Match Results Shows The Heat Is Up

[Pascal8]

expcm - you are confusing two issues , but I forgive you since you are from Califiornia ( probably the most bankrupt state ) ..

The issue with IT jobs , banking jobs has to do with paying H1 visa holders LESS , so thats why many of the IT jobs are outsourced .

In terms of residency , H1 visa foreign docs get paid the same rate as us citizens , so its not a financial issue , but rather the system that was established to alleviate a shortage is now being abused. NO qualified AMG or USIMG ( ecfmg Certified ) should go unmatched in favor of a H1 visa applicant .

Also , let us not forget that residency is a TRAINING position .

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[psychforme]

Its a simple solution .Restrict H1 visas for medical residency which is a training position .

Train US CITIZENS ( AMGS and ECFMG certified US citizens from offshore shcools) first and foremost . ANy shortage of spots that remains can be offered to H1 visa requiring foreign doctors .

Simple as that .

Plan B :

Offer more residency spots

No need for a solution when there is no problem. 99% of the AMG get matched. And the remainder probably shouldn't match for the safety of the american population.

 

[exPCM]

expcm - you are confusing two issues , but I forgive you since you are from Califiornia ( probably the most bankrupt state ) ..

The issue with IT jobs , banking jobs has to do with paying H1 visa holders LESS , so thats why many of the IT jobs are outsourced .

In terms of residency , H1 visa foreign docs get paid the same rate as us citizens , so its not a financial issue , but rather the system that was established to alleviate a shortage is now being abused. NO qualified AMG or USIMG ( ecfmg Certified ) should go unmatched in favor of a H1 visa applicant .

Also , let us not forget that residency is a TRAINING position .

Actually Pascal I just live in California but I don't get to set the California state budget.
You know I am not confused about H1B either,
If you outsource the job (send it to another country) then you do not need an H1B visa - so your statement about outsourcing is peculiar to me.
As far as pay for H1B visa holders:
Employers must attest that wages offered are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or alternatively, pay the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment, whichever is greater. By signing the LCA (Labor Condition Application), the employer attests that: prevailing wage rate for area of employment will be paid; working conditions of position will not adversely affect conditions of similarly employed American workers; place of employment not experiencing labor dispute involving a strike or lockout.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B_visa

 

[Pascal8]

No need for a solution when there is no problem.

Seriously , is this what you of all people tell your self , Mr psychfrome ?
You have a problem ...below is your quote . Please get help .


quote=psychforme:

I suffer from psychopathology. No need to go into details since I am afraid you will label it as trolling. But the bottom line is that I see nothing in people worth liking. However, I feel sympathy for sick people who are more miserable than me. Basically I am a disgusting human being and there is not much to do about that since it's my psychopathology.

Any ideas on how to cope with your psychopathology and rescue your medical career? Objectively, I really feel I need psychiatric healtcare to cope but I am very afraid that would hurt my career.

And my career is the only thing I have. quote=psychforme:

 

[JSI124]

NO qualified AMG or USIMG ( ecfmg Certified ) should go unmatched in favor of a H1 visa applicant

Well, I'm sure most programs, and patients would somewhat disagree with this, as being qualified means graduating and passing the USMLEs. The end-product can be a really mediocre (let's not use some other words) young physician.
In the end, no IMGs could take a position away from, in selection committee's eyes, qualified AMG or USIMG.

 

[psychforme]

Seriously , is this what you of all people tell your self , Mr psychfrome ?
You have a problem ...below is your quote . Please get help .

No mr Pascal8 . Are you an IMG with a green card with a 188 step 1 by any chance ?..??? What is your problem really Pascal8 except using the space key on the wrong side of commas and punctuations ?

 

[Pascal8]

Actually Pascal I just live in California but I don't get to set the California state budget.
You know I am not confused about H1B either,
If you outsource the job (send it to another country) then you do not need an H1B visa - so your statement about outsourcing is peculiar to me.
As far as pay for H1B visa holders:
Employers must attest that wages offered are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or alternatively, pay the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment, whichever is greater. By signing the LCA (Labor Condition Application), the employer attests that: prevailing wage rate for area of employment will be paid; working conditions of position will not adversely affect conditions of similarly employed American workers; place of employment not experiencing labor dispute involving a strike or lockout.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B_visa

you are right - outrsourcing doesn't require H1 visa ..i.e outsourcing in terms of geographical displacement ..e.g moving jobs to asia .

