I took this past summer, is definitely the killer. Would podiatry be another viable option?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The 14 is an outdated score...I took it in 2011. The 19 (PS 8, VR 2, BS 9) I took this past summer, is definitely the killer. Would podiatry be another viable option?

Maybe a program would accept you. I don't know much about admissions for them except that they have low MCAT scores, but I will tell you that the podiatry students at my school have to take the same classes as us. It's not easy by any means, but I do think it is a great career for those that like it. A mix of clinic and surgery can make it a nice practice environment.

 

[applydon]

The 14 is an outdated score...I took it in 2011. The 19 (PS 8, VR 2, BS 9) I took this past summer, is definitely the killer. Would podiatry be another viable option?

Is English your second language? You got 2 in VR means you did not understand the essays completely.

 

[attainmydream21]

No English is not my 2nd language. I don't understand what happened. I was scoring between 6-8 on the practice tests...

 

[attainmydream21]

Maybe a program would accept you. I don't know much about admissions for them except that they have low MCAT scores, but I will tell you that the podiatry students at my school have to take the same classes as us. It's not easy by any means, but I do think it is a great career for those that like it. A mix of clinic and surgery can make it a nice practice environment.

Maybe I should look into shadowing one and gain greater insight...Should I even bother continuing the program?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Maybe I should look into shadowing one and gain greater insight...Should I even bother continuing the program?

Yes, I don't think it'll look good to give up. Resilience matters.

 

[jl lin]

No English is not my 2nd language. I don't understand what happened. I was scoring between 6-8 on the practice tests...

I'm confused on the verbal also. Go to Drexel's main campus and get a tutor ASAP.

 

[attainmydream21]

Thanks guys for replies! So there's NO way for me to fix this? Even if I bring my graduate GPA up to a 3.6-3.7 or get an outstanding MCAT score? Should I tell my adviser about my situation?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I

Thanks guys for replies! So there's NO way for me to fix this? Even if I bring my graduate GPA up to a 3.6-3.7 or get an outstanding MCAT score? Should I tell my adviser about my situation?

It's not that there isn't. There's always that great exception, but many people get caught up in that because they can't accept they are part of the rule. It's the same MO that keeps gamblers at the black jack table. After 2 low MCAT and disastrous GPA, where is the line for you to say "I gave it my best, and now it's time to open up to alternatives?"

 

[attainmydream21]

One thing I know is that GPA is not a reflection of my potential. The courses weren't that difficult, it's just that one failed exam set things into motion. I'll also admit my biggest weakness is my test taking skills. I'm just going to give it just one last shot. If it doesn't work out I'll make the appropriate changes. What you all have advised me isn't anything I don't already know, but it's great hearing other's opinions on the matter. If I'm able to secure an interview, I'll definitely address the matter. Thanks again!

 

[Goro]

We still see every score you ever made, outdated or not.
A native English speaker getting the same score for what would essentially writing your name on the exam and walking away raises alarms. Being URM isn't going to help you with two such poor scores; we'd be doing you no favors by admitting you and then having you drop out. A poor MCAT is a risk factor for doing exactly that, or failing Boards.
The 14 is an outdated score...I took it in 2011. The 19 (PS 8, VR 2, BS 9) I took this past summer, is definitely the killer. Would podiatry be another viable option?

IF you did another post-bac AND rocked the MCAT (>30 or the equivalent on the new exam), then yes, you may have some luck with DO schools. Not all schools average scores (kiss of death for you) and so the latest, best score would help....assuming you can do it.

Other medical careers to consider would be podiatry, nursing, respiratory or physical or occupational therapists, clinical lab techs, surgical techs, maybe psychology. I can't recommend PA because their programs can be as rigorous as medical school. I know this because I have taught PA students in the past.

Strongly suggest that you do consider other careers.

 

[attainmydream21]

So my chances at an MD school is non-existent?

 

[67552931811]

Yes.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Is English your second language? You got 2 in VR means you did not understand the essays completely.

