MD using holistic approach

[HalfListic]

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There are already lots of threads about the validity of OMT. This thread was about MDs using a holistic approach. Nobody even defined holistic, and nobody asked an MD about their training.

In my limited experience, very rarely could a person care less about your medical school, and it seems to me that 90% of what shapes a doctor is residency.

Would any attendings like to disagree? I will gladly yield to experience, but not if your experience is a free online 32 page PDF.

Wow. Pretty interesting opinion here.

if everyone thought like this, there would be no progress. We are not robots. I'm sorry you don't feel qualified to disagree with a superior, but I have found that those who use rank to win an argument usually have little else to contribute.

Everyone here can comment and I wish more would. I've heard as much BS from residents as from pre meds.

So, If you yield to experience...allow me to quote you some Dr Oz or Deepak.



Edit: just so it's clear I'm angry because your comments are oppressive, and attempt to discourage free thought
&fixing phone typing errors, less offensive

**I think I misunderstood what you were saying here...my fault.***

 

[HalfListic]

This thread is done

 

[SpecterGT260]

what was oppressive about his comment? I thought it was quite reasonable.

He only said that the premises for this thread were not explicitly defined. That was demonstrated when Johnny took "holistic" to mean "alternative". And it is true that residency conveys the majority of how you practice.

 

[QualityProcess]

Wow. Pretty interesting opinion here.

Of everyone thought like this, there would be no progress. We are not robots. I'm sorry you don't feel qualified to disagree with a superior, but I have found that those who use rank to win an argument usually have little else to contribute.

Everyone here can comment an I wish more would. I've heard as much BS from residents as from pre meds.

So, I'd you yield to experience...allow me to quote you some Dr Oz or Deepak.

Grow some balls

Edit: just so it's clear I'm angry because your comments are oppressive, and attempt to discourage free thought

If you want to have a thoughtful discussion on holistic care, I'm all ears. I read the PDF you posted this morning.

If you want to argue, tell me to grow some balls, and describe my comment that I'd like an MD's opinion of their training as oppressive, then yes, "This thread is done"

You're rude, emotional and very presumptuous.

 

[rzoo14]

So I just got home from work. 😕😕

I don't think Quality's post was oppressive. He mentioned that the thread went off on a tangent, which it did.

I don't understand why there needs to be hard feelings or being offended by each others comments. Its an online forum. Calm down kids. 🙂

 

[HalfListic]

I may have over reacted...so I apologize Qualityprocess. I didn't love your comment because I thought you were telling all the premeds (like the ones on the previous thread) that they shouldn't contribute to the conversation. While I'm trying very very hard to get more people involved in these discussions.

So yes, I was presumptuous in my response...my fault.

I just wish you didn't dismiss others opinions out there, implying that their knowledge only comes from an online PDF. This is a pre med forum after all...so why not listen to them?

Sorry if I offended

 

[pattr]

If you want to have a thoughtful discussion on holistic care, I'm all ears. I read the PDF you posted this morning.

If you want to argue, tell me to grow some balls, and describe my comment that I'd like an MD's opinion of their training as oppressive, then yes, "This thread is done"

You're rude, emotional and very presumptuous.

So my classmate and I wrote the brief guide. It took us several months during our second year to do all the research and compile everything. We wanted to make it brief (32 pages) and free (available to everyone). We did it on our own time on top of our courseload/board prep because we a saw a dire need for easily accessible, reliable info about DO for people outside the profession (premeds and allopathic students/MDs especially). We're now third year students.

Obviously, experience is invaluable and I agree that you cannot replace experience with reading our guide. There are a lot of factors in how a doctor practices. Residency is a big one, but I do think medical school and just that person's style as an individual make a difference as well.

As for differences between DO and MD training. I can say this. MD students don't get nearly as much emphasis on the physical, hands-on aspect on medicine in the first two years. Save for physical exam skills, they are not touching patients at all until third year.

 

[deleted103644]

So my classmate and I wrote the brief guide. It took us several months during our second year to do all the research and compile everything. We wanted to make it brief (32 pages) and free (available to everyone). We did it on our own time on top of our courseload/board prep because we a saw a dire need for easily accessible, reliable info about DO for people outside the profession (premeds and allopathic students/MDs especially). We're now third year students.

