MD vs. DO thread-- Final Resting Place

[CuttinEmUp]

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First of all, let me commend you for wanting to come to a fuller understanding of Osteopathic Medicine. It truly is an exciting and remarkable field of medicine (that is expanding rapidly) to get into. For you, there is no need to panic. Allopathic counterparts who are graduating from medical school today are not of the same mindset as the "old school" docs (for the most part). If having a "holistic" approach to medicine and emphasizing health instead of treatment is your thing, YOU WILL certainly be able to do that as an MD. You dont have to go to a DO school to care for people as people instead of "presenting illnesses". And when you get out into the big bad real world of practicing medicine: admins., docs, and you will care less about your initials and hopefully more about the patient (and insurance reimbursment, on-call hours, how many vacation days the hospital administrator owes you, why someone was parked in your designated "physician only" parking spot and other matters that dont regard the type of licensed medical degree you have).

If you would be interested in learning an additional mode of diagnostics, and treatment, then DO school would probably be of great value to you. You will learn many useful treatments to aid in the care of somatic dysfunctions. Again, the extent to which you utilize these in your own practice are individual and vary with your decision to implement them. Depending on the strength of your application, it may be a good idea for you to apply asap to some good DO schools, land some interviews and go see how you feel at the schools.

Look into the various programs that might suit your personal tastes, IE: do you want to practice rural medicine? where you want to live? etc. -- Then apply and check those schools out. Plenty of really well established, strong DO programs are out there....if you are interested (and to prevent FLAME wars on here), PM me and I will suggest my personal thoughts on schools that I applied to that have excellent programs and well developed relationships and networks within the medical community to offer you the best opportunities.

Good Luck if you decide to apply!

 

[DancerDoc777]

thanks, somehow that really knock some senses into me

You're totally welcome! I'm glad that it helped you! So, to sum up these posts, it sounds like school A might be the winner 😉. You get to stay close to your family, have cheaper tuition which will be a huge relief in the long run, meet and develop some great relationships within the diverse student body, and ultimately become a doctor which is the whole point of all of this, right? How would you be losing then?

In response to J1515's comment about admitting your desire to be an MD for respect and prestige-who doesn't want to be respected? And, frankly, the prestige is a moot point because that comes with just being a doctor. If that is what you're looking for (although I hope it's not), then great because you're headed in that direction regardless of the MD/DO degree. My friend always tells me about how whenever her brother (a doctor) walks into a cocktail party or dinner and tells someone that they're a doctor, most of the room stops and looks to see who. The point is, that these people didn't ask-oh wait-MD or DO? They just automatically have a positive reaction because they heard the word 'doctor'.

I recently just decided to go the DO route, and I'm only applying DO. Honestly, praying is my best advice because that really helped me make that decision 🙂. I've really discovered that my decision for becoming a doctor has nothing to do with an 'MD or DO'. Anyway, Newgirl, I'm sure you'll make the right decision!

 

[DancerDoc777]

Etoile, it's absolutely not too late to apply DO! I really felt like I should respond to your post because I can totally relate. I recently just decided on the DO route after my pre-med advisor suggested it. Initially, I was in a constant struggle over the 'DO' issue because of the notorious rumors and uneducated, false insights about Osteopathic medicine bombarding me during my pre-med years. It was tough to get over those deep-seated ideas and beliefs but I did a lot of research online, read through a lot of DO discussions here, talked to a DO med student, discussed it with my family, and mostly just prayed until I realized that where I go to school won't matter. My passion and motivation for becoming a doctor has nothing to do with having the two letters 'MD' after my name. Similarly to yours, my whole reason is international medicine. After experiencing third-world medicine, I've discovered that I want to devote my life to healing the people overseas who have no medical care. In the worst parts of the world, in the most desperate and devastated areas, they are not going to care whether you're a DO/MD.

So, I would seriously suggest that you listen to this beckoning you're feeling and start applying now! Go to aacomas.aacom.org and do the application, because it can't hurt! Like you, I was concerned about applying this late, but I went ahead with it and just submitted my aacomas application on Saturday night (10/27). If I were you, I would just continue on with the interviews and everything you started with the MD cycle, but just add on these DOs because it sounds like you'll regret it if you don't. Good luck with everything!

 

[mastamark]

Good for you Little Etoile, for coming to the light side...J/K. Sorry I can't be much help but I wanted to say good Luck .

May your interviews be plentiful, and your acceptances merry. 😳 <----I tried

 

[GreenShirt]

I'm sure that going to an MD school will provide me with opportunities to get into integrative medicine, but I'm worried that it a) won't provide me with as strong of a foundation as going to a DO school would and b) I won't be as happy. There's something to be said about being surrounded by colleagues who support your ideas and are headed in the same direction.
I'm concerned that if I go to an MD school I'll feel as isolated and out of place as I did at Berkeley. I really had to carve my own way and struggle to pursue my interest in psychoneuroimmunoendocrinolgy and the mind-body connection. I would much rather be in an educational environment that actually *supported* and incorporated this into their curriculum rather than leaving me to grasp at straws on my own. As much as self-sufficiency is a vital skill, little to no support is not a great way to prepare for a career.