I suggest you take a look at the MCAT forums more. There have been cases of people with VR 3 scores retaking and getting VR 10 scores (yes these guys studied the first time). The verbal section can be more random than the PS or BS sections. Some ESL guys who did poorly before just studied former exams and were able to pull double digits. I would not be too obsessed with that VR of 2.

 

[medickdb]

So my chances at an MD school is non-existent?

Absolutely.

I know it's not something anyone wants to hear, but it's the cold, hard truth. You would be wasting both time and money applying. DO may be an option in the future, but with those MCAT scores, it is not at present. MD is 99.9% off the table. Unfortunately, those schools don't care as much about reinvention. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just the way they do business.

I highly recommend you take Goro's advice. Find a career elsewhere in healthcare, at least for now. That doesn't mean medical school is completely off the table, but it would give you further perspective, education, and experience. Down the road, you can retake the MCAT once more if you feel like medical school is where you feel like you need to end up. Who knows? You may like the new road.

Look, I get it. I had a 2.7 GPA at one point. I was devastated. But, I worked at it. I gained a lot of good education and experience in another medical profession that is proving invaluable in medical school.

If you simply want money, there are other careers. If you love medicine, you don't need to be a doctor to show it, especially at this moment.

 

[Goro]

At this point in time, yes. You have some serious deficits to fix.

So my chances at an MD school is non-existent?

 

[attainmydream21]

Wow. That is a tough and bitter pill to swallow. Life other than being a doctor? I just couldn't picture anything but being one. I was going to look into nursing, but I know deep down that was not my heart was. I don't want to pursue something that is not in my heart.

I'm finding hard to believe that not even even HBCUs would take me. After all, they have lower standards. If I do extremely well on the new MCAT, bring my GPA up, I don't understand why that would take out of consideration.

 

[chemguy79]

Frankly, there are too many "if's" in your plan of attack to believe that MD programs will be possible. Let's look at the current situation.

1. You have a semester in a post-bac program with a GPA below a 3.0.
2. Two attempts at a MCAT that were below 20 (including a VR score of 2).
3. An undergraduate science GPA that's marginal for applicants, URM or otherwise.

IMO, you have not established a track record of a student who will be successful in medical school. Therefore, I don't believe that one semester in a post-bac with a GPA above 3.5 would show an MDAdCom anything otherwise. Your post-bac program was your final opportunity for success and I believe that you have shut the door for future opportunities.

 

[attainmydream21]

Frankly, there are too many "if's" in your plan of attack to believe that MD programs will be possible. Let's look at the current situation.

1. You have a semester in a post-bac program with a GPA below a 3.0.
2. Two attempts at a MCAT that were below 20 (including a VR score of 2).
3. An undergraduate science GPA that's marginal for applicants, URM or otherwise.

IMO, you have not established a track record of a student who will be successful in medical school. Therefore, I don't believe that one semester in a post-bac with a GPA above 3.5 would show an MDAdCom anything otherwise. Your post-bac program was your final opportunity for success and I believe that you have shut the door for future opportunities.

But wouldn't adcoms look at the improvement over the course of 4 semesters? Me starting below a 3.0 and gradually building up to cumulative 3.7 GPA with a stellar MCAT score, shows I'm human and capable of bouncing back. Granted, this has thrown a massive wrench in my plans for applying for 2016, but all hope is not lost.

 

[TopTomato]

But wouldn't adcoms look at the improvement over the course of 4 semesters? Me starting below a 3.0 and gradually building up to cumulative 3.7 GPA with a stellar MCAT score, shows I'm human and capable of bouncing back.

Sure it shows that you're capable of bouncing back, however there are some schools like Goro said that average the tests together. Also schools take into consideration that you only have one shot at the USMLE/COMLEX. Unfortunately you severely under performed twice. It would be a different story if you took the MCAT twice and scored maybe a 24 and 25 and on the third time you score 30+

 

[chemguy79]

But wouldn't adcoms look at the improvement over the course of 4 semesters? Me starting below a 3.0 and gradually building up to cumulative 3.7 GPA with a stellar MCAT score, shows I'm human and capable of bouncing back.