Obviously, experience is invaluable and I agree that you cannot replace experience with reading our guide. There are a lot of factors in how a doctor practices. Residency is a big one, but I do think medical school and just that person's style as an individual make a difference as well.

As for differences between DO and MD training. I can say this. MD students don't get nearly as much emphasis on the physical, hands-on aspect on medicine in the first two years. Save for physical exam skills, they are not touching patients at all until third year.

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[HalfListic]

So my classmate and I wrote the brief guide. It took us several months during our second year to do all the research and compile everything. We wanted to make it brief (32 pages) and free (available to everyone). We did it on our own time on top of our courseload/board prep because we a saw a dire need for easily accessible, reliable info about DO for people outside the profession (premeds and allopathic students/MDs especially). We're now third year students.

Obviously, experience is invaluable and I agree that you cannot replace experience with reading our guide. There are a lot of factors in how a doctor practices. Residency is a big one, but I do think medical school and just that person's style as an individual make a difference as well.

As for differences between DO and MD training. I can say this. MD students don't get nearly as much emphasis on the physical, hands-on aspect on medicine in the first two years. Save for physical exam skills, they are not touching patients at all until third year.

Great work!

I think it's one of the best ways for a premed (and even some med students) to begin educating themselves in osteopathic medicine.

You guys did a great job...

 

[pattr]

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

Okay, then how do MD students touch patients in the first two years of their training (besides standardized patients and physical exams)?

 

[MedicinaeDoctor]

didn't read the entire thread. don't taze me.

in response to OP:

no. there are none.

....jk. put down the textbooks for a sec and pick up a magazine, turn on the TV, heck, use google. Dr. Oz, Dr. Andrew Weil, the list goes on forever.

 

[deleted103644]

Okay, then how do MD students touch patients in the first two years of their training (besides standardized patients and physical exams)?

Many schools start students in the hospital from day one now, some even have their own patients to follow up with over the course of four years. Many schools are switching to 1.5/2.5 instead of 2/2 as well.

As for touching patients outside of the context of a physical exam or normal human interaction, that's not exactly part of mainstream medicine - I very rarely end an exam with a happy ending, but then again, I'm not a DO.

 

[rzoo14]

Many schools start students in the hospital from day one now, some even have their own patients to follow up with over the course of four years. Many schools are switching to 1.5/2.5 instead of 2/2 as well.

As for touching patients outside of the context of a physical exam or normal human interaction, that's not exactly part of mainstream medicine - I very rarely end an exam with a happy ending, but then again, I'm not a DO.

I generally try to stay away from these types of arguments but I have to say something here. Johnny, you're contradicting yourself. Pattr didn't say the DO approach was mainstream, he simply pointed out that that was a difference between DO and MD.

Don't argue for the sake of arguing. Bring some facts and then argue.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Okay, then how do MD students touch patients in the first two years of their training (besides standardized patients and physical exams)?

Depends on the school. Do all DO students? Stop generalizing. Some MD schools have surgical pig suites to practice techniques on. So MDs are better surgeons by your own logic?

Otherwise what are you doing that is so "hands on" and how does it add up to a difference between MD and DO physicians? Doings things differently doesn't mean being different. Basically all I've heard you say is "DOs do OMM" (which is what I assume your hands on experience in pre clinic entails)

 

[deleted103644]

I generally try to stay away from these types of arguments but I have to say something here. Johnny, you're contradicting yourself. Pattr didn't say the DO approach was mainstream, he simply pointed out that that was a difference between DO and MD.

Don't argue for the sake of arguing. Bring some facts and then argue.

I initially did not read his post carefully enough and thought he was saying that MD students do not see patients until 3rd year - not the case in most schools anymore.

I don't really know what he means by physical contact not including the physical exam. If he means outside of learning the physical exam, he's wrong - first years and second years regularly perform physicals in many schools now.

 

[pattr]

I initially did not read his post carefully enough and thought he was saying that MD students do not see patients until 3rd year - not the case in most schools anymore.

I don't really know what he means by physical contact not including the physical exam. If he means outside of learning the physical exam, he's wrong - first years and second years regularly perform physicals in many schools now.

