LTbulldogs

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I am currently a pre-med student who has been researching different career choices in medicine. I have no intentions at all to pursue nursing as a career, but I find it extremely awkward that there are some CRNA's who have a higher starting salary than some Medical Doctors. My heart is pretty much set on doing Emergency Medicine. However, as I was researching, I found it a bit awkward that the starting salary for an Emergency Medicine Physician was around the same as it was for some fresh-out-of-school Crna's. Maybe it?s just me but doesn?t it seem a little awkward that in some cases, the nurse is making more money than the Physician. Or in a more relative situation, the Crna is making more money than the surgeon. Isn?t there something wrong here? Or am I just wrong for thinking this way?
 

LTbulldogs

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Well, I guess im just some greedy old sorry bastard with no morals and a seriously bad case of genital warts +pity+

God help me!!
 

MSTP boy

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Originally posted by LTbulldogs
However, as I was researching, I found it a bit awkward that the starting salary for an Emergency Medicine Physician was around the same as it was for some fresh-out-of-school Crna's. Maybe it?s just me but doesn?t it seem a little awkward that in some cases, the nurse is making more money than the Physician. Or in a more relative situation, the Crna is making more money than the surgeon.


The salary ranges OVERLAP, but they are not *higher*.

Also...you are probably referring to CRNA nurse anethesiosologists...but I think you are compared apples to oranges. You are comparing exceptions to exceptions..the salary ranges overlap, but remember a salary can be lower when a physician is buying into a practice, or practicing on a locum tenens.

Job listings for CRNA often require 5-10 years experience....it is NOT starting salary just because it is listed in the job description.

Also, just because a position lists "$70-90,000 does NOT really mean the "starting" salary is 90k..it means that 90k is for people with tremendous experience.

Frankly, I think you are trying to pull straws. Does an experienced CRNA make more than a starting physician in a practice? Absolutely it happens. But, *in general*, the physician makes more...otherwise it all depends on how the practice dynamics work, the practice location, etc. I'm sure most CRNAs in San francisco make more than FP's in Dakota..but you cannot compare across locations like this.

Dollar for dollar, you would hard pressed to find an average NP or CRNA whose gross salary outdoes an practising physician for the same years in the workplace.
 
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LTbulldogs

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The reason I brought this up was because I've seen several offers to crna's where the starting salary was $200,000...and then in the same city or state, the starting offers for an internist or pediatrician would usually begin around $120,000 or $150,000....I was just comparing the nurse and the physician...not the specialties....I just found it a little odd that a nurse at any given time could possibly be making more money than a physician...
 

mpp

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What about an actor that makes 10X or an athlete that makes 50X. This society values strange things sometimes...
 

Pre-Dent-David

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I wonder how long untill some nurse sees this and starts bitching about how they "earned" it.
 

blindsight

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Nurses should be happy to make any money at all. If it wasn't for nursing they would be at home cooking dinner and making babies.
 

medic8m

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As a nurse entering medicine, I considered the CRNA route. I can verify the salaries. My friend just finished the program at USC. To enroll you need a minimum 1 year "unit" experience and a Bachelors. His starting salary is $160,000 not to mention the $500.00 a case he makes with a local plastic surgeon on his days off. It is an attractive option but in the end one must consider what they really want to do every day.

and whats up with that comment about nurses cooking and making babies???!
 

blindsight

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Originally posted by medic8m
and whats up with that comment about nurses cooking and making babies???!
personally, i don't find the notion of cooking babies too appealing. but who am i to judge?
 

orthoman5000

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I was a CRNA for a year before starting medical school....

Constantly Reamed Nurses Aide
 

LTbulldogs

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"reamed?"...when you say reamed i'll assume you mean you put the ol' pencil in the pencil sharpener.....Its funny you mentioned that though because the first time that I ever shadowed a doctor, it was an anesthesiologist. And the first day that I arrived at the hospital the anesthesiologist was on vacation and the nurse anesthetist had to fill in. And all he could talk about was how he and his anesthetist buddies love doing all of the nurses and how all the nurses love the crna's....He said it was basically a never-ending pile of "reaming" fun....
 
