MD advantage in matching into competitive specialties

[DNAJB6]

How great is the MD bias in matching into competitive fields like cards, derm, ortho, etc? If we have genuine interests in those fields (aside from monetary considerations), would it be advisable to forgo applying to DO schools during the first admissions cycle? Assume the applicant has MD quality stats and doesn't mind reapplying a second cycle (adding DO applications at that time) if necessary.

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[hydrophobicmed]

How great is the MD bias in matching into competitive fields like cards, derm, ortho, etc? If we have genuine interests in those fields (aside from monetary considerations), would it be advisable to forgo applying to DO schools during the first admissions cycle? Assume the applicant has MD quality stats and doesn't mind reapplying a second cycle (adding DO applications at that time) if necessary.

Not sure about cards, since that is a fellowship. It’s probably very competitive so it definitively gives an advantage if one comes from a top IM residency program. As I cursorily checked residents at those programs, I didn’t see any DO’s. Ortho and derm had their own aoa residencies, but after the merger, those spots will open to MD’s now, so I assume they will get super competitive too.

 

[deleted962973]

How great is the MD bias in matching into competitive fields like cards, derm, ortho, etc? If we have genuine interests in those fields (aside from monetary considerations), would it be advisable to forgo applying to DO schools during the first admissions cycle? Assume the applicant has MD quality stats and doesn't mind reapplying a second cycle (adding DO applications at that time) if necessary.

The best source is NRMP match data from 2019.

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/NRMP-Results-and-Data-2019_04112019_final.pdf

For reference, there are about 20,000 USMD graduates a year and about 5,500 DOs. The other 8,000 spots are filled by IMGs. So all things being equal, you would expect around a 1:4 ratio of DOs to USMDs in each specialty, which you do see in things like family med, emergency med, and peds. However, the proportion of DOs does go down quite drastically for the most competitive fields. 30/447 spots in derm were filled by DOs. 13/328 for ENT, 4/232 for neurosurg, 2/172 in plastics, and 15/755 in ortho.

Surprisingly derm looks the most “DO-friendly”. I think, unfortunately, MDs offer better research opportunities and rec letters from more well-known faculty and this may explain why not too many DOs match into the hypercompetitive fields. That’s not a reason to not apply DO if your app isn’t competitive for MD. It’s better to have a chance at being a doctor in one of these fields than to not have the chance at all.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

The best way to compare MD vs DO is to look at their respective Charting Outcomes in the Match Reports

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-Seniors.pdf

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-Osteo.pdf

The answers aren't simple and this takes some digging and thinking.

 

[CidHighwind]

Honestly, I feel like even marginal MD candidates should only apply DO if they have to reapply MD. The bias is real, don’t let the 270/280s DO superstars with 10 publications that you only hear about on SDN fool you.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

would it be advisable to forgo applying to DO schools during the first admissions cycle? Assume the applicant has MD quality stats and doesn't mind reapplying a second cycle (adding DO applications at that time) if necessary.

Yes. /thread

Apply DO if you have to apply again a second cycle and then just go where you get in. Hustle everyday to get where you want to get to.

Honestly, I feel like even marginal MD candidates should only apply DO if they have to reapply MD. The bias is real, don’t let the 270/280s DO superstars with 10 publications that you only hear about on SDN fool you.

This. These superstars do exist, and every pre-med thinks they will be able to replicate their success when the reality is that they almost assuredly won't.

 

[DNAJB6]

Thanks everyone!

 

[Goro]

How great is the MD bias in matching into competitive fields like cards, derm, ortho, etc? If we have genuine interests in those fields (aside from monetary considerations), would it be advisable to forgo applying to DO schools during the first admissions cycle? Assume the applicant has MD quality stats and doesn't mind reapplying a second cycle (adding DO applications at that time) if necessary.

Read this:
www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

And it depends on whether or not you should apply to DO schools on cycle 1. Some people have stats that mandate they apply to both, otherwise they will lose a year of clinician income.

And honestly, I feel that if you have median MD stats (3.71 GPA/511 MCAT), it's worth having a few DO schools on the list, especially if one is from CA. It's insurance.

