Lying on VMCAS

[JoAnna423]

There was a thread about lying on interviews from 2011...but oh well, I figured this title would get peoples attention

Basically, someone I met...without getting specific...basically admitted to me (before knowing I was an unsuccessful vet school applicant) that she had falsehoods on her vmcas. She "knew" a vet personally, and she put on her app that she had numerous hours with him but in actuality...she flat out didn't. She had never once shadowed him, she just knew him as a friend. It was just a bold face lie. Now, my beliefs give me the comfort that knowing karma will come her way soon and I truly do not get upset or angry at things of this sort. I do not think she is a "horrible person" either - the way she talked about it she really made it seem like no big deal...I mean obviously she just shared the info with me out of nowhere!

So...I started thinking that how many people lie? How do (if they do) schools verify that hours are true? I know that for experiences you put contact information but in all honesty it seems highly unlikely that a school could "check" hundreds and hundreds of applicants...but do they? I would be terrified to lie, even if I thought that it was morally okay. But how many people are not?

And P.S. she got in to vet school, probably not due to this one lie...but still, the lie was there.

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[orcagirl]

I do think that lying on an application is awful. It does make me wonder if this is the kind of person to cheat their way through school. (I'm not saying they did, but lying on something like a vet school app might indicate that they think lying/cheating is no big deal).

I worked hard to earn every single one of my hours. Knowing that someone can just write down hours willy nilly and not even care about it, does bother me a little.

 

[235788]

lying is bad

 

[JoAnna423]

Yeah I guess I was more wondering how do schools check, or do they check? Just thought some other people could share their thoughts, knowledge of experiences. I realize that lying is bad, lol.

 

[orcagirl]

Not sure. Maybe they randomly check. Also the contact number isn't a requirement. So theoretically you can leave it out and they have no way of checking. It's there something that you click when you submit that says you verify all the information is true? I could be mistaken.

 

[OH Bunny Girl]

I thought that the schools verfied hours during interviews. I know Ohio State sure asked me some nit-picky details about some of my experiences. But what about hours at schools that don't interview?

 

[heylodeb]

That's really too bad.

 

[Lissarae06]

I'm sure people do lie on their applications but I would have to think that the majority of people that apply to vet school are ethical human beings. I think that they only way to really catch someone in a lie like this, especially if there is no contact info, is to ask about specific experiences like the PP said they did at Ohio State.

 

[Packen]

It makes me sad that people resort to that. Unfortunately they are the people that are going to cut corners in many aspects of the their lives and this could be potentially dangerous for their future patients

As for checking, I know that in one of my interviews they had brought up the fact I had a super large number of veterinary hours. I had so many because I took 5 years off between application cycles and worked full time at a clinic. Usually over 50 hours a week. I don't think they called the vet, but they did ask me a lot of questions about it.

 

[Bismarck]

As others have noted, the interview process serves as a verification of application materials as well as your personality. It's one thing to estimate your total experience hours for your application (I didn't log every single hour to a T, so I used my best judgement and rounded down to a number I felt was defensible if asked how I arrived at it), it's another to go through mental gymanstics to okay a deliberate lie.

To the OP: If I were in your shoes and I had more information (beyond hearsay or word of mouth) that an applicant cheated or falsified their application, I would consider contacting that schools' admissions department via email and bringing the matter to their attention: after all, does anybody want a colleague lacking this much integrity (and what else will they try to obfuscate in the future)? The only downside to opening your mouth is the "sour grapes" argument that arises from you not getting in this year. You may also color your applicant file (for good or bad?) if you choose to apply to that school in the future.

Takeaway: Ethics is what you do (and how you act) when other people aren't watching.

 

[Abnerrs]

What the crap?! People actually do this?! (OK if I think rationally it doesn't surprise me that much) But it really makes me angry because I fought for everything I put on my app and I did NOT get admitted. Oh well . What Bismark said resonated with me though, because I have have worked a vaccine clinic twice a month for 5 years and the hours aren't logged in a computer so I had to average the hours I work (sometimes less, sometimes more) and get a number that was close to what I actually worked.

I have heard that it is a random check. Just close your eyes and point to one? But I don't know how that relates to every school.

