MD, DO designation...makes sense to me?

[Dr JPH]

I think changing the letters would help in the international recognition process...would that not advance osteopathic medicine?..

No. The degree matters not. Its the licensing regarding graduates from an osteopathic school.

A good ole california scenario wont advance osteopathic medicine.

However, ending these types of ridiculous discussions might.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

I think changing the letters would help in the international recognition process...would that not advance osteopathic medicine?...it probably doesnt matter to you but to others who want to or end up having to go out of the country it becomes a big deal. Thank you for at least giving an opinion and not saying, "well your just insecure, go to an allopathic school", which by the way I could have but turned it down.

No, you are wrong. There are already international practice rights in a lot of countries and recent progress has added a few others. Simply changing the letters does nothing for the international recognition process. A country does not see "DO" and says "they can't practice here"...they look at the training (some of this has to do with osteopathy in their own country) and make a decision. Just because you change the letters doesn't mean you change osteopathic medicine in their minds. "Oh, well the DO's now call themselves DM's, lets let them play doctor in Tanzania." Absurd. Look at it like this, if Bob Smith is a registered sex offender in Texas and decides to change his name to Mike Anderson, he is still going to be unable to land a teaching job. Your argument is ridiculous and to assert that a name change is going to further open up international practice rights is insane. Again, I beg that someone closes this thread.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

Changing the letters would simply imply the end of a branch of medicine and consolidate the 2 "branches" into 1. The question would be which one, and the obvious choice with be allopathic medicine. However, if there was ever a consensus, it could just be "medicine" and remove allo/osteo. Thus, the title could be "DM" (Doctor of Medicine). I doubt this would ever happen, making this thread pointless.

Again, some people who go to osteopathic schools want to be DO's whether they chose it over allo or not. I would imagine that after the CA backlash, many would want to remain DO's. So again, since people actually want to be DO's, leave it alone and go to an allopathic school if you do not want to be another "branch." You are right to say this merger probably will never happen

 

[Taus]

If the AOA could actually pull off a decent advertising campaign and more people outside the medical profession knew exactly what a DO was....I don't think this discussion would ever come up.....apparently they are in the process of raising a large sum of money in something called the "Greatness Fund" and a legit ad campaign will be part of it.....I for one will have to see it to believe it.....but if done right it could make a difference

If any of you want to be more then just an arm-chair-quarterback here....do something like getting involved w/ your schools SOMA chapter and take part in the discussions on the AOA Presidents Blog http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php

 

[gotmeds?]

If the AOA could actually pull off a decent advertising campaign...

I think that would be a disaster. I can just picture it now...


Bob: Hi honey, I just got back from seeing my osteopathic doctor.

Bob's wife: You mean that new D.O. guy. I don't know if I can trust someone without the letters M.D. after his name. Aren't they just glorified chiropractors?

Bob: No, honey. D.O.'s are just as good as M.D.'s, but they take a more holistic approach to medicine and treat the patient rather than just the disease.

Bob's wife: Well that sounds good and all, but what about all this Osteopathic Manipulation I've been hearing about? It sounds a little manipulative to me.

Bob: If you're referring to Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment, or OMT, it's just an additional diagnostic and thrapeutic technique available to D.O.'s that is not taught to their M.D. counterparts. In fact, my D.O. just used OMT to diagnose....and treat....my erectile dysfunction.

Bob's wife: Wow, Bob. Now you've got me convinced. I think I'll give that D.O. a chance.

Bob: I think that's a great idea.

Bob and wife together: D.O.'s. They're doctors, too.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

Again, some people who go to osteopathic schools want to be DO's whether they chose it over allo or not. I would imagine that after the CA backlash, many would want to remain DO's. So again, since people actually want to be DO's, leave it alone and go to an allopathic school if you do not want to be another "branch." You are right to say this merger probably will never happen

My post had no implications of superiority over MD and DO. My post implied that a change in initials to MD would effectively lead to the end of an osteopathic branch in medicine. Thus, it leads to this. Rather than allo and osteo med, why not have a simple "medical" and; thus, DM or MD (since MD does not imply allo) and leave it at that. Have osteopathy a residency or fellowship program. This is only in response to those paranoid over their initials because of their fear of not being able to practice overseas. Pansit, if you are so passionate about practicing abroad, then why reject the so-called chance to go into an MD school? ... this thread is pointless.