Thanks for the help though, for sure. I greatly appreciate it. I'm not as panicked as this post probably comes across, I'm just really unsure at this point and am feeling the time (and financial!) crunch. I just want to ensure that I make a decision that makes me the happiest both short and long term. Not too tall of an order, right? 😉

The DO application cycle has later deadlines than the MD cycle, so you could still get your primary in (dealines Dec-Feb). The only potential problem you may encounter is that many DO schools will prefer that you have an LOR from a DO. If you could get that favorite Dr. to write you one, it would be great. DO schools will love to get an applicant that is genuinely interested in OMM.

When you say you want an international career, do you mean you plan on living in another country and practicing or do want to work for an international organization? You'll encounter less problems with the later scenario b/c many international groups (ie MSF) accept DOs. Otherwise it will depend on the country where you want to live.

The whole "stigma" thing is really more of a minor nuissance. At my school we're taught by both MDs & DOs and generally way to busy studying to worry about the difference.

Here's the link to AACOM, where you can get more info on DO, the link to the application and dealines (under Osteo Medical Schools): http://www.aacom.org/.

Good luck!

 

[Kappy1]

What is HALP? does it stand for have a lot of problems....J/K. The best resource for information is the AACOM website, besides specific school info it also has its own version of MSAR which is downloadable for free on the site as a pdf. I hope you are accepted to the school of your choice good luck!!!

Time to get back to Anatomy of the forearem. Extensor carpi radialis longous, extensor carpi radialis brevis, extensor digitorum.....

 

[CuttinEmUp]

What is HALP? does it stand for have a lot of problems....J/K. The best resource for information is the AACOM website, besides specific school info it also has its own version of MSAR which is downloadable for free on the site as a pdf. I hope you are accepted to the school of your choice good luck!!!

Time to get back to Anatomy of the forearem. Extensor carpi radialis longous, extensor carpi radialis brevis, extensor digitorum.....

the forearm...that was a breeze! wait until you see pelvis & perineum -- we just finished the abdomen & pelvis 😱😕😡

Today we started head and neck....so excited to see what this has in store for us haha 😛

 

[Kappy1]

the forearm...that was a breeze! wait until you see pelvis & perineum -- we just finished the abdomen & pelvis 😱😕😡

Today we started head and neck....so excited to see what this has in store for us haha 😛

Did the pelvis and abdomen already. I thought they were alot easier some how that material managed to stick. Sorry for hijacking the thread. I feel bad for you. I hear the head and neck is impossible.

 

[CuttinEmUp]

Did the pelvis and abdomen already. I thought they were alot easier some how that material managed to stick. Sorry for hijacking the thread. I feel bad for you. I hear the head and neck is impossible.

maybe your right, because it was in the early part of the semester, we think that the earlier stuff was easier (I think upper limb was easy, you think pelvis was easier).

The head and neck stuff we did today (superficial, cutaneous, motor and muscles) isn't too bad. Anyways, good luck with your studying 👍

 

[tkim]

which of the two school would you rather be in

School A
DO program
in state, 1 hr from home
$36,000 tuition
expensive cost of living
small ugly school (architecturally)
diverse student body

School B
MD program
out of state, midwest
$44,000 tuition
cheap cost of living
large beautiful school (architecturally)
not so diverse student body

School A sounds like my school - Western.

My advice: go to school with the cheapest total cost, that has the most intangibles that you need to be happy. Intangibles should always trump out cost - within reason. There's talk that loan deferment during residency may become a thing of the past and that minimum loan repayments after graduation may become the norm.

What intangibles? Say that you must absolutely have something from Pinkberrys when you are depressed. Or that a double-double animal style is one of the basic food groups for you. Anything that represents a high cost of acclimation will cost you in comfort and ease of work.

Here's something I didn't consider that I wish I did: location of residencies.

I came from the east coast, went to school on the west coast and literally flew back and forth 8-9 times during interview season because I wanted to return to the east. Frickin' killed me financially.

Also, it's much harder to do away/audition rotations when it involves finding short term housing and cross-country travel, which thankfully I didn't do but might have. If you want do residency in a specific geographic area, it's easier and cheaper to go to a school that's close. Not only will you have easier access during rotations, but you won't have to travel and pay as much if you keep the interviews to one region.

Again, none of that matters if you are miserable at the school.