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LTbulldogs

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AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO FINDS THE FOLLOWING TOTALLY DISGUSTING??? REMEMBER THIS IS A NURSE





9560
Texas

Starts: STAT
This is a Permanent Position
Certificate Required?: YES
Skills Required: Mostly OB and some general cases. Paying $200k - 1099. CARDIO cases available to right CRNA, paying $215k - 1099!!!
Description: 4 CRNA's needed in TEXAS 6 OR's 6 weeks vacation 1 in 9 call medical insurance- retirement - malpractice PAID (W2 position) W2 position pays $170k plus benefits 1099 available if requested 1099 position pays $200k 6 weeks vacation 6 O.R.'s 1 in 9 call ----------------- mostly OB and some general cases. 1 CRNA needed for CARDIO cases. CARDIO CRNA pay is $215k - 1099. CAll Steve toll free at 866-458-2900 TODAY.

Date Posted: 2004-02-06


AND NOTHING ABOUT THIS JOB OFFER IS ABNORMAL!! I SEE THIS KIND OF MONEY OFFERED FREQUENTLY.......SOME SPECIALIST CAN ONLY DREAM TO MAKE THAT MUCH......FORGET IT!!!.....I GUESS THAT I'M JUST AN IMMATURE, MONEY HUNGRY, CRACK-ABUSING UNDERGRAD....... IM JUST A SHALLOW OLD STUPID BASTARD IS ALL I AM.....I GUESS THEY DESERVE IT?? RIGHT??

WOW!! UNBELIEVABLE!!! I GUESS MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING!!!!...IM FINISHED RANTING, THIS IS MY LAST POST ON THE SUBJECT...
 

Samoa

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You really have to view the salary in comparison to what an anaesthesiologist makes, rather than a doctor in some other specialty. Advanced practice nurses, as a rule, do not make more than the physician in their specialty, though they might make more than a physician in another, lower risk specialty.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it. The salary wouldn't be so high if the demand wasn't there, or if there were a sufficient number of anaesthesiologists to handle all those cases.
 

kyra201

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Originally posted by dave262
Bulldog,

CRNAs make a fraction of what anesthesiologists make. But they do make more than FP's or pediatricians. If this issue is eating you up, go talk to an anesthesiologist about it. However, there are very few CRNAs and they dont enjoy the clinical privileges that Physicians do.

They are taught all about how to perform anesthesiology, but not why. Since they are very skilled however, they take some cases off the anesthesiologists hands. This makes society a better place, since there are not enough anesth. to go around.

There is no guarantee that if you go into nursing you will get into CRNA school. You have to fight for it. And, at the end of the day, when you meet a chick at the bar you still have to say: "im a nurse.":horns:

My uncle's an anesthesiologist, and he works closely with several CRNA's. Personally he thinks they have a great job. They are taught how to perform anesthesiology, and if any emergency should arise, they call him to straighten it out. Their pay is definitely a fraction of what he makes but may be more than the starting salaries (especially if they work overtime) of some of the surgeons. Granted, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence... and the CRNA's he worked with were certified at a time when it wasn't as competitive to get into a program.

Btw... LTBulldog, I don't really find the figures disgusting... I'm sure Texas has a shortage of anesthesiologists and need CRNA's to fill up the slack. And considering how boring I personally find anesthesia to be... you can't pay be enough to be an anesthesiologist OR CRNA. :D But that's just me.
 

medic8m

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Originally posted by dave262

There is no guarantee that if you go into nursing you will get into CRNA school. You have to fight for it. And, at the end of the day, when you meet a chick at the bar you still have to say: "im a nurse.":horns:

However, by the time you are actually making enough money to impress the chick at the bar you'll be too old to be picking up chicks at bars...
 
