Married to a ....... CRNA

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narcusprince said:
Well fellas. Thought I would come clean. Got hitched this month to a CRNA. Life is great! Looks like the force is with me. See yall at the ASA. Cannot miss me with the big smile!
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Traitor..... Shoulda married an anesthesiologist...! 🙄

J/K... congrats dude. Sitting here doing a TFN on a Friday afternoon. Looking throught the chart, I see an old anesthesia record signed by my wife.

Just don't tell her how to tape the tube... That's a bad move. :punch:
 
M -

Congrats! Someone tamed tbe beast?!?

I start fellowship at CCF in July...big shoes to fill...
 
Hawaiian Bruin said:
Since crnas are going to be all of our bosses anyway, I salute you for being an early adopter.
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What do you mean "going to be"? At Cleveland Clinic they already are.
 
I wish my wife was a crna instead of a stay-at-home mom.
 
I too am a member of that club for 7 years. Best decision I ever made. Congrats!
 
I'm proud of you also for admitting it. There are some here that keep that on the DL.
 
This is great, congrats! I'm engaged to a nurse who is on track towards becoming a CRNA. I'm totally encouraging her. I'm currently an anesthesia resident, so the way I see it -- anesthesia is a win-win field for me. Even if us MDs lose more ground to CRNAs ... it's still $$ in my pocket.

If you can't beat em... join em!
 
Money is money guys. Secondary income from a working spouse is great.

Remember one of best things about being married to CRNA is flexible work schedule along with pretty good pay.

Honestly it's near impossible to find a job as anesthesiologist working 3 days a week (12 hour days) for 150-180k that I know many crnas make that includes many 3-4 days weekends plus vacation.
 
Hello everyone, I am trying to find the right thread to post this in, and I think this might be it as some of you are already physicians and have significant others who are nurses. A little bit of a background: top of my class in high school, went straight to UCLA-beginning of second year of undergrad, sister passes away from car accident, dad dies the next year of mi. Grades drop like crazy, especially the premed science grades. Anyway, I gather myself the last two years of UCLA, take LVN night classes during that time thinking my md days are over, become an LVN, get my BS in neuroscience, then go on to a year of RN. Become an RN, work, open my own business (home health), go back to school become an Adult NP, work some more, go back to school finish Critical Care NP certification. Here I am, contemplating medical school. I love what I do, I have helped save many lives, but I hunger for the sciences which I feel I didn't get as much in nursing or np school. I find myself going back to the books after an interesting case, reading the microbiology of what happened. But, I want that to be in the back of my mind always, like all MD students have when practicing (I'm assuming). I am considering CRNA (fascinated by anesthesiology since the first rotations in rn school). But, I might still feel inadequate and all my schooling might feel like a waste and leave me depressed wanting for more. I am 33 now, married to a loving, caring Dentist, and we have a 1 year old boy. Am i crazy for wanting medicine at this stage in my life? Will being a crna be mentally challenging and is it as respected as anesthesiology? I know if i go that route, I'll go all the way to dnap. But is that worth it? or should i go back and improve my science grade and give med school a shot. I am at a cross roads in my life, I really need sound guidance from the the tried and true. Thank you.
 
not really, we have people older than you during ms1. some with a lot more young kids than you do. med school should be easier for you too since you've been exposed to healthcare stuff. you sound like you really like medicine. i say go for it. you have excellent backup anyway in case med school doesn't work out and you drop out.
 
Go CRNA route. Much more bang for the buck considering your age. Becoming a doctor these days is way overrated.
 
Wanted to add, money is luckily not an issue for me. Husband and I have made great money with lots of investments, so we are extremely fortunate to have secured our future. But, I do burn out (I think that's the definition of being a nurse/np these days); that's my only concern and going back to do all those science courses...is it worth it? Or is CRNA challenging enough?

Another concern I have is all this talk of CRNA market being saturated. Will that be an issue, say in the next 5-10 years? thanks all.
 
health123 said:
Will being a crna be mentally challenging and is it as respected as anesthesiology?
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Two questions there. The challenge of a CRNA's job varies greatly with the environment, case load, patient acuity, level of physician direction/supervision/backup, and the individual's skill and experience.

I think you know the answer to the second question. Though if you're looking for glory and praise, look for a third option. CRNAs are more often envied and/or hated by other nurses, than admired by them. Anesthesiologists are supporting actors. Most other doctors understand our value and want us around when things go sideways, but they won't often actually voice that aloud. We're like offensive linemen, frequently invisible as we move the team, until we screw up and the QB gets sacked.


health123 said:
I know if i go that route, I'll go all the way to dnap.
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The DNAP is a false summit. It's a scam. Utterly worthless if the aim is self-improvement. Marginally useful as a political or employment tool. No one's fooled by it, even the CRNAs doing it to check that box.