Importing labor reuires a h1 visa . You really believe that H1 visa workers in the us are paid the same rate ?

Do a search and you will see the economic reasons behind this move .

 

[Pascal8]

No mr Pascal8 . Are you an IMG with a green card with a 188 step 1 by any chance ?..??? What is your problem really Pascal8 except using the space key on the wrong side of commas and punctuations ?

No actually I am an American Medical Student who actually respects and honors the right of US citizens to be considered first and foremost for employment .


Please get help for your psych issue. Thanks.

 

[exPCM]

you are right - outrsourcing doesn't require H1 visa ..i.e outsourcing in terms of geographical displacement ..e.g moving jobs to asia .

Importing labor reuires a h1 visa . You really believe that H1 visa workers in the us are paid the same rate ?

Do a search and you will see the economic reasons behind this move .

They are supposed to be paid the same rate. Not paying the same rate would be a violation of the law and we know that in the USA today no one ever breaks the law.

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Well, I'm sure most programs, and patients would somewhat disagree with this, as being qualified means graduating and passing the USMLEs. The end-product can be a really mediocre (let's not use some other words) young physician.
In the end, no IMGs could take a position away from, in selection committee's eyes, qualified AMG or USIMG.

Agreed. I truly can see all sides of the arguement.

No correct solution to the problem, no matter what, someone will get left out.......

 

[psychforme]

No actually I am an American Medical Student who actually respects and honors the right of US citizens to be considered first and foremost for employment .

They already are. Why should a USIMG step 1 187 with 3 failures be considered before an indian rock star with 289 on step 1? It makes no sense at all.

Please get help for your psych issue. Thanks.

Medical advice is forbidden on this board.

 

[badasshairday]

Seems like the solution to this is simple. AMG's first, then everybody else gets to try for the left overs.

As for the US IMGs... we are opening up a ton of medical school seats in the US, so people who would have gone to the Carribean now have a better chance of getting into a US school. So any of those who still cannot get into a US school, tough luck.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Users are reminded to keep the conversation civil without ad hominem attacks - either directed to specific users or groups of people. Failure to do so will result in closure of the thread and administrative warnings to all involved.

 

[Ice dude]

So? Maybe they're just that dam good at what they do. Maybe they're personality exhibits someone who has profound knowledge and exceptional communication skills. They obviously had something that the AMGs didn't. This is a dog-eat-dog world; deal with it.

I totally agree with Bassix.

 

[Hernandez]

I totally agree with Bassix.

Unfortunately it isn't a dog-eat-dog world. FMGs are here by the good graces of our government on visas which explicitly state that they should not be issues if there is a qualified American to take that job. So this will do nothing for IMGs, but rightfully so we should not be taking FMGs and leaving American's hanging. I've personally seen many FMGs who have no intention of staying in the States doing residencies and fellowships. Personally that irks me that my tax dollars are funding a spot that very well could have gone to an American who intended to stay in the States.

 

[medsRus]

I believe that FMG's should have priority over US-IMG's and please spare me the tax payer arguement.

If US-IMGs are US citizens and resident funding is essentially government funding, so you want rather have tax money go to foreigners... I see...

Also, if US-IMGs have the scores, they why not permit them be on par with AMGs?

 

[Ezekiel2517]

US-IMG's are the scraps or remainders of the US medical system. They could not get into an American med school or didn't even try because they realiized the futility whether it be due to poor grades, poor standardized tests, or a failure to recognize their interest until too late in the game. Why should we reward these individuals over others when they couldn't even get into an American med school?