 

[deleted480308]

It doesn’t cost a ton to apply to some DO schools, then if you aren’t good enough for MD you don’t burn a year salary just to admit your competitiveness.

I don’t get the hubris of assuming you’ll be top 20% of med students to get into something competitive if you aren’t even IN med school yet

 

[PhillyMed777]

How great is the MD bias in matching into competitive fields like cards, derm, ortho, etc? If we have genuine interests in those fields (aside from monetary considerations), would it be advisable to forgo applying to DO schools during the first admissions cycle? Assume the applicant has MD quality stats and doesn't mind reapplying a second cycle (adding DO applications at that time) if necessary.

There is a very great MD bias for dermatology. Exceptions who are DO are truly the exception, and the rare time it occurs they are very talented people who somehow ended up at DO, but also have the backing of prominent and well known academic derms. As a current resident, I can confirm we interviewed 0 DOs last year, and 0 DOs this year.
Cards would not be considered competitive. One can even go to community IM programs and match cards.

I did not get into MD my first time, and am glad I did not co-apply DO. When I re-applied to MD schools my second time I got in. This also very much motivated me to be the best medical student and I out-worked everyone around me, and in turn, I matched dermatology.
If you have MD stats, I'd recommend trying just MD first. Also the clinical opportunities at strong MD schools are not comparable to DO schools. Being a part of a large very academic referral center means you'll see amazing cases and see every field perform to its utmost possibility. If that doesn't interest you, I guess it may be a baseless point.

Dermatology training programs are largely based out of large academic centers, and often see extremely specialized cases. If you haven't seen this kind of stuff at your school and are only seeing private high volume softball type cases, how can you convince me you'd be the best fit for these highly academic spots? If you are at one of these places from the get-go, you have several years to accumulate quality experience.

 

[Cawolf]

Look at ophthalmology as an example. Last year there was an 85% match rate for US seniors that got at least 1 interview, 433 spots. US DO seniors had a 38% match rate, 16 spots. We don't have this years stats yet, but assuming it is similar, if someone wants to go into ophthalmology they should not go to a DO school. I imagine the numbers are so low due to self-selection and limited home program exposure, but the bias definitely exists.

 

[DNAJB6]

It doesn’t cost a ton to apply to some DO schools, then if you aren’t good enough for MD you don’t burn a year salary just to admit your competitiveness.

I don’t get the hubris of assuming you’ll be top 20% of med students to get into something competitive if you aren’t even IN med school yet

There was no hubris involved nor any assumptions on my part about admission prospects to medical school or any residency program. I wouldn't be that naive. I obviously don't have clinical grades or a Step 1 score. I merely don't want to close doors before my career even begins. I was trying to determine whether a second bite at the allopathic medical school apple is worth more than the year of lost income.

Thanks to everyone for the insight!

 

[CidHighwind]

Read this:
www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

And it depends on whether or not you should apply to DO schools on cycle 1. Some people have stats that mandate they apply to both, otherwise they will lose a year of clinician income.

And honestly, I feel that if you have median MD stats (3.71 GPA/511 MCAT), it's worth having a few DO schools on the list, especially if one is from CA. It's insurance.

But then if you get into one of those DO schools and would rather have MD, you may go into DO without retrying for MD and improving your app. Maybe one didn’t have enough clinical experience, or research, or something else that is fixable. Or maybe you just applied to SDN circlejerk schools instead of more reasonable ones. Even though you’ll lose a year of income, if your goal is to specialize, one could argue that one would end up coming out ahead financially overall if you go MD and specialize making 300k+ vs primary care making 200+. YMMV

 

[Goro]

But then if you get into one of those DO schools and would rather have MD, you may go into DO without retrying for MD and improving your app. Maybe one didn’t have enough clinical experience, or research, or something else that is fixable. Or maybe you just applied to SDN circlejerk schools instead of more reasonable ones. Even though you’ll lose a year of income, if your goal is to specialize, one could argue that one would end up coming out ahead financially overall if you go MD and specialize making 300k+ vs primary care making 200+. YMMV

I think that my young colleague and I are making similar points. First off, there's no denying that MD grads have more open doors. DOs clearly have doors shut on them (but they are cracking open).