 

[J1515]

I am not sure if you are referring to me but yes that is exactly what the motivations are for a lot of people - regardless of what they say on their personal statement. There is nothing wrong with it per se - if its going to make you happy, go for it. I don't believe in 'we are born to be this or that' crap - people can be successful and happy in a career for a variety of reasons.

I don't buy into the whole "it's my calling" garbage either. I was not refering to you specifically. But I have no problem questioning someone's reasoning for going into medicine when they practically say if they couldn't be an MD then they'd rather not be a doctor at all. (again, not referring to you). Everyone is entitled to their opinions and choices, but if you're that insecure that you need two letters after your name to boost your ego, those insecurities aren't going to magically disappear. They will always manifest in some way - you'll have to prove your residency is better than mine, your internal medicine field is better than my neurosurgery, your small community hospital is better than my academic hospital. You see, it will NOT end with the two letters after your name. This is a concept that most doctors, residents, and med students have grasped and that's why you don't see childish arguments in the real world about DO/FMG/IMG/PA. Unfortunately, pre-meds are still in the "what's the best......" phase because they want to be better than everyone else. All I can say is when you're reading 200 pages of text per night or working 36 hours straight on your surgery rotation you'll understand too.

 

[tkim]

Finally, my personal reason for wanting to go MD is because I am interested in having a global health career and many countries don't recognize DO or do set limitations to their practice such as manipulations only.

What exactly is a 'global health career'?

 

[sexyman]

To the OP-

From your ridiculous rant you obviously do not want to become a DO. Your post had some type of strange vibe as if someone is forcing you to become a DO.

Do us all a favor and go to the Carib.

 

[theNEWgirl]

I don't buy into the whole "it's my calling" garbage either. I was not refering to you specifically. But I have no problem questioning someone's reasoning for going into medicine when they practically say if they couldn't be an MD then they'd rather not be a doctor at all. (again, not referring to you). Everyone is entitled to their opinions and choices, but if you're that insecure that you need two letters after your name to boost your ego, those insecurities aren't going to magically disappear. They will always manifest in some way - you'll have to prove your residency is better than mine, your internal medicine field is better than my neurosurgery, your small community hospital is better than my academic hospital. You see, it will NOT end with the two letters after your name. This is a concept that most doctors, residents, and med students have grasped and that's why you don't see childish arguments in the real world about DO/FMG/IMG/PA. Unfortunately, pre-meds are still in the "what's the best......" phase because they want to be better than everyone else. All I can say is when you're reading 200 pages of text per night or working 36 hours straight on your surgery rotation you'll understand too.

I'm not sure why you automatically label people who want to go into MD as doing it for the prestige and to be better than others. I know a lot of students who want to go into MD instead of DO because they don't want to face difficulties and the stigmata that ignorant people place on DO. Others avoid DO program because they don't want to have to learn extra, OMM.

As for myself, it's the former. Even though I say I want to do OB/Gyn or EM now, who knows that might change years from now. That's why I'm also considering MD despite the high cost of tuition and the location.

 

[theNEWgirl]

Although the tuition of the DO school is low compared to the MD school, its cost of living is very high. That should offset part of the debt concern.

I just looked at up, it turns out the debt for both schools will be the same.

 

[theNEWgirl]

To the OP-

From your ridiculous rant you obviously do not want to become a DO. Your post had some type of strange vibe as if someone is forcing you to become a DO.

Do us all a favor and go to the Carib.

hahaha, ouch

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Are you looking for us to convince you that you should go to a DO school? I don't think that should be necessary. Just ask yourself this question...

Am I smart enough, and a hard enough worker, that I can get where I want to be from a DO school? If not, would going to an MD school give me an advantage?

When I asked myself that question, I answered yes to the first, making it unnecessary to go on to the second. If I am accepted to a DO school I like, I will proceed to cancel the majority of my remaining MD and DO applications. By the time the MD schools get around to me, I will likely have already made my decision.

Nothing against MD schools, but I'm ready to get this process over with. Then I'm ready to go start working towards my surgery residency.

 

[Meatwad]

There's not an original question in your post. This has been done many, many times, even within the past week. Take a little while to sift through all these threads. You'll get plenty of info.

 

[J1515]

I'm not sure why you automatically label people who want to go into MD as doing it for the prestige and to be better than others. I know a lot of students who want to go into MD instead of DO because they don't want to face difficulties and the stigmata that ignorant people place on DO. Others avoid DO program because they don't want to have to learn extra, OMM.

I never said such a thing. I made that claim about US students who would rather go to an unaccredited school in some third world country to get an MD than get a DO in the US (assuming they could get in). If you think all of OMM is nonsense and can't stand the thought of spending an extra couple of hours a week learning it, then that's understandable.