D

dave262

tru dat....wait, how old will i be when I finish residency? thats right. 32. sigh.... back to studying on a friday night....

euthenasia anyone?
 

kendall

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i can certainly see how it could be disheartening to a doc to learn that a nurse is making $200K/yr. i'll tell you something more disheartening: there are CRNA's out there that run CRNA agencies employing numerous other CRNAs which provide nurse anesthetist services to several surgical practices, and these nurses are making >$500K/yr. (but this is because they are savvy business people)

more to consider:

there are nurse practicioners making $100K/yr.
cardiac perfusionists making $90K/yr.
cytotechnologists making $80K/yr.

and so on and so on...

there are plenty of docs out there making less than all of these.

the practice of medicine is changing: nurses are getting script rites, PA's already have them. doctors don't know how to operate the new computer equipment, and the techs read images better (sometimes:eek: ). very few areas of medicine are protected from the onslaught of "allied health professionals". surgical fields are probably the most protected. noone is ever going to let someone cut on them without having had the minimum 5 years residency. (although Sx residents do cut, the majority of the public is not really aware of that fact.)

there could be seriously different:( times ahead for many kinds of docs. if a hospital can get 2 PA's or NP's for the price of 1 doc, what is going to stop them. picture the student health clinic at (insert your university); one doc sitting in the lounge drinking coffee while PA's see all the patients, the doc doing chart reviews once a day? week? month?

this scenario is not unusual, and not terribly dissimilar to the relationship between anesthesiologists and CRNAs.

of course docs will still be needed, but reimbursements have been and will continue to drop. so, i guess what i'm saying is that we definitely need to be going into medicine for a reason other than the money

sorry, this is getting depressing. i'll shut up.

k
 

PublicHealth

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Originally posted by kendall
surgical fields are probably the most protected. no one is ever going to let someone cut on them without having had the minimum 5 years residency. (although Sx residents do cut, the majority of the public is not really aware of that fact.)

k

Surgical PAs can perform surgery. Cornell actually has a PA program that focus on surgery: http://www.med.cornell.edu/education/pa/
 

NonTradMed

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Originally posted by LTbulldogs
AND NOTHING ABOUT THIS JOB OFFER IS ABNORMAL!! I SEE THIS KIND OF MONEY OFFERED FREQUENTLY.......SOME SPECIALIST CAN ONLY DREAM TO MAKE THAT MUCH......FORGET IT!!!.....I GUESS THAT I'M JUST AN IMMATURE, MONEY HUNGRY, CRACK-ABUSING UNDERGRAD....... IM JUST A SHALLOW OLD STUPID BASTARD IS ALL I AM.....I GUESS THEY DESERVE IT?? RIGHT??

WOW!! UNBELIEVABLE!!! I GUESS MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING!!!!...IM FINISHED RANTING, THIS IS MY LAST POST ON THE SUBJECT...

Whoa, seems to me like someone has issues.....

I have yet to hear people explain WHY doctors "deserve" to be paid X amt more than nurses, PAs etc. Yes, physicians are in school longer, and yes they hold more responsiblities, but if the demand is there, why would we build artificial barriers to income? I mean, phds are also in school longer, is it fair someone with half their education is making twice the pay?

As far as I see it, in this country (US), if there are less skilled people who can provide the same amount of care for cheaper, there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it.

Our country flourished b/c of the ever increasing ways we make our industry efficient. Countries which create artificial barriers to entry in jobs stymies growth and wastes valuable resources.

Health care is like other industry in its allocation of resources. It is wasteful to have an intelligent person spent ten years in school only to be doing something someone trained for less time can do. This also means less efficiency for hospitals or are already in the red. What good does it do to pay for that premium of an MD if the MD offers no benefits aside from a higher cost?

In cash starved hospitals, ideally, if they can find cheaper replacements for the same quality of service, it's going to happen. Whining about it does no one a service....not the physician who would otherwise be doing work that someone who spent less years in school can do competently, nor for the patient paying an extra premium for overpriced services, nor the hospital who is wasting money on misallocating resources.

There will always be need for MDs but we can't believe that the MD is impervious to the principles of supply and demand. Remember, our society strives for efficiency. If quality can be maintained at a lower price.....give me a reason how we as MDs can prevent the public from wanting that?
 

aphistis

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Originally posted by NonTradMed
Whoa, seems to me like someone has issues.....

I have yet to hear people explain WHY doctors "deserve" to be paid X amt more than nurses, PAs etc. Yes, physicians are in school longer, and yes they hold more responsiblities, but if the demand is there, why would we build artificial barriers to income? I mean, phds are also in school longer, is it fair someone with half their education is making twice the pay?