My particular point is NOT about the uber-specialties. It's about how fast do you want to be a doctor?

 

[CidHighwind]

I think that my young colleague and I are making similar points. First off, there's no denying that MD grads have more open doors. DOs clearly have doors shut on them (but they are cracking open).

My particular point is NOT about the uber-specialties. It's about how fast do you want to be a doctor?

Fair, but I think it’s fair to ask “what type”. Even moderately competitive specialties like gas, EM, and psych are a lot harder as a DO

 

[Shunsui]

What about chances of landing anesthesia as DO? I wouldn’t put it in the category of ortho and derm so is there a probably chance of getting a spot in gas as a DO?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[Goro]

Fair, but I think it’s fair to ask “what type”. Even moderately competitive specialties like gas, EM, and psych are a lot harder as a DO

That hasn't bothered my students, or or others. In fact, the 3rd most populous specialty for DOs is EM.

 

[enchantments]

What about chances of landing anesthesia as DO? I wouldn’t put it in the category of ortho and derm so is there a probably chance of getting a spot in gas as a DO?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Per 2018 Charting outcomes, 90% of Osteopathic seniors that had gas as a preferred specialty, matched. So I would say it's very doable. And just anecdotally, when I was looking at the match list at DO schools I've been accepted to, they have routinely matched their students into university programs

Some examples:

KCU: https://cdn.agilitycms.com/kansas-city-university/Attachments/residency/Match_Data_2019.pdf

DMU: https://www.dmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/DO-Class-of-2019-Residencies-By-Specialty.pdf

 

[deleted859689]

What about chances of landing anesthesia as DO? I wouldn’t put it in the category of ortho and derm so is there a probably chance of getting a spot in gas as a DO?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Look at the data. 2018 - 29/296 osteopathic students did NOT match to gas. Which means about 90% did match to gas.

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-Osteo.pdf

 

[Angus Avagadro]

What about chances of landing anesthesia as DO? I wouldn’t put it in the category of ortho and derm so is there a probably chance of getting a spot in gas as a DO?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

I have several students in university anesthesiology programs and 1 in an excellent university affiliate which does transplants, liver, kidney heart, and is a Level 1 trauma center. I have one in the number 1 anesthesiology program in the country. The chances for anesthesiology are good if you have reasonable stats. Usually Step 1 in the 225 to 230 range and reasonable class rank.

 

[PhillyMed777]

gas radiology and EM are all on the table for DO.

 

[Tennisgirl92]

I applied to MD only with average stats. I knew I wanted to go into a competitive specialty, and at the end of it would have wished I had the MD after 4 years of DO school. It is my first time applying, but I am a bit older with a bunch of work experience. It has taken me this long to get here- one year of reapplying is better than something that determines the rest of my life. The year loss of income if I don’t get in? You mean the extra year to continue working and save money for med school?

I am not a med school advisor, and I in no way dismissing their advice. But in my opinion, if you want MD, make it happen. Take an extra year to build your application and apply when ready. I hear all the time on here to be thoughtful in your application and not rush it. Don’t rush into DO school just for the sake of 1 year-IF that’s what you want. I have immense respect for DOs, and it’s a great option. Unfortunately, it might put you at a disadvantage down the road. You have to decide what is most important to you.

 

[Goro]

I applied to MD only with average stats. I knew I wanted to go into a competitive specialty, and at the end of it would have wished I had the MD after 4 years of DO school. It is my first time applying, but I am a bit older with a bunch of work experience. It has taken me this long to get here- one year of reapplying is better than something that determines the rest of my life. The year loss of income if I don’t get in? You mean the extra year to continue working and save money for med school?

No, it's the extra year of clinician salary. The thing you make by starting your career as an attending one year earlier by going to a DO school now, as opposed to waiting a year and then getting into an MD program.

 

[MoUdoMoUget]

I have several students in university anesthesiology programs and 1 in an excellent university affiliate which does transplants, liver, kidney heart, and is a Level 1 trauma center. I have one in the number 1 anesthesiology program in the country. The chances for anesthesiology are good if you have reasonable stats. Usually Step 1 in the 225 to 230 range and reasonable class rank.