Also, and I'm not saying this to belittle you or anything, nor do I think I know-it-all as a 3rd year medical student, but who are these "people" that place a stigma on DOs? I want names and/or hospital affiliations. Just because your pre-med advisor tells you something or another pre-med's father who's a doctor told you something, or other pre-meds on SDN told you something doesn't make it true and oftentimes it isn't. Talk to every DO in the area you'd like to practice and ask their opinion. Yes, there are a few allopathic residencies that haven't taken DOs in the past and some haven't taken FMGs, but the way I see it that is compensated for by the number of osteopathic residencies only open to DOs. Here's a little tip: Don't believe ANYTHING you read in the pre-med forums on SDN. And one last note on the "stigma" that SDN pre-meds love to talk about. When patients need a cardiologist, or ob/gyn, they don't just look in the yellow pages, pick a doctor, see the DO next to his name and move onto the next one that says MD. Nor do they call the doctor and ask him if he went to medical school in the US. You go to your primary care physician and ask for a referral. Or you ask your friend or family member if they know a doctor in the specialty you need. Nobody, and I mean nobody says "I'm referring you to Dr. Smith, he's a great cardiologist but he's a DO, would you prefer an MD?" In the pre-med world you might think that's how it works but in the real world of illnesses and disease, the patients just want a doctor who is competent, caring, and knows what they're talking about.

I've said it once before and I think it warrants saying again, pre-meds need to think about this FROM A PATIENT'S PERSPECTIVE. You, as students, are all in the mode of thinking you need to have the highest grade in the class, have the highest MCAT, get into the best medical school, get honors in every med school class, choose the most competitive specialty, get the most competitive residency and so forth. But don't lose track of what your goal in the end is and why you're doing all this. A patient who is rushed do the ER due to chest pain, has an abnormal EKG and has been waking up in the middle of the night with shortness of breath just wants his life saved and/or to be reassured that he will be ok. He doesn't care where you went to school, what you got on your MCAT, what letters follow your name, where you did your residency, etc. He wants to see that you know what you're talking about and are able to comfort him. Who cares if occasionally a patient sees DO on your nametag and asks what that stands for? I don't understand why that would make someone feel insecure? You take 10 seconds to explain that many years ago the osteopathic profession stemmed from a philosophy different from allopathic, but since then the two have more or less merged and are virtually the same now. Problem solved. You just saved this man's life AND you took 10 seconds to educate him on what DO stands for.

I apoligize for the super long post and I don't mean to sound defensive but I just want to make sure pre-meds make an educated decision with all the crap that is spewing from other peoples' mouths who haven't even set foot in a hospital yet but their friend's uncle's nephew is a doctor and said ________. In the end, do what is going to make you happy for those 4 years and learn the most you possibly can. For me, that was being near family and friends and familiar surroundings. Going out with friends you've known since high school or all throughout college is a great way to relieve the stress of med school, as is eating dinner with the family. If it happened to be a local MD school that allowed me to do this then so be it.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

As for myself, it's the former. Even though I say I want to do OB/Gyn or EM now, who knows that might change years from now. That's why I'm also considering MD despite the high cost of tuition and the location.

Omm is not a hard class, plus there are alot of treatments for pregnant woman.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

The point is that it doesn't matter. Wherever you go, you're going to have to make your own way. Even at places like Harvard, they don't have a vending machine in the lounge that will sell you a derm residency for $1. The people who match the tough slots from the big name MD schools had to work just as hard as the people who matched the tough slots from the no-name DO schools.

It really doesn't matter where you go. You're the one who is going to take care of business. The school won't do it for you.

As for the distance issue... there can be benefits to being close to home, and benefits to getting the hell away. I can't help you much there. Personally, I'd think I'd rather put some distance between myself and friends/family who might be a distraction, but that's just me.

 

[lacesoutdan]

I just looked at up, it turns out the debt for both schools will be the same.

Then go M.D., unless you think having this debate for the rest of your career and being discriminated against by many M.D. residency programs is worth living closer to your family.

The people who match the tough slots from the big name MD schools had to work just as hard as the people who matched the tough slots from the no-name DO schools.

I doubt it. The people who matched from the DO schools probably had to be smarter and/or work a lot harder.

 

[hermit]

It seems that just about 90% of everyone who goes to DO school and is a DO did so because they couldn't get in to an MD school.

I'm not sure that 90% is an accurate figure, but I'm willing to bet it's at least 50%. Since there is no hard statistic on this, it must be inferred from other places.

1. DO schools accept more students to fill a class than most MD schools (implying that when applicants get MD acceptances, they withdraw from the DO school)

2. Entry into DO residencies has been declining for over a decade (if graduating DOs were sold on the "philosophy," why jump to the MD ship at the first opportunity)

3. DO matriculants have lower stats. Two possibilities here: Either the "philosophy" attracts poor students or those whose stats didn't get them into MD school go the DO route. The latter is much more likely.

4. You will see DO = MD + OMM posted on here all the time. Since the stats show that extremely few practicing DOs actually use OMM, I expect that they don't buy into it any more than the rest of the medical profession.