 

[DNA Helicase]

hilarious. you must be a part of the "greatness fund."

I think that would be a disaster. I can just picture it now...


Bob: Hi honey, I just got back from seeing my osteopathic doctor.

Bob's wife: You mean that new D.O. guy. I don't know if I can trust someone without the letters M.D. after his name. Aren't they just glorified chiropractors?

Bob: No, honey. D.O.'s are just as good as M.D.'s, but they take a more holistic approach to medicine and treat the patient rather than just the disease.

Bob's wife: Well that sounds good and all, but what about all this Osteopathic Manipulation I've been hearing about? It sounds a little manipulative to me.

Bob: If you're referring to Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment, or OMT, it's just an additional diagnostic and thrapeutic technique available to D.O.'s that is not taught to their M.D. counterparts. In fact, my D.O. just used OMT to diagnose....and treat....my erectile dysfunction.

Bob's wife: Wow, Bob. Now you've got me convinced. I think I'll give that D.O. a chance.

Bob: I think that's a great idea.

Bob and wife together: D.O.'s. They're doctors, too.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

I think that would be a disaster. I can just picture it now...


Bob: Hi honey, I just got back from seeing my osteopathic doctor.

Bob's wife: You mean that new D.O. guy. I don't know if I can trust someone without the letters M.D. after his name. Aren't they just glorified chiropractors?

Bob: No, honey. D.O.'s are just as good as M.D.'s, but they take a more holistic approach to medicine and treat the patient rather than just the disease.

Bob's wife: Well that sounds good and all, but what about all this Osteopathic Manipulation I've been hearing about? It sounds a little manipulative to me.

Bob: If you're referring to Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment, or OMT, it's just an additional diagnostic and thrapeutic technique available to D.O.'s that is not taught to their M.D. counterparts. In fact, my D.O. just used OMT to diagnose....and treat....my erectile dysfunction.

Bob's wife: Wow, Bob. Now you've got me convinced. I think I'll give that D.O. a chance.

Bob: I think that's a great idea.

Bob and wife together: D.O.'s. They're doctors, too.

nice touch.

 

[JasonUD]

If the AOA could actually pull off a decent advertising campaign and more people outside the medical profession knew exactly what a DO was....I don't think this discussion would ever come up.....apparently they are in the process of raising a large sum of money in something called the "Greatness Fund" and a legit ad campaign will be part of it.....I for one will have to see it to believe it.....but if done right it could make a difference

Agreed 100%

We need DO's on Grey's Anatomy, House, ER and Scrubs!

 

[Dr JPH]

If the AOA could actually pull off a decent advertising campaign and more people outside the medical profession knew exactly what a DO was....I don't think this discussion would ever come up.....apparently they are in the process of raising a large sum of money in something called the "Greatness Fund" and a legit ad campaign will be part of it.....I for one will have to see it to believe it.....but if done right it could make a difference

Similar thing seemed to work with Physician Assistants. PA week, PA day, PAs on 'ER'...you name it.

My question is still "what are you trying to accomplish by becoming more 'recognized' as a profession?"

Are DO specialists not getting consults from MD primary care docs?
Are DOs walking through the hospitals completely unoticed with no patients?
Are DOs hurting for business?

Not to my knowledge.

I dont know of any physicians who are struggling to find patients (except for interventional radiologists who are trying to steal procedures, but thats another story).

What is the osteopathic community lacking? Why are we trying to raise money to "let people know who we are"?

Seems like a wasted and misguided effort to me. IMO its another way of drawing attention away from the real problem in osteopathic medicine...lack of strong research, lack of large osteopathic medical institutions and lack of consistency in osteopathic medical education (both undergraduate and graduate).

You want people to know what a DO is?

Open a big ass osteopathic hospital and treat peoples medical problems. Heal them, cure them, treat them and introduce them to osteopathy by being a damn good physician.

You dont need a TV commercial or a cameo on 'ER'. You dont need Dr. House to tell you that OMT saves lives or for Grey's Anatomy to hire a new DO surgical resident (although I am open for the position).

You need to be a good doctor. Thats it.