Wasn't trying to start a debate here... was just pointing out that simply by the nature of their training, DO students spend more time touching "patients," which occurs every week for us when we are in lab learning OMM on each other for however many hours a week. Because of this, we get more experience feeling what bodies do and how they feel in vivo, what the ranges of motion are for gross movements as well as for individual bones or groups of bones (ribs, spine, hip), the challenges of working with patients of differing sizes, etc. Since we cycle through classmates each lab we can realistically spend time with almost every other classmate giving us experience touching and feeling a variety of bodies, oftentimes including those with dysfunction or previous/current injuries. And when we see patients outside of class in volunteer clinic for example or when we do get assigned to see patients (as johnnydrama pointed out) there is a treatment modality that we can actually use in the preclinical years - say, for example, if the pt presents with an MSK-related problem eg LBP, being able to do OMM as a first or second year in addition to practicing ordering the imaging studies, prescribing pain meds and stretches, referring to PT, etc.

In response to specter, it's obvious that I cannot know what medical students at every medical school do... And no I'm not saying that because DO training is this way, DOs are better doctors or better at physical exams etc. I just wanted to point out this difference in training since it seemed relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Wasn't trying to start a debate here... was just pointing out that simply by the nature of their training, DO students spend more time touching "patients," which occurs every week for us when we are in lab learning OMM on each other for however many hours a week. Because of this, we get more experience feeling what bodies do and how they feel in vivo, what the ranges of motion are for gross movements as well as for individual bones or groups of bones (ribs, spine, hip), the challenges of working with patients of differing sizes, etc. Since we cycle through classmates each lab we can realistically spend time with almost every other classmate giving us experience touching and feeling a variety of bodies, oftentimes including those with dysfunction or previous/current injuries. And when we see patients outside of class in volunteer clinic for example or when we do get assigned to see patients (as johnnydrama pointed out) there is a treatment modality that we can actually use in the preclinical years - say, for example, if the pt presents with an MSK-related problem eg LBP, being able to do OMM as a first or second year in addition to practicing ordering the imaging studies, prescribing pain meds and stretches, referring to PT, etc.

In response to specter, it's obvious that I cannot know what medical students at every medical school do... And no I'm not saying that because DO training is this way, DOs are better doctors or better at physical exams etc. I just wanted to point out this difference in training since it seemed relevant to the topic at hand.

How is learning OMM on other students fundamentally different (and constitutes more hands on pt contact) from PE skills that we do? Furthermore, time spent learning the one aspect of your training that is different does not constitute MDs "lacking the hands on focus" by comparison.

 

[deleted103644]

How is learning OMM on other students fundamentally different (and constitutes more hands on pt contact) from PE skills that we do? Furthermore, time spent learning the one aspect of your training that is different does not constitute MDs "lacking the hands on focus" by comparison.

I think he's saying that because it's a made up technique, they can start actually practicing it on real patients as soon as they get into the hospital.

I'm only half-joking.

 

[coolingglasses]

Many schools start students in the hospital from day one now, some even have their own patients to follow up with over the course of four years. Many schools are switching to 1.5/2.5 instead of 2/2 as well.

As for touching patients outside of the context of a physical exam or normal human interaction, that's not exactly part of mainstream medicine - I very rarely end an exam with a happy ending, but then again, I'm not a DO.

I lol'd

 

[pattr]

How is learning OMM on other students fundamentally different (and constitutes more hands on pt contact) from PE skills that we do? Furthermore, time spent learning the one aspect of your training that is different does not constitute MDs "lacking the hands on focus" by comparison.

It is different. There is some overlap in terms of OMM training and the physical exam, especially neuro and msk, but what you're looking for in OMM is different and many times finer (vs gross motion/asymmetry).

For example, MD students do not spend 2-4 hours a week palpating muscle tension, looking for structural asymmetry in spinal segments or sacral landmarks, springing different bones and joints, determining whether rib movement is optimal, etc.

I believe this constitutes a difference in the amount of hands-on training.

 

[SpecterGT260]

It is different. There is some overlap in terms of OMM training and the physical exam, especially neuro and msk, but what you're looking for in OMM is different and many times finer (vs gross motion/asymmetry).

For example, MD students do not spend 2-4 hours a week palpating muscle tension, looking for structural asymmetry in spinal segments or sacral landmarks, springing different bones and joints, determining whether rib movement is optimal, etc.