I am alternately amused that the AANA is choosing to screw its own membership by pushing the DNAP thing, and irritated at their gall to assert that some pointy-clicky online education brings them closer to physician status.


health123 said:
Wanted to add, money is luckily not an issue for me.

[...]

Another concern I have is all this talk of CRNA market being saturated. Will that be an issue, say in the next 5-10 years? thanks all.
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The CRNA market is saturated and likely to become more so. There's no sign that they'll slow their overproduction. The CRNA puppy mills are making money hand over fist on SRNAs. Predicting the future is hard, but here again the AANA isn't doing them any favors.

But ... if you're financially secure already ... if you end up working for less than today's CRNA wages, if it's a job you want to do, so what?

You're 33 year old nurse. You could be a CRNA in what, 3-4 years depending on when you start? You said you tanked your science classes as an undergrad, so after a couple years of a post-bac to get yourself into a medical school, you could then start the 8 year process of med school and residency, finishing up when your kid is 10 or 11. If you think you'd be happy as a CRNA, do that.

Don't let pride stop you from doing what's right for you.

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dr doze said:
Not sure how this will play out. I agree that CRNA training programs/Universities love the tuition paying students and will never cut back their slots. But an RN who is working and contemplating foregoing a paycheck for 2+ years and writing a check for $50,000 or so will simply pass unless there is a reward for that investment. The more that CRNA salaries drop, the fewer geographic options, etc. the more likely that RNs will pass on CRNA training programs the same way that med students stayed away from Anesthesiology during the job crunch of the 90s. Lots of unfilled residency slots then. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen to todays medical students due to the ratio of medical students to residency slots in all specialties.
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What exactly happened in the 90s that resulted in a job crunch for anesthesiology? And why did demand increase?
 
Baller MD said:
What exactly happened in the 90s that resulted in a job crunch for anesthesiology? And why did demand increase?
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The rumor is that there was a lot of doom and gloom because of some relative of Bill Clinton that was a CRNA - supposedly the sky was falling and the specialty was doomed. The applicant pool tanked and was rife with FMG's. The prediction was never borne to fruition though.
 
Arch Guillotti said:
The rumor is that there was a lot of doom and gloom because of some relative of Bill Clinton that was a CRNA - supposedly the sky was falling and the specialty was doomed. The applicant pool tanked and was rife with FMG's. The prediction was never borne to fruition though.
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supply hit demand....new grads couldn't find jobs...word got back to the med students.... who stayed away from anesthesia residencies.

Demand increased because the work done by residents wasn't getting done because the residents weren't there...the training programs hired the recent grads. No excess of supply and no pipeline of residents in training...bull market for anesthesiologists...now ending.
 
I was under the impression DNAP was a practice doctorate with more clinical rotations in more difficult cases ( a few programs I looked at had more clinical hours). Anyway, if I take the MD route, I was going to go back to "UCLA EXTENSION" and take the sciences classes I got b's and some c's for a's. That would definitely take about a year, which would mean applying in 2016 and starting 2017. Seems like a tedious road, but can't imagine doing anything else. CRNA is also tempting, but I want to work collaboratively with physicians and have opportunities to do hard cases; i don't know how feasible that is.
 
dr doze said:
supply hit demand....new grads couldn't find jobs...word got back to the med students.... who stayed away from anesthesia residencies.

Demand increased because the work done by residents wasn't getting done because the residents weren't there...the training programs hired the recent grads. No excess of supply and no pipeline of residents in training...bull market for anesthesiologists...now ending.
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If that's the case then I'm not sure if the anesthesiology market will EVER get better. There will always be med students to fill those seats ie IMGs.
 
Baller MD said:
If that's the case then I'm not sure if the anesthesiology market will EVER get better. There will always be med students to fill those seats ie IMGs.
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Bingo!

Let's not forget also that the programs increased the number of residents by 40%, compared to the 90's. So even if they underfill, they will do way better than in the 90's.
 
health123 said:
I was under the impression DNAP was a practice doctorate with more clinical rotations in more difficult cases ( a few programs I looked at had more clinical hours). Anyway, if I take the MD route, I was going to go back to "UCLA EXTENSION" and take the sciences classes I got b's and some c's for a's. That would definitely take about a year, which would mean applying in 2016 and starting 2017. Seems like a tedious road, but can't imagine doing anything else. CRNA is also tempting, but I want to work collaboratively with physicians and have opportunities to do hard cases; i don't know how feasible that is.
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It seems like you've already made up your mind. For reference, I had an individual in my medical school class, started at age 46 after giving up a tenured position as a university mathematics professor. So yes, it can be done. I would recommend talking with CRNAs at your current institution and see if that helps guide (or reaffirm) your decision.
 
