Mandatory attendance?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Captainobvious83

New Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
9
Reaction score
3
What schools don't have mandatory attendance? Mostly focused on second year when i'm studying for boards.

Members don't see this ad.
 
I’d buy the MSAR (medical school admission requirements) to answer a question like this. It’s about $30 and has good info all the schools that participate in amcas, including if they have mandatory attendance.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
What schools don't have mandatory attendance? Mostly focused on second year when i'm studying for boards.
I'd turn the question around and simply ask what schools DO have mandatory lecture attendance. Most school treat students as the adult learners they are and have video recorded lectures.

Now, labs, PBL and TBL events are required...there's no escaping that.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
This is really something you have to interview at a school to find out about.

Like my schools website says we have mandatory classes. The reality is the vast majority are not mandatory and aside from a couple hours a week we were free to do whatever the hell we wanted.

But you’d never know that unless you asked an actual student.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Even if a school doesn't have mandatory attendance now, things can change, I interviewed at a DO school and the students told me that a few bays before classes started they implemented a mandatory attendance policy with no warning.
 
Even if a school doesn't have mandatory attendance now, things can change, I interviewed at a DO school and the students told me that a few bays before classes started they implemented a mandatory attendance policy with no warning.
that would absolutely suck. I'm sure they waited to implement to not scare students away. then it was too late.
 
that would absolutely suck. I'm sure they waited to implement to not scare students away. then it was too late.
Ya, the students were not happy about it, even some of the faculty members were unaware that it was happening (from what I herd) until it was implemented. The students I spoke with told me they have been speaking with the dean all year trying to change it, at least for second year students.
 
Those of us who are in admin positions at medical schools prefer that our second year student do NOT focus too much on Step 1 during second year and instead immerse themselves in their education. It is ok that students learn in different ways, and to pick and choose from the optional things in the curriculum in a way that works best for them, but NOT for the reason of doing well on Step 1. Second year should be focused on learning the material needed to well on the wards, and in medicine for the rest of their lives.

That is one advantage of the medical schools that have their students take Step 1 after a year on the wards. That way, the students spend their preclinical years not solely focused on Step 1, which is short-sighted. I understand the pressures though, given that fields like Ortho, ENT, DERM, NEUROSURGERY, etc place undue emphasis on Step 1 scores.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Those of us who are in admin positions at medical schools prefer that our second year student do NOT focus too much on Step 1 during second year and instead immerse themselves in their education. It is ok that students learn in different ways, and to pick and choose from the optional things in the curriculum in a way that works best for them, but NOT for the reason of doing well on Step 1. Second year should be focused on learning the material needed to well on the wards, and in medicine for the rest of their lives.

That is one advantage of the medical schools that have their students take Step 1 after a year on the wards. That way, the students spend their preclinical years not solely focused on Step 1, which is short-sighted. I understand the pressures though, given that fields like Ortho, ENT, DERM, NEUROSURGERY, etc place undue emphasis on Step 1 scores.
Whaaaat?

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Those of us who are in admin positions at medical schools prefer that our second year student do NOT focus too much on Step 1 during second year and instead immerse themselves in their education. It is ok that students learn in different ways, and to pick and choose from the optional things in the curriculum in a way that works best for them, but NOT for the reason of doing well on Step 1. Second year should be focused on learning the material needed to well on the wards, and in medicine for the rest of their lives.

That is one advantage of the medical schools that have their students take Step 1 after a year on the wards. That way, the students spend their preclinical years not solely focused on Step 1, which is short-sighted. I understand the pressures though, given that fields like Ortho, ENT, DERM, NEUROSURGERY, etc place undue emphasis on Step 1 scores.
There needs to be a mix and curriculum committees should acknowledge that almost every specialty requires a certain step score. Teaching presentations of diseases is important but many treatment regimens change by the time we hit the wards.

Keeping the students too busy so they can’t do well on Step is terrible to the students and is completely unfair, as it in turn severely limits what specialty they can choose for the rest of their lives
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
There needs to be a mix and curriculum committees should acknowledge that almost every specialty requires a certain step score. Teaching presentations of diseases is important but many treatment regimens change by the time we hit the wards.

