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[erg923]

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Perhaps the "pressure" you speak of is actually completely benign. Most people are heterosexual, so it's no surprise that this is the default assumption.

 

[LupaCupcake]

I think things of this nature can strengthen a marriage and really prove that someone supports you. Would you rather meet them before you have the spiffy title of doctor or after? hehe. "You just want me because people call me doctor" *giggle*

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Perhaps the "pressure" you speak of is actually completely benign. Most people are heterosexual, so it's no surprise that this is the default assumption.

I spoke to an anthropologist about this today, she did her Ph.D. in cultural anthropology and echoed the same information I mentioned. Statistically speaking, there seems to be more heterosexual relationships vs. same sex, but regardless of the quantity, it still doesn't negate the macro-level level trends, perceptions, etc. that are involved in this population (which would be great to look at some Census data, but even that is skewed and not very reliable when looking at same sex partnerships). So, while "you" may not see this in your environment, your immediate concentric zone, it doesn't mean it that it doesn't happen, even at a robust level.

 

[erg923]

I suppose you're right because I really have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Well...

I bet society could learn a great deal from the ancient Romans, same sex (Man-boy) relationships were a way/phase of life.

I'd like to know the cultural anthropologists take on human relationships in general: What attracts humans and maintains bonds (regardless of society and religiously imposed sanctions on who we have relationships with, i.e., female, male, LGBT-Q)? Now that's interesting.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Well...

I bet society could learn a great deal from the ancient Romans, same sex (Man-boy) relationships were a way/phase of life.

I posit that we can learn a lot from Arrested Development's Motherboy episode:

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Some great studies on tribal communities in Indonesia that actually practice man-boy relations...they initiate boyhood maturation with oral insemination. Check it out: "Gender and Society"...book has some good stuff in there.

 

[psych84]

Some great studies on tribal communities in Indonesia that actually practice man-boy relations...they initiate boyhood maturation with oral insemination. Check it out: "Gender and Society"...book has some good stuff in there.

I studied about that in my Psychology and Families course.

 

[psych84]

I suppose you're right because I really have no clue what you are talking about.

An example historically could be the idea that a women who shows great affection for another female is expressing great longing for a man/and is really desperate for a male in her life. That would be an example of a hetero-centric society in the past. Obviously you can see how that would impact the standing of women who were lesbian.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I'm confused by the discussion regarding heterosexuality and homosexuality. I think that stating that heterosexual relationships and marriages are the majority in our current culture is accurate. That should be a value neutral statement. When we start asking more questions about this such as: should it be the only relationship pattern, is it a better relationship pattern, why do some culture have different relationship patterns; then we get into more philosophical, sociological, and moral questions fairly rapidly.

 

[CheetahGirl]

An example historically could be the idea that a women who shows great affection for another female is expressing great longing for a man/and is really desperate for a male in her life. That would be an example of a hetero-centric society in the past. Obviously you can see how that would impact the standing of women who were lesbian.

Well that assumes a patrilocal structure, where man is the leader of the family. A woman may go towards another woman for female-ness. Not male-ness. And likewise. I guy could run from a bossy mother towards an understanding male. But I am stereo-typing here. And that (stereotyping mindest) is generally a no-no.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Regardless of the stance one takes in the type of relationship they may have (i.e. I know several gay couples who are a monogamous 4-some), it really does present interesting information in how relationships may be good for others at some point in time of their life but not others. This has a real direct implication in the aforementioned question raised by psych84, he is wanting to know if people are married in grad school and essentially how is everyone "doing" with their marriage. The short answer would be "it always depends." Psychology's life story right?

I know that if I were asking psych84's question, a personal thought I would have interjected is: what elements in your relationship allowed for its longevity/prosperity? I think these are important things to consider seeing how, for example some couples (regardless of orientation) love a fairly independent lifestyle (e.g. independent banks, cars, etc.), essentially everything is divided in many regards whereas others are very much into the sharing aspects (along a continuum if you will), then there are the co-dependents, the serial monogamists, and the list goes on.