As far as I see it, in this country (US), if there are less skilled people who can provide the same amount of care for cheaper, there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it.

Our country flourished b/c of the ever increasing ways we make our industry efficient. Countries which create artificial barriers to entry in jobs stymies growth and wastes valuable resources.

Health care is like other industry in its allocation of resources. It is wasteful to have an intelligent person spent ten years in school only to be doing something someone trained for less time can do. This also means less efficiency for hospitals or are already in the red. What good does it do to pay for that premium of an MD if the MD offers no benefits aside from a higher cost?

In cash starved hospitals, ideally, if they can find cheaper replacements for the same quality of service, it's going to happen. Whining about it does no one a service....not the physician who would otherwise be doing work that someone who spent less years in school can do competently, nor for the patient paying an extra premium for overpriced services, nor the hospital who is wasting money on misallocating resources.

There will always be need for MDs but we can't believe that the MD is impervious to the principles of supply and demand. Remember, our society strives for efficiency. If quality can be maintained at a lower price.....give me a reason how we as MDs can prevent the public from wanting that?
Bingo. Everyone loves the free market till it bites *them* in the gluteals. We've got the same thing going with hygienists, and organized dentistry is fighting tooth and nail to preserve scope-of-practice boundaries..
 

juddson

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Question:

If a CRNA is capable of providing quality gas without increasing levels of morbidity and mortality, what is the basis for all the extra years of training required of an MDA?

And before you say that somebody had to be able to do the "hard" cases, explain to me why, then, that job offer has listing for a cardiac CRNA? Christ - a cardiac MDA training is a freaking fellowship AFTER the regular gas residency. Why do MDA's need special fellowship training to push gas in a cardio case while a CRNA seems to be doing it already? I mean, if cardio gas is not "advanced" I frankly don't know what is.

In any event, as I have been saying on some of the other threads. No political barrier (ie, whining) urged by MD's is going to prevent allied health professionals from doing your jobs unless you can show higher morbidity or mortality rates. The free market naturally looks for the cheapest labor, and as long as they are just as good, you haven't a leg to stand on.

I've been giving Gas a lot of thought lately, but I think, perhaps, all the extra training an MDA gets is pricing them out of the market for gas providers.

Judd
 

kendall

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PA's may do some "suturing and minor lesion removal", but i doubt you will see any abdominal/thoracic cavity opening or laproscopic work being done by PA's. and certainly we will NEVER see a PA doing ANY kind of neuroSx, uroSx, vascular (endo or open), orthoSx, and so on. lets hope i am right.

k
 

zambezi

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Originally posted by blindsight
Nurses should be happy to make any money at all. If it wasn't for nursing they would be at home cooking dinner and making babies.

I am not going to get into an argument about this--but even as a joke (which, I am sure this was, right?)
Was this comment necessary? I think not.
 

medic8m

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Its hard to believe, he must be joking..

Seriously folks, be nice to nurses, they really can make your life better (or worse).

Sidenote: be nice to unit secretaries as well, they can REALLY be helpful (make things happen quickly)
 

auster

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Originally posted by medic8m
Its hard to believe, he must be joking..

Seriously folks, be nice to nurses, they really can make your life better (or worse).

Sidenote: be nice to unit secretaries as well, they can REALLY be helpful (make things happen quickly)
Or another option - be nice to people regardless of what they can do for you... [sorry, I have always hated the phrase "be nice to ____ because they can _____ for you"]
 

medic8m

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Originally posted by auster
Or another option - be nice to people regardless of what they can do for you... [sorry, I have always hated the phrase "be nice to ____ because they can _____ for you"]

Just some friendly advice, I wasn't suggesting you SHOULDN'T be nice to those that can't do anything for you.

peace
 

Finally M3

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Some of the people on this thread have some anger issues...

Hey Juddson, I think I saw you posting in the Gas board on the CRNAs practicing w/o MDA supervision. Do you have any info on what their malpractice rates are v MDAs? It would be interesting to see...

I blame all the older physicians for opening the door on these scope-of-practice issues because they wanted to use 'cheap' labor instead of hiring MDs....
 
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