If you spend way too much time on SDN like me, you will begin to form mini-profiles of the people here. I'm not looking to call people out by name, but I would encourage you to research the MDApps and post histories of several of the most adamant DO defenders. Many are reapplying DO because they did not get accepted to MD schools in previous years. Which, frankly, I have no problem with. I applied DO as a backup and would have gone if I didn't get any MD acceptances. Further, in order to maintain my sanity, I would have spent the duration of medical school convincing myself that the path was "really the best choice for me after all."

After all is said and done, there is no question that they are competent physicians. But if you rewind all the way to day one - when they applied for school - there can be little doubt that a very large portion of them first tried the MD route.

 

[sexyman]

wow hermit that was enlightening....

Please be sure to keep posting in osteo because you make such original and thought provoking threads.

I'm still not sure as to how any of what you said translates into being able to successfully practice medicine after graduation from medical school. O yea, a high MCAT score makes you a better physician- thats right my bad.

 

[sexyman]

^yea

If you are even thinking about DO vs MD this much just do yourself a favor and get the MD. You can be close to your family for the rest of your life. It might be good to be away from them anyway for studying purposes.

 

[hermit]

I'm still not sure as to how any of what you said translates into being able to successfully practice medicine after graduation from medical school.

Ummm....I wasn't commenting on this at all. In fact I explicitly stated that "there is no doubt they [DOs] are competent physicians." My post specifically addressed the OP's inquiry about how many people are entering DO school after being denied MD spots.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

You're assuming that the lower numbers means that DO applicants somehow don't work as hard or aren't as smart. In reality, the DO schools get a lot of people who are non-traditional, and thus, didn't really have med school as a goal of theirs fromt he day they set foot on campus.

I am one of these people. I never studied in high school or college until I decided that I wanted to do this. And it didn't happen over night for me. It took some time to develop good study skills and habits, but its to the point now that, once I get my mind into it, I can get through it as well as anybody. I got a 33 on my MCAT on a bad day (had a bad headache... was pretty hypoglcemic that day... a 33 was the lowest score I got on any AAMC diagnostic; 37 was highest), and I got A's in some pretty tough classes. As a Kinesiology guy, I got the highest grade in the class in Biochemistry II (for biochem majors... the only reason I was allowed to enroll was because I had a degree, and at my school, this means all enrollment requirements are waived). I could go on.

I've been interviewed at MD schools, and I think I've got a shot. So why do I prefer DO?

1. DO schools have an older student body, b/c more non-traditional students. I am 30. I would be more comfortable with more mature people.

2. Less cut-throat. I've heard of people at some of these really competitive schools sabatoging other students' cadavers, hiding books, etc., so that they can overtake them in class rank. That is ridiculous. Are we going to sabatoge each other's patients when we're practicing medicine for real? See #1.

3. Spin it however you want... but the education is the same. It isn't like DO schools are run out of some guy's basement, and MD schools are all at state-of-the-art teaching hospitals. My education will simply be what I make of it, and I am comfortable with my ability to achieve whatever I want at any med school I go to. DO/MD... makes no difference. I'll take the USMLE Step I, get 230+, and land a surgery residency. I have no real evidence to back this up, but I've always been at my best when stuff was most challenging. Also, I won't have to work during school for the first time ever. More time to study.

Some people who go to DO schools are non-traditional because they've had families, other careers, etc., to deal with. So while maybe they can't put in the time necessary to pull a 30+ MCAT or get a 3.7 GPA in college, but they've still got the ability to perform at a high level in med school. Many DO schools will give these people a closer look, while most MD schools won't, even though these people could easily do the work at any MD school.

Having said all that, if an MD school in Texas comes calling, I'm there. With the exception of Texas Tech, because I know so many people there who hate it because of their antiquated curriculum. The cheap in-state tuition is too much to resist.

And there are people on this board who are going to DO schools who clearly have the option to go to MD schools. People with great grades and high MCAT scores. Unless you're talking about a school like Harvard/Stanford/Hopkins/etc. on the top-level of MD schools, I really don't see an advantage. Go wherever you feel comfortable, for whatever reason.

The point is, it just isn't as simple as higher vs. lower MCATs and GPAs. And I understand that, with the high application volume, the MD schools can be more picky along these lines. But to say that the DO schools are just taking people who can't hack it at an MD school is absurd.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Not true. I am friends with a student from Harvard, and though he had below average Step I scores for his specialty, and was near the bottom of the class at Harvard (someone has to finish at the bottom) and with almost no research and he got an interview at virtually every single place he applied. You try doing that with a lower-tier MD school or a DO degree, and I guarantee you a vastly different outcome.

It doesn't matter as much as some pre-meds think, but it certainly plays a role and especially if you come from places like Harvard or Hopkins - it plays a big role.