They should be rewarded if they are able to make a comeback, kick ass, and outperform the competition. It's absolutely hilarious hearing US-MD's complain about FMG/IMG's. Do you even realize how large of an advantage US-MD's already have? If a US-MD doesn't get a spot b/c of a FMG (which is rare), it's b/c the FMG's credentials were vastly superior. Also, by your logic, we should only let those who attended the best colleges apply for med school b/c obviously the rest are just the "scraps".

 

[Ezekiel2517]

edited

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Not really since the majority of colleges are accreditied. Going to a state university or lower tier college is a bit different than leaving the country for medical school.

Why should we reward an underachiever in the first place. Maybe that person should have dedicated themselves, upped their CV and test scores and gone to an American school rather than some backwater island where the deans are counting their tuition and laughing all the way to the bank.

Well clearly he/she is not an underachiever if they end up putting a beat down on the competition and taking that spot away from a US grad. I'm not gonna sink to your level and ridicule their education. All I'm saying is that it takes vastly superior credentials for them to be even competitive with US-MD's. If they get it, they deserve it.

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

It's not exactly tax money that is going to subsidize residencies but rather Medicare funds that earmarked for GME. A slightly different set up than what you are saying.

As regards to US-IMG's having equal scores competing equally with AMG's I'm strongly against it. Why should someone who couldn't make it in through the main pathway of medicine be allowed the same crack at residencies as those that did. Further, I have problem of comparing US-IMG and AMG board scores to some degree because it's a lot easier to get a 230 + when you study for 6-12 months as many US-IMG's do compared to the 3-6 weeks that most US students get following their M2 year. As for looking at grades, I'm not sure if Carib schools are pass fail or rank but suffice to say it would be much easier to be at the top of your carib class than an american med school.

Not all Caribs have months to study for Step 1. Actually it's pretty rare. For example, I only had 2 weeks.

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Seems like the only solution is to increase the residency slots.

And even if they do increase the slots, I'm sure the battle over who deserves it will continue.

*sigh* Can't we all just get along?!

 

[psychforme]

Not all Caribs have months to study for Step 1. Actually it's pretty rare. For example, I only had 2 weeks.

You had 2 full years to study for step 1 since your preclinical years are 100% tailored for step 1.

 

[badasshairday]

Note I did not say all but many in my original post. Also, with my limited experience (n= 15-20), many caribbean students have that much time to prepare. Often they take a semester off. Also, some caribbean students have a semester of board review built into their curriculum where all they do is focus on USMLE Step I for 3-6 months (ex. Windsor).

I agree. I heard of something called a "fifth semester," and I think all they do that semester is study for boards.

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

You had 2 full years to study for step 1 since your preclinical years are 100% tailored for step 1.

Please stop being so inflammatory towards IMGs/FMGs here, and let's just have a decent discussion.

 

[psychforme]

Please stop being so inflammatory towards IMGs/FMGs here, and let's just have a decent discussion.

Not meant as an inflammatory statement. Just correcting your half-truth. A good step 1 score is a good step 1 score in my book. Personally I think a 240 USIMG is better than a 200 AMG and deserves the spot. But I DO NOT think a 200 USIMG deserves a spot in front of a 250+ indian FMG because of his citizenship.

 

[rkaz]

By increasing the rolls of US students, you decrease the pool of individuals going offshore; those that do will have an awful time trying to get back.

If this trend continues and the AAMC dream becomes a reality, look for offshore schools catering to USFMGs to go out of business rapidly.

The business people/ school CEO's will find other ways to make money if less US students go to Caribbean schools. There is currently one single for-profit DO school in the US, as the CEO's of AUC (Caribbean) school must have forseen this trend, and were able to make a for-profit DO school in Colorado (Rocky Vista University). I'm sure they would have loved to make a for-profit MD school within the US, but the LCME thankfully doesn't allow it. Unfortunately the AOA leadership didn't stop a for-profit school from opening, and it seems more for-profit schools are on the way. So these CEOs of Caribbean schools at this point unfortunately still have loopholes to make their money. I can only hope enough external and internal pressure can make the AOA stop allowing any more for-profit DO schools from opening up, as currently they seem unwilling to do anything.

 

[racerx]

It's not exactly tax money that is going to subsidize residencies but rather Medicare funds that earmarked for GME.