 

[MDizzy]

I hate when pre-meds say MD means "Medical Doctor."

 

[Taus]

Similar thing seemed to work with Physician Assistants. PA week, PA day, PAs on 'ER'...you name it.

My question is still "what are you trying to accomplish by becoming more 'recognized' as a profession?"

Are DO specialists not getting consults from MD primary care docs?
Are DOs walking through the hospitals completely unoticed with no patients?
Are DOs hurting for business?

Not to my knowledge.

I dont know of any physicians who are struggling to find patients (except for interventional radiologists who are trying to steal procedures, but thats another story).

What is the osteopathic community lacking? Why are we trying to raise money to "let people know who we are"?

Seems like a wasted and misguided effort to me. IMO its another way of drawing attention away from the real problem in osteopathic medicine...lack of strong research, lack of large osteopathic medical institutions and lack of consistency in osteopathic medical education (both undergraduate and graduate).

You want people to know what a DO is?

Open a big ass osteopathic hospital and treat peoples medical problems. Heal them, cure them, treat them and introduce them to osteopathy by being a damn good physician.

You dont need a TV commercial or a cameo on 'ER'. You dont need Dr. House to tell you that OMT saves lives or for Grey's Anatomy to hire a new DO surgical resident (although I am open for the position).

You need to be a good doctor. Thats it.

couldn't agree more....well said....it would do nothing but alleviate superficial problems

 

[Taus]

I hate when pre-meds say MD means "Medical Doctor."

why would that bother you...

 

[Dr.Inviz]

I hate when pre-meds say MD means "Medical Doctor."

Random??

 

[Northerner]

I hate when pre-meds say MD means "Medical Doctor."

.....what do you think it means?

 

[Idiopathic]

I think we're all aware that you can sue for anything if you fill out the paperwork. The fact is, you can sue a DO posing as an MD (even if it's just on his coat) and WIN...easily, because it IS illegal to fabricate credentials. Someone's white coat may not be their official credentials, but it certainly represents them. Go ahead and walk down mainstreet in a police uniform and see how far you get before you're arrested for impersonating a police officer, regardless of whether you actually SAY you're a police officer. Your garment counts just as much as anything else.

This is no different than me writing Harvard Medical School on my White Coat. Even though in the state's eyes, an MD is an MD, some patients would rather go to an Ivy League doctor (call it Narcissism or whatever you will) so they would sue and win. It's pretty clear-cut.

But hey, when all you DOs get out of residency, put on a coat that says you're an MD and set up shop under the title of MD (because a business sign doesn't qualify as your credentials either, right?) and let me know how it goes.

Again, ability to sue does not equal illegal. Find me the law that says its illegal to do what you describe.

 

[Idiopathic]

That's a fairly pompous statement for your n=1 sample size, especially considering that you just stated you want to push for equality rather than asserting D.O. is better. That's also a pretty radical statement considering most M.D. programs are filled with students with a higher demonstrated scholastic aptitude (didn't say better doctors, but definitely higher scholastic apptitude, measured in GPA and MCAT).

And going on this line of reasoning, if a D.O. is so much better, I would echo the question of why they're constantly trying to get into M.D. hospitals and residencies, and why, as in this thread, there's an attempt to get the "lesser, easier, and less work-intensive" M.D. designation, left for people who believe they are finite beings with finite capabilities (I'll call God for you Idiopathic, and tell him you want your name back).

Ugh, the only thing worse than self-aggrandization is undue self-aggrandizing. At least be from Harvard (I forgot, is that M.D. or D.O.?) if you're going to make statements like that.

I believe I just said that I suspect I learned more things in medical school than most MD students. I took the same boards (plus my own), did well on them, AND learned about manipulation. What else could MD students have learned? Is there a finite amount of knowledge (i.e. I must have sacrificed knowledge in statistics or biocehm, right?)

I also dont equate volume of learning with "better" and I never said DO's were better. Employ your sarcastic commentary, if thats what you are reduced to, Im simply stating what I believe.

 

[Idiopathic]

Agreed 100%

We need DO's on Grey's Anatomy, House, ER and Scrubs!