Biochemist21 said:
It seems like you've already made up your mind. For reference, I had an individual in my medical school class, started at age 46 after giving up a tenured position as a university mathematics professor. So yes, it can be done.
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You do realize what the IQ of that person must have been, right?
 
FFP said:
You do realize what the IQ of that person must have been, right?
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They are probably pretty far above average to be a tenured professor in math.

I guess they could've just bought a sports car and called it a day, but I suppose medical school's not a worse choice.
 
health123 said:
Hello everyone, I am trying to find the right thread to post this in, and I think this might be it as some of you are already physicians and have significant others who are nurses. A little bit of a background: top of my class in high school, went straight to UCLA-beginning of second year of undergrad, sister passes away from car accident, dad dies the next year of mi. Grades drop like crazy, especially the premed science grades. Anyway, I gather myself the last two years of UCLA, take LVN night classes during that time thinking my md days are over, become an LVN, get my BS in neuroscience, then go on to a year of RN. Become an RN, work, open my own business (home health), go back to school become an Adult NP, work some more, go back to school finish Critical Care NP certification. Here I am, contemplating medical school. I love what I do, I have helped save many lives, but I hunger for the sciences which I feel I didn't get as much in nursing or np school. I find myself going back to the books after an interesting case, reading the microbiology of what happened. But, I want that to be in the back of my mind always, like all MD students have when practicing (I'm assuming). I am considering CRNA (fascinated by anesthesiology since the first rotations in rn school). But, I might still feel inadequate and all my schooling might feel like a waste and leave me depressed wanting for more. I am 33 now, married to a loving, caring Dentist, and we have a 1 year old boy. Am i crazy for wanting medicine at this stage in my life? Will being a crna be mentally challenging and is it as respected as anesthesiology? I know if i go that route, I'll go all the way to dnap. But is that worth it? or should i go back and improve my science grade and give med school a shot. I am at a cross roads in my life, I really need sound guidance from the the tried and true. Thank you.
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So, if I understand correctly, at this point you are already a critical care APRN.

Medical school at 33, with the current outlook? What for? Unless you want to become a surgeon... I would not submit myself to this amount of torture and waste of money, especially with a small kid. Better become the best critical care APRN than just be an average doctor (because there is no way in hell you'll have time for more than that). Find a good ICU doc who could mentor you through some advanced reading, to get a deeper understanding why you do things, and keep reading 3+ hours/day. In a year you'll be much further than you'd have ever imagined. Or learn some more business and go back to investing in home health care, or hospice. Nothing more satisfying than being your own boss, so rare nowadays as a physician.

Let's also look at the financial aspect:
- med school cost ~$250K
- loss of income over 4 years of med school (assuming a very conservative $100K/year as an APRN now): ~$400K
- loss of income over at least 6 years of residency and fellowship: ~$200K

You will be 44 year-old when you will start recuperating that ~$800K, divided over 20 years. Add to it the cost of interest plus the amount you lose by not investing the same money (even at 7% average stock market return, you would double your money in 10 years, so you would lose another ~$500K). So now you have to make an extra ~$1.3+M over 20 years just to break even. That sounds OK as long as you would make at least $100-200K extra/year as a physician. That's true for now, might be less true in 10 years for most specialties. And what kind of residency can you get at 39? Or fellowship later? Seriously! I am an IMG so I was a late bloomer in this country, but I can tell you that my much younger co-residents had an easier life and got much better fellowships with much less knowledge and academic performance. Attendings are not big fans of supervising trainees who are the same age or older than them, especially if not young and good-looking. 😉

You also do realize that physicians make more than APRNs because they don't work just 40 hours/week, right? So there is also a lifestyle cost in extra 20-40 hours/week you would work as a physician, that would start even as a medical student.

