Lurking Beloww: Sea Monsters Sign Ups and Game Thread

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Stagg737 said:
If you weren't able to put your night cancellation through then it would have been you. But since you were able to do it
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Things I hope to be able to do someday:

Fake-claim night cancel
the day before lylo
when I have a wolfy lynch avoidance at my disposal.

WW goals, continued.
 
PippyPony said:
Things I hope to be able to do someday:

Fake-claim night cancel
the day before lylo
when I have a wolfy lynch avoidance at my disposal.

WW goals, continued.
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You just need to learn how to claim to be a wolf who will seer as wolf but is not actually a wolf.

Or how to convert people at the exact moment they seer you.

Or how to do a car escape.

Or while another player is silenced and it is a mafia game, claim to be a mafia snitch who knows the mafia members (wolves) but can't outwardly say who they might be, but one of them may or may not be silenced... to get silenced villager lynched and win the game.

You know, good times. 🙂
 
Well I didn't like that lynch. Probably going to vote for someone on that genny train... Or allie who took her vote away last second.

Night cancel is probably village - has anyone seen it be wolfy. I'm not a fan of pips pushing the genny lynch today, but her ability seems village enough.. I always vote based on ability over analysis and it usually screws me. But analysis says I should lynch pips.
 
SnowshoeDog143 said:
Well I didn't like that lynch. Probably going to vote for someone on that genny train... Or allie who took her vote away last second.

Night cancel is probably village - has anyone seen it be wolfy. I'm not a fan of pips pushing the genny lynch today, but her ability seems village enough.. I always vote based on ability over analysis and it usually screws me. But analysis says I should lynch pips.
Click to expand...
So what is stopping you? You've been talking about me being sketchy for days now, but you're pulling punches.

Although if "analysis" is telling you I would push something that hard as a wolf, you may need to recalibrate the sensors.
 
Votes are posted in the Library

DVMD (1) - Pippy
SAR (2) - AM, Stagg
Snowy (1) - jboo

3/14 passengers accounted for
latest
 
Ugh Pippy why? Are you chaos? Or wolf with a night cancel? I've seen that ability be either lynch or night cancel, so to seem less sketchy as a wolf you night canceled to buy cred? Is that what happened?

But literally you just called out people for "playing inconsistently" yet when others call you out, you're intentionally being inconsistent and lying to village "but no guys really I swear its not sketchy when I do it!"

Lynch pippy

If what she's saying is true, then how can we actually evaluate her when she's admittedly lying about how she's playing? I just can't wrap my head around it.

Also her post about SOV makes no sense to me, I feel like he's posted what, 3 times since the game started? How is that enough to say wolfy or not? And wasn't he added before roles were distributed or did I make that part up?

In other non-pippy news, I'm also side-eyeing Stagg for appearing to sheep/pocket AM. Still not thrilled with johnnabanana though she has started some more analysis-y posts.
 
kcoughli said:
Also her post about SOV makes no sense to me, I feel like he's posted what, 3 times since the game started? How is that enough to say wolfy or not? And wasn't he added before roles were distributed or did I make that part up?
Click to expand...

The game was halfway into Day 1 when SOV was added.

kcoughli said:
In other non-pippy news, I'm also side-eyeing Stagg for appearing to sheep/pocket AM. Still not thrilled with johnnabanana though she has started some more analysis-y posts.
Click to expand...

Gow do you feel about the SAR vote? I take it you agree with jboo's analysis?
 
johnnaboo said:
Still have feels for Pips, slightly less feels but still there for KC, and Stagg I'm now neutral on. My re-read has really only brought up more questions than answers.

Unlynch Stagg
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What changed your mind on Stagg and why are you voting for none of these people today?
 
Animal Midwife said:
The game was halfway into Day 1 when SOV was added.
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Fair enough, just remembered it wrong then. Yo, @StartingoverVet , where you at?

Animal Midwife said:
Gow do you feel about the SAR vote? I take it you agree with jboo's analysis?
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SAR is in the same category as Snowy for me, in the sense that people keep bringing her up and I've not really noticed any of their posts as being particularly village or wolfy. So, if people are seeing SAR sketchiness I don't necessarily agree but then others probably know them better and might have a better read.