 

[pooter]

I think the ad coms are sensitive to the possibility of this happening and adjust their interviews accordingly. Like, for my VMCAS I had eLORs from every place I'd shadowed except for one. When my Penn interview came around, they didn't bring it up directly, but they did ask "So what kind of cases did you see at Practice X?" As I described the typical kinds of cases we saw and a few specific patients, I could see them sort of relaxing. Like they were saying to themselves "Oh, so she did get those hours."

 

[JoAnna423]

What the crap?! People actually do this?! (OK if I think rationally it doesn't surprise me that much) But it really makes me angry because I fought for everything I put on my app and I did NOT get admitted. Oh well . What Bismark said resonated with me though, because I have have worked a vaccine clinic twice a month for 5 years and the hours aren't logged in a computer so I had to average the hours I work (sometimes less, sometimes more) and get a number that was close to what I actually worked.

I have heard that it is a random check. Just close your eyes and point to one? But I don't know how that relates to every school.

I was not that suprised that it happened, but I was SUPER suprised at how easily she just said "yeah I kinda just made up my hours since I knew him." I am even MORE shocked that the veternarian agreed that this was okay? People suck, in any profession. And yeah I am AWFUL at keeping records of things...its horrible really, but on my VMCAS I just kept it logical and honest about the time I spent there. I volunteered at an animal sanctuary twice a month usually for about 3-4 hours for a year, I took a break for two months when I without a car and certainly did not keep a log book of when I was there since the times varied considerably (I gave tours, some long. some short)...I just averaged my hours based on the months, took out time for the break, and there ya go.

 

[Wildlife woman]

That's so messed up. The fact that she straight up told you and acted like it was no big deal proves she doesn't feel guilty at all. I hope she doesn't go to my school because people like that throw others under the bus

 

[TigerWillow]

Remember guys, people who lie about the littlest things will also lie about big things.

Yahoo CEO got fired quite recently bc he lied about getting a masters in computer science (it might have been a different degree, but it had to do with CPUs). It wasn't required for him to have, and he did an excellent job being the CEO until someone dug into his past. However, the ethics is what got the board's attn, so adios CEO.

She might get what's coming to her later on when she least expects it.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I remember this topic from another discussion.

Everyone has a strict honesty policy until it's time to fill out their own app.

Then you're manipulating your job description, exaggerating the significance of your research work, spinning the C you got in organic and turning your normal, banal life into some kind of Lifetime movie inspirational story for your PS.

Honesty is subjective.

 

[Abnerrs]

I remember this topic from another discussion.

Everyone has a strict honesty policy until it's time to fill out their own app.

Then you're manipulating your job description, exaggerating the significance of your research work, spinning the C you got in organic and turning your normal, banal life into some kind of Lifetime movie inspirational story for your PS.

Honesty is subjective.

I'm sure I've done this without even realizing it. But I think spinning something you've done to put you in the best light is vastly different that blatantly making something up.

 

[bigkittinteef]

I understand DSM's point but I have to agree with Abney. There is a significant distinction between a flattering exaggeration and a lie with no basis in reality whatsoever; this girl didn't make this situation sound better, she made it up in it's entirety.
Though it sounds like her character is questionable at best, I wouldn't dwell on it. I don't see how lying (and such an indifferent attitude towards lying) could work out for her in the long run. Just a thought.

 

[Fireflysushi]

This year when I applied I had over 1000 hours of volunteer experience in a particular vet clinic. However I choose not to have either of the vets at that clinic write me a letter of recommendation because I had asked them the previous year and I wasn't pleased with the way they handled it. RVC this year asked for an additional recommendation from that vet clinic on official stationary from the clinic or from an e-mail belonging to the clinic. They also refused to accept the recommendation when one of the vet's sent it from his yahoo e-mail account. I would assume that they thought I might be lying about those hours because I didn't have a recommendation from that clinic. I didn't have any trouble with this from any of the other schools I applied to. I think it is terrible that this person has succeeded from her lies when more honest people are left out of vet school. Unfortunatly it seems like it is pretty easy to get away with these kinds of things.

 

[bigkittinteef]

Hmph. The whole RVC thing was a load of turd. I don't know what happened there.