I believe this constitutes a difference in the amount of hands-on training.

Well..... duh. You basically said "MDs don't do OMM". No argument here. But this was not your original implication.

 

[pattr]

Well..... duh. You basically said "MDs don't do OMM". No argument here. But this was not your original implication.

I feel you are treating OMM training like it is something completely in and of itself whereas I view it as something that is related to and complements the other aspects of medical training.

My original implication still stands. The fact that MD students do not spend the additional time in lab learning aspects of palpation and physical diagnosis is a noteworthy difference in training. How often during the preclinical years of medical school are MD students touching people in an effort to treat them? For DO students it is every week.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I feel you are treating OMM training like it is something completely in and of itself whereas I view it as something that is related to and complements the other aspects of medical training.

My original implication still stands. The fact that MD students do not spend the additional time in lab learning aspects of palpation and physical diagnosis is a noteworthy difference in training. How often during the preclinical years of medical school are MD students touching people in an effort to treat them? For DO students it is every week.

Every week for PE skills starting 2nd semester 😉

 

[pattr]

Every week for PE skills starting 2nd semester 😉

That's my point. PE skills =/= OMM.

 

[SpecterGT260]

.

As for differences between DO and MD training. I can say this. MD students don't get nearly as much emphasis on the physical, hands-on aspect on medicine in the first two years. Save for physical exam skills, they are not touching patients at all until third year.

this was you original point. Practicing OMM is not "emphasis on hands on aspect on medicine" nor is it "Touching patients"... I was giving you crap earlier when I reduced your point to OMM only but then it turns out that is actually what you meant.... 😱

 

[pattr]

Practicing OMM is not "emphasis on hands on aspect on medicine" nor is it "Touching patients"

Seriously? What is your reasoning for this statement?

 

[pattr]

We are all patients in one way or another. I go to the doctor just like everyone else. I have structural issues in my body that I deal with just like everyone else... unless you are extremely physically fit, healthy, and well-managed by your providers, you probably have issues where parts of your body are functioning suboptimally that you compensate for, sometimes without even realizing it.

Most everyone has dysfunction so yes I believe practicing OMM does constitute touching people and "patients" for that matter.

 

[SpecterGT260]

We are all patients in one way or another..

I have to assume that you know full well that this was not your initial implication. This is absolutely ridiculous


Your post said "we have a more hands on emphasis with patients" and what you meant was "we do OMM lab".... seriously...

 

[pattr]

I have to assume that you know full well that this was not your initial implication. This is absolutely ridiculous


Your post said "we have a more hands on emphasis with patients" and what you meant was "we do OMM lab".... seriously...

Okay I'm sorry if I was unclear. Let it be known now that I was talking about 1. OMM training and 2. the ability to practice OMM on patients we see in standardized labs, exams, and out in the community.

My argument is still the same.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Okay I'm sorry if I was unclear. Let it be known now that I was talking about 1. OMM training and 2. the ability to practice OMM on patients we see in standardized labs, exams, and out in the community.

My argument is still the same.

Ok cool. And we practice hands on physical exam on "patients" too 😉

Furthermore, as a typical med student I study 6 days a week basically all day. I force myself to take Saturdays off to recharge. Many of my classmates study every day. You cannot create more hours in the week. If you take time to do these labs you are inevitably admitting that MDs get more "of an emphasis on the theoretical and literature aspects of medicine". I am not saying this is the case.... I'm saying these arguments are asinine

 

[pattr]

Furthermore, as a typical med student I study 6 days a week basically all day. I force myself to take Saturdays off to recharge. Many of my classmates study every day. You cannot create more hours in the week. If you take time to do these labs you are inevitably admitting that MDs get more "of an emphasis on the theoretical and literature aspects of medicine". I am not saying this is the case.... I'm saying these arguments are asinine

I don't think it's necessarily the case that DO education gets less of the "theoretical/literature aspects" though I understand what you mean. I'm sure at times some things are sacrificed in curriculum in order to reserve time for OMM. But isn't it equally possible that DO students simply are in class/lab more? Many days in the week at my school we were staying from 8-5 in class since there were OMM lectures and labs in addition to the other stuff. Until we find a study of all the hours of class-time and compare it between DO and MD we'll never know.

