Match Violation

[Michael Spiker]

I was looking through the NRMP site, and there were red flags next to UCLA and USC for match violations. Anyone know what happened there? What's the violation? What does that mean to applicants? Is there a penalty?

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[jbernar1]

I was looking through the NRMP site, and there were red flags next to UCLA and USC for match violations. Anyone know what happened there? What's the violation? What does that mean to applicants? Is there a penalty?

According to the NRMP, USC took a fourth year student outside of the match last year but the violation does not have any implications for this year. I don't know about UCLA.

 

[Butch]

According to the NRMP, USC took a fourth year student outside of the match last year but the violation does not have any implications for this year. I don't know about UCLA.

With all due respect, I disagree. A frank match violation should have consequences. Although USC is an outstanding program (and I would be happy to match there), there is no excuse for not following the rules.

 

[garm]

I'm interested to know how many people out there (this year and prior years) felt like they were subjected to active match violations during the interview/ranking season. Specifically, how often programs asked how you planned on ranking things (no matter the perceived intent of the question). While perhaps not the most pleasant topic, I'm just curious as to the incidence of this sort of thing.

 

[radonc]

*3 or 4 programs asked me what my rank order would be
*no less than 5 programs asked me what my marital status/sig other situation was (im a guy)
*one pd asked if i knew of other programs committing violations
*one other pd said that they gave one of the two spots away already outside the match (to a us grad, current ent resident)

 

[Butch]

*3 or 4 programs asked me what my rank order would be
*no less than 5 programs asked me what my marital status/sig other situation was (im a guy)
*one pd asked if i knew of other programs committing violations
*one other pd said that they gave one of the two spots away already outside the match (to a us grad, current ent resident)

The match rules are clear. A program can express interest in you, but it can not ask how you plan to rank them. Additionally, positions given "outside of the match" are against the rules. Which program gave a spot outside of the match?

I think programs that violate these rules should be reported to the match system. We applicants abide by the rules.

 

[garm]

I can think of one place that took someone outside the match this year.

I agree that when rules are violated, there ought to be consequences - or at least teaching. That said, I'm leery of volunteering to be the one who points the finger. The stories about what happens to whistleblowers in the work hour rules scare me.

My sense is that departments think they are acting in everyone's best interest by asking these types of questions. This sense only applies to the "where are you ranking us" question, not the marital status. Notably, I had PDs say that it would be against the rules to tell me where they were ranking me (unprompted by me) so perhaps people simply don't know.

 

[Michael Spiker]

Although it may be against the rule, I don't have such a problem with programs giving away their spots outside the match, if they do that at the beginning and make that clear to everyone. But if they go through the entire interviewing process and then pick someone they like and force them to choose right away before the match, that is unfair. It negates the whole concept of this match process and puts applicants at a disadvantage.

For the sake of people applying next year, I think that sort of history should be identified and made known. I have heard that UCLA and Vanderbilt have done that in the past. I don't know if they did that this year.

 

[r90t]

did not participate in the match in 2004. They interviewed 8 people for 2 spots and notified people within a week or two. I was there and don't know how you could do a violation without participating in it.

 

[stephew]

you can take people outside of the match so long as you don't do so for a spot advertised in the match.

 

[The_Id]

The match rules are clear. A program can express interest in you, but it can not ask how you plan to rank them. Additionally, positions given "outside of the match" are against the rules. Which program gave a spot outside of the match?

I think programs that violate these rules should be reported to the match system. We applicants abide by the rules.

From what I understand, it is completely legal for programs to give positions outside of the match to med school graduates (but not med school seniors). IF it is for an advertised spot, they have to decrease their quota, i.e. the number of spots registered for the match, prior to a certain date in Feb. After that, they are not allowed to take anyone outside of the match period.

 

[Butch]

From what I understand, it is completely legal for programs to give positions outside of the match to med school graduates (but not med school seniors). IF it is for an advertised spot, they have to decrease their quota, i.e. the number of spots registered for the match, prior to a certain date in Feb. After that, they are not allowed to take anyone outside of the match period.

I stand corrected.

I still maintain that there is no excuse whatsoever for the other match violations described previously in this thread. Programs that directly solicit an applicant with regards to rank position are violating the match and should be reported.

 

[doc05]

in small fields like radonc, where there are very few spots, where every chair knows every other chair, you can bet there is a lot of "funny business" going on.

 

[COhiker]

Usually, I imagine, the business is something less than funny. That said, I think most of us believe that there is a lot of borderline contact that goes on between applicants and programs and between the programs themselves.

 

[Butch]

Usually, I imagine, the business is something less than funny. That said, I think most of us believe that there is a lot of borderline contact that goes on between applicants and programs and between the programs themselves.

This will be my last posting, since I feel almost blue from repeating myself.

I am disappointed that applicants seem to just accept clear violations of the match rules. I am not sure that program-to-program discussion is against the match rules or not. However, there are clear rules for applicant-program interactions (namely, that each party can make statements of interest, but solicitation of interest is clearly not allowed). I think programs that violate this policy should be reported. I agree with others who state that many programs violate these rules out of ignorance. However, that does not take away from the offense.

The match is approaching soon. I am anxious myself and I wanted to wish everyone the best of luck in matching at a top-choice program.

 

[stephew]

i have to tell you, i seriously down if most programs are negotiating with each other. its not in their interests.