Okay so maybe Harvard isn't a great example, but do you not think that dude worked as hard as most of the other people who got similar interviews, and he just finished at the bottom of his class because he's at Harvard, and everyone there is a genius? And he probably had good reviews from his rotations and whatnot. Harvard is an extremely competitive environment, and I have no doubt that your buddy is a smart guy who worked his ass off.

I'm sure it plays a role, but if you want a competitive residency, you have to work hard for it, no matter where you go.

 

[IUgrad]

You're assuming that the lower numbers means that DO applicants somehow don't work as hard or aren't as smart. In reality, the DO schools get a lot of people who are non-traditional, and thus, didn't really have med school as a goal of theirs fromt he day they set foot on campus.

I am one of these people. I never studied in high school or college until I decided that I wanted to do this. And it didn't happen over night for me. It took some time to develop good study skills and habits, but its to the point now that, once I get my mind into it, I can get through it as well as anybody. I got a 33 on my MCAT on a bad day (had a bad headache... was pretty hypoglcemic that day... a 33 was the lowest score I got on any AAMC diagnostic; 37 was highest), and I got A's in some pretty tough classes. As a Kinesiology guy, I got the highest grade in the class in Biochemistry II (for biochem majors... the only reason I was allowed to enroll was because I had a degree, and at my school, this means all enrollment requirements are waived). I could go on.

I've been interviewed at MD schools, and I think I've got a shot. So why do I prefer DO?

1. DO schools have an older student body, b/c more non-traditional students. I am 30. I would be more comfortable with more mature people.

2. Less cut-throat. I've heard of people at some of these really competitive schools sabatoging other students' cadavers, hiding books, etc., so that they can overtake them in class rank. That is ridiculous. Are we going to sabatoge each other's patients when we're practicing medicine for real? See #1.

3. Spin it however you want... but the education is the same. It isn't like DO schools are run out of some guy's basement, and MD schools are all at state-of-the-art teaching hospitals. My education will simply be what I make of it, and I am comfortable with my ability to achieve whatever I want at any med school I go to. DO/MD... makes no difference. I'll take the USMLE Step I, get 230+, and land a surgery residency. I have no real evidence to back this up, but I've always been at my best when stuff was most challenging. Also, I won't have to work during school for the first time ever. More time to study.

Some people who go to DO schools are non-traditional because they've had families, other careers, etc., to deal with. So while maybe they can't put in the time necessary to pull a 30+ MCAT or get a 3.7 GPA in college, but they've still got the ability to perform at a high level in med school. Many DO schools will give these people a closer look, while most MD schools won't, even though these people could easily do the work at any MD school.

Having said all that, if an MD school in Texas comes calling, I'm there. With the exception of Texas Tech, because I know so many people there who hate it because of their antiquated curriculum. The cheap in-state tuition is too much to resist.

And there are people on this board who are going to DO schools who clearly have the option to go to MD schools. People with great grades and high MCAT scores. Unless you're talking about a school like Harvard/Stanford/Hopkins/etc. on the top-level of MD schools, I really don't see an advantage. Go wherever you feel comfortable, for whatever reason.

The point is, it just isn't as simple as higher vs. lower MCATs and GPAs. And I understand that, with the high application volume, the MD schools can be more picky along these lines. But to say that the DO schools are just taking people who can't hack it at an MD school is absurd.

👍 good post

 

[J1515]

Then go M.D., unless you think having this debate for the rest of your career and being discriminated against by many M.D. residency programs is worth living closer to your family.



I doubt it. The people who matched from the DO schools probably had to be smarter and/or work a lot harder.

🙄 Can you please list the *many" residency programs that will discriminate against DOs? Please don't give advice about things you know nothing about and what little you do know is from SDN or what one or two people told you. You will confuse people who don't know any better.

I'm officially done here. It's obvious premeds would rather listen to themselves talk than take the advice of a 3rd year student who was accepted to both MD and DO, has rotated at many different hospitals with DOs and MDs and has actually been through this process.

To the OP, if you have any questions for someone who actually has experience with this stuff feel free to PM me or any of the students/residents in the Osteopathic forum. Good luck.

 

[UTBME]

The difference in debt in the long run isn't too big of a deal. As an ob/gyn or EM, you're going to make it up no problem. You have to look at what's important to you. If being in an ugly architechtural building's going to annoy you/make you unhappy/depressed then I think that should be a factor in your decision. Then look at how important being close to your family is to you. But I think your torn decision is really directed at MD/DO. If you're still having any issues w/ MD/DO then go with MD. Yes, from a practicing standpoint MD=DO, but ultimately you're paying for those two letters after your name. Choose the letters that would make you proud and not what any of us posters or anyone else thinks. All the other factors you've mentioned are temporary, MD/DO is for the rest of your life. Go with the one you're the most comfortable with.