I do not agree with j-bubs analysis, I just appreciated the fact that she came on later yesterday and actually started having some thoughts and posting reads as opposed to deflecting and posting your patented color-coded lynch tally. Though by quickly rereading her posts I'm actually leaning back towards sketch-ville for her. She was the first to follow pips into lynching the tinkerer-mayor and really got the ball rolling in that direction.
 
kcoughli said:
Fair enough, just remembered it wrong then. Yo, @StartingoverVet , where you at?


SAR is in the same category as Snowy for me, in the sense that people keep bringing her up and I've not really noticed any of their posts as being particularly village or wolfy. So, if people are seeing SAR sketchiness I don't necessarily agree but then others probably know them better and might have a better read.

I do not agree with j-bubs analysis, I just appreciated the fact that she came on later yesterday and actually started having some thoughts and posting reads as opposed to deflecting and posting your patented color-coded lynch tally. Though by quickly rereading her posts I'm actually leaning back towards sketch-ville for her. She was the first to follow pips into lynching the tinkerer-mayor and really got the ball rolling in that direction.
Click to expand...
Though, she may have thought that genny's lynch could pick up quickly (as it did) and would be her best shot at self-pref

Edit: this is about Jboo
 
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kcoughli said:
Ugh Pippy why? Are you chaos? Or wolf with a night cancel? I've seen that ability be either lynch or night cancel, so to seem less sketchy as a wolf you night canceled to buy cred? Is that what happened?

But literally you just called out people for "playing inconsistently" yet when others call you out, you're intentionally being inconsistent and lying to village "but no guys really I swear its not sketchy when I do it!"

Lynch pippy

If what she's saying is true, then how can we actually evaluate her when she's admittedly lying about how she's playing? I just can't wrap my head around it.

Also her post about SOV makes no sense to me, I feel like he's posted what, 3 times since the game started? How is that enough to say wolfy or not? And wasn't he added before roles were distributed or did I make that part up?

In other non-pippy news, I'm also side-eyeing Stagg for appearing to sheep/pocket AM. Still not thrilled with johnnabanana though she has started some more analysis-y posts.
Click to expand...
You have non-pippy news? Because you've been tunneling on me for like 3 days now.

I'm the Bloop, village night cancel, like I said I was. I am now a vanillager because my ability is used up.

The only part of that^ that I lied about was the role name, and that was just to Dolphin in my PM. I typically put in a couple small non-true things into PMs early game, especially when I think I am going to die early and there is potential for a rez, and when I can leverage 2 PMs. It has helped me nail wolves on occasion in the past, and it is relatively harmless in the grand scheme of things. I certainly don't think I'm the only player to use some subtle manipulation tactics in PM (and on the thread occasionally, to test reactions/see if people will grab on to certain bits of information), and I am not really sure why you're suddenly surprised by me saying that I do it.

I feel like you just are really looking for an easy sketch target to latch onto right now. Maybe take a step back and consider some other targets if you are this worked up by statements like "I think it would be easiest for a mod to add a player as vanilla village after the game starts." You KNOW that is true. Or at least, you should know it.

And just to be crystal clear here -- at NO POINT in this game have I claimed that I am not doing things that look sketchy. I am intentionally/feeling fine with acting hella sketchy, because I just came off of 2 wolf wins and I'm honestly shocked people let me live this long.

I just wanted to be able to use the ability at an effective time; I did that, now I'm back in school and frankly idgaf if I get lynched, especially if I can help highlight some opportunistic woofs by doing so.

But since you seem to like the sketchy so much... Here, take my certified 100% village retaliatory vote for your lupine-tinted tunnel.

Unlynch DVMD
Lynch KC
 
For the record/if anyone cares, the reason why I was voting DVMD earlier was because she actually followed me on that sketchy tinfoil path last night.

Not usually her style to let me convince her of my wacko ideas -- typically she will dig in her heels and be a voice of reason/tell me to shove it.

This time, not only did she follow me, but she did so after contingency lynching me for being erratic the day before.

So, I just felt like that was a surprising swap.

Plus, she was on my early game reads, and she typically skates by without a ton of pressure/is an extremely difficult lynch to get off the ground. So, all told, I felt like there were a lot of good reasons to vote there.

May flop back to it later, idk.