 

[Bacchus]

While it is acceptable to debate the MD vs DO "differences," it is not acceptable to bash either profession. Please see this sticky if you have any further questions: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133066

All in all, focus on the main topic of the thread.

 

[SpecterGT260]

While it is acceptable to debate the MD vs DO "differences," it is not acceptable to bash either profession. Please see this sticky if you have any further questions: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133066

All in all, focus on the main topic of the thread.

I thought we were doing well at keeping it unpersonal. If you think otherwise id appreciate a pm with the offending post.😳

I don't think it's necessarily the case that DO education gets less of the "theoretical/literature aspects" though I understand what you mean. I'm sure at times some things are sacrificed in curriculum in order to reserve time for OMM. But isn't it equally possible that DO students simply are in class/lab more? Many days in the week at my school we were staying from 8-5 in class since there were OMM lectures and labs in addition to the other stuff. Until we find a study of all the hours of class-time and compare it between DO and MD we'll never know.

No. It is not possible. This is why I said you can't put more hours in the week. You can't physically do more than "all day every day" and quite a few of my classmates do this. I'm not saying we get more of something or are better at something. I'm just trying to get you to understand that if you arbitrarily assign meaning to something as minimal as a lab then you have to also admit to a shortcoming by the logic above.

 

[pattr]

I thought we were doing well at keeping it unpersonal. If you think otherwise id appreciate a pm with the offending post.😳






No. It is not possible. This is why I said you can't put more hours in the week. You can't physically do more than "all day every day" and quite a few of my classmates do this. I'm not saying we get more of something or are better at something. I'm just trying to get you to understand that if you arbitrarily assign meaning to something as minimal as a lab then you have to also admit to a shortcoming by the logic above.

This is what I'm saying. Because DO students have to be in class let's say maybe 4-6 hours a week JUST for OMM, I think it's very possible that it's simply that much time more that they are in class with less time to study.

I've heard this argument a lot from people, that "it's not possible to put more hours in a day" and that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying DO students may or may not be in class for more hours grossly during the preclinical years due to their additional training in OMM. Does that mean they might get less time to study other things? Sure. But does it necessarily mean that other parts of their training IN CLASS get "replaced" by other things? Again, we don't know until we have the numbers.

 

[pattr]

And yeah I am saying that I think DO students get more hands-on training than do MD students. Whether you think this is correct or not is your opinion.

Also, another reason I bring this up is that there are aspects of OMM training that I do think should be taught in MD schools, especially physical diagnosis of tissue texture abnormality, asymmetry, range of motion, and tenderness (TART) change. This means not just the gross movements (abduction, flexion etc) like in the screening physical exam or the provocative maneuvers in MSK but also the training to diagnose individual ribs, spinal segments, pelvic bones, etc. Even if you don't believe that OMM can treat the structural problem, you have to acknowledge that what's there is there.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I think you are just stubbornly refusing to see that you are arbitrarily assigning value to one aspect (OMM training) and arbitrarily denying value to another (time lost for other things). This, in a logical sense, is like fingernails on a chalk board. You cannot have one without the other.

You are really talking about very subtle differences and, honestly, there are differences between schools. My school has a crazy little man who does biochem. I have heard from upper classmen that the USMLE biochem questions are a joke after taking his course. Not all schools have this guy , but I would suspect that some other schools have a crazy little man who does.... I dunno.... physio? Sure. Maybe they have the same experience with phys. Our genetics course (which in many schools is a part of biochem... I think that's weird though) really wasnt that great. I will likely have to review a little harder for that when it comes time to take boards. I just hope you can appreciate that these differences you are citing can very easily be washed away in the standard differences just between institutions regardless of MD or DO.

 

[HalfListic]

Okay, then how do MD students touch patients in the first two years of their training (besides standardized patients and physical exams)?

I think you are just stubbornly refusing to see that you are arbitrarily assigning value to one aspect (OMM training) and arbitrarily denying value to another (time lost for other things). This, in a logical sense, is like fingernails on a chalk board. You cannot have one without the other.