 

[hermit]

TexasTriathlete, I am not disputing anything you said. Fitting in with your classmates and a supportive atmosphere are valid reasons to like a school. But you are a perfect example of someone who (according to your MDApps) applied exclusively MD, was not successful, and is now applying DO.

I didn't say that DO applicants couldn't hack it at an MD school. I said that if given the choice, a substantial number of DO applicants would prefer to attend an MD school (which is what the OP was asking about). Based on your application history, is not it appropriate to include you in this category? Put another way, wasn't your first choice MD?

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I applied exclusively MD the first time because I didn't know what the hell a DO was. If I had started my volunteer work earlier, I would have been exposed to many DO's earlier. There are 7 MD schools in Texas, and the pre-med office pushes them all on us. I don't think they told me anything about TCOM, other than the fact that its on the application. And the UT pre-med office isn't in the business of sending students out-of-state. They don't know much about any non-TX schools. So I was basically on my own to find out about these DO schools.

Had I known then what I know now, I would have applied to just as many DO schools, and I likely would have felt the exact same way.

 

[lacesoutdan]

🙄 Can you please list the *many" residency programs that will discriminate against DOs? Please don't give advice about things you know nothing about and what little you do know is from SDN or what one or two people told you. You will confuse people who don't know any better.

I'm officially done here. It's obvious premeds would rather listen to themselves talk than take the advice of a 3rd year student who was accepted to both MD and DO, has rotated at many different hospitals with DOs and MDs and has actually been through this process.

To the OP, if you have any questions for someone who actually has experience with this stuff feel free to PM me or any of the students/residents in the Osteopathic forum. Good luck.

This is from my copy of the 7th edition of Iserson's Getting Into A Residency by Kenneth Iserson:

"To deny that many M.D. residency programs descriminate against D.O.s would be foolish. Many residency directors do not understand that Osteopathic training parrallels that of M.D. schools. This discrimination, however, varies by the area of the country and by the specialty. In areas where many D.O.s practice and Osteopathic medical schools have been established, there is minimal discrimination. Where there are few D.O.'s, ignorance abounds. As to specialties, residency programs in General Surgery and it subspecialties remain the major areas that automatically reject many D.O. residency applicants."

 

[theserbatron]

it seems like a lot of the issues many applicants have with being a DO boils down to one thing: lack of visibility of DOs in America. DOs have worked long and hard to make their educations and residency programs as strong as they are, and currently, are on a tremendous upswing of growth and prominence. i would be honored to be a part of that growth -- if you're a candidate who is not comfortable with being a part of a growing minority, then osteopathic medicine is certainly not for you.

In 10-20 years, when we have all (hopefully!) completed school and are in practice, DOs will have a much more visible roll in medicine in America. they wont be looked down upon by people who don't know what the degree is and posts like these will be less and less frequent because the problem of visibility will be no more. When I explain to friends and family what a DO is, their eyes light up and they appreciate the focus on preventive care and are curious about this new alternative to stereotypical "prescription-perpetuating" MDs (i'm not saying that this is what MD practice is about, but this is what i have heard from my friends or relatives... "take this pill" just isn't cutting it for more and more Americans).

i want to be a physician, and either MD or DO programs, which all have their pluses and minuses, will allow me to pursue the career i'm determined to make a difference in. i'll be judging all the programs i interview at on the same criteria, regardless of the degree they offer.

 

[hermit]

I applied exclusively MD the first time because I didn't know what the hell a DO was.

You're 29 years old, well educated, interested in health care, live in the 7th most DO populated state, and have never heard of one.

Personally, I think that's a major factor for people relying on DO as a backup. They bust their butt for 8+ years and no one knows what the heck they do.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

The first time I heard of a DO, I went to a psychiatrist for my ADHD medicine. I was 25, and this was a big part of what helped me get it together for school.

I saw his "Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine" diploma on the wall and I thought "why is a bone guy going to be my psychiatrist?"

I asked him about it, but I still didn't really get it until I started to see them in a bunch of different areas of medicine, once I started my hospital volunteer work. By then, it was too late to apply.

 

[sexyman]

agreed with

Personally, I think that's a major factor for people relying on DO as a backup. They bust their butt for 8+ years and no one knows what the heck they do.

 

[Meatwad]

I saw his "Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine" diploma on the wall and I thought "why is a bone guy going to be my psychiatrist?"

I went to a GI doc once who went to NYCOM. I saw he was a DO and thought the same exact thing: what kind of quack doctor thinks that the GI system is somehow caused by a disorder with my bones?? I automatically assumed the prefix "osteo-" meant they claimed everything had to do with a bone problem.

Of course, this was years before I ever though about med school and learned what osteopathic medicine is.

