Do u guys think MCAT scores are indicative of how well you will do on your boards?
MCAT scores indicative of Board Scores?
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nir1009 said:
No.
They contain completely different material. Perhaps they could be an indication of how well you do on standardized tests, but since there is so much math on the MCAT and so little math on the USMLE, they are way too different. I had a much harder time with the MCAT and felt like I didn't know the answer to anything. I felt good about a majority of my answers on the USMLE.
nir1009 said:
YES, there are many published studies linking MCAT score performance to board scores. Obviously the material is different, but in the end, both are exams of memory and deductive reasoning. Its obvious that if you do well on one test of memory and deductive reasoning, you will do well on other one.
OSUdoc08... so if it indicates how well you do on standardized test, how does doing well on the MCAT not suggest you will do well on the Step 1 since they are both standardized test?!? Thats contradictory.
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I'll try to stick in a quick comment before this thread evolves into World War III...
There is a correlation between MCAT score and USMLE score. There may as well be a correlation between SAT and MCAT and between Weschler Intelligence Quotient and all of the above.
That is not to say that someone can not do well on one exam and poorly on another. Preparation time, study strategy, interest in the material, mental hygeine, and intelligence are integral to your experience.
My impresion of this exam is that it tries to assess how much you have learned in the first, two years of medical school. Very intelligent people may be able to take shortcuts to extremely high scores without scoring hundreds on exams first and second year. People who destroy first and second year probably do not need to study nearly as much to produce an equally high score.
There are people who struggle to pass first and second year who do well. There are people who bomb the MCAT and do extremely well. Yes, if you do well on standardized exams, than you will probably do well on the USMLE. But do not count on probability. Aim to be an outlier. Spread that confidence interval. Study as much as you can to get the score you want to have. I have been told that NBME practice assessments correlate wonderfully with observed exam performances. I sincerely hope this is true. I was never thrilled with my NBME performances, but about a third of the actual exam was Freddy meets Jason meets Mike Myers meets Godzilla. Do-able? mostly. Easy? No. Was I relying on smarts or hard work? Hard to tell.
I wish you the best of luck! When in doubt, work harder!
There is a correlation between MCAT score and USMLE score. There may as well be a correlation between SAT and MCAT and between Weschler Intelligence Quotient and all of the above.
That is not to say that someone can not do well on one exam and poorly on another. Preparation time, study strategy, interest in the material, mental hygeine, and intelligence are integral to your experience.
My impresion of this exam is that it tries to assess how much you have learned in the first, two years of medical school. Very intelligent people may be able to take shortcuts to extremely high scores without scoring hundreds on exams first and second year. People who destroy first and second year probably do not need to study nearly as much to produce an equally high score.
There are people who struggle to pass first and second year who do well. There are people who bomb the MCAT and do extremely well. Yes, if you do well on standardized exams, than you will probably do well on the USMLE. But do not count on probability. Aim to be an outlier. Spread that confidence interval. Study as much as you can to get the score you want to have. I have been told that NBME practice assessments correlate wonderfully with observed exam performances. I sincerely hope this is true. I was never thrilled with my NBME performances, but about a third of the actual exam was Freddy meets Jason meets Mike Myers meets Godzilla. Do-able? mostly. Easy? No. Was I relying on smarts or hard work? Hard to tell.
I wish you the best of luck! When in doubt, work harder!
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Psychopath - you are a very entertaining writer. I totally agree with what you say.
If you were a betting person, which of the following two groups do you think would get a better USMLE score?
Group A: 28 average MCAT
Group B: 42 average MCAT
Of course there's a correlation, but as Psychopathology said so much more eloquently than I ever could, it's a loose one. Hard work and study skills in the second (and first year) make much more of a difference.
If you were a betting person, which of the following two groups do you think would get a better USMLE score?
Group A: 28 average MCAT
Group B: 42 average MCAT
Of course there's a correlation, but as Psychopathology said so much more eloquently than I ever could, it's a loose one. Hard work and study skills in the second (and first year) make much more of a difference.
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The MCAT is a very weak predictor of the USMLE - reason MCAT is time stress based test over general science content and reading skills and the USMLE is a "Content based test" with moderate time stress. There is a website that has a USMLE predictor with the MCAT - play around with it and you will see it is not that good of a predictor. I agree with the above post.
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exmike said:
I'm not good at math.
There is a massive amount of math on the MCAT.
There is a minimal amount of math on the USMLE.
Assuming that I missed every math question but did well on the other sections, I automatically would have done much better on the USMLE.
If I was bad at standardized tests, however, I would have simply done poorly on both of them.
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OSUdoc08 said:
1) Anecdotal evidence.
2) Feeling good about USMLE answers is not equal to doing well.
3) Assumption that mathematical ability is completely unrelated to the reasoning ability required for USMLE. A lack of strictly mathematical problems does not mean that mathematical ability does not aid in answering non-mathematical problems.