You are really talking about very subtle differences and, honestly, there are differences between schools. My school has a crazy little man who does biochem. I have heard from upper classmen that the USMLE biochem questions are a joke after taking his course. Not all schools have this guy , but I would suspect that some other schools have a crazy little man who does.... I dunno.... physio? Sure. Maybe they have the same experience with phys. Our genetics course (which in many schools is a part of biochem... I think that's weird though) really wasnt that great. I will likely have to review a little harder for that when it comes time to take boards. I just hope you can appreciate that these differences you are citing can very easily be washed away in the standard differences just between institutions regardless of MD or DO.

I don't think its an absolute that you can't add more to your day. I think it is a fair assumption to say that the extra 200(or whatever it is) hours of OMM is easily added to any schedule without loosing anything compared to an MD's regiment. So, its not really valid as an argument to say that OMM takes away from any basic medical training or education that a DO would get. Its still all there.

Next, I also think its a fair comparison to say that OMM is more extensively 'hands on' than a PE...since it includes both a PE plus treatment, by definition, it requires more hands on time. I don't think its offensive to say this? (You don't take offense to that, right?) So, unless I'm missing something in the MDs training, that would make DOs a bit more hands on, which was pattr's initial point.

sounds logical to me

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't think its an absolute that you can't add more to your day. I think it is a fair assumption to say that the extra 200(or whatever it is) hours of OMM is easily added to any schedule without loosing anything compared to an MD's regiment. So, its not really valid as an argument to say that OMM takes away from any basic medical training or education that a DO would get. Its still all there.

Next, I also think its a fair comparison to say that OMM is more extensively 'hands on' than a PE...since it includes both a PE plus treatment, by definition, it requires more hands on time. I don't think its offensive to say this? (You don't take offense to that, right?) So, unless I'm missing something in the MDs training, that would make DOs a bit more hands on, which was pattr's initial point.

sounds logical to me

you havent been here yet.... you cannot run on the assumption that MD students simply stop when they think the studying is sufficient and there is time left over for the DOs to make up for it. It is really beside the point. Medschool is very much what you make of it, but it is very clear that this argument is biased very strongly and doesnt take into account the real implications of such a claim. I will say again: you cannot have it both ways. For every hour you are in OMM lab your MD counterpart is studying the regular coursework.

IF you want to claim that this OMM lab time is significant enough to state "DOs get a better hands-on exposure to patients in the first two years" you MUST also admit that it comes at an academic disadvantage. I am not saying either is true, but you cannot arbitrarily say its valid when it applies to OMM but not when it applies to other forms of study. This is just nonsense. My own personal opinion is that OMM lab does not equal patient contact because patient contact has much more to do with interacting with someone you dont have a beer with later in the week, and it is not a fair or valid argument to attempt to extract extra meaning out of a practice that our school of thought does not adhere to in the first place. This conversation could dive back into a debate about the validity of OMM techniques, but I think it is safe to say that only about half of OMT is reasonably safe from scrutiny so on that basis do you find this OMM lab argument to be very strong? Personally, if I were a DO student I would have PMed him and asked him to drop that point as it weakens the overall argument

 

[munchymanRX]

I don't think its an absolute that you can't add more to your day. I think it is a fair assumption to say that the extra 200(or whatever it is) hours of OMM is easily added to any schedule without loosing anything compared to an MD's regiment. So, its not really valid as an argument to say that OMM takes away from any basic medical training or education that a DO would get. Its still all there.

Next, I also think its a fair comparison to say that OMM is more extensively 'hands on' than a PE...since it includes both a PE plus treatment, by definition, it requires more hands on time. I don't think its offensive to say this? (You don't take offense to that, right?) So, unless I'm missing something in the MDs training, that would make DOs a bit more hands on, which was pattr's initial point.

sounds logical to me

OMM does not always include a PE. You learn that it includes diagnosis of the specific somatic dysfunction via specific techniques that you learn in OMM class. However, more often than not our professors will simply treat based on a patients' verbal recount of their symptoms. I have seen this practice in clinical situations as well.

Also, it rather depends on what the patient's problem is when determining whether extra "hands on time" is beneficial at all. For example, the last thing someone with osteomyelitis of the lower leg would want is for me to touch it.

 

[HalfListic]

OMM does not always include a PE. You learn that it includes diagnosis of the specific somatic dysfunction via specific techniques that you learn in OMM class. However, more often than not our professors will simply treat based on a patients' verbal recount of their symptoms. I have seen this practice in clinical situations as well.