A medical degree wouldn't bring more happiness. At your level, extra money wouldn't bring that much extra happiness either. The grass is always greener somewhere else, but I would count my blessings and enjoy my kid, my spouse and my life at max.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Thank you FFP for breaking down some numbers. It makes a lot of sense looking at it from your angle. I guess when I do some soul searching, I realize what's really bothering is the fact that I know so much about diagnosing, treating, etc....I do my own research into things, I read a whole bunch of medical journals (not nursing). I just know I can do this and yet also know probably lost my opportunity. My husband was a biochem major at ucla back in the 90s with a 3.9 since and major gpa. He tried a few medical schools, got interviews but because he had to move away from ailing parents, he opted for local dental school. He says I'm feeling the "30's blues" regarding my profession which he went through and got over. I hope I can get over this too.
 
There were classmates of mine who were older and had multiple young children and made it through medical school. It sounds like you are the kind of person who could make it happen. At the same time, FFP did a nice job of pointing out the stark reality of the path you would be embarking on. If you are willing to pay the price and make those sacrifices, I suspect that you will get a lot out of the experience of becoming a physician. But don't do it for prestige, money, or respect because anesthesiology is not that specialty. Most people don't know what you do or why it matters, other people want to do your job claiming they can do it better for less money, and the prestige and respect always goes to the surgeons. If you can derive internal satisfaction and enjoy doing your job well for the sake of patients who will not remember your name, then becoming an anesthesiologist might be worth considering.

Personally, if I was in your situation I doubt I would embark on that journey with a 1 year old son. My son is 6 months and trust me, you miss out on a lot. Residency and clinical years of medical school are time consuming and your schedule is not under your control.
 
health123 said:
I was under the impression DNAP was a practice doctorate with more clinical rotations in more difficult cases ( a few programs I looked at had more clinical hours).
Click to expand...

That's what they want you and every other lay person to think. You obviously haven't looked at it much or you easily see its non clinical fluff.
 
Have not posted in a while due to me being in a remote location. Definetly have learned a ton over the year. Been a solo practioner for the last 6-7 months. I have had to learn a ton about the construction of the operating room from building and purchasing anesthesia equipment to maintinence logs to sterile processing to include training of junior techs on our equipment. As well as providing solo care for an island( I do have a CRNA). My wife is back in the states and works locums. She has practiced in many different supervisory roles IE medical direction and medical supervision. I think we are both set in that medical direction is the way to go. Medical supervision is truly dreadful covering 8-9 rooms no real control as an anesthesiologist basically a firefighter who comes in when stuff hits the fan with little preventive maintinence. Watch out for this medical supervision mode isl truly scary. I will say my wife keeps me on my toes she does some pretty cool cases awake carotids, crani's, and open AAA. I also have realized the knowledge difference between us and them which is stark. Also, the social structure of CRNA's is quite different then physicians. It has not been easy but worth it in the end. Anyone from the Jacksonville area PM trying to get some insite into the groups in that area.
 
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health123 said:
Thank you FFP for breaking down some numbers. It makes a lot of sense looking at it from your angle. I guess when I do some soul searching, I realize what's really bothering is the fact that I know so much about diagnosing, treating, etc....I do my own research into things, I read a whole bunch of medical journals (not nursing). I just know I can do this and yet also know probably lost my opportunity. My husband was a biochem major at ucla back in the 90s with a 3.9 since and major gpa. He tried a few medical schools, got interviews but because he had to move away from ailing parents, he opted for local dental school. He says I'm feeling the "30's blues" regarding my profession which he went through and got over. I hope I can get over this too.
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Just so you're aware, medical school is going to be a ridiculous time commitment that is far more draining than most CRNA programs. You're going to spend 8 years of your life with a stratospheric level of stress. Most people don't really understand how bad it is until they're in, as they figure it's all just bitching and hype, but let me assure you, the stress will eat you alive. During residency you'll be pushing 70-80 hours most weeks, often doing overnights and the like for 4 years. Does that sound like a life you want to live? Does that sound like a place you want your 30s to go all for the sake of a bit of extra knowledge? If the answer is yes, go to medical school. If it is no, well... Sure as hell don't.
 
narcusprince said:
I think we are both set in that medical supervision is the way to go. Medical direction is truly dreadful covering 8-9 rooms no real control as an anesthesiologist basically a firefighter who comes in when stuff hits the fan with little preventive maintinence. Watch out for this medical direction model truly scary.
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Off-topic, just to clear up the terms, because you have them mixed up. More than 4 rooms or not meeting all the TEFRA requirements is supervision, not direction. Also, medical supervision is not necessarily by an anesthesiologist.

This is a pretty good explanation:
For billing purposes, CRNA and AA services are considered either medically directed or medically supervised. AAs must work under the medical direction of an anesthesiologist who is physically present during the provision of services. CRNAs may be either medically directed by an anesthesiologist or medically supervised by the attending physician.