 

[Emiloo4]

I think your hours need to make sense (I worked 40 hours a week for a year ... 52x40~ 2000 hours) or they will definitely be checked on at random. I had a pretty decent number of hours and wasn't asked a single question about my experiences as a vet tech so I think it just depends. Honestly I wasn't worried about being questioned bc I knew I could back it up, so I never really thought about it too much I guess.

 

[bbeventer]

Lying is bad, and the vet community is small. No you may not get caught, but if you do the penalty is great.

 

[tvo21]

That is pretty unfortunate. Even though some liars get what they want that bad habit will catch up to them eventually. I remember we had a speaker talk about interviews in my Career Seminar course my senior year of college. For his medical school application, this guy put in his hobbies that he plays the guitar. At his interview, the interviewer pulled out a guitar and told him to play. He had no idea how to play guitar.

And that has nothing to do with medical skills or experience. He just lied about something he could have simply left out. Funny stuff...but yeah honesty is the best policy

 

[bigkittinteef]

That is pretty unfortunate. Even though some liars get what they want that bad habit will catch up to them eventually. I remember we had a speaker talk about interviews in my Career Seminar course my senior year of college. For his medical school application, this guy put in his hobbies that he plays the guitar. At his interview, the interviewer pulled out a guitar and told him to play. He had no idea how to play guitar.

And that has nothing to do with medical skills or experience. He just lied about something he could have simply left out. Funny stuff...but yeah honesty is the best policy

 

[DVMDream]

That is too bad that she feels she can lie like that. It is obvious that she doesn't have any remorse about doing so either.

I was so afraid that if I put in my actual vet hours they would have probably thought I was exaggerating. For my application I put that I had 7,000 hours of vet experience with the clinics I had worked in for over 6 years. Yes 7,000 hours is a really low estimate. I would say it was probably closer to 10,000+ but I figured it was probably better to stay on a low guess. I was really worried that they would question my 60 hours at the zoo I volunteered at. I had a name for them to contact but the zoo never kept track of the volunteer hours (I never had to check in or do anything proving I was actually there) and the volunteer coordinator was an ass and I am fairly certain that he did not like me. I was afraid if they tried to contact him that he would deny that I ever volunteered there but I don't think they even questioned it because it was such a low number of hours.

I just don't get why someone would lie about hours worked. It will eventually come to bite you in the ass. Especially if she claimed to have certain experiences and then later can't show that she actually did any of the things she claimed to have done. Just doesn't seem like the benefit of lying is worth the risk.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I understand DSM's point but I have to agree with Abney. There is a significant distinction between a flattering exaggeration and a lie with no basis in reality whatsoever; this girl didn't make this situation sound better, she made it up in it's entirety.
Though it sounds like her character is questionable at best, I wouldn't dwell on it. I don't see how lying (and such an indifferent attitude towards lying) could work out for her in the long run. Just a thought.

That was directed a little more towards some of the absolutists above.

But honesty is still honesty. Exaggeration or spin is still dishonest. If you place that high of a premium on complete truthfulness, your explanation section is going to be a novel.

 

[bigkittinteef]

That was directed a little more towards some of the absolutists above.

But honesty is still honesty. Exaggeration or spin is still dishonest. If you place that high of a premium on complete truthfulness, your explanation section is going to be a novel.

Fair enough.

 

[Spinach Dip]

That is pretty unfortunate. Even though some liars get what they want that bad habit will catch up to them eventually. I remember we had a speaker talk about interviews in my Career Seminar course my senior year of college. For his medical school application, this guy put in his hobbies that he plays the guitar. At his interview, the interviewer pulled out a guitar and told him to play. He had no idea how to play guitar.

Reminds me of those who say 'fluent in french', only to have one of the interviewers start asking questions in french...

If you lie about something like that, you are honestly asking to be made a fool of.



Back to OP:

It is a shame that someone feels they have to do this to get in, and it is the #1 reason I am against using veterinary hours as way to decide who gets into vet school and who doesn't. Honestly, they are unverifiable. I could take whatever hours I have, and multiply them by ~2 and no one would be the wiser. (most of the vets I've worked under never kept detailed records, either! So if they were asked to verify something, most wouldn't even know if I was lying!)