People in this thread were saying that when seeking out more competitive specialties it helps to have gone to a school that has more research opportunities, or opportunities to be exposed to more cases, reputable letters of rec etc.

Regarding anesthesiology and newer less established DO schools (schools with no match data yet), I wonder if having decent stats as you mentioned (Step 1 in 225-230, reasonable class rank) is enough. Do you think that the lack of research opportunities or strong affiliations is a significant detriment?

Basically asking if you have seen anything in the process that would be a big advantage coming from an established DO school versus newer schools.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

My students at and one being considered at top tier university anesthesiology programs both had research. The others at university programs and regional affiliates did not. Stats in the range I mention should get you a look. Doing auditions at your targeted programs are very important IMO. Make sure you shine while there. I see an advantage coming from a well established school, but it is not great. It might be helpful if the program had taken other grads from your school.

 

[hydrophobicmed]

No, it's the extra year of clinician salary. The thing you make by starting your career as an attending one year earlier by going to a DO school now, as opposed to waiting a year and then getting into an MD program.

but also you have to consider the salary difference between FM and some competitive Specialty. That could be more than 2 million in one's life time.

 

[deleted947265]

How great is the MD bias in matching into competitive fields like cards, derm, ortho, etc? If we have genuine interests in those fields (aside from monetary considerations), would it be advisable to forgo applying to DO schools during the first admissions cycle? Assume the applicant has MD quality stats and doesn't mind reapplying a second cycle (adding DO applications at that time) if necessary.

Short Answer: I mean if your stats are good enough that you'll probably get accepted, just apply MD. But if it's between going DO or waiting another year to reapply plus DO, I'd go DO.

Long Answer: It's hard to say and could vary based on specialty.

I can't really support the claim that there is a strong DO bias in any specific specialty with data. Could there be in specific programs? Absolutely. I've looked the match data at least a little while for an article I've wanted to write. I can't take into account people in DO schools who might have wanted to match into competitive specialties but didn't bother applying to any programs however.

The match data is very misleading because it'll add in seniors who just ranked like one or two programs and make it seem like they didn't match. If you rank one or two family medicine programs, your odds are not bad. If you rank one or two orthopedic surgery programs, your odds are basically zero. I'll use orthopedic surgery as an example, because it has the best data. You really have to want to match into orthopedic surgery. If you don't go to sleep and dream of Ancef, bones and cash; that's not good enough. You gotta be all-in baby.

You have to start with the assumption that the applicant is reasonably competitive for that specialty on paper, they aren't a serial killer, and they employ an optimal application strategy. The NRMP is a functional matching system with sensible limitations on how many applications you can send to programs. Therefore the optimal strategy to match into orthopedic surgery is to apply to every orthopedic surgery program in the country and rank them all contiguously. The strongest predictor of an applicant's ability to match into a specific specialty is the number of contiguous programs ranked to the point where pretty much no other criteria even matters.

When you look at the DO student data, only 17 students applied and only 4 matched. Sounds bad right? Not quite. The average number of ortho programs contiguously ranked for unmatched seniors was 1.2, and for matched seniors was 4.3. Both of these are less than than the MD seniors average number of contiguously ranked ortho programs for both matched and unmatched seniors. Matched MD seniors ranked 12 programs contiguously on average, and unmatched seniors ranked 6 programs on average.

All 4 of the matched DO seniors only applied to orthopedic surgery only applied to ortho programs. One ballsy person only ranked 2 programs but the rest all ranked at least 4. Any osteopathic senior who ranked more than 2 programs had a 100% match rate... yup. All 13 of the students who didn't match, all ranked 2 programs contiguously or less. I have to wonder if there's something wrong with the data because that also means that a significant portion of the seniors that didn't match only ranked orthopedic surgery programs, and only ranked one program and none of them matched.

So really when you look at the people who applied smart, you have 3 seniors basically with a 100% match rate. When I looked at a few other specialties it's kind of the same story, there's so few applicants and so many of them don't apply smart that you can't really draw any kind of inference. I think the "DO Bias" is based on more urban legend than actual data and reason.