Keeping the students too busy so they can’t do well on Step is terrible to the students and is completely unfair, as it in turn severely limits what specialty they can choose for the rest of their lives
Certainly students should not be kept too busy to study for Step exams. Taking Step 1 after the clinical year does seem to work well for most students - as long as there is adequate dedicated time to study for the exam after the clinical year. Clinical context does seem to help students know what basic science information is relevant and likely to be on Step 1, but a minimum of 8 dedicated weeks is needed to study IMO.

At my T20 institution, we have had students match very well, even in competitive specialties, even with mediocre board scores. But they do need to have done extraordinarily well on all rotations, esp away sub internships, and their research needs to be top notch. Some even get funding for a research year. It does seem that students, especially those from middle and lower tier schools, do have an unfair disadvantage and NEED to get a top score to get into a competitive specialty.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Certainly students should not be kept too busy to study for Step exams. Taking Step 1 after the clinical year does seem to work well for most students - as long as there is adequate dedicated time to study for the exam after the clinical year. Clinical context does seem to help students know what basic science information is relevant and likely to be on Step 1, but a minimum of 8 dedicated weeks is needed to study IMO.

At my T20 institution, we have had students match very well, even in competitive specialties, even with mediocre board scores. But they do need to have done extraordinarily well on all rotations, esp away sub internships, and their research needs to be top notch. Some even get funding for a research year. It does seem that students, especially those from middle and lower tier schools, do have an unfair disadvantage and NEED to get a top score to get into a competitive specialty.

If you’re at a top20 of course they match well without stellar board scores. Pedigree rules the world. But to pretend like it’s the same for all students nationwide is very narrow-sighted.

I agree with you that the system you described is the better one, but with the way that medical education is today, learning extensive clinical medicine while also trying to get basic pathology down for step is counter-productive to efficient matching for 90% of the population.

Most schools also don’t effectively use their students time during this period as well. If done right, it works fine, but most don’t have it down and if something is getting cut to boost a board score, it’s by far ECs and class lectures (at least the minutiae).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Do keep in mind that 1) you have to pass all your M2 exams in order to take Step 1 and 2) the mandatory attendance is meant to expose you to what you need to know for the exams and the boards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Certainly students should not be kept too busy to study for Step exams. Taking Step 1 after the clinical year does seem to work well for most students - as long as there is adequate dedicated time to study for the exam after the clinical year. Clinical context does seem to help students know what basic science information is relevant and likely to be on Step 1, but a minimum of 8 dedicated weeks is needed to study IMO.

At my T20 institution, we have had students match very well, even in competitive specialties, even with mediocre board scores. But they do need to have done extraordinarily well on all rotations, esp away sub internships, and their research needs to be top notch. Some even get funding for a research year. It does seem that students, especially those from middle and lower tier schools, do have an unfair disadvantage and NEED to get a top score to get into a competitive specialty.

Honestly, schools need to adapt to the resources that are available these days (sketchy, pathoma, physeo). If a lecturer fails to do that, we won’t pay attention because we already got your informatuon in a more concise, memorable format in a quarter of the time. instead of blaming students for checking out at lecture, schools should be evaluating how they can bring value to a modern curriculum.

Repeating the same exact lecture you recorded last year seems like a waste of everyone’s time...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I second that you need to actually interview at a school before you'll really know if they have mandatory lecture. My school for has all mandatory lectures 1st semester, then the 2nd half of first year and all of 2nd year are non-mandatory, except for OMM lab and a few lectures like weekly Friday guest speakers, as well as skills labs.

TBH mandatory lectures during 1st semester is a good thing. You don't yet know exactly how to study, and need some discipline in your life to get used to the grind. After you know you can pass the material, then you're free to see if anything works better for you 2nd semester and beyond.
 