I also have no sympathy for anyone who does this. They are probably the same people who end up unemployed, behind on their student loans, and convinced that life is crapping on them.

Karma.

 

[alliecat44]

Happens after you get into vet school, too. We were required to do three one-week externships during vet school...one SA, one LA, one "elective."

Several of my classmates had friends who were recent grads. They mutually falsified things so that it looked like the student fulfilled the externship requirement when in reality, they just enjoyed another week of their summer/winter break.

Pretty disheartening. You would think it would catch up with them, but it hasn't yet.

 

[Jamr0ckin]

It is a shame that someone feels they have to do this to get in, and it is the #1 reason I am against using veterinary hours as way to decide who gets into vet school and who doesn't. Honestly, they are unverifiable. I could take whatever hours I have, and multiply them by ~2 and no one would be the wiser. (most of the vets I've worked under never kept detailed records, either! So if they were asked to verify something, most wouldn't even know if I was lying!)

If you were employed, then time-clock/ payment records must be kept and therefor are verifiable.

 

[SnowyRox]

If you were employed, then time-clock/ payment records must be kept and therefor are verifiable.

Of course, but many of us shadowed or volunteered.

I never kept an exact records of my hours... tried to at the beginning and then forgot about it for a few years . But I obviously tried to estimate as accurately as possible, and really, no one cares if I had 250 or 300 hours at one clinic. Exaggerating isn't worth it.

I would be tempted to contact the school anonymously and have them check her file. If the vet backs her up then there's nothing you can do, but the vet may be in the dark. I signed an intense honor code for undergrad, and will have a similar one for vet school. Peer reporting is an important function in the system.

What do you guys think about how Cornell requests a letter from every experience? I thought it was overkill, but it definitely does mean that you need your best foot forward at all times.

 

[Trematode]

against[/I] using veterinary hours as way to decide who gets into vet school and who doesn't. Honestly, they are unverifiable. I could take whatever hours I have, and multiply them by ~2 and no one would be the wiser. (most of the vets I've worked under never kept detailed records, either! So if they were asked to verify something, most wouldn't even know if I was lying!)

It also runs the other way too.
The local vet school does not even ask you about your vet experience or about ethics. It is closed file and behaviour based.
Which is why I know of one girl getting in who kept a rabbit in a shoebox-sized cage for its entire life and bred her hedgehog against the advice of others. And it was posted on here that a student at the same school was asked to dog-sit and could not even be bothered to take care of the animal.

Some people lie about their hours to get in. Others cannot even properly take care of their own animals and get in.
It sucks... and it may come back to bite them. If I had lied on my last resume, I probably would not have gotten my current job based on how bad they grilled me and my references!

 

[equitate]

I remember this topic from another discussion.

Everyone has a strict honesty policy until it's time to fill out their own app.

Then you're manipulating your job description, exaggerating the significance of your research work, spinning the C you got in organic and turning your normal, banal life into some kind of Lifetime movie inspirational story for your PS.

Honesty is subjective.

I disagree. The truth is cut and dry - there's no subjectivity in my opinion. I can confidently say that I did not manipulate or exaggerate a single thing on my application, and I'm sure plenty of others feel the same. I was detailed and thorough in my descriptions (you betcha that I made sure to include every type of procedure I've seen, technical skills, etc.) but I honestly never once stretched the truth. Lying on your application is not a requirement for getting into vet school. I'm sure there are people who do it, but I refuse to believe that everyone does.

Boo to the girl who lied on her app and double boo for flapping her gums about it like it was no big deal. I'm also in the camp that it will catch up to her sooner or later. Maybe sooner if you report her, lol.

LOVE the story about the guy with the guitar

 

[Dsmoody23]

I disagree. The truth is cut and dry - there's no subjectivity in my opinion. I can confidently say that I did not manipulate or exaggerate a single thing on my application, and I'm sure plenty of others feel the same. I was detailed and thorough in my descriptions (you betcha that I made sure to include every type of procedure I've seen, technical skills, etc.) but I honestly never once stretched the truth. Lying on your application is not a requirement for getting into vet school. I'm sure there are people who do it, but I refuse to believe that everyone does.

