Man sodomized in NYC ED

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i agree. The A&O3 is really misleading. If you talk to enough people, they will all tell you stories about someone like this.

IE, off the top of my head: I had a guy with a chronic subdural, completely A&Ox3 but was doing a little finding to answer more detailed questions.


Had a guy brought in 1 day s/p bowel resection with an open belly who left and ended up in the subway station with a foley catheter but no bag who was completely A&Ox3. deemed incompetent by psych within 5 minutes.

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I don't think that an "implied head injury" is going to be enough to show that the patient lacks capacity to refuse care such as the DRE. You really need to be able to document that the pt is cognitively unable to understand the risks of refusal.

You have to remember that you're going to be trying to sell your point of view to 12 people who don't want fingers in their butts either.

Why wouldn't it? Look at the rigors to clearing a c-spine, you need a radiology report saying no fx and dislocations w/o pain....and then if there is pain you need a flex/ex. And this is all without external evidence of trauma to the neck. If you have a laceration to the eye, thats obvious external signs of trauma to the head, so you don't know until the CT is done...and also consider the lucid interval in a SDH. But you are correct, its all about documentation.

Although the whole thing is rather humerous b/c a rectal on a pt under paralytics anyway is halfway to worthless...
 
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Only halfway?
I agree with you. It's completely worthless in a patient given paralytics. The majority of the argument for reason to do a DRE in a head injured patient is assessment of rectal tone, which a chemically paralyzed patient will not have. Therefore, the DRE is even more worthless after this patient was RSI'd and paralyzed.
 
I agree with you. It's completely worthless in a patient given paralytics. The majority of the argument for reason to do a DRE in a head injured patient is assessment of rectal tone, which a chemically paralyzed patient will not have. Therefore, the DRE is even more worthless after this patient was RSI'd and paralyzed.

I always figured that if someone has GCS 15, and doesn't need to be tubed, that they would be able to TELL YOU if they are paralyzed below the waist, obviating the need for the DRE. Either way it's worthless to me. As for "high riding prostate", if I suspect a pelvic fracture they are not getting a foley until the CT-scan is done. Besides, my fingers aren't long enough to to feel the prostate anyway.
 
i'm assuming he got the DRE prior to being paralyzed -- b/c otherwise he really shouldn't know about it...
 
From NY Times

January 16, 2008, 2:00 pm
Forced Rectal Exam Stirs Ethics Questions
By SEWELL CHAN
Under what circumstances can a patient in an emergency room be forced to submit to a procedure that doctors deem to be medically necessary? That question — and the notion of informed consent — is at the heart of a civil case that is about to go to trial in March in State Supreme Court in Manhattan.

Brian Persaud, a 38-year-old construction worker who lives in Brooklyn, asserts that he was forced to undergo a rectal examination after sustaining a head injury in an on-the-job accident at a Midtown construction site on May 20, 2003. Mr. Persaud was taken to the emergency room at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center, where he received eight stitches to his head.

According to a lawsuit he later filed, Mr. Persaud was then told that he needed an immediate rectal examination to determine whether he had a spinal-cord injury.He adamantly objected to the procedure, he said, but was held down as he begged, “Please don’t do that.” As Mr. Persaud resisted, he freed one of his hands and struck a doctor, according to the suit. Then he was sedated, the suit says, with a breathing tube inserted through his mouth.[/COLOR]

After Mr. Persaud regained consciousness, he was arrested, then taken — still in his hospital gown — to be booked on a misdemeanor assault charge. Gerard M. Marrone, who was Mr. Persaud’s lawyer, got the criminal charges dropped, then helped Mr. Persaud file a civil lawsuit against the hospital.

“Psychologically, it changed his life completely,” Mr. Marrone said of the episode. “He hasn’t been able to work. He has absolutely no trust in the system at all: doctors or the police. He has post-traumatic stress syndrome.” Mr. Persaud has been under the care of a psychiatrist who made the diagnosis, Mr. Marrone said.

After several years of legal wrangling, discovery and dueling motions, a State Supreme Court justice, Alice Schlesinger, this week refused to grant the hospital’s petition to dismiss the lawsuit.

The hospital is contesting the lawsuit. “While it would be inappropriate for us to comment on the specifics of the case, we believe it is completely without merit and intend to vigorously contest it,” said a hospital spokesman, Bryan Dotson.