And the FICA that gets taken from your paycheck isn't a form of taxation how? Medicare funds are obtained via confiscatory means that run parallel to the income tax. It is still a tax, just separate from the income tax.

So yes, it is EXACTLY tax money, from U.S. taxpayers, that is funding spots taken by FMG's who will likely go back to their home countries after training. You might as well burn some of the money taken from the workers as FICA. They will certainly never see the benefits of it.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Unfortunately it isn't a dog-eat-dog world. FMGs are here by the good graces of our government on visas which explicitly state that they should not be issues if there is a qualified American to take that job. So this will do nothing for IMGs, but rightfully so we should not be taking FMGs and leaving American's hanging. I've personally seen many FMGs who have no intention of staying in the States doing residencies and fellowships. Personally that irks me that my tax dollars are funding a spot that very well could have gone to an American who intended to stay in the States.

you are right on!

 

[GeraldMonroe]

What proportion of FMGs leave to return to their home countries?

I was under the impression that most of them stay for the big bucks relative to their home country, and pay income taxes and FICA on the money.

 

[psychforme]

What proportion of FMGs leave to return to their home countries?

I was under the impression that most of them stay for the big bucks relative to their home country, and pay income taxes and FICA on the money.

Depends on the discussion. When discussing tax payers money and residency match apparently all FMGs return home. When discussing oversupply of physicians in certain areas of the country - not a single FMG return home. When discussing FMGs practicing in the underserved areas where AMGs would never set their foot.... wait, that is not discussed at all.

 

[Long Dong]

What proportion of FMGs leave to return to their home countries?

I was under the impression that most of them stay for the big bucks relative to their home country, and pay income taxes and FICA on the money.

Me too, my father is an FMG and no way is going back to vietnam for chump change pay. He likes running water, AC and electricity to much. But he does want his original house back that the communist took from him when the war ended.

 

[BobA]

Also, if US-IMGs have the scores, they why not permit them be on par with AMGs?

Because it's about more than scores.

 

[BobA]

Me too, my father is an FMG and no way is going back to vietnam for chump change pay. He likes running water, AC and electricity to much. But he does want his original house back that the communist took from him when the war ended.

You could probably buy that house back when you're a dermatologist

 

[psychforme]

Because it's about more than scores.

So, what was your score?

 

[Long Dong]

You could probably buy that house back when you're a dermatologist

Mos def that estate had been in my family for generations. My goal is to get it back in my families hands on not in the hands some communist bureaucrat who recieved it as gift from the spoils of war.

 

[Coastie]

Mos def that estate had been in my family for generations. My goal is to get it back in my families hands on not in the hands some communist bureaucrat who recieved it as gift from the spoils of war.

If they are commies, take it back by force. I'm pretty sure that's legal..

 

[Long Dong]

If they are commies, take it back by force. I'm pretty sure that's legal..

Yeah I'm gonna get some money together and higher rambo to do it.

 

[Coastie]

Yeah I'm gonna get some money together and higher rambo to do it.

Dude, count me in.

Although, not buddying up to good ole commies/fascists like Chairman Maobama may end you up in a re-education camp. After all, Chavez/Castro/North Korea/Iran deserve handshakes and sit-downs. Why don't you go talk to the commies who stole your lands? Isn't that the true way to peace? Didn't Chairman Maobama say all you need is ?

 

[racerx]

Your obviously a misinformed med student if you think most FMG's get trained here and go back to their home countries. Maybe you should actually make it to the MD or DO and get some experience before you start talking a lot. Most FMG's stay in this country after training F.Y.I.

Ah yes, and I'm sure you have many more years of life experience than I.

Simply being a med student doesn't preclude me from having other information, or having other life experience that allows me to speak with some knowledge. To paraphrase you: 'perhaps YOU should make it a point to know more about ME before assuming I don't know of what I speak.' Having the staus of med student on here speaks nothing to my life, or experiences, before med school.