Boo to the girl who lied on her app and double boo for flapping her gums about it like it was no big deal. I'm also in the camp that it will catch up to her sooner or later. Maybe sooner if you report her, lol.

LOVE the story about the guy with the guitar

 

[Spinach Dip]

It also runs the other way too.
The local vet school does not even ask you about your vet experience or about ethics. It is closed file and behaviour based.
Which is why I know of one girl getting in who kept a rabbit in a shoebox-sized cage for its entire life and bred her hedgehog against the advice of others. And it was posted on here that a student at the same school was asked to dog-sit and could not even be bothered to take care of the animal.

Wow. What school was that?

If you were employed, then time-clock/ payment records must be kept and therefor are verifiable.

That assumes that:
1. You were employed.
2. The school contacts your employer.
3. And your employer can actually be bothered to research your records and find exactly how many hours you worked.

In my own experience (and the words of those posting here), even if 1 and 2 happen, 3 is unlikely.



I shadowed a vet for 50 hours. He was a great guy, and if I put 100 hours on my application, he'd probably back me up (or assume I had made an honest mistake).

So how many hours am I going to claim? Well...call me old-fashioned, but I'm going to write 50.

 

[CanHardlyWait]

I would be tempted to contact the school anonymously and have them check her file. If the vet backs her up then there's nothing you can do, but the vet may be in the dark. I signed an intense honor code for undergrad, and will have a similar one for vet school. Peer reporting is an important function in the system.

I agree that the OP should seriously consider contacting the school. I was in a situation in undergrad that put me in a similar moral/ethical dilemma, although someone's entire future was not on the line. In the end I knew that the position that I was in (a peer leadership position) and the honor code that I had agreed to demanded that I speak up.
Regarding this issue specifically, we're all working towards becoming veterinarians, but also towards becoming respected members of our communities. A medical degree is not just an academic achievement, it also confers a certain amount of prestige and trust from the community. This requires us to not only hold ourselves accountable to a high level of ethical behavior, but also to hold each other accountable. If as a professional community we develop a "look the other way policy" regarding the transgressions of our colleagues, than the whole profession will suffer.

 

[JoAnna423]

Of course, but many of us shadowed or volunteered.


What do you guys think about how Cornell requests a letter from every experience? I thought it was overkill, but it definitely does mean that you need your best foot forward at all times.

I mean I think it is an effective policy in preventing exaggerating, lying, and teaching you to document and get the most out of your experiences. But I do not think it is a necessary policy in order to determine who would be a good vet and who wouldnt. I mean good lord the process is diffucult enough as it is! But I do think so many times in preparing for veteirnary school you get obsessed with hours, hours, hours...without really thinking about what you are doing during those hours. I have even fallen victim to developing my resume more than developing myself and not really getting the most out of what I do...

 

[JoAnna423]

I agree that the OP should seriously consider contacting the school. I was in a situation in undergrad that put me in a similar moral/ethical dilemma, although someone's entire future was not on the line. In the end I knew that the position that I was in (a peer leadership position) and the honor code that I had agreed to demanded that I speak up.
Regarding this issue specifically, we're all working towards becoming veterinarians, but also towards becoming respected members of our communities. A medical degree is not just an academic achievement, it also confers a certain amount of prestige and trust from the community. This requires us to not only hold ourselves accountable to a high level of ethical behavior, but also to hold each other accountable. If as a professional community we develop a "look the other way policy" regarding the transgressions of our colleagues, than the whole profession will suffer.

Not knowing her other experiences, and what was true and what wasnt...the hours she said, or the vet...I am hesitant to contact the school. I have not asked her about it since, I am sure that if I did she would be wondering why I am asking. As unfair as it is, I just do not know enough "facts" to feel comfortable calling the school. She just maed it clear that she lied about one experience on her vmcas and that the vet as ok with it.

 

[russellang]

I know of a few applicants who lied about their residency on their application. For example, their parents or friends live in a state with a vet school or another vet school that they are more likely to get into that is not the state they are currently residing in (and have never resided in or not been for a few years).