In an interview today, Nancy Berlinger, deputy director at the Hastings Center, a bioethics research institute based in Garrison, N.Y., emphasized that she was not familiar with the specifics of the case but said it appeared to raise important questions about the doctrine of informed consent.

In general, patients may decline medical treatment if they are informed of the consequences of doing so and capable of making such a decision.

“There are special considerations in emergency medicine because of the need to make rapid assessments,” Ms. Berlinger said. “You could have an evident life-threatening injury — someone bleeding out of a carotid artery — or the potential for a life-threatening injury that you can’t see, such as a stroke or spinal-cord injury. It is not always clear what is the patient’s capacity to make decisions, especially if the doctor suspects a head injury.”

A jury or judge evaluating the case, Ms. Berlinger said, might have to answer these questions about the procedure: “Was it medically necessary? Was the patient capable of understanding what was going on and making a decision about it and understanding the consequences of refusal?”

To successfully demonstrate that the hospital was negligent, Ms. Berlinger said, the plaintiff would have to show that the treatment involved a departure from the “standard of care,” that the patient was harmed and that the harm resulted from the departure from the standard.

Lawyers for both sides — the hospital and Mr. Persaud — have lined up doctors to testify. In an Aug. 9, 2007, seven-page medical evaluation, Dr. Irving Friedman, a neurologist and psychiatrist hired by Mr. Persaud’s lawyers, wrote:

Although a rectal exam is part of the routine E.R. evaluation, this patient clearly refused. His life was not in danger. He did not have any signs of abdominal trauma. He had full range of motion and movement of all four extremities. A reasonable analysis of his situation could have been obtained without checking for “rectal tone.”

Dr. Friedman concluded that Mr. Persaud “has been left with extreme anxiety, agitation and depression due to the events at the emergency room.”

But there are complicating factors. Mr. Persaud was evidently driven to the hospital; doctors might have suspected he had injuries despite his ability to walk. He did not have family members present who could have helped him to articulate his medical preferences. Finally, the head injury — requiring stitches — might have led doctors to question Mr. Persaud’s capacity for making an informed decision.

Now the case goes to court. The judge set a trial date of March 31.



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so you get paralyzed and sedated prior to the rectal (b/c you're combative with a head lac and hit a staff member)....and then you're going to claim PTSD based on the rectal (which you really should not feel or remember) if you were paralyzed and sedated....
i think this is a case of someone hoping for a settlement just for the hell of it....
can you imaging how many people could then file suit... all those young guys in the trauma room who scream they don't want a rectal... but get one as part of ATLS?
 
How can a rectal be so traumatic that a person gets PTSD? I compare a rectal on a male to a pap on a female, and you don't see females with PTSD from the exam.
 
How can a rectal be so traumatic that a person gets PTSD? I compare a rectal on a male to a pap on a female, and you don't see females with PTSD from the exam.

You would think so... HOWEVER, one of my attendings actually got sued a few years ago by a woman. Her suit alleged that his pelvic exam was very rough and the "scraping done to test for veneral disease" hurt so much that she got PTSD. Her PTSD was so bad that she could no longer enjoy having sex with men anymore...

Luckily, the lawsuit got thrown out before it ever went to trial. BTW, her cultures were positive for both GC and Chlamydia (which had been properly treated at the time of her ED visit)...

Go figure. If there is a lawyer around, they will find out a way to sue us.
 
You would think so... HOWEVER, one of my attendings actually got sued a few years ago by a woman. Her suit alleged that his pelvic exam was very rough and the "scraping done to test for veneral disease" hurt so much that she got PTSD. Her PTSD was so bad that she could no longer enjoy having sex with men anymore...

Luckily, the lawsuit got thrown out before it ever went to trial. BTW, her cultures were positive for both GC and Chlamydia (which had been properly treated at the time of her ED visit)...

Go figure. If there is a lawyer around, they will find out a way to sue us.

Wow, if that is ever a time for some patient education. STDs can hurt, but if you should ever get pregnant, you cannot sue for labor pains which hurt a lot more.
 
Her suit alleged that his pelvic exam was very rough and the "scraping done to test for veneral disease" hurt so much that she got PTSD. Her PTSD was so bad that she could no longer enjoy having sex with men anymore...