Abby did a standing forward bending test on a guy last season, and one of the primary med consultants is a DO on ER

 

[Pansit]

My post had no implications of superiority over MD and DO. My post implied that a change in initials to MD would effectively lead to the end of an osteopathic branch in medicine. Thus, it leads to this. Rather than allo and osteo med, why not have a simple "medical" and; thus, DM or MD (since MD does not imply allo) and leave it at that. Have osteopathy a residency or fellowship program. This is only in response to those paranoid over their initials because of their fear of not being able to practice overseas. Pansit, if you are so passionate about practicing abroad, then why reject the so-called chance to go into an MD school? ... this thread is pointless.

I never said I wanted to go abroad, it's just something you don't know might end up happening in the future. I choose osteopathic because I didnt mind the philosophy or initials or anything like that, it came down to location, comfort, and cost of the school. I was was just throwing out the possibility of a change in the degree designation to see if it would improve the profession that I have choosen to become a part of, not that I wanted it to happen or that I would have some chip on my shoulder if it didnt. I strictly wanted opinions. Thank you for all of responses, and it has definitely opened my eyes a lot more. I do think that it is a bit trivial to be changing initials and such, A lot more focused should be placed on advancing the profession in itself and this not only includes objective goals like more research, more osteopathic hospitals..etc, but also we must get the public to recognize the profession. I know a lot of you say that it doesnt matter because patients don't care DO or MD, which is true, but that does nothing to the profession itself. That means your just content in being lumped in with the rest of allopathic world. Either merge the two or stay as two different entities. If you are going to be two different entities, than promoting your profession will lead to more interest and understanding, and who knows, more funding, better applicants...etc...thanks for all your responses and for those who decided to turn it into an MD vs. DO thing...

 

[Pansit]

Agreed 100%

We need DO's on Grey's Anatomy, House, ER and Scrubs!

How do you know that Grey's doesnt have DO's? I dont think they ever state that they are all MD's...lol...I can see the season finale now...Derrick Shepard reveals to Meredith the "MD" that he is in fact an AOA trained Neurosurgeon...oh no, well she marry him now...questions abound

 

[thesauce]

Okay, getting you set straight is obviously going to take some doing. Here goes:

I've never seen a DO try to call himself an MD, outside of this little fantasy world of pre-meds that we call SDN. With that said, do tell what "credentials" an MD has that a DO doesn't?.

How about, I don't know, THE "MD" PART! Credential = something that gives a title to credit. Come on, that was a softball challenge.

Your analogy of someone impersonating a police officer is ridiculous, since the average person has not been trained to enforce the law.

I knew I'd have to explain this to someone. THIS WASN'T AN ANALOGY BETWEEN MD AND DO. Go back and look at the reply. This was clarifying that a uniform, be it a white coat or police uniform, is a representation of credentials.

Your analogy of a patient saying "I want to see an ivy league trained doctor" is equally as ridiculous, since doctor's coats don't say where they went to school (unless you think your's will.

You seem to like the word "analogy." That wasn't an analogy, it was an example. An example that came straight out of First Aid for the USMLE Step 1 at the beginning of the Behavioral Science section. Most of those examples come from real cases, by the way. I've never heard of it in real life either, but certainly it isn't THAT far fetched. Some people go to the Mayo Clinic for operations they can get locally. Why? Because they believe the "better" doctors there will give them "better care."

And my White Coat certainly does have my school name on it. So do the white coats of the other 600+ medical students at my school.

, in which case I'd hope you'd have put your undergraduate school and GPA on it as well in case somebody only wants to see a doctor who had above a 3.9 in undergrad). .

You gotta draw the line somewhere. I guess the school didn't want to pay for the extra thread.

I've never heard a patient say they'd rather see an MD over a DO in the emergency room

The emergency room doesn't lend itself to small talk about credentials. That was a poor example.

In all seriousness, I'd like to see some written law somewhere that says there are penalties for a DO who advertises himself as an MD in a hospital as opposed to a pre-med student's opinion that it just is. Once again I'll state I've never seen it done and would never do it myself, but it seems like every pre-med student who only wants to go the allopathic route has mysteriously seen it done..

You're just now being serious?