Even if MOST FMG's stay here, there is a considerable portion that don't. That money is thrown away, relative to the future value to the taxpayers of the U.S. Tell me again why, without the help-the-world-kumbayah platitudes, we should fund those that may go back? Even if it is only 20%, it is not a good investment.

 

[psychforme]

Ah yes, and I'm sure you have many more years of life experience than I.

Simply being a med student doesn't preclude me from having other information, or having other life experience that allows me to speak with some knowledge. To paraphrase you: 'perhaps YOU should make it a point to know more about ME before assuming I don't know of what I speak.' Having the staus of med student on here speaks nothing to my life, or experiences, before med school.

Even if MOST FMG's stay here, there is a considerable portion that don't. That money is thrown away, relative to the future value to the taxpayers of the U.S. Tell me again why, without the help-the-world-kumbayah platitudes, we should fund those that may go back? Even if it is only 20%, it is not a good investment.

It's in the J1 VISA contract that they have to go back for at least 2 years after residency. Why the hell does the tax payers force them to go home, and now whine WHEN THEY DO?

 

[racerx]

It's in the J1 VISA contract that they have to go back for at least 2 years after residency. Why the hell does the tax payers force them to go home, and now whine WHEN THEY DO?

IMO, if they're going to come here and then go home, they should have to sign a contract that they stay year-for-year past their residency if they want to go home. If they don't stay, they must compensate the U.S. government the funds necessary to train them. I have no problem with training FMG's if they return the kindness of the taxpayer with service. The H-1b visa does just that, but the J1 doesn't. I also don't have a problem with the FMG's wanting to stay here after training. We are a country of immigrants.

 

[JPR22]

Even if MOST FMG's stay here, there is a considerable portion that don't. That money is thrown away, relative to the future value to the taxpayers of the U.S. Tell me again why, without the help-the-world-kumbayah platitudes, we should fund those that may go back? Even if it is only 20%, it is not a good investment.

I can see how it works for less popular residencies. You get experienced doctors from other countries, have them work 79.5 hrs/week and pay them $42000. Since they're already trained, there's no real educational expenses required. In addition you can have them pay "admin fees" for the visas, in addition to giving local lawyers desperately needed work. Thats my argument for.
There's much to be said for the other side of the argument though.

 

[Bassix]

Unfortunately it isn't a dog-eat-dog world. FMGs are here by the good graces of our government on visas which explicitly state that they should not be issues if there is a qualified American to take that job. So this will do nothing for IMGs, but rightfully so we should not be taking FMGs and leaving American's hanging. I've personally seen many FMGs who have no intention of staying in the States doing residencies and fellowships. Personally that irks me that my tax dollars are funding a spot that very well could have gone to an American who intended to stay in the States.

It is a very dog-eat-dog world. You will compete in med school, you will compete in residency, you will compete for fellowships, and you will compete when you get out into the private practice world. Sounds kind of ironic that a med student has to tell you that the competition will never end. Med students should never be so naive to assume that going to any medical school provides security. Getting in is no free ride. If someone else far excels the expectations of what the program sees, then there is no reason to take someone that is just 'qualified.'

 

[Bassix]

Thought I put my 2 cents into the ring...

As an AMG, I am obviously biased towards those with a similar training experience. What is apparent is that the number of applicants is rising and as of yet there is no increase in the number of residency spots coming.

A solution as I see it is to do a 2 tiered match with a scramble between the 2 matches. The 1st match would be for all AMG's and no pre-match or advanced contracts would be allowed. This would allow for all spots to be available for AMG's. Once the 1st match is complete, allow any of unmatched AMG's scramble. Following this, the 2nd match with FMG and US-IMG would take place with the remaining spots. This allows for all AMG's to be granted spots and the remainder to be given out.

Right, because we all know that 100% of students in US allopathic schools are 'qualified.' Come off it. The admissions process is no where near perfect and I'm sure there are hundreds of students who go through breakdowns, etc... because med school wasn't they expected, yet they barely pass. No med school is immune to this. It happens at the best schools and it happens at the worst schools.