Sounds like he killed two birds with one stone there.
 
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However, there is a difference between a Pap at the GYN clinic & a rectal in the Trauma Bay. If one was resisting a Pap & was then help down & paralyzed to complete it, I think that would be pretty traumatizing.

On the other hand, the entire ATLS work up is traumatizing. You're strapped down, poked with needles, stripped bare in a cold room with bright lights & beeps and possibly have tubes placed where they never ought to go. The important difference between this & torture is that in the Trauma Bay we are trying to help you. If you do not want a work up and you can demonstrate that you are competent & lucid, you should not get the work up. I have had patients with external signs of trauma refuse a work up. Rather than paralyzing these people at the door, I will try to talk them down. Rarely, very rarely, you can save someone an intubation by taking 15 seconds to explain what's happening. Involve family members if they're present - this can really help. But I wont waste more than a minute trying to talk someone into the work up, and I'll wait even less time if they look sick, and even less then that when they're using racial slurs.

One swing at a doc or one loogie in the direction of a nurse though, and you'll be smoking the white owl.
 
Diagnosis: S H A D
Another example of the fine members of the trauma population, and why trauma is a DISEASE.
 
You know what sucks is I highly doubt it was the attending who DRE'd. That means some poor CC4/Intern is gonna be dragged into the middle of this. Welcome to an early education in real world medicine....

Or some poor MSIII.
 
Diagnosis: S H A D
Another example of the fine members of the trauma population, and why trauma is a DISEASE.


S H A D?? I must profess my ignorance...
 
No ****. I agree 100%. If courts won't help him I hope he gets justice other ways. I hope there is a settlement and that is hurts both the doctor and the hospital just so doctors learn some respect for people. Medical care is about people, not flow charts and turf wars over which specialty knows the inside of a rectum the best.

I am a lawyer and here is my two cents on your answer..I would sue you by just making that statement!:D
 
I hope not, because I follow the Shakespearean philosophy.

Make all women wear men's clothing so your male actors don't feel weird playing a female character?
 
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/lawsuit/

Jury Rejects Suit Over Attempted Rectal Exam

"...After only a few minutes, the jury decided that the man, Brian Persaud, failed to prove the chief claim in his civil lawsuit, that he suffered assault and battery at the hands of hospital workers who wanted to perform a rectal exam to ensure that he did not have internal injuries."
 
On the other hand, the entire ATLS work up is traumatizing. You're strapped down, poked with needles, stripped bare in a cold room with bright lights & beeps and possibly have tubes placed where they never ought to go. The important difference between this & torture is that in the Trauma Bay we are trying to help you. If you do not want a work up and you can demonstrate that you are competent & lucid, you should not get the work up. I have had patients with external signs of trauma refuse a work up. Rather than paralyzing these people at the door, I will try to talk them down. Rarely, very rarely, you can save someone an intubation by taking 15 seconds to explain what's happening. Involve family members if they're present - this can really help.

Unfortunately I have a male friend who was raped anally (and more) for several months as a child. He would have freaked out even more than this guy, and would have been unable to tell the staff why. Understandably, he'd get restrained, but that would have seriously re-traumatized him. Maybe the only good that could come out of it is that he'd have to go see someone for counseling about it after that. He hasn't been able to tell a soul about it to this day except me and that's no good.

But I don't think he could make a case out of it; if he was unable to tell the staff what his severe resistance to it was, it's not the staff's fault.
 
I routinely skip the DRE on my trauma exams. The literature shows it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. The only time I routinely perform it is if I'm worried about a rectal/bowel/or spinal injury. Otherwise, what's the point? If the surgeons get pissy, I tell them they're more than welcome to do the exam. It rarely comes up and they almost always decline.
 
I routinely skip the DRE on my trauma exams. The literature shows it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. The only time I routinely perform it is if I'm worried about a rectal/bowel/or spinal injury. Otherwise, what's the point? If the surgeons get pissy, I tell them they're more than welcome to do the exam. It rarely comes up and they almost always decline.
What about the whole "high riding prostate" contraindicating a foley thing?
 
You can add high suspicion of pelvic fracture to my list...

First, how many times have you seen a "high riding prostate" in total?

Second, how many times have you seen it in isolation where there's no other evidence of traumatic injury except a "high riding prostate?"
 
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