Also, it rather depends on what the patient's problem is when determining whether extra "hands on time" is beneficial at all. For example, the last thing someone with osteomyelitis of the lower leg would want is for me to touch it.

Of course

I think the point is, when a PE is needed, both MD and DO will perform one. If OMM is a possibility, only a DO will perform that. We can go
Through each school and each physician and gather their personal stats...but it's not really about what's done at one school or one dr. It's just a simple point...because of OMM DOs have more hands on time with patients. This has been my observational experience and I can't see why anyone would really want to dispute it.

It's not saying one is better

 

[HalfListic]

you havent been here yet.... you cannot run on the assumption that MD students simply stop when they think the studying is sufficient and there is time left over for the DOs to make up for it. It is really beside the point. Medschool is very much what you make of it, but it is very clear that this argument is biased very strongly and doesnt take into account the real implications of such a claim. I will say again: you cannot have it both ways. For every hour you are in OMM lab your MD counterpart is studying the regular coursework.

IF you want to claim that this OMM lab time is significant enough to state "DOs get a better hands-on exposure to patients in the first two years" you MUST also admit that it comes at an academic disadvantage. I am not saying either is true, but you cannot arbitrarily say its valid when it applies to OMM but not when it applies to other forms of study. This is just nonsense. My own personal opinion is that OMM lab does not equal patient contact because patient contact has much more to do with interacting with someone you dont have a beer with later in the week, and it is not a fair or valid argument to attempt to extract extra meaning out of a practice that our school of thought does not adhere to in the first place. This conversation could dive back into a debate about the validity of OMM techniques, but I think it is safe to say that only about half of OMT is reasonably safe from scrutiny so on that basis do you find this OMM lab argument to be very strong? Personally, if I were a DO student I would have PMed him and asked him to drop that point as it weakens the overall argument

Ill be honest and say I didn't read all of this-I'm on my phone.

But we may just disagree here. Here's what I know, and you can keep denying it, but it doesn't change it's verity. You can add a couple more hours to your week without reducing your current study plan. I say you, but I mean any student. You might sleep a bit less...you might be on SDN less🙂, but you have time. And OMM isn't that time consuming at all...

So no, OMM is not an academic disadvantage. In fact, learning anatomy from this perspective might even be an academic advantage.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Ill be honest and say I didn't read all of this-I'm on my phone.

But we may just disagree here. Here's what I know, and you can keep denying it, but it doesn't change it's verity. You can add a couple more hours to your week without reducing your current study plan. I say you, but I mean any student. You might sleep a bit less...you might be on SDN less🙂, but you have time. And OMM isn't that time consuming at all...

So no, OMM is not an academic disadvantage. In fact, learning anatomy from this perspective might even be an academic advantage.

If you think it is reasonable to simply assume by default that DO students spend more time on coursework than MD that is your prerogative.... I think that is silly and a little foolish

 

[HalfListic]

If you think it is reasonable to simply assume by default that DO students spend more time on coursework than MD that is your prerogative.... I think that is silly and a little foolish

? I think you misunderstood me

 

[SpecterGT260]

No I think that is the cut and dried version of what is being argued.

 

[HalfListic]

If you think it is reasonable to simply assume by default that DO students spend more time on coursework than MD that is your prerogative.... I think that is silly and a little foolish

you thought I was saying that DO students spend more time on coursework than MD.

I'm just letting you know that I never said that and that I don't think that either. Its probably the same, from the experiences related to me from my friends. There is variance by schools, but its generally the same huge work load.

What Im saying is that DOs also add in OMM, and that this extra few hours doesn't detract from their course work. (remember, we were talking about if OMM detracts from the academics of DOs...)

I never said DOs spent more time on coursework...

👍

edit:

P.S. I would be OK if this debate were over...Im not really invested in its outcome so I can't really put that much thought into it. I sense you are feeling the same.

I think we can agree that DO and MD students both work their tails off.

 

[SpecterGT260]

OMM is coursework 🙄

 

[deleted103644]

I think part of the issue is with the definition of "hands on" - you don't need to be touching a patient constantly to be interacting with them and taking part in their diagnosis and therapy. It's not that MD students don't touch their patients, it's just they don't practice the rest of the silliness that is being described here (and rightfully so).