I've stated this before and I'll state it again even though I'm sure to catch some flak for it. I believe that FMG's should have priority over US-IMG's and please spare me the tax payer arguement. FMG's that I have worked are for the most part excellent physicians who were well trained in their home countries and many of them were attendings prior to coming to train here. They add something to the medical education system in this country. US-IMG's are the scraps or remainders of the US medical system. They could not get into an American med school or didn't even try because they realiized the futility whether it be due to poor grades, poor standardized tests, or a failure to recognize their interest until too late in the game. Why should we reward these individuals over others when they couldn't even get into an American med school?

Ahh yes, prejudging your fellow peers. Nothing wreaks more of insecurity than claiming that US-IMG's who are competitive should not be rewarded. Every individual experience is unique and you have no way of knowing who goes through what and what their circumstances were. The US system is far from perfect as I already mentioned above. The US system pampers its students because failures tarnish the reputation of the school. Contrast that to the resources that offshore schools have. There are far more obstacles that have to be overcome when going offshore and if someone comes out on top and ends up being competitive, you better believe that they have exhibited hard work and dedication.

 

[Bassix]

Even if MOST FMG's stay here, there is a considerable portion that don't. That money is thrown away, relative to the future value to the taxpayers of the U.S. Tell me again why, without the help-the-world-kumbayah platitudes, we should fund those that may go back? Even if it is only 20%, it is not a good investment.

No, not at all. Both my parents were FMGs in the 70s. Every one of their colleagues are practicing here in the US or in Canada. FMGs have a lot to gain in the US and they'd rather stay here than go back. My allergen specialist at a top research uni did med school in South Korea. My ENT graduated med school from U of Toronto and practices here. My childhood ENT graduated from med school in Vietnam.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

The vitriol in this thread really gets to me.

About half the posters here are calling for some kind of system that is more elitist and discriminatory than it already is. As it currently stands, FMGs and IMGs are at an enormous disadvantage compared to AMGs. It isn't just boards : in order to be taken over an American an FMG/IMG has to pretty much kick ass in every respect during rotations or a preliminary intern year. Some IMGs are massively over-qualified for residency, having already completed an entire residency in their home country.

No. The solution to this problem is simple. More residency slots of every type are needed, and program directors should be empowered to choose the best applicant for the job, whether they be a foreign or American grad. (like they are today)

Some posters here are afraid that if total residency slots were increased to say, 35,000, then in the far future, once the baby boomers are dead, then there might be a surplus of physicians.

Wouldn't that be just great! Can you imagine how wonderful it would be if you actually had time to really do the best job you could for every patient? If you could actually work...gasp...a normal 40-50 hour workweek like other professionals? I know that will never happen (medicine will probably get more complicated over the next 20-30 years, and so the amount of work needed per patient will grow) but one can dream...

 

[Hernandez]

It is a very dog-eat-dog world.

By the very nature of how the law is written, it is not a dog-eat-dog world. The purpose of the H1 visa is to fill positions where there are no qualified American applicants. And it makes no sense to have unemployed AMGs who will end up utilizing unemployment benefits or defaulting on government backed loans simply because there was a FMG who did a little better than he on USMLE.

I'm not saying we should kick out all FMGs, but without a doubt i've met many who are down right lousy clinicians and couldn't speak a damn bit of english. With the numbers we're talking about in the expansion of American medical schools, we would not be talking about the complete removal of FMGs from the system, but AMGs should not go without a position when there are more residency positions than there are graduating AMGs.

Sounds kind of ironic that a med student has to tell you that the competition will never end.

yet none of these scenarios are limited by congress as far as numbers

Med students should never be so naive to assume that going to any medical school provides security. Getting in is no free ride. If someone else far excels the expectations of what the program sees, then there is no reason to take someone that is just 'qualified.'

Let's get down to the brass tacks of the talk. not all FMGs are these uber qualified super-docs here to utilize the system. I'm in a unique position to see FMGs at a top tier hospital which are down right amazing physicians, and I'm also in the position to interact with a community hospital based program which is nothing but FMGs which has more than a few dubious residents which can barely communicate in english much less communicate a patient care plan. Why should we allow these types of FMGs take spots of an AMG which could actually speak english?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

The vitriol in this thread really gets to me.