 

[Isoval]

Read this:
www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

And it depends on whether or not you should apply to DO schools on cycle 1. Some people have stats that mandate they apply to both, otherwise they will lose a year of clinician income.

And honestly, I feel that if you have median MD stats (3.71 GPA/511 MCAT), it's worth having a few DO schools on the list, especially if one is from CA. It's insurance.

It doesn’t cost a ton to apply to some DO schools, then if you aren’t good enough for MD you don’t burn a year salary just to admit your competitiveness.

I don’t get the hubris of assuming you’ll be top 20% of med students to get into something competitive if you aren’t even IN med school yet

These two wonderful people sum up my thoughts perfectly.

 

[deleted962973]

Short Answer: I mean if your stats are good enough that you'll probably get accepted, just apply MD. But if it's between going DO or waiting another year to reapply plus DO, I'd go DO.

Long Answer: It's hard to say and could vary based on specialty.

I can't really support the claim that there is a strong DO bias in any specific specialty with data. Could there be in specific programs? Absolutely. I've looked the match data at least a little while for an article I've wanted to write. I can't take into account people in DO schools who might have wanted to match into competitive specialties but didn't bother applying to any programs however.

The match data is very misleading because it'll add in seniors who just ranked like one or two programs and make it seem like they didn't match. If you rank one or two family medicine programs, your odds are not bad. If you rank one or two orthopedic surgery programs, your odds are basically zero. I'll use orthopedic surgery as an example, because it has the best data. You really have to want to match into orthopedic surgery. If you don't go to sleep and dream of Ancef, bones and cash; that's not good enough. You gotta be all-in baby.

You have to start with the assumption that the applicant is reasonably competitive for that specialty on paper, they aren't a serial killer, and they employ an optimal application strategy. The NRMP is a functional matching system with sensible limitations on how many applications you can send to programs. Therefore the optimal strategy to match into orthopedic surgery is to apply to every orthopedic surgery program in the country and rank them all contiguously. The strongest predictor of an applicant's ability to match into a specific specialty is the number of contiguous programs ranked to the point where pretty much no other criteria even matters.

When you look at the DO student data, only 17 students applied and only 4 matched. Sounds bad right? Not quite. The average number of ortho programs contiguously ranked for unmatched seniors was 1.2, and for matched seniors was 4.3. Both of these are less than than the MD seniors average number of contiguously ranked ortho programs for both matched and unmatched seniors. Matched MD seniors ranked 12 programs contiguously on average, and unmatched seniors ranked 6 programs on average.

All 4 of the matched DO seniors only applied to orthopedic surgery only applied to ortho programs. One ballsy person only ranked 2 programs but the rest all ranked at least 4. Any osteopathic senior who ranked more than 2 programs had a 100% match rate... yup. All 13 of the students who didn't match, all ranked 2 programs contiguously or less. I have to wonder if there's something wrong with the data because that also means that a significant portion of the seniors that didn't match only ranked orthopedic surgery programs, and only ranked one program and none of them matched.

So really when you look at the people who applied smart, you have 3 seniors basically with a 100% match rate. When I looked at a few other specialties it's kind of the same story, there's so few applicants and so many of them don't apply smart that you can't really draw any kind of inference. I think the "DO Bias" is based on more urban legend than actual data and reason.

Not too familiar with creating rank lists because MS1, but can’t you only rank programs you interview at? Maybe the explanation is that the DO candidates with less than 2 ranks didn’t get any interviews? Seems plausible since many programs won’t interview DOs at all.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

You can only apply into residency if you finish med school...so focus on that.. A lot of MD's do primary care and i know a lot of DO's that do competitive specialties.... whats funny is that all pre med's think they are gonna be in the top of the class and are going into neurosurgery.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What about chances of landing anesthesia as DO? I wouldn’t put it in the category of ortho and derm so is there a probably chance of getting a spot in gas as a DO?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Gas is not really competitive.