4) "A considerable difference was noted when median correlations were compared for UGPA predicting Step 1 (median R=.48) versus MCAT predicting Step 1 (median R=.72)." http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/koeni008.htm
To the OP, the MCAT helps to predict how well you will do on the USMLE Step 1. However, you can't just say, "I got a 43, so I don't need to study." Either hard work or significant slacking can make or break your Step 1. You are not locked in to scoring in the same "equivalent" range in both your MCAT and Step 1, but don't expect a significant change in your results without a similar significant change in your study habits.
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OSUdoc08 said:
Well I was looking for something to put me to sleep. Thanks!
OSU, take your homosexual avatar and go back to the DO forums and whine to your friends there. You are the boring one.
These moderators need to step in before you get outta control!
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Flobber said:
If you're going to diss and flame DO students, please don't ask us for advice:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=279441
You don't deserve it.
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OSUdoc08 said:
Yes, and I'm sure you are going to go into Family Medicine/Pediatrics/Bunny-Hugging because you are so compassionate and received such a more humanistic education. What was I thinking even trying to speak to a transcendental being such as you? I apologize, Superman. Please don't blast me with your super-cool red eyes.
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OSUdoc08 said:
Well I was looking for something to put me to sleep. Thanks!
Why is it whenever someone gives you a cogent counterargument, you reply with some idiotic non sequitur? Watch, you're going to respond to this by saying that whatever you say on "the internets" has nothing to do with what you're like as a person. The person who rebutted you had a really strong argument. Why do you not acknowledge the validity of another person's argument, especially if it is an argument against yours? Are you this much of a tool in person?
jameslynton said:
I could have sworn that the USMLE is time stress based... with 50 questions to complete in 1 hour, times 7 blocks, with question stems longer than any MCAT question... requiring reading (and reasoning) skills. The MCAT at least has huge vignettes with a large number of questions regarding one passage. I'm helping my cousin study right now for step 1 by quizzing her, and there seems to be a lot of reading and reasoning.
As for those who are pro correlation, which section is most likely the best correlated? Bio?
Anecdotally, I know a 42R who scored 256. Obviously people with good test-taking skills will likely do well. Then again, there are those few from the Caribbean every year with 240's... of course most of those schools allot an entire semester devoted to study, off island in somewhere like Miami, rather than the 5-8 week M2 "vacation" US schools grant. So perhaps rote memorization could play some role. I don't think people with low MCAT scores should feel doomed, but at the same time, I don't think people with sky high MCAT's should be worried?
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anon-y-mouse said:
I disagree with this. On the MCAT, I had little time left after each section. At the end of the USMLE, I had a few hours remaining of time.
On the MCAT, you are required to do a large number of mathematical calculations, which may require longer time for those of us who are mathematically challenged.
P.S. Responding to me with statistics, mathematics, or anything of the sort reminds me of high school economics. I brought an airline pillow to class every day.
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OSUdoc08 said:
How well did you do on MCAT bio (which has no math)? How well did you do on the USMLE? Perhaps you are one of the lucky cases who overcame his test-taking issues to do well on the USMLE. Good job. My 250's+ friends (well, all of like 4 people) all were down to the wire on the questions.
And ok fine, I guess point taken about responding with math... if you're unable to cope up with it, I guess there's nothing anyone can do to help you.
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You missed that I said "moderate time stress" - the MCAT is 7 plus hours also. It is designed to filter out slow readers. Where as an average 500-600 words per minute reader can read a 50 Q Step 1 block in 28-34 minutes. That is moderate time stress. The verbal reasoning on the MCAT is designed to not be finished with a 400-500 words per minute read rate. Now that is high time stress. Also each test block on the MCAT is human timed and monitored. A more test stressed envirnoment is created. Where as on the step 1 it is computer and self monitored with a monitor watching you. Both are endurance contests to keep focus. I took the GRE on a computer and scored 700's to get in grad school. It was much less stressful than the August MCAT I took at ASU last August. I found it interesting that people/testers walked out during each section of the tests. Just gave up. We lost about 20% of the testers in the room I was in.anon-y-mouse said:
I agree with you - being testwise does help on both or any test.
anon-y-mouse said:
Funny thing is most of the studies indicate that the correlation is the strongest between the Bio (read: MATHLESS) section of the MCAT and the USMLE. Hmm.. so much for the math arguement.
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OSUdoc08 said:
Well I was looking for something to put me to sleep. Thanks!
Glad I could help.
exmike said:
This argument doesn't make much sense to me. You are basically saying: doctors are the most likely people to own a boat, therefore lawyers do not own boats.
In a 2002 study, PS (a math intensive subject) correlation to Step 1 resulted in r = .491. BS had r = .553. It would be a stretch to say that PS has no bearing on your USMLE score by these results.