About half the posters here are calling for some kind of system that is more elitist and discriminatory than it already is. As it currently stands, FMGs and IMGs are at an enormous disadvantage compared to AMGs. It isn't just boards : in order to be taken over an American an FMG/IMG has to pretty much kick ass in every respect during rotations or a preliminary intern year. Some IMGs are massively over-qualified for residency, having already completed an entire residency in their home country.

No. The solution to this problem is simple. More residency slots of every type are needed, and program directors should be empowered to choose the best applicant for the job, whether they be a foreign or American grad. (like they are today)

Some posters here are afraid that if total residency slots were increased to say, 35,000, then in the far future, once the baby boomers are dead, then there might be a surplus of physicians.

Wouldn't that be just great! Can you imagine how wonderful it would be if you actually had time to really do the best job you could for every patient? If you could actually work...gasp...a normal 40-50 hour workweek like other professionals? I know that will never happen (medicine will probably get more complicated over the next 20-30 years, and so the amount of work needed per patient will grow) but one can dream...

By all means. But if you're going to cut security out of American medicine, then please also cut the absurd tuition. It's ridiculous to have IMGs who paid a few hundred or thousand dollars for their medical education at (let's be honest) frequently second-rate medical schools getting residency spots while AMGs who are similarly qualified get dumped into the hell of not matching and not being able to scramble into a spot, and owing $250,000 with no high paying job. That's what law schools have become (diploma mills, most of them), and I wouldn't want to see that scenario happen to American medicine.

 

[VMSmith]

I'm also in the position to interact with a community hospital based program which is nothing but FMGs which has more than a few dubious residents which can barely communicate in english much less communicate a patient care plan. Why should we allow these types of FMGs take spots of an AMG which could actually speak english?

They're not the type of FMG who would take the spot of an AMG though. Those community based programs likely get very few applicants from AMGs, and those AMGs who do apply and bother showing up for interviews likely either don't rank those programs or rank them too low to actually match there.

 

[KluverB]

... Why should we allow these types of FMGs take spots of an AMG which could actually speak english?

VMSmith beat me to it... but yeah, for the same reasons that few American are going to go out in the blazing hot sun of So Cali to pick strawberries, the same reason that few Americans would like to clean motel rooms, the same reason that few Americans would like to work as dishwashers, etc. etc. etc.

If you're an AMG with decent evals, USMLE scores, and a couple LORs, you're golden. Why are you worried? How is any of this going to impact you? Would you rather work with a qualified IMG who knows his **** and gets his work done? Or your drinkin' buddy who got into med school 'cause his daddy dropped a juicy endowment into the school coffers, and shouldn't be around a cactus, nevermind a live patient?

Just because you get into med school in the US should not give you the privilege of actually becoming a physician. Flame me all you want. You have to earn that honor with hard work. And just because a med school lets you graduate, so what? Being at, let's say the bottom 5-10% of your class, well what is that? I see a lot of whining about quality of education in the Carrib and elsewhere, but not much about the problems in the US. I'm sure there is variability between degree of difficulty of medical training in the US. What if you were at the bottom 5% at Harvard. How about the bottom 5% at... oh I dunno, pick some school you know that's at the bottom?

How many people ever fail out of med school in the US? Anyone have stats on that? You'll probably say that's because of more stringent admission requirements, bladi bladi blah... We all know that's BS! The med schools rarely if ever do it... There are levels of failure that they are prepared for, if I may paraphrase a line from a certain movie, but not so much that it will tarnish they're reputation. Otherwise, they won't attract any "talent". Who wants to go to a school that fails people. But guess what? A lot of schools in Europe do exactly that. They fail students who don't cut the mustard. But but... $250,000 in loans.... bladi bladi blah... Yeah, I hear you. But don't you think that if you're spending that much dough on your education, perhaps you shouldn't be squandering it?

So cry all you want. The more whining I see here the more I know that instead of wasting your time on an anonymous board, you should probably be studying and working on your people/communication skills, cause frankly, from most of what I read on here, Idiocracy is here!

Ciao!