 

[J1515]

This is from my copy of the 7th edition of Iserson's Getting Into A Residency by Kenneth Iserson:

"To deny that many M.D. residency programs descriminate against D.O.s would be foolish. Many residency directors do not understand that Osteopathic training parrallels that of M.D. schools. This discrimination, however, varies by the area of the country and by the specialty. In areas where many D.O.s practice and Osteopathic medical schools have been established, there is minimal discrimination. Where there are few D.O.'s, ignorance abounds. As to specialties, residency programs in General Surgery and it subspecialties remain the major areas that automatically reject many D.O. residency applicants."

🙄 🙄

Not your fault, you're just naive. But this is why pre-meds shouldn't give other pre-meds advice. I 100% PROMISE you general surgery programs as a whole do not automatically reject DOs. The 2007 graduating class (DOs) at NYCOM had surgery matches in osteopathic AND allopathic institutions, to name a few of the allopathics (and these aren't all of them):

SUNY Stonybrook, NY Medical center, St. Vincents, SUNY upstate, JOHNS HOPKINS(yes, you read that right), New York Medical College, and neurosurgery at LIJ/North Shore.

The 2006 NYCOM class, a few of the allopathic general surgery matches were (again, these aren't all of them):

Lutharan Med center, st. vincents, Wykoff, NUMC, univ. of massachusettes, North Shore/LIJ, SUNY Downstate, Henry Ford, SUNY Stony Brook.

The complete match lists are available online and I recommend you check out the number of allopathic matches in each of them before you give out advice based on something you read.

In addition to those listed above, obviously there were osteopathic surgery residencies matched into as well. Don't believe everything you read.

 

[Concubine]

Either is cool with me. However, my top schools turn out to be M.D. schools.

 

[J1515]

I don't care if I earn an MD or DO... I'll be applying to both schools and my most important criterias will be as follows
1) in-state (prefer schools with a lot of clinical connections)
2) tuition

As far as "repest" and all that "MD" hype goes, I am not buying it.... Sure sometimes people might think an MD is "more respected" than a DO but I think thats a load of crap.... if you are a good doctor people WILL pay you respect, if your a sh**** doctor, no one will respect you regardless of what degree you have.

When you earn your MD or DO degree, work your ass off during your internship / residency years, and be the best doctor you can be, I guarantee, people WILL respect you

oh and I forgot to mention, I am mostly focused on primary care (Internal medicine all the way), so I think DOs get pretty good matchlists for IM

It's refreshing to hear a pre-med who seems to know what he's talking about, regardless of whether you end up at an MD school or DO school.

 

[spicedmanna]

Unless you want to have these conversations for the rest of your life, go MD.

Nah, these "types" of conversations are only really prevalent amongst premeds.

 

[J1515]

Personally, I think that's a major factor for people relying on DO as a backup. They bust their butt for 8+ years and no one knows what the heck they do.

Who cares? You're saving lives and healing patients. Isn't that why you're going into medicine?

 

[spicedmanna]

Ditto. I'm planning on picking the best school for me, regardless of the degree.

That's a solid approach, in my opinion.

 

[Meatwad]

Who cares? You're saving lives and healing patients. Isn't that why you're going into medicine?

That's probably the simplest and best answer I've ever seen to this ridiculous MD vs. DO debate.

 

[Nasem]

Let me break it down to ya....

first of all, I think its funny as hell to see pre-meds talk about what sort of residency spots they can match into, FOR PETE'S SAKE YOU HAVEN'T EVEN STARTED 1ST YEAR MED SCHOOL, HOW THE **** CAN YOU POSSIBLY KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO END UP AS?!?!?! Sometimes I see people talk about how they wanna end up in radiology, dermatalogy, plastics, etc etc ... I say LMAO, they ONLY reason why they are picking those over any other specialty is because they saw the average salaries for physicians and said "oh man, derm make 350+K a year... IM DOING THIS !!!"

Anyways, back to my point, The only real debate I see between MD vs DO is the residency spots available to both.... I think MDs have a tendency to match better into the higher up residency spots (radiology, dermatalogy, plastics, etc etc).... But the problem is, you REALLY can't know what you want to do unless you start Med school and atleast get really invovled into your 3rd and 4th year...... those (from what people been teeling me) are the years which makes the med students decide which residency to go after....

For us (pre-meds), we really aren't sure what we want to do (today I say I want IM, but during my MS3 & 4, I might change to plastics or whatever), so MD vs DO shouldn't be a debate, it should be more like 2 options to apply for, whichever one gives you an acceptance is the one you choose (if you get multiple, pick your best)......

 

[txkiteboarder]

That's a solid approach, in my opinion.

i met someone who chose pcom over UPENN. I will let others figure that one out...

 

[TexasTriathlete]

That person probably thinks he or she is smart enough to accomplish what he/she wants, regardless of the school.

 

[Nasem]

.