M.D./Ph.D.: Does getting this dual degree decrease chances of being accepted to surgical specialties

[greg.house1408]

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I have read (and heard) that some surgeons and surgical specialties do not look favorably on M.D./Ph.D. students who apply to their surgical programs. Somehow they feel that the person isn't a "real surgeon." Since I am looking at transplant surgery, would it be better for me to just go for the M.D. and do research, or is it not really a big deal to obtain the M.D./Ph.D. and gain entry to the surgical residency?

 

[postbacpremed87]

I have read (and heard) that some surgeons and surgical specialties do not look favorably on M.D./Ph.D. students who apply to their surgical programs. Somehow they feel that the person isn't a "real surgeon." Since I am looking at transplant surgery, would it be better for me to just go for the M.D. and do research, or is it not really a big deal to obtain the M.D./Ph.D. and gain entry to the surgical residency?

It increases your chances of not being able to enjoy an attending level salary by a few years.

 

[greg.house1408]

Is the trade off of getting both degrees paid for by the MSTP Scholarship equal out to about the same as the salary difference between resident and attending?

 

[BlueLabel]

.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I have read (and heard) that some surgeons and surgical specialties do not look favorably on M.D./Ph.D. students who apply to their surgical programs. Somehow they feel that the person isn't a "real surgeon." Since I am looking at transplant surgery, would it be better for me to just go for the M.D. and do research, or is it not really a big deal to obtain the M.D./Ph.D. and gain entry to the surgical residency?

I have no idea whether or not the notion that those with MD/PhD's actually have obstacles to clear for surgery specialties and there is clear data to support this. What I will say is my former PI was an MD/PhD surgeon whom I knew pretty well and he said he DID think being an MD/PhD caused issues for him trying to apply for programs and he did have problems he thought he wouldn't have if he were only an MD. He didn't regret the decision to get the PhD, but it surprised him the fact that these obstacles actually existed and weren't just noise.

And he's not the only MD/PhD surgeon I know who has told said this to me voluntarily on their own without me specifically asking them if its true. So whether or not it is true, there is a perception amongst surgeons who have been through the process with MD/PhD's that they think it is true, at least amongst the several I have had tell me directly.

But this is only one of many factors to consider. Your reason for wanting a PhD and how you will use it should be a much greater focus. And in reality, there are going to be others with different experiences than them. But I did think that was interesting.

 

[operaman]

With those who have said it may have hurt them in the selection process, I would be really keen to see the rest of their application. I'm having a hard time figuring out how the dual degree could be a liability. Perhaps they mean that it didn't help them as much as they thought it would (which it won't), but going so far as to say it may have hurt them seems a bit much.

I could see it being a liability in getting interviews for community non-academic positions as they would probably (rightly) feel you were simply using them as a backup in case the big academic centers didn't take you, though this could be dealt with easily by a phone call or two from your letter writers. There may be some stigma that the dual degree kids are lacking in social/clinical skills, but again this would be assuaged by solid clinical grades and good letters. Perhaps in the face of below-average clinical grades, the addition of the dual degree could paint a picture of someone better suited to a lab than taking care of patients? It's a stretch, but that's all I've got!

 

[Psai]

By the time you apply, your step 1 score will be out of date

 

[Ismet]

Moving to pre-allo

 

[gyngyn]

Ophthalmology seems partial to them (or at least not disinclined).

 

[doc05]

I guarantee that spending an additional 3-5 years pursuing the PhD will not enhance your technical ability or judgement in the O.R.

Transplant is research-heavy, but you don't need the PhD.

 

[IlyaR]

Pardon my ignorance, but how long is the MD/PhD route? I was under the impression it was 5 years

 

[WedgeDawg]

Pardon my ignorance, but how long is the MD/PhD route? I was under the impression it was 5 years

8 years start to finish unless your project takes longer

 

[deleted577188]

Pardon my ignorance, but how long is the MD/PhD route? I was under the impression it was 5 years

Can be, and usually is longer. We're not talking MD/MPH.

 

[IlyaR]

8 years start to finish unless your project takes longer

Ow

 

[itsogre]

Pardon my ignorance, but how long is the MD/PhD route? I was under the impression it was 5 years

It's usually averages 8 years if you're efficient.

all PhD, MD hopefuls should read the below:
http://www.neuronix.org/

 

[Lil Mick]

The sample size is kind of low, but my MD/PhD program graduates and other MD/PhD friends generally haven't had issues going into the field they hoped to enter. I know someone who did neuroscience and is now in neurosurgery, and there is another in plastic surgery. The key is creating some sort of new method or tech thing in that field during the PhD portion--do some great research, and they'll want you in residency... It's harder if you focus your research on something less applicable to surgery--most MD/PhDs wind up focusing on either the MD side or the PhD side unless they can link the two parts extremely well (i.e. surgeon inventing new surgical tools/methods)...

 

[URHere]

I don't think an MD/PhD would hurt you...but you shouldn't expect it to give you much of a leg up in a surgical specialty. You still need good clinical grades, step scores, and LORs. If you don't have those, don't expect your research to save you.

I know plenty of people who have gone from MD/PhD programs to competitive surgical specialties, but those people would have still been solid applicants if there was no mention of their PhD or their publications anywhere in their application.