At this point, you haven't shown that either of those are within the realm of possibility. I don't think that it is reasonable to plan on achieving academic success when you haven't shown such success previously.

 

[Goro]

100% agree. Don't count on the URM card to rescue you if you have too many red flags that indicate a high risk to fail out of medical school, as elucidated below. I would add two more: lack of good coping skills, and a record of poor choice making.

Exactly what community do you represent?

Frankly, there are too many "if's" in your plan of attack to believe that MD programs will be possible. Let's look at the current situation.

1. You have a semester in a post-bac program with a GPA below a 3.0.
2. Two attempts at a MCAT that were below 20 (including a VR score of 2).
3. An undergraduate science GPA that's marginal for applicants, URM or otherwise.

IMO, you have not established a track record of a student who will be successful in medical school. Therefore, I don't believe that one semester in a post-bac with a GPA above 3.5 would show an MDAdCom anything otherwise. Your post-bac program was your final opportunity for success and I believe that you have shut the door for future opportunities.

 

[attainmydream21]

Ohhhh! The lightbulb just went off! I completely overlooked what Goro had written - Most schools average the scores of their applicants! Funny thing, is my Alma Mater does the same.

Soooo I've been beating a dead horse, pretty much.

 

[TopTomato]

100% agree. Don't count on the URM card to rescue you if you have too many red flags that indicate a high risk to fail out of medical school, as elucidated below. I would add two more: lack of good coping skills, and a record of poor choice making.

Exactly what community do you represent?

Goro makes a good point. This is coming from a URM.

 

[attainmydream21]

Goro, I'm an African American male. Also, can you elaborate on why you feel I lack good coping skills? Just curious.

 

[Goro]

No medical school in the world will be doing you any favors by admitting you and then having you drop out.

If you think you can success in medical school, prove it. Words are easy, doing is hard. this will be a marathon, not a sprint, but I still suggest other venues.

Goro, I'm an African American male.

 

[attainmydream21]

Also, can you elaborate on why you feel I lack good coping skills? Just curious. If you were an admissions counselor, is this what you would think of me as an applicant?

 

[IslandStyle808]

Also, can you elaborate on why you feel I lack good coping skills? Just curious. If you were an admissions counselor, is this what you would think of me as an applicant?

I think what Goro and the others are trying to say here is that you are not able to cope with death or tragedy, while doing well academically. Physicians have to deal with dying family members and friends throughout their lives and it can't affect their judgement when practicing. If you don't have the ability to know how to perform well in the face of a tragedy, then you won't do well both in medical school and as a physician.

It doesn't mean that this type of incident strikes a physician different from yourself, it can be just as hurtful. However, to be able to cope and do well in life, even in the mist of tragedy, is what's need to be excellent not only in medicine, but other fields as well.

 

[Goro]

Having a suicidal friend cratered your post-bac performance. As medical school is much harder, I fear that you would have failed out, not merely seen your GPA dive down. Medical school is a crucible...one has to be a bit selfish as a student.

Also, can you elaborate on why you feel I lack good coping skills? Just curious. If you were an admissions counselor, is this what you would think of me as an applicant?

 

[jl lin]

Man, a 14 and a 19 on the MCAT are going to be very very hard to overcome. I don't know as a retake can salvage that :\

Yea, even if OP could get a 40 next time (well, the scales have changed), the average would only be ~ 24. Oy veh.

 

[jl lin]

I suggest you take a look at the MCAT forums more. There have been cases of people with VR 3 scores retaking and getting VR 10 scores (yes these guys studied the first time). The verbal section can be more random than the PS or BS sections. Some ESL guys who did poorly before just studied former exams and were able to pull double digits. I would not be too obsessed with that VR of 2.

Sorry. I have to disagree here. In general, it's not about the content for verbal--it could be on anything. It's how well you comprehend, analyze, and apply. Scoring low on verbal is a huge deal.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Closing as cross posted in WAMC. Users who wish to can post there.