She did couch it in the appearance of considering what I was saying, which is something she is very strong at as a wolf. She is very, very good at appearing to be highly reasonable, regardless of affiliation. It's pretty beautiful to watch actually haha

As she pointed out, though, my reads are apparently crap this game, so perhaps it is best if I get lynched anyways 😛
 
PippyPony said:
So what is stopping you? You've been talking about me being sketchy for days now, but you're pulling punches.

Although if "analysis" is telling you I would push something that hard as a wolf, you may need to recalibrate the sensors.
Click to expand...

Yeah but I don't know if I believe myself. I really don't think that night cancel is beneficial to wolves enough to give it to them as an ability. I am curious on all the people who followed you in the last 10 min before lynch close. Seems like a convenient way to save a fellow wolf.. so I'll test out that theory.

Lynch jboo
 
PippyPony said:
You have non-pippy news? Because you've been tunneling on me for like 3 days now.
Click to expand...
Isn't it only D3? And I can tunnel anywhere I like tyvm!
PippyPony said:
I'm the Bloop, village night cancel, like I said I was. I am now a vanillager because my ability is used up.

The only part of that^ that I lied about was the role name, and that was just to Dolphin in my PM. I typically put in a couple small non-true things into PMs early game, especially when I think I am going to die early and there is potential for a rez, and when I can leverage 2 PMs. It has helped me nail wolves on occasion in the past, and it is relatively harmless in the grand scheme of things. I certainly don't think I'm the only player to use some subtle manipulation tactics in PM (and on the thread occasionally, to test reactions/see if people will grab on to certain bits of information), and I am not really sure why you're suddenly surprised by me saying that I do it.
Click to expand...
My entire WW game philosophy has always been that there's no reason for a villager to lie to the village. Avoid answering things, sure, try to keep things to yourself or a trusted few, okay, but straight up lying only seems to benefit wolves. So yes, when someone comes on and starts saying that "well I lied about that but it's okay I'm still a villager" yes I tend to react negatively.

PippyPony said:
I feel like you just are really looking for an easy sketch target to latch onto right now. Maybe take a step back and consider some other targets if you are this worked up by statements like "I think it would be easiest for a mod to add a player as vanilla village after the game starts." You KNOW that is true. Or at least, you should know it.
Click to expand...
UM HILARIOUS HYPOCRISY with this statement! That is literally akin to my comment about abilities being used on the mayor N1. Yet you decided to think it was sketchy enough to call me out for it? Not to mention I don't think at all that you'd be an easy lynch or whatever you're implying here. You demonstrated a traditionally-villager ability and no one else seems to think you're as wolfy as I do. Your comments on SOV stood out to me - felt like it came out of nowhere in defense of a player who hasn't even been around, who does that? And why? It was weird, felt off, so I called it out. I don't regret it.

PippyPony said:
And just to be crystal clear here -- at NO POINT in this game have I claimed that I am not doing things that look sketchy. I am intentionally/feeling fine with acting hella sketchy, because I just came off of 2 wolf wins and I'm honestly shocked people let me live this long.
Click to expand...
Okay, well if you're going to act sketchy (intentionally or not or whatever) then I'm going to vote for you and you shouldn't feel surprised. :shrug:
 
I haven't really gone back to look at who swapped when last night -- was too busy railroading genny on mobile lol -- but my first instinct would be to look at people who appeared more hesitant to jump on the lynch.

Lynching the mayor and a possible tinkerer is pretty damn high value for wolves... so much so, they may have not wanted to move immediately onto the lynch.

Because in addition to getting her ability list off the table, it also sets up a really good list of people that wolves could easily jump to today under the guise of going after the bandwagoners/avenging a bad lynch. Harder to do that today if they were all piling on lickety-split.

So, I'd look for people who appeared to be deliberating/who were playing a bit of devil's advocate. Or people who stayed off of it entirely.
 
Oh, and while I am thinking of it...dolphin was relaying genny's role information to me via PM.

She reported it accurately, and therefore also knew that genny had the ability to overrule a lynch. This was prior to genny posting those abilities on the thread, so for all we knew, she could have cancelled her own lynch.

She also -- like me -- questioned why genny would be concerned about 2 people dying in a tie, if she could supposedly break one. However, she gave a "yeah me too" response, vs. actually leading with that analysis herself. Most of her PM responses to me have been following my stated reads/saying she agrees with me.