Depending on what you find from answering a question such as this, this could help facilitate how comfortable you feel in "getting out there," how you as a couple deal with adversity, boundaries being set, variables that are fixed and variables that may be more continuous within your relationship.

Oh...and looking into the cog-neuroscience of this would be awesome. This is why social cognitive neuroscience is peaking these days 😛

 

[psych84]

I like how you are so excited about this theme, CogNeuroGuy 😀

 

[LupaCupcake]

Even with heterosexual relationships you encounter variables that are not social norms . For example, what about a polyamorous couple?

One of my childhood friends is a Pastor, has a degree in theology, very successful man with a nice home. Yet he was very depressed and suicidal at one point, he had to be admitted to a hospital. This was all because he was homosexual and he felt so much pressure from his religious friends and family to follow that societal norm and find a nice Pastor's wife. He hated who he was and thought he was wrong because of his perception how everyone was viewing him. At this point he is very happy and has a husband. He even does the occasional bible study while in drag and his church loves him because they know he doesn't judge anyone. I love his personality and how open he is , but at one point in his life that pressure to fill his social role of Church Pastor almost broke him because everyone wanted him to fit a mold that was not him.

What elements allow for a long marriage...hmmm. Mine is on the rocks as you know, but we have been married 8 years. If I had to pinpoint what got us to this point, I would say a deep commitment to our family. My focus has always been taking care of him and our daughter. His focus has had issues, but it always came back to ensuring his daughter and his wife were okay and taken care of. We have a bond that doesn't break easy, even when we are contemplating divorce that bond is very much present, that commitment to ensure all 3 of us are okay and that is why even if I signed divorce papers today I would not kick him out. He would stay with me until he was secure enough to go on his own. It is about companionship and being a powerful team rather than lovey dovey-ness or unbridled passion. Not to say that passion is not important, but that is not enough to maintain a relationship long term.

This post is making me think about my husband, ex, maybe ex....whatever I should call him. I will call him A. This post is making me think about A a lot.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Sometimes I wonder if I chose the right path for graduate school....because I loved studying this, I think they are a lot of crossovers from the varying disciplines in the social and behavioral sciences that could do well to converge on a topic such as this. But yeah...I really like this. 😛

 

[Pragma]

To answer the original question: married before grad school. Still together. Grad school did make it hard finance/time wise, but we just prioritized each other and got creative. Waited for kids until I was making good money.

 

[463951]

Even with heterosexual relationships you encounter variables that are not social norms.

Yep, if you are a married heterosexual couple without children (and state that you don't want children when asked), a lot of people find this to be very strange (and tell you that you will change your mind).

 

[G Costanza]

Yep, if you are a married heterosexual couple without children (and state that you don't want children when asked), a lot of people find this to be very strange (and tell you that you will change your mind).

X1000

How about, "So when are you going to have a family?" Weird. I guess that means my wife and I aren't family. She'll be surprised to hear that.

Or, "I couldn't wait any longer to have kids. I was tired of living for myself and being selfish" Uhm...I'll just go home now and spend the rest of the day thinking about how I can maximize my own pleasure. No time for any of these unpaid practicums.

 

[LupaCupcake]

I didn't think about it, it is almost expected that you have kids if you are married and if you have just one then people wonder when you are having more because one simply is not enough lol

 

[erg923]

In the "heteronormative, judeochristian" culture that is the US, it might important to recognize that having children is the natural extension of matrimony and is actually the underlying motivation for it. So, again, not surprising that many expect this to occur. I really think people are taking all this stuff way to personally.

 

[psych84]

I really think people are taking all this stuff way to personally.

How we define family has great implications. If the definition is restrictive, that type of family not only becomes the norm statistically, but it has the potential to restrict other peoples rights and delegitimize their status. We are all limited by our own biases and world-view, the types of research questions we ask, the methods we choose to study it, all depends on our background. If we too easily recognize one way as legitimate, we would be doing a major diservice for our society and delegitimizing many individuals.

 

[erg923]

You are intellectualizing. I get the academics of it all. Trust me. K?