 

[Emiloo4]

I know of a few applicants who lied about their residency on their application. For example, their parents or friends live in a state with a vet school or another vet school that they are more likely to get into that is not the state they are currently residing in (and have never resided in or not been for a few years).

This is much harder to get away with! They have many more checks for this. At least my IS school did. You had to give your DL#, license plate, proof of registration, and voter's registration if you clicked the "IS" box on the app. And schools WILL check this bc they get much more money if they can prove you're OOS

 

[Fly Racing]

I know of a few applicants who lied about their residency on their application. For example, their parents or friends live in a state with a vet school or another vet school that they are more likely to get into that is not the state they are currently residing in (and have never resided in or not been for a few years).

That's not necessarily a lie. Most, and potentially all states allow a person under a certain age (under 24 seems common) to be a resident "for tuition purposes" if one or both of their parents meet the residency requirements, even if the kid never set foot in that state. It's a great provision that protects the student from potentially losing any chance of residency (from any state) because their parents moved when the kid was in college but the state the kid goes to college in won't grant residency because they were there "for educational purposes". Sure, it will give a few applicants an advantage of having options, but more importantly it protects the few that would lose all opportunity for in-state status. Worrying about the few with dual residency is just a waste of time; if the rules are set to allow it jealousy won't help!

 

[Emiloo4]

That's not necessarily a lie. Most, and potentially all states allow a person under a certain age (under 24 seems common) to be a resident "for tuition purposes" if one or both of their parents meet the residency requirements, even if the kid never set foot in that state. It's a great provision that protects the student from potentially losing any chance of residency (from any state) because their parents moved when the kid was in college but the state the kid goes to college in won't grant residency because they were there "for educational purposes". Sure, it will give a few applicants an advantage of having options, but more importantly it protects the few that would lose all opportunity for in-state status.

Yeah, this too.

 

[CanHardlyWait]

Not knowing her other experiences, and what was true and what wasnt...the hours she said, or the vet...I am hesitant to contact the school. I have not asked her about it since, I am sure that if I did she would be wondering why I am asking. As unfair as it is, I just do not know enough "facts" to feel comfortable calling the school. She just maed it clear that she lied about one experience on her vmcas and that the vet as ok with it.

Yeah, I see your point. Plus with the vet being in on the lie, it would be hard for the school to get to the truth. She really put you in a tough spot. I'm sorry about all of it. It's bad enough to lie, but to brag about it...really tells you something about her character.

 

[August West]

Life is bewildering enough without having to navigate through dishonesty and deceit. I have no room for liars in my life. (I'm look at you, ex-girlfriend)

 

[wildcatj]

This just reminds me of a few weeks ago when I found out how horribly pre-vet kids at my school were cheating on their exams. I think you guys have just spoiled me and therefore I assume 98% of pre-vetters are awesome, moral individuals. Apparently not...

 

[Emiloo4]

 

[CanHardlyWait]

 

[PetPony]

This just reminds me of a few weeks ago when I found out how horribly pre-vet kids at my school were cheating on their exams. I think you guys have just spoiled me and therefore I assume 98% of pre-vetters are awesome, moral individuals. Apparently not...

I definitely thought that pre-vets in "real life" at my college are much different than the ones on here, too! They all seem to be so ignorant and sure of themselves, even when they haven't done much at all in terms of gaining experience, etc. I don't very much like hanging out with them. I prefer non-pre-vets most of the time.

 

[SnowyRox]

I definitely thought that pre-vets in "real life" at my college are much different than the ones on here, too! They all seem to be so ignorant and sure of themselves, even when they haven't done much at all in terms of gaining experience, etc. I don't very much like hanging out with them. I prefer non-pre-vets most of the time.

There was only one other student in my year who applied this cycle. She's awesome and ridiculously honest! And going to UMN c/o 2016 .

100% acceptance rate

 

[Abnerrs]

This just reminds me of a few weeks ago when I found out how horribly pre-vet kids at my school were cheating on their exams. I think you guys have just spoiled me and therefore I assume 98% of pre-vetters are awesome, moral individuals. Apparently not...

Most I have met are pretty stinking honest. They're just naive and think they will get in NO problem. So full of themselves? Yeah.... lol (Hmm, sounds like me a few years back )