Providers should indicate whether a procedure was medically directed or medically supervised by using an appropriate modifier following the procedure code.

Medically Directed Anesthesia Services
Medically directed anesthesia services are those services performed by a CRNA or an AA and directed by an anesthesiologist. When a CRNA or AA is medically directed, the anesthesiologist must do all of the following:

  1. Perform pre-anesthesia examination and evaluation.
  2. Prescribe the anesthesia plan.
  3. Personally participate in the most demanding procedures of the anesthesia plan, including induction and emergence, if applicable.
  4. Monitor at frequent intervals the course of anesthesia administered.
  5. Remain physically present and available for immediate diagnosis and treatment of emergencies.
  6. Indicate post-anesthesia care.
Medically Supervised Anesthesia Services
Medically supervised anesthesia services are those services performed by a CRNA and supervised by the attending physician. When a CRNA is medically supervised, the attending physician:

  1. Reviews and verifies the pre-anesthesia evaluation performed by the CRNA.
  2. Reviews the anesthesia plan, including medication.
  3. Reviews and comments during pre-anesthesia care.
  4. Reviews and comments during post-anesthesia care.
Medically Directed vs. Medically Supervised Anesthesia Services
For medically directed anesthesia services, an anesthesiologist is present during critical points in the procedure and is immediately available for diagnosis and treatment of emergencies. However, when a CRNA is medically supervised by the attending physician, an anesthesiologist does not have to be present during critical points in the procedure or immediately available for diagnosis and treatment of an emergency.

AAs must perform services under the medical direction of an anesthesiologist. Therefore, they cannot perform medically supervised anesthesia services.
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Source: https://www.forwardhealth.wi.gov/WIPortal/Online Handbooks/Print/tabid/154/Default.aspx?ia=1&p=1&sa=82&s=2&c=61&nt=Supervision Requirements
 
Medical direction versus supervision is the way to go. I don't see how any anesthesiologist could safely cover 8-9 rooms. You could not pay me enough money to do it. Crnas are good at management of inter operative cases but not so great at preventive maintainince, preop eval, postop management. Huge difference in training.
 
health123 said:
Hello everyone, I am trying to find the right thread to post this in, and I think this might be it as some of you are already physicians and have significant others who are nurses. A little bit of a background: top of my class in high school, went straight to UCLA-beginning of second year of undergrad, sister passes away from car accident, dad dies the next year of mi. Grades drop like crazy, especially the premed science grades. Anyway, I gather myself the last two years of UCLA, take LVN night classes during that time thinking my md days are over, become an LVN, get my BS in neuroscience, then go on to a year of RN. Become an RN, work, open my own business (home health), go back to school become an Adult NP, work some more, go back to school finish Critical Care NP certification. Here I am, contemplating medical school. I love what I do, I have helped save many lives, but I hunger for the sciences which I feel I didn't get as much in nursing or np school. I find myself going back to the books after an interesting case, reading the microbiology of what happened. But, I want that to be in the back of my mind always, like all MD students have when practicing (I'm assuming). I am considering CRNA (fascinated by anesthesiology since the first rotations in rn school). But, I might still feel inadequate and all my schooling might feel like a waste and leave me depressed wanting for more. I am 33 now, married to a loving, caring Dentist, and we have a 1 year old boy. Am i crazy for wanting medicine at this stage in my life? Will being a crna be mentally challenging and is it as respected as anesthesiology? I know if i go that route, I'll go all the way to dnap. But is that worth it? or should i go back and improve my science grade and give med school a shot. I am at a cross roads in my life, I really need sound guidance from the the tried and true. Thank you.
Click to expand...
The CRNA schools require no lower than a "B" in any science courses - so you will have to repeat the courses anyhow. In my pre-med and med school courses, the CRNA students took the same science classes.
 
gasman1962 said:
The CRNA schools require no lower than a "B" in any science courses - so you will have to repeat the courses anyhow.
Click to expand...
ell oh ell

CRNA strip mall puppy mills will take anyone who can write a check for tuition. Good programs have standards. Not all programs are good ones, though.



gasman1962 said:
In my pre-med and med school courses, the CRNA students took the same science classes.
Click to expand...

A nursing student taking the same class as a med student is like a nurse working in the same ICU as a doctor.
 
Psai said:
There's no way this is true
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Actually it is true, maybe you should look at the evidence? I advise going to med school, she'd never get accepted to CRNA school, it's far more difficult to get in, and you can't just drop out and then go back whenever you feel like it like med school. And having an NP doesn't meet the pre-req's for CRNA school.
 
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