When you look at the DO student data, only 17 students applied and only 4 matched. Sounds bad right? Not quite. The average number of ortho programs contiguously ranked for unmatched seniors was 1.2, and for matched seniors was 4.3. Both of these are less than than the MD seniors average number of contiguously ranked ortho programs for both matched and unmatched seniors. Matched MD seniors ranked 12 programs contiguously on average, and unmatched seniors ranked 6 programs on average.

All 4 of the matched DO seniors only applied to orthopedic surgery only applied to ortho programs. One ballsy person only ranked 2 programs but the rest all ranked at least 4. Any osteopathic senior who ranked more than 2 programs had a 100% match rate... yup. All 13 of the students who didn't match, all ranked 2 programs contiguously or less. I have to wonder if there's something wrong with the data because that also means that a significant portion of the seniors that didn't match only ranked orthopedic surgery programs, and only ranked one program and none of them matched.

So really when you look at the people who applied smart, you have 3 seniors basically with a 100% match rate. When I looked at a few other specialties it's kind of the same story, there's so few applicants and so many of them don't apply smart that you can't really draw any kind of inference. I think the "DO Bias" is based on more urban legend than actual data and reason.

The true DO rate to MD ortho was most likely 4/7. There was a DO program that also took 3/6 spots in the MD match that year, and it's a program that interviews purely based off of meeting a board score cutoff. So the 10 people with 1 rank in the NRMP match that didn't match were people who didn't match in the DO match but had interviewed at that program and were able to still submit a rank list for the NRMP match of 1.

There is 100% a DO bias and no it's not urban legend.

 

[deleted947265]

Not too familiar with creating rank lists because MS1, but can’t you only rank programs you interview at? Maybe the explanation is that the DO candidates with less than 2 ranks didn’t get any interviews? Seems plausible since many programs won’t interview DOs at all.

No, it'll let you rank programs you didn't interview at. I don't know why it will let you do that. It's not a good idea. I really doubt there are programs ranking candidates they didn't interview. But I find it hard to believe that there's a hidden pool of 300 some odd DO students who all have competitive applications who applied to 50-ish programs and didn't get interviewed at one location and didn't rank at least one of them. I don't have any data to back that up which do you think is more likely?

That data doesn't take into account the AOA match and there's 100 slots there exclusively for DO students but that's going away this year I guess so... yeah we'll see what happens.

On a somewhat related note... is ortho really that interesting? I just don't get the appeal.

 

[Goro]

No, it'll let you rank programs you didn't interview at. I don't know why it will let you do that. It's not a good idea. I really doubt there are programs ranking candidates they didn't interview. But I find it hard to believe that there's a hidden pool of 300 some odd DO students who all have competitive applications who applied to 50-ish programs and didn't get interviewed at one location and didn't rank at least one of them. I don't have any data to back that up which do you think is more likely?

That data doesn't take into account the AOA match and there's 100 slots there exclusively for DO students but that's going away this year I guess so... yeah we'll see what happens.

On a somewhat related note... is ortho really that interesting? I just don't get the appeal.

Power tools!!!

 

[Cornfed101]

On a somewhat related note... is ortho really that interesting? I just don't get the appeal.

My dad was planning on specializing in ortho until he saw the power tools in the OR. Now he's an ophthalmologist lol

 

[Med Ed]

No, it'll let you rank programs you didn't interview at. I don't know why it will let you do that. It's not a good idea. I really doubt there are programs ranking candidates they didn't interview.

The interview system is covered by ERAS, the NRMP runs the match. For the match to know where everyone interviewed it would take a lot of very complicated data transfer with no margin for error. The default solution is to give applicants the freedom to rank any program, even ones they did not interview at. The outcome would simply be no match.

 

[Med Ed]

The match data is very misleading because it'll add in seniors who just ranked like one or two programs and make it seem like they didn't match.

I find the idea of ortho applicants just casually deciding not to rank programs rather hilarious.

 

[deleted947265]

I find the idea of ortho applicants just casually deciding not to rank programs rather hilarious.