What I was taking about was being personally surprised or "offended" that people may be surprised that a married couple does not want children or that a married couple is not monogamous. Its simply, statistically, not "the norm," right? That's not a value judgment. Just a factual statement. When people choose to live far outside a societal norm, then I think you can expect people to be somewhat surprised and even pose a couple questions about it here or there.

 

[G Costanza]

In the "heteronormative, judeochristian" culture that is the US, it might important to recognize that having children is the natural extension of matrimony and is actually the underlying motivation for it. So, again, not surprising that many expect this to occur. I really think people are taking all this stuff way to personally.

Sometimes it's hard not to take things personally when you hear the same underlying message of, "there's something wrong with you" on a regular basis.

It gets old having people expect you to explain to them something that's none of their business..."You've been married for 10 years and don't have kids? Why not?" Imagine what it's like for a couple that desperately wants a child but is unable to have one to hear, "When are you going to have kids? You don't know what you're missing." It's like salt in a wound from a smiling friend. And I could give many more examples. I just recently had a friend tell me that I can't fully understand God's relationship to humans because I'm not a father. How is that not personal? How is that not offensive? When you add up the ridiculous things people say, it wears on you.
So instead of suggesting that us childless folks are "taking all this stuff way to personally", I might spend some time thinking about what it's like to be without children and how it feels for society to quickly put you into an "other" status. I've had clients with a presenting problem of this very issue. Imagine if I was thinking "you're just taking it too personal."

 

[erg923]

I'm sure that gets hard. But if you are choosing (as opposed to difficulty with conception) to do something so outside societal norms, I think you should expect some amount of surprise from others. This doesn't mean it won't get on your nerves or hurt your feelings, you are right about that. But I don't think it's realistic to expect a utopian society that is totally unquestioning of social norm deviations. That's just not realistic.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I agree with the assertion that when you do something outside the norm, then people, culture, society will challenge it in a variety of ways. This creates distress for the person doing something different. This dynamic has played out throughout history. When to challenge the norm and how to challenge it is always a great question, but complaining about the dynamic is probably a waste of time.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Sometimes I wonder if I chose the right path for graduate school....because I loved studying this, I think they are a lot of crossovers from the varying disciplines in the social and behavioral sciences that could do well to converge on a topic such as this. But yeah...I really like this. 😛

I love looking at social constructs and dynamics as well. My dissertation was an ethnography which is a construct from sociology. I feel that having a sociological perspective helps with my clinical work especially as I strive to understand an individuals own perspective of their role in various levels of culture and how that plays out in their core beliefs or paradigms which may be driving some of their distress.

 

[Ollie123]

I'm sure that gets hard. But if you are choosing (as opposed to difficulty with conception) to do something so outside societal norms, I think you should expect some amount of surprise from others. This doesn't mean it won't get on your nerves or hurt your feelings, you are right about that. But I don't think it's realistic to expect a utopian society that is totally unquestioning of social norm deviations. That's just not realistic.

I generally agree that "outliers" will likely always encounter some degree of confusion regarding their role. I don't want to say it goes with the territory since depending on what we are discussing it may or may not be a choice, but I do think some degree of confusion is a natural human response that is unlikely to ever go away. Even as the "counter-culture" becomes the norm, new counter-cultures will emerge and we'll see the same pattern repeat itself (as it has many times over to get us to the current state).

That said, it comes in varying degrees. I'm not remotely offended if people ask my wife and I when we are going to have kids, even though the answer is "Maybe at some point or not". I do think its a really weird question since I have yet to see ANYONE provide a definitive answer to that question regardless of whether or not they plan to have kids. I have a number of snarky responses I offer, depending on my relationship with the individual asking. That said, some folks are more aggressive about it (e.g. the one G Constanza mentioned "I couldn't wait any longer to have kids. I was tired of living for myself and being selfish"). Since I know you are religious Erg, it seems akin to a colleague asking you about your religious beliefs and then saying "I used to be religious, but I just got so tired of having to shut off the rational part of my brain and pretend I'm not educated". To be clear, I say that as an example, not because I believe it (though it IS one my go-to's of the aforementioned snarky responses). Would you take offense to that?