I haven't been a pre-med for some time. I'm a medical student and absolutely have not seen it done, but that's probably because no DO is stupid enough to do it. Think about it this way: if it's shady, if you feel it's dishonest, you'll probably get sued for it. All a lawyer has to do is convince a jury to get a settlement and I think a jury will understand misrepresentation of credentials.

Oh, and one last thing, can you site a source (webpage, journal, or article) where DO opthomologists and orthopedists falsely stated that DO stood for doctor of optho or doctor of ortho? Or is this just another story that your uncle who's a neurosurgeon told you, or the many many doctors you've spoken to have told you?.

Happy to help: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=353863&highlight=doctor+orthopedics. Check out dawg44 and jkhamlin. No one in my family has graduated from high school. I certainly don't discuss the intricacies of the corruption of DOs in the field with the doctors that I know. But I do understand what you mean when you say that some people use their anecdotal evidence or fabricated anecdotal evidence.

As far as the change in the initials from DO to MD/DO and other ridiculous nonsense, I agree that the people who are gung ho for this idea are the insecure pre-osteo and osteo students who really wish they could've gone MD but couldn't. The answer to them is either go to the Carribean or give up the idea of being a doctor, but just stop whining about the letters after your name. There's no need to change things. On the rare (and I mean rare) occasion that somebody asks you what DO stands for, I know it's a pain in the a** to take 10 seconds and tell them how it was based on a different philosophy a long time ago, but I'm sure it'll be equally as painful to answer 100 questions from a worried mother whether her 2 year old son who has a common cold is going to be ok, so maybe you should just get out of medicine now and save yourself a lot of pain.

This, we agree on.

 

[Idiopathic]

I think you need to bear down and hit the books a little harder and not worry so much about all this DO/MD stuff. You obviously are caught up in a whirlwind of emotions and feelings and I really want you to do well on Step I. So, make sure you use all that fancy extra book-learnin' and make me proud!!!

 

[J1515]

How about, I don't know, THE "MD" PART! Credential = something that gives a title to credit. Come on, that was a softball challenge.

---------------------------------
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/credentials

Usually, credentials. evidence of authority, status, rights, entitlement to privileges, or the like, usually in written form: Only those with the proper credentials are admitted.

-----------------------------------------
MDs and DOs have the same evidence of authority, same status, rights, and same privilages to practice medicine. You can pick at and twist the meaning of words. Either way, I'd like to see some kind of written law that states a DO or MD can get in trouble for misrepresenting themselves as one or the other.

I knew I'd have to explain this to someone. THIS WASN'T AN ANALOGY BETWEEN MD AND DO. Go back and look at the reply. This was clarifying that a uniform, be it a white coat or police uniform, is a representation of credentials.

How many people wear white coats? Professors, podiatrists, PAs, MDs, DOs, NPs, chiropractors, scientists, the list goes on and on. I've seen (with my own two eyes) MDs that just say "Dr. xxxx xxxxxxx" , DOs that say "Dr. xxxx xxxx", chiropractors and professors that say "Dr. xxxx xxxxx". Obviously they're not all getting hit with lawsuits, so apparently it's not as big of a deal as you think it to be.

I've never heard of it in real life either, but certainly it isn't THAT far fetched. Some people go to the Mayo Clinic for operations they can get locally. Why? Because they believe the "better" doctors there will give them "better care."

Somebody going to the Mayo Clinic for an operation rather than a local community hospital is much different than a patient saying "I only want to see an Ivy graduate."

And my White Coat certainly does have my school name on it. So do the white coats of the other 600+ medical students at my school.

You're not doctors, you're students. See my next comment.

You gotta draw the line somewhere. I guess the school didn't want to pay for the extra thread.

Because once you graduate from a school it means nothing, whether it be high school, undergrad, grad, or residency. Nobody cares. While you're attending that school, obviously there will be some kind of identification to show you're associated with it.

The emergency room doesn't lend itself to small talk about credentials. That was a poor example.

Ok, let's talk about a DO cardiologist consult in the hospital. He says follow up with an office visit in a week. I'll state it again, I've never seen a patient say "well there's no way I'm going to follow up with a DO, give me a list of MDs." In general, good bedside manner and knowledgeable = good doctor, MD or DO.