Not sure what I'm going to do with that, tbph, but just wanted to put it out there in case that helps anyone with their analysis of how things went down.

Fwiw I think I am still reading her as decently village, although I'm starting to walk back on that a bit the more she follows my lead.
 
kcoughli said:
My entire WW game philosophy has always been that there's no reason for a villager to lie to the village. Avoid answering things, sure, try to keep things to yourself or a trusted few, okay, but straight up lying only seems to benefit wolves. So yes, when someone comes on and starts saying that "well I lied about that but it's okay I'm still a villager" yes I tend to react negatively.
Click to expand...
I realize that, and I know we disagree here. I also know a bunch of other players who haaaaaate it when I do stuff like put them on my wolf reads to keep them alive (*cough* @WildZoo ). But again, seeing as how I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before, and people used to ream out STL for doing that kind of thing (he was better at it), I'm not sure why it's surprising.

kcoughli said:
UM HILARIOUS HYPOCRISY with this statement! That is literally akin to my comment about abilities being used on the mayor N1. Yet you decided to think it was sketchy enough to call me out for it? Not to mention I don't think at all that you'd be an easy lynch or whatever you're implying here. You demonstrated a traditionally-villager ability and no one else seems to think you're as wolfy as I do. Your comments on SOV stood out to me - felt like it came out of nowhere in defense of a player who hasn't even been around, who does that? And why? It was weird, felt off, so I called it out. I don't regret it.
Click to expand...
I wasn't defending him, I was saying I had put him down in my initial wolfy reads because he seemed to be avoiding the spotlight in a way I didn't anticipate. Then, I thought about what I would do as a mod, and decided I probably would not have added him in as anything other than a vanillager, since the game had already started & it seemed like more of a nostalgia thing for kdubs/kata to make a spot for him. Reading his comments in the context of a vanillager, it seemed to fit ok. You can read him however you see fit.

As for me being an easy lynch...i dunno, I think I'm a pretty damn good late game sketchy lynch for wolves to leave around lol

I mean, I got rid of an upgraded tinkerer for them, and I hardcore suck at defending -- why would they not keep me alive haha

kcoughli said:
Okay, well if you're going to act sketchy (intentionally or not or whatever) then I'm going to vote for you and you shouldn't feel surprised. :shrug:
Click to expand...
Oh, I'm not surprised 😉
 
PippyPony said:
For the record/if anyone cares, the reason why I was voting DVMD earlier was because she actually followed me on that sketchy tinfoil path last night.

Not usually her style to let me convince her of my wacko ideas -- typically she will dig in her heels and be a voice of reason/tell me to shove it.

This time, not only did she follow me, but she did so after contingency lynching me for being erratic the day before.

So, I just felt like that was a surprising swap.

Plus, she was on my early game reads, and she typically skates by without a ton of pressure/is an extremely difficult lynch to get off the ground. So, all told, I felt like there were a lot of good reasons to vote there.

May flop back to it later, idk.

She did couch it in the appearance of considering what I was saying, which is something she is very strong at as a wolf. She is very, very good at appearing to be highly reasonable, regardless of affiliation. It's pretty beautiful to watch actually haha

As she pointed out, though, my reads are apparently crap this game, so perhaps it is best if I get lynched anyways 😛
Click to expand...

I'm capable of thinking for myself ,thank you very much. I read up on things and agreed on the inconsistencies and even stated as such.

So **** off with the "I just followed you" bull****
 
DVMDream said:
I'm capable of thinking for myself ,thank you very much. I read up on things and agreed on the inconsistencies and even stated as such.

So **** off with the "I just followed you" bull****
Click to expand...

Do you have more time to share reads today?
 
SnowshoeDog143 said:
Yeah but I don't know if I believe myself. I really don't think that night cancel is beneficial to wolves enough to give it to them as an ability.
Click to expand...
Particularly in a game where they appear to have double kills.

It's actually what got me to stop whining to the mods about night cancel lol. I typically sort of hate night cancel because I feel like it's kinda boring for everyone and just stops the village from getting info.

But putting the breaks on repeated double kills to stop us from accelerating to lylo so fast...ok, that I can get behind. Especially if there are minimal info-driven roles on the village side, which appears to be the case based off of the dead.

SnowshoeDog143 said:
I am curious on all the people who followed you in the last 10 min before lynch close. Seems like a convenient way to save a fellow wolf.. so I'll test out that theory.