Basically, confusion/curiosity or expectations of the "norm" don't bother me. In many cases, I do genuinely believe its just a cognitive heuristic. Sure its not ideal, but I think its unrealistic to expect otherwise. Heuristics exist for pretty much everything and its really the only way we manage to function in the world. I've found most folks are at worst mildly irritated by situations that just involve confusion or curiosity, but generally understanding and happy to explain/discuss with an open-minded individual. Its when it crosses over into implying superiority or telling others how to live that folks start to get offended.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I run into rude, judgmental, insensitive, and egocentric people all the time. They say offensive things. My strategy is: a) try not to be one and b) try to avoid them.

 

[463951]

I've found most folks are at worst mildly irritated by situations that just involve confusion or curiosity, but generally understanding and happy to explain/discuss with an open-minded individual. Its when it crosses over into implying superiority or telling others how to live that folks start to get offended.

Very well said. I'm perfectly fine with discussing whether or not I want to have kids with open-minded individuals. And I expect that family members and friends will ask me questions about this. Like you said, the curiosity doesn't bother me. It's when strangers inform me that I am screwed if I don't have children before the age of 30 that I become somewhat irate. And I have snarky responses ready for those people. People I have just met who ask me, "do you have kids?" and when I say no, they launch into how children are the meaning of life and how I am missing out on it. Or acquaintances telling me it's my "duty" to provide children for my husband. It used to bother me a lot, but now I expect these types of questions/statements, and it is what it is. I would be surprised if people didn't question my "married, no children, two cat" household status. 😉 But yeah, when people cross that line and begin to tell me how to live my life, I do get offended. But not nearly as much as I used to.

 

[LupaCupcake]

This made me think of a situation that actually happened where my family was judged by those in behavioral health.

I had an incident at work one time involving my husband, his PTSD had been triggered and he was already tail sliding into a manic state before this happened. His paranoia was worse than ever, intense militant aggression that would scare the hell out of most people because in his mind he was seeing others as the enemy, it was not fun. Well.........I am going to omit some details, he showed up at my job, but I had left. I had clocked out early that day and was actually picking up my child and racing to the magistrates office to have an IVC order put on him because of some things. I had no idea where he was....he had taken off and I was scared what he might do. I know how he can get and this was the worst one ever.

My phone rings and it is my boss. She says your husband was just in the lobby of the hospital, threatening staff, videotaping everyone with his phone, yelling "the patient advocate is my wife", he postured intake, covered in sweat and other details that I will leave out. He ended up taking off and ran away from my hospital and the cops were able to find him a couple hours later low crawling by some train tracks close to our home. You can imagine what people were saying about my family when I returned to work. I was the talk of the hospital and people that should be empathetic to behavioral health were slamming my husband verbally and I even heard a comment like "I wonder if he hits her and she just takes it". I went to every staff member that he threatened or witnessed the event and apologized on behalf of my family and explained why he was in the state. I was open and honest about everything with staff and turned it around to show them that I am not only empathetic to patients, I am empathetic to the families because I understand what it is like.

My family was judged and those that I hoped would be understanding of his state, were spreading rumors and talking bad about my family.

ANYWAYS. that is my story for the day lol

 

[erg923]

Is your husband ok with you telling very specific details of his story on a very public forum?

 

[LupaCupcake]

I was wondering who would ask that hehe.

He gives people more details than I do, he doesn't care at all. He posts very intricate stories and details on facebook, forums that anyone can see so on and so forth. We have talked about this in the past because ppl asked me questions and I wanted to see how he felt about it being discussed. He will tell you every medication he has tried, his diagnosis, he really does not care who knows. He tells people all the time. I wouldn't say anything if he did 🙂 so no worries, but I appreciate the concern of his privacy.

 

[erg923]

Ok. Well, employers will discriminate if a person has a history if violent, aggressive and/or threatening behavior (whatever the underlying reason)..and rightfully so. I just don't think its prudent to be airing others dirty laundry on a public forum, especially if that person is the father of your children.

 

[LupaCupcake]

I do understand your perspective, completely.