TBH mandatory lectures during 1st semester is a good thing. You don't yet know exactly how to study, and need some discipline in your life to get used to the grind. After you know you can pass the material, then you're free to see if anything works better for you 2nd semester and beyond.

You could have non mandatory lectures first semester, but go to class until you know how to study. For some, that might be 3 weeks, in which case most of the 1st semester mandatory attendance would still be a hindrance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
You could have non mandatory lectures first semester, but go to class until you know how to study. For some, that might be 3 weeks, in which case most of the 1st semester mandatory attendance would still be a hindrance.

Unless you get lucky and your first way of studying turns out to be the right way for you, you're going to switch it up A LOT. It took me until 2nd semester to figure out how to study efficiently, and some in my class still hadn't figured it out by the time we got to dedicated. You'd be surprised at the amount of students in your class who would just f*ck off during 1st semester thinking they could skate through if they didn't have the discipline that attending mandatory lectures helps to establish.
 
Unless you get lucky and your first way of studying turns out to be the right way for you, you're going to switch it up A LOT. It took me until 2nd semester to figure out how to study efficiently, and some in my class still hadn't figured it out by the time we got to dedicated. You'd be surprised at the amount of students in your class who would just f*ck off during 1st semester thinking they could skate through if they didn't have the discipline that attending mandatory lectures helps to establish.

Why should it be up to the school to dictate that though? It is the students' responsibility to get the most out of their study time, right? And my point still stands, because I've met students (MS1s and MS2s) on the interview trail that said they stopped going to class after a few weeks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Why should it be up to the school to dictate that though? It is the students' responsibility to get the most out of their study time, right? And my point still stands, because I've met students (MS1s and MS2s) on the interview trail that said they stopped going to class after a few weeks.

I want to be clear that I'm not saying every school should make it mandatory for attendance at any point, just that I understand the merits of mandatory attendance during the beginning of first year. Personally if it hadn't been mandatory, I know that I wouldn't have had the self discipline to get up early and start studying like I needed to. I would have slept til 10 or so and gotten a leisurely start to my day around 1pm, and failed out.

You also need to keep in mind that when you're out interviewing they're purposely introducing you to the cream of the crop at your school. The people who have been excelling from day 1, and are therefore outliers and are not the model for your typical med student day. They aren't showing you AverageMD/DO who's struggling to pass gross anatomy lab practicals.

Edit: Also in regards to them dictating mandatory class attendance, I support the 1st semester model because there have been studies that show that if students are struggling, they're more likely to pull it together if they go to class than if they didn't. For students who are doing fine and excelling, it's been shown to make no difference. So those schools that make it mandatory do it in order to cater to the lowest common denominator, so to speak.
 
You have to run your own race. Some students can process information VERY rapidly. Most cant on arrival to med school. Those who can can play xbox and watch netflix for hours, while most have to learn how to study better and be more disciplined. Schools have good comlex scores with mandatory attendance. So it's all about fit, how you learn and curriculla the school offers, PBL, Lecture, TBL, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I second that you need to actually interview at a school before you'll really know if they have mandatory lecture. My school for has all mandatory lectures 1st semester, then the 2nd half of first year and all of 2nd year are non-mandatory, except for OMM lab and a few lectures like weekly Friday guest speakers, as well as skills labs.

TBH mandatory lectures during 1st semester is a good thing. You don't yet know exactly how to study, and need some discipline in your life to get used to the grind. After you know you can pass the material, then you're free to see if anything works better for you 2nd semester and beyond.
I cant see how mandatory lecture can ever be a good thing. Like ever. Unless youre predominantly an auditory learner
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I cant see how mandatory lecture can ever be a good thing. Like ever. Unless youre predominantly an auditory learner
I've heard a case where a certain school board average has gone up significantly after implementing mandatory attendance to some classes. So you can never say never.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I've heard a case where a certain school board average has gone up significantly after implementing mandatory attendance to some classes. So you can never say never.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile
Before we had recorded lectures and thus much higher lecture attendance, I noticed that the weakest students tended NOT to come to lectures. But the world has moved on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Top