Lynch jboo
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate on who in particular you think would have jumped on to save her?
 
Animal Midwife said:
Do you have more time to share reads today?
Click to expand...

I'm at work and double booked. So probably not.

I'm skeeved still by pippy but she gets village points for sticking her neck out on the genny lynch.

You're rubbing me the wrong way but I think it is because you're questioning me on posts that are clearly meant to be jokes and it is frustrating having to explain a damn joke when that's how you always play.

Otherwise, need to hear more from dolphin.
 
DVMDream said:
I'm capable of thinking for myself ,thank you very much. I read up on things and agreed on the inconsistencies and even stated as such.

So **** off with the "I just followed you" bull****
Click to expand...
In no way was I implying that you were not carefully considering what you were doing. I basically said the opposite. Regardless of your affiliation, you are consistently deliberate and thoughtful in your actions.
 
PippyPony said:
In no way was I implying that you were not carefully considering what you were doing. I basically said the opposite. Regardless of your affiliation, you are consistently deliberate and thoughtful in your actions.
Click to expand...

Why are you calling your own theory sketchy? Should we be worried it is?
 
DVMDream said:
Why are you calling your own theory sketchy? Should we be worried it is?
Click to expand...
My own theory about who -- you?

I'm not calling that part sketchy, I'm saying I would not be shocked if I'm wrong about you given that I'm royally sucking with the whole wolf hunting thing this game lol

Or did you mean my theory about genny?

If that's what you were referring to... I think it is pretty plain that a lot of people found it sketchy, so I'm just stating the obvious lmao

But no, I don't actually think it is/was wolfy. It was way too aggressive of a move for me to ever pull as a wolf, hence my comment(s) about wishing I could replicate it at some point. Basically, looking so sketch that it stops actually being sketch.

I did ask mods to make me chaos retroactively, they said no. Womp womp.
 
PippyPony said:
I haven't really gone back to look at who swapped when last night -- was too busy railroading genny on mobile lol -- but my first instinct would be to look at people who appeared more hesitant to jump on the lynch.

Lynching the mayor and a possible tinkerer is pretty damn high value for wolves... so much so, they may have not wanted to move immediately onto the lynch.

Because in addition to getting her ability list off the table, it also sets up a really good list of people that wolves could easily jump to today under the guise of going after the bandwagoners/avenging a bad lynch. Harder to do that today if they were all piling on lickety-split.

So, I'd look for people who appeared to be deliberating/who were playing a bit of devil's advocate. Or people who stayed off of it entirely.
Click to expand...
I feel like the logic in this post is so backwards. "Yes everyone who thought it might be a bad idea to lynch the outed mayor-tinkerer must clearly be a wolf." Really? that is WIFOM a few levels in I'd say.
 
kcoughli said:
I feel like the logic in this post is so backwards. "Yes everyone who thought it might be a bad idea to lynch the outed mayor-tinkerer must clearly be a wolf." Really? that is WIFOM a few levels in I'd say.
Click to expand...
That's not what I said. Stop twisting things around and being alarmist.

I said that when I go back and look at it, I will probably start looking at those people first.

And idgaf if it's WIFOMy or not. That is often how I retroactively analyze lynches: thinking about what wolf behavior might look like in a given scenario.

Again -- I feel like you should know this about me by now lol
 
I'm somewhat torn between going back to jboo from yesterday and going for dolphin. I recognize jboo has revealed, but we all know any ability can be wolf or village and I still haven't been a fan of her gameplay. However, her responses to being in the lead yesterday did sound more like village jboo to me. Dolphin has raised some sketchy flags before but then disappears long enough for me to forget them.not sure how I feel about them being the vessel for communicating between Pippy and Genny and eventually getting wrapped up in all that for getting Genny lynched in the end. That would be a good move for a wolf trying to get village to take out their own powerful mayor.

I need to see where everyone fell on that final lynch tally again, then I'll be back to vote
 
PippyPony said:
That's not what I said. Stop twisting things around and being alarmist.

I said that when I go back and look at it, I will probably start looking at those people first.

And idgaf if it's WIFOMy or not. That is often how I retroactively analyze lynches: thinking about what wolf behavior might look like in a given scenario.