As do I, apparently this was because of one program where they all ranked there. It doesn't take into account the AOA match so IDK lol.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There was also over a 100 slots for AOA/Ortho in 2019
2019 Summary by Program Type

Next Match should be the last with any AOA: all slots will be under NRMP (along with Military, SF Match, and the other minor systems)

Actually that was last year. This coming match is all going to be NRMP (minus SF and that stuff).

It doesn't take into account the AOA match so IDK lol.

The AOA match rate for ortho is about 50% with the average matched number of ranks ~3.7 and the average number of ranks for unmatched ~3.2 and I can guarantee you every ortho applicant ranks all the programs they interview at. In the DO ortho world most people only get interviews at the places they audition unless they are an elite applicant, i.e. 750+/260+ or tons of research, etc.

The elite DO ortho applicants can literally go toe to toe with the most competitive ortho applicants from anywhere, and they often only get a handful of MD interviews.

 

[CidHighwind]

but also you have to consider the salary difference between FM and some competitive Specialty. That could be more than 2 million in one's life time.

There are spine surgeons that make 2 million+ in ONE YEAR. No they aren’t doing anything illegal that’s just what they collect. Not saying go only for money, but the potential payoff is still greater for MD.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

There are spine surgeons that make 2 million+ in ONE YEAR. No they aren’t doing anything illegal that’s just what they collect. Not saying go only for money, but the potential payoff is still greater for MD.

That scenario will not survive. The Euros rarely operate on back pain unless cauda equina syndrome, or severe neurological deficit. They treat the vast majority of disc herniations with conservative treatment. Their incidence of failed back is identical to ours. After discussing this with neurosurgeons and orthopedists, they agree and indicated operating just gets you back to work sooner. Unless data exists that spine surgery saves money, I believe it will be harder to get certification to operate in coming years.

 

[Pepe18]

.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I've met more than 10 MD students on the trail who only decided on urology within the 4 months before match. They pulled their away rotations together and matched at strong (and even top) programs. The DO applicants had to plan over a year in advance in order to be successful. It's a completely different ballgame

This. Matching competitive specialties as a DO starts day 1 of med school. These people spend years building their app

 

[PhillyMed777]

This. Matching competitive specialties as a DO starts day 1 of med school. These people spend years building their app

Sometimes matching competitive specialties starts day one of MD school as well for whatever that’s worth

 

[<(^_^)>]

Vast majority of MD students aren’t competitive for ent/ortho either. if you are struggling to get into an MD school at all why would you assume you’ll ace your boards/clinical rotations?

Furthermore there’s a good chance once you actually start doing medicine you won’t like many of those fields vs now when you’re salivating over top 10% MGMA spine surgery compensation.

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

I just didn't care and was willing to be an MD or DO. With that said I got into both MD and DO and chose MD for obvious reasons. The saying always goes in medical school...dont get too fixated on a specialty until your 1st board score comes back...

 

[deomnibusdubitandum]

How do lower ranked MD programs compare? Would going to the worst MD school still be better than going to the top ranked DO program regarding competitive residencies?

 

[Pepe18]

.

 

[ciestar]

Yes, going to any US MD would be better than a DO program. No PD knows or will take the time/care to research which DO program people consider to be the best,

Many people from lower ranked schools matched top programs in the uro match this year. Even the people from schools with no home program matched highly regarded programs. You are only limited by how much work you are willing to put in if you go to a low ranked school.

Going to a DO program isn’t a bad option. You should just exhaust your US MD options first

My school no longer has a home program and from what ive gathered, did pretty well in the uro and ophtho matches

 

[Goro]

Yes, going to any US MD would be better than a DO program. No PD knows or will take the time/care to research which DO program people consider to be the best,

Many people from lower ranked schools matched top programs in the uro match this year. Even the people from schools with no home program matched highly regarded programs. You are only limited by how much work you are willing to put in if you go to a low ranked school.

Going to a DO program isn’t a bad option. You should just exhaust your US MD options first

Tell that to the CNU grads last year. Their match list was typical of a mediocre DO school. CUSOM's for one, was better.

PDs also know their feeder programs.

 

[Cornfed101]

Tell that to the CNU grads last year. Their match list was typical of a mediocre DO school.

CNU is a strange bird though... they are like a mainland Caribbean school