I look at it like this, I found it pertinent to the theme of pressure and discrimination towards a family that is not "perfect" and what others expect as normal. I also don't look at it as dirty laundry and neither does he. We view it as a very difficult time that tried us and tried those around us, but we feel no reason to hide it or act like it is something we should be ashamed about. With that being said, certain details we do omit to others , but such is to be expected.

 

[sockit]

Very well said. I'm perfectly fine with discussing whether or not I want to have kids with open-minded individuals. And I expect that family members and friends will ask me questions about this. Like you said, the curiosity doesn't bother me. It's when strangers inform me that I am screwed if I don't have children before the age of 30 that I become somewhat irate. And I have snarky responses ready for those people. People I have just met who ask me, "do you have kids?" and when I say no, they launch into how children are the meaning of life and how I am missing out on it. Or acquaintances telling me it's my "duty" to provide children for my husband. It used to bother me a lot, but now I expect these types of questions/statements, and it is what it is. I would be surprised if people didn't question my "married, no children, two cat" household status. 😉 But yeah, when people cross that line and begin to tell me how to live my life, I do get offended. But not nearly as much as I used to.

The thing is it's not that these are just cool cognitions. There are values bound up in them, that's what makes them effective as norms. People invest themselves into, and shape themselves through, normed practices and ideals. Beyond that, they have to justify themselves to themselves. This means that outliers aren't just perceived as heuristic 'blips', but as potentially dangerous inasmuch as they can destabilize those values, and a person's sense of self. So outliers are mocked, derided, or in the least case, patronized, if they're seen as otherwise conforming to norms.

As far as coping with it, really I think the best thing is to spend time with other outliers, in order to validate your own choices and just spend more time feeling comfortable. Much easier, then to be tolerant of judging others, or take on the goal of educating them if you want to.

e.g. if not having children is an issue, spend time with other child-free couples. there's even a national organization for that, i think, child-free something, sorry can't think of it.

all of this will be harder outside of metropolitan centres.

 

[463951]

The thing is it's not that these are just cool cognitions. There are values bound up in them, that's what makes them effective as norms. People invest themselves into, and shape themselves through, normed practices and ideals. Beyond that, they have to justify themselves to themselves. This means that outliers aren't just perceived heuristic 'blips', but as potentially dangerous inasmuch as they can destabilize those values, and a person's sense of self. So outliers are mocked, derided, or in the least case, patronized, if they're seen as otherwise conforming to norms.

As far as coping with it, really I think the best thing is to spend time with other outliers, in order to validate your own choices and just spend more time feeling comfortable. Much easier, then to be tolerant of judging others, or take on the goal of educating them if you want to.

e.g. if not having children is an issue, spend time with other child-free couples. there's even a national organization for that, i think, child-free something, sorry can't think of it.

all of this will be harder outside of metropolitan centres.

My husband and I probably do spend more time with our friends without children, because there are certain restaurants or certain vacations that just aren't conducive to children. However, I have a lot of friends with children, and I also spend a great deal of time with them as well (and sometimes their kids).

I have heard of that organization, I can't think of the name either, I know somebody who went to meetings, because she really wanted to have children and was having difficulties conceiving. The meetings seemed to help her.

For me, it's not that I'm unable to have children, it's just that at this point in my life, I don't want children (for a bunch of reasons), and neither does my husband.

Luckily, I have always lived in metropolitan areas (even moved to one for internship), so that definitely makes it a lot easier. There are a lot of like-minded people in the areas where I have lived.

 

[erg923]

My husband and I probably do spend more time with our friends without children, because there are certain restaurants or certain vacations that just aren't conducive to children. However, I have a lot of friends with children, and I also spend a great deal of time with them as well (and sometimes their kids).

I have heard of that organization, I can't think of the name either, I know somebody who went to meetings, because she really wanted to have children and was having difficulties conceiving. The meetings seemed to help her.

For me, it's not that I'm unable to have children, it's just that at this point in my life, I don't want children (for a bunch of reasons), and neither does my husband.

Luckily, I have always lived in metropolitan areas (even moved to one for internship), so that definitely makes it a lot easier. There are a lot of like-minded people in the areas where I have lived.