Again -- I feel like you should know this about me by now lol
Click to expand...
I condensed the post into how I read it. I still don't think I read it wrong, you think the people who hesitated about lynching the mayor-tinkerer should be looked into. That reads to me that you think that's a wolfy move. Which makes opposite sense, hence the WIFOM.

Not to mention you're talking about retroactively analyzing a lynch you lead. Of course you're going to say the opposite stance was more wolfy, because you're trying to not-so-subtly hint that your stance was not wolfy. I'm just calling it like I see it.

But I should probably go do work now.
 
Yeah

Lynch dolphin

I don't like all that info drop to pippy, no defense of genny (though could have just not been around at the time, I recognize that), and stayed off the genny lynch. I could be wrong, but that would be a good wolf move to get rid of a dangerous player without getting your hands dirty.

Of course, the same could be said for Pippy but between her ability and her or thread posting she's pretty clearly village in my eval
 
kcoughli said:
I condensed the post into how I read it. I still don't think I read it wrong, you think the people who hesitated about lynching the mayor-tinkerer should be looked into. That reads to me that you think that's a wolfy move. Which makes opposite sense, hence the WIFOM.
Click to expand...
Yeah, exactly. It's just that I don't think eeeeeeveryone who was doing that is omg drop everything guaranteed wolfy. Black & white starts heading towards word-twisting territory.

kcoughli said:
Not to mention you're talking about retroactively analyzing a lynch you lead. Of course you're going to say the opposite stance was more wolfy, because you're trying to not-so-subtly hint that your stance was not wolfy.
Click to expand...
Quite right, because I know my stance was not wolfy lol

So if you can justify it in your own head, I don't see what the problem is here 😉
 
PippyPony said:
My own theory about who -- you?

I'm not calling that part sketchy, I'm saying I would not be shocked if I'm wrong about you given that I'm royally sucking with the whole wolf hunting thing this game lol

Or did you mean my theory about genny?

If that's what you were referring to... I think it is pretty plain that a lot of people found it sketchy, so I'm just stating the obvious lmao

But no, I don't actually think it is/was wolfy. It was way too aggressive of a move for me to ever pull as a wolf, hence my comment(s) about wishing I could replicate it at some point. Basically, looking so sketch that it stops actually being sketch.

I did ask mods to make me chaos retroactively, they said no. Womp womp.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about you calling your genny theory sketchy because you did.
 
Votes are posted in the Library

DVMD (0) -
SAR (2) - AM, Stagg
Snowy (1) - jboo
pippy (1) - kcough
kcough (1) - pippy
jboo (1) - snowy
dolphin (1) - SAR

7/14 passengers accounted for
latest
 
Day 1 Election Tally
allie (2) - allie, DVMD
Pippy (5) - Pippy, Skim, AM, SAR, capri
AM () - AM
genny (6) - genny, bryndi, Coffee?, Stagg, jboo, dolphin
Mel (2) - Mel, WZ

15/18
Missing: kc, SOV, Snowy

Day 2 Lynch Tally
SAR (4) - AM, genny, Skim, Pippy, genny, DVMD
kc (1) - Coffee?, Pippy
DVMD () - Pippy
bj (1) - Skim, WZ
Coffee? (5) - jboo, SOV, bj, Stagg, Snowy, SAR
Pippy () - kc
genny (1) - SAR, allie
jboo (2) - dolphin, Pippy
dolphin (1) - kc
Stagg () - genny
WZ (1) - bj

16/16

Day 3 Lynch Tally
Pippy (1) - DVMD, kc
Stagg () - jboo, genny
bj () - Pippy
Snowy () - AM
jboo (3) - Pippy, dolphin, SAR, bj, kc, allie, genny
dolphin (2) - Snowy, AM
allie () - Stagg
SAR (1) - Skim
genny (5) - Pippy, jboo, DVMD, SAR, Stagg

12/14
Missing: allie, SOV
 
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DVMDream said:
I'm talking about you calling your genny theory sketchy because you did.
Click to expand...
Ah.

No, I don't think the theory itself was sketchy. I thought about it a lot; the information I had at my disposal seemed to fit, so I went there.

I think people could rightly say that the way I pushed it looked superficially sketchy. Which, in turn, is not wolfy for numerous reasons (not the least of which is because I would be left to deal with this ****show, and that sounds like a lotta extra work lol)
 
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