Basco, W.T., Jr., Way, D.P., Gilbert, G.E., & Hudson, A. (2002). Undergraduate Institutional MCAT Scores as Predictors of USMLE Step 1 Performance. Academic Medicine, 77, S13-S16.
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one question on hardy-weinberg and one question on determining fraction of carriers of lethal gene (for example)... two questions at most, and both question topics are covered on the USMLE to boot. 2/77. that's like, 2%.OSUdoc08 said:
one of my friends also got a deriving a regression formula question on step 1. and there's plenty of stats on step 1, much more than on the MCAT.
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OSUdoc08 said:
I actually liked your Mavs avatar. Be a true fan and keep it up. Don't be embarrassed. They played well this year.
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Long Dong said:
I am confused. The majority of people participating (self-selecting, I am sure) had above a 220, regardless of MCAT score. What point is this proving? Or just wanted to show that there is a non-statistical, biased pool of the people who (like myself) have nothing better to do with their lives than read them?
I found this in my search, as I too was curious as to the correlation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12742783&dopt=Abstract
PURPOSE: To compare the USMLE performances of students of various ethnicities, predominantly Pacific Islander and Asian, at one medical school and to examine the predictive validity of MCAT scores for USMLE performance. METHOD: A total of 258 students in the graduating classes of 1996-2000 at the University of Hawai'i School of Medicine were classified by ethnicity. Demographic and performance characteristics of the groups were examined, and MCAT scores with and without undergraduate science GPA were used to predict USMLE performance. Under- and over-prediction rates were computed for each ethnic group. RESULTS: Ethnic groups did not differ significantly by gender or undergraduate GPA. Chinese, Caucasian, and Other Asian students tended to have higher MCAT scores than Hawaiian/other Pacific Islander, and Filipino students. Ethnic groups did not differ significantly in prediction of USMLE Step 1 performance. For Step 2, MCAT scores significantly over-predicted performance of Filipino students and tended to under-predict performance of Caucasian students. CONCLUSION: Although MCAT scores and science GPA were good predictors of USMLE performance, ethnic differences were found in the degrees of their predictive validity. These findings both replicate and extend results of earlier studies, and again point to the importance of exploring additional predictor variables. The authors encourage future research on the effects of the following factors on success in medical school: reading and test-taking skills, socio-cultural and environmental influences on learning, communication styles, primary language use, family support, and family responsibilities.
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Regardelss of someone's MCAT score...I would put my money on someone who rocked their first two years of medical school and studied their butts of for BOARDS. If you want to do well on BOARDS be a good student for two years and put in 10 hour days the month and a half before BOARDS. I studied for BOARDS for about a million hours...MCATS for 12 days...do the math
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This looks like a journal article designed to get a newbie psychology/education grad student a publication. Population > 30, correlate GPA and MCAT with USMLE score Most likely threw the numbers against the wall using SPSS or SAS. Got another two or three lines on the ol' CV. Now if the researcher had given a motivation measurement test to boot - then the article would be of value.Dancing Doctor said:
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I have read that the biggest correlation is between USMLE and ur MCAT verbal score, not sure why though - may simply be that's it's deductive reasoning mostly
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OSUdoc08 said:
Come on...that's the attitude of a fair-weather fan. You seemed pretty diehard before this.
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Actually no mystery there - has to do with verbal reading speed and comprehension.fasteddieb85 said:
It's not hard to figure out. Of course someone who did crappy on the MCAT and just took the USMLE (probably no scores back yet), is going to argue there is no correlation. I hope you did great so you can post back here in a couple weeks and say "SEE, I had a 20 MCAT and a 240 USMLE." The ODDS are that if you did will on the MCAT then you are the type of student that will do well on the USMLE. Of course it's not the case EVERY time. To find out more about odds, go to the professionals at www.vegas.com. My money is on the 42 MCAT as well.
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badgas said:
Well said!
This is always such a funny argument because when you suggest that MCAT, GPA or whatever might happen to correlate with things like success in med school or USMLE score someone always says "well that's not the case with me so that is not true." I always wonder what people like this (I know several) think should be used to evaluate candidates to med school, I mean, obviously THEY proved that GPA and MCAT don't mean anything at all...
Nice to see that all of us med students are really up on our EBM, what with accepting studies where n=1...
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AmoryBlaine said:
And to make things worse, these n=1 studies don't even use random sampling!
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fasteddieb85 said:
I am fairly sure verbal has the best correlation with USMLE Step 2, but the lowest (of the individual MCAT scores) with Step 1. I haven't verified before posting, but I was looking at these studies yesterday.
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nir1009 said:
ANSWER: No.
I'm a perfect example that there is no correlation. I got a 30 on the MCAT, which I think is mediocre. I even took a Kaplan Prep class.
On both my USMLE boards (Step 1 and 2), I achieved scores above 240. At the time (a few years ago), my scores were about 2 times over the standard deviation. I only used "First Aid" as my study guide.