If one doesn't want kids, then I agree whole heartily that you shouldn't. I think the reactions you see are not so much based on "not conforming to society" or religious beliefs about the sacrament of marriage, but rather a marveling type of curiosity...largely due to the fact that the desire to reproduce is so biologically hardwired throughout all cultures (obviously, or else we would die out).

 

[psych84]

I think sometimes the "surprise" or "shock" is jealousy. All of us have to make sacrifices, so some people who chose to have kids instead of a career, might be trying to over-compensate by being shocked that others also wouldn't make the same decision.

 

[smalltownpsych]

My wife has children from a previous marriage who are grown and I have no children of my own. There was a time when I wanted to have children but I made a strongly committed values based-choice not to. When people ask about it, I tell them and have yet to have anyone challenge me on it in any way. My mom is the one person who might wish otherwise but that is mainly for selfish reasons of loving grand-kids which I get because I do have one of those too.

 

[erg923]

I think sometimes the "surprise" or "shock" is jealousy.

No. I dont think so.

Good job trying to go Freudian though...

 

[smalltownpsych]

I think sometimes the "surprise" or "shock" is jealousy. All of us have to make sacrifices, so some people who chose to have kids instead of a career, might be trying to over-compensate by being shocked that others also wouldn't make the same decision.

I would say the opposite is true. Most people I know with children feel so rewarded by the relationship, attachment is hard-wired into us humans as being intrinsically rewarding, that they truly are surprised when others don't get to experience it. Drug users actually feel the same way.

 

[463951]

If one doesn't want kids, then I agree whole heartily that you shouldn't. I think the reactions you see are not so much based on "not conforming to society" or religious beliefs about the sacrament of marriage, but rather a marveling type of curiosity...largely due to the fact that the desire to reproduce is so biologically hardwired throughout all cultures (obviously, or else we would die out).

I would agree with this. I am always curious when I meet other couples who don't want kids. My curiosity isn't piqued because I don't want children, I have always been curious, even before when I just assumed I would want kids someday. It's the unwanted criticism from strangers that gets on my nerves (e.g., "why did you get married if you aren't going to have children?") 😉

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

My husband ideally wants kids (2+ to be exact in his words). Personally, I am iffy and still continue to have discussions about it in passing. We are more concentrated on creating a foundation for us, we would certainly not want to interject the responsibilities of parenting into such a time until we are ready (mentally, financially, etc.). I see the value and the inherent "evolutionary" perspective of having children, but we also tend to think in a less "traditional" way (MCParent, don't look too deep into this word, just face value 😉). Part of me was educated in the psychological paradigms of human behavior and relationships, the other was more macro-level (e.g sociological), so while I see the whole "we were meant to do XYZ"...I typically like to reframe this and think of other motives or rationales to having children.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I also find that I have a limited amount of compassion that I can provide and since I work with kids quite a bit, I sometimes think that it would have been hard for me to meet the emotional needs of my own children as well as the ones I see for treatment. My wife agrees with that and will say that I listen to my patients all day long but don't want to hear about her problems!

 

[psych84]

No. I dont think so.

Good job trying to go Freudian though...

You are saying that NEVER be the case?

At some point we all have to justify our existence. In my eyes, I don't see how ANY person, whether they choose kids or career, doesn't have regrets. (ie why didn't i do that other thing)

 

[erg923]

Of course. But do I ever regret having my children? Absolutely not. Never.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Of course. But do I ever regret having my children? Absolutely not. Never.

That goes to what i was saying about how people with children find that experience immensely rewarding. Hell, I feel that way about my step-kids and nieces and nephews. Can only imagine how it would feel to be a parent.

 

[psych84]

Of course. But do I ever regret having my children? Absolutely not. Never.

You don't have to regret having your children to on some level not feel somewhat envious of someone who has a really fun/cool career.

 

[smalltownpsych]

The people that envy my career the most are the MA level providers who wish they had become a psychologist!

 

[erg923]

You don't have to regret having your children to on some level not feel somewhat envious of someone who has a really fun/cool career.

I have both.