I haven't been a pre-med for some time. I'm a medical student and absolutely have not seen it done, but that's probably because no DO is stupid enough to do it. Think about it this way: if it's shady, if you feel it's dishonest, you'll probably get sued for it. All a lawyer has to do is convince a jury to get a settlement and I think a jury will understand misrepresentation of credentials.

So if you've never seen it done, can't show me a medical malpractice or any kind of lawsuit where it has happened, this is all a moot point, no? You make it seem "all a lawyer has to do is convince a jury" is such an easy thing to do. What exactly would his argument be? I could see it now,

Lawyer: "Ladies and gentlement of the jury, DOs have lower admission stats than MDs"

Judge: "So they don't have to pass a standardized medical licensing board covering the same topics as MDs?"

Lawyer: "Well.....they do your honor, but it doesn't have biostatistics on it and therefore it's not the same!"

Judge: "Oh, but then I guess DOs don't have to do a residency?"

Lawyer: "Ummm, they do, but a lot of them try to match into allopathic residencies because they know MDs are better!"

Judge: So then DOs don't have the same privilages to practice medicine in all 50 states that MDs do?

Lawyer: "No.....I guess they do....but they have this stupid thing where they try to move skull bones and...."

Judge: dismissed.

[/QUOTE]

Happy to help: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=353863&highlight=doctor+orthopedics. Check out dawg44 and jkhamlin.

Yup. In those two cases it's ridiculous, and if they were serious, I'd add rather pathetic. Now in those two specific cases they'd have a hard time explaining if the pt's friend said "but I thought DO stood for doctor of osteopathic medicine." THAT might make you lose patients. Is it illegal? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. Would they get sued? Possibly, but if I were a patient in that situation I wouldn't waste the time or money and I'd just find another doctor. However, very few of the posters on SDN are practicing doctors (including the two mentioned above). Most are pre-meds, med students, and a few residents. That's why everything here should be taken with a grain of salt.

No one in my family has graduated from high school. I certainly don't discuss the intricacies of the corruption of DOs in the field with the doctors that I know. But I do understand what you mean when you say that some people use their anecdotal evidence or fabricated anecdotal evidence.

That's all you've got on SDN, anecdotal evidence.

 

[JasonUD]

Hey Nate, Can we charge money to view this thread?? I think we'd raise a lot of money for SDN because this is turning in Jerry Springer!

 

[cyclohexanol]

 

[Dr JPH]

Are some of you for real?

I cant believe some of the people on here. Embarassing.

 

[Haemulon]

I hate when pre-meds say MD means "Medical Doctor."

Would your prefer "Doctor of Medicine"??? "Medical Doctorate"???

It is what it is buddy. Not sure what your beef is.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Would your prefer "Doctor of Medicine"??? "Medical Doctorate"???

It is what it is buddy. Not sure what your beef is.

Maybe they were trying to say that not just MDs are medical doctors and that medical doctor can be MD or DO

OR

They really like people to refer to MDs as Medicinæ Doctor (with special emphasis of the diphthong æ)

 

[sunlioness]

I see...i guess it would be illegal for a chiropractor or like the mailman to put an MD on a white coat in a hospital...why would you not put DO on your coat if you received the DO degree?...do they get picked on and get beat up during recess by the big bad MD kids...lol

We steal their meal tickets.

An administrator at the local VA told me once that there was an MD resident who decided it would be fun to sign all his stuff "DO". Apparently he got in big trouble and they had to go through everything he had signed that way and change it. So I guess it matters some places.

Personally, I think we're all the same. How good of a doctor you are depends more on who you are as a person than the letters after your name. My residency program has both MDs and DOs and honestly, I forget who is which unless I sit down and think about it.

 

[Noeljan]

OMG these kittens are sooooo cute! I want one.

 

[Haemulon]

Maybe they were trying to say that not just MDs are medical doctors and that medical doctor can be MD or DO

OR

They really like people to refer to MDs as Medicinæ Doctor (with special emphasis of the diphthong æ)

Yeh, I understand your point. But an MD is what it is. I seriously doubt that many people would advocate changing the MD degree to something else (D.A. for Doctor of Allopatric Medicine?) just because it makes them feel like MD may imply to some people that its the only medical doctorate? I think it seems a little insecure to focus in on something like that. But I do like the dipthong idea. Very cool.