MD vs DO vs Caribbean. Hard Facts and Statistics

[drctother]

Alright, lets not get too critical here. I dont see anyone else taking the time to compile countless data into a nice organized thread. AND he is willing to update apparently.

I look at these data tables and it gives me hope, but I also know the data isn't 100% accurate. Look at trends and the big picture

If people seem to think they can make a more accurate thread than HockeyDr, I challenge you to step up instead of sitting at your keyboard trolling NOM NOM NOM NOM

For what its worth, I really appreciate you taking the time to make this thread as clearly you didnt have to do it

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[NurWollen]

If you look at Dooder's post history, youll notice a very prominent recurring theme.

You nailed it... and btw, that is the most epic troll picture ever.

El doodorino (is that Spanish?): Just stop.

 

[ManBroDude]

Spreadsheet updated and includes PGY-1 and PGY-2 matches. Pretty much if anyone matched in the NRMP or the AOA, they are accounted for.

P.S dannydickman, you should probably either update or delete the shots, some of the data listed on there is wrong now.

All updated.

 

[NurWollen]

I don't have a "position". I just wanted to post all of the data. (Which I have done)

I PM'ed you. If you have a problem, deal with it there.


edit:
Good call Sloo0. I don't know why I always get sucked in.

HockeyDr, I know you already got in, but if I were an adcom I would admit you based on the epicness of your data alone.

 

[DocEspana]

It still has problems. Urology is all wrong because it's not in the nrmp match so you might as well not count it (come on, you think there are only 9 urologists produced every year). An additional problem is youre counting ENT and facial plastics as a match for both ENT and integrated plastics for DO's. This skews the integrated plastics numbers

If you're going to be an asshat you should also point out that there are 400ish spots in California that go through the San Francisco match every year, which is also no the NRMP.

And to really through a wrench into the machinery, the NRMP does *not* count military matches but the AOA *does*.

cue mind blown. There will *always* be more data somewhere that cant be included in a (generally) massively encompassing data sheet. but the information is going to get more and more esoteric and irrelevant as he does include nearly all the information out there.

 

[clarkalim]

Wow, this is great! Thanks for posting this!

 

[Eobrien]

I am proud to say that you are in my class hockey doc. Well done sir. Hopefully you are in LDP. I believe you are from the upstate area too correct?! I am from Buffalo!

 

[trickynicky]

couldn't agree more

If you're going to be an asshat you should also point out that there are 400ish spots in California that go through the San Francisco match every year, which is also no the NRMP.

And to really through a wrench into the machinery, the NRMP does *not* count military matches but the AOA *does*.

cue mind blown. There will *always* be more data somewhere that cant be included in a (generally) massively encompassing data sheet. but the information is going to get more and more esoteric and irrelevant as he does include nearly all the information out there.

 

[El Dooderino]

If you're going to be an asshat you should also point out that there are 400ish spots in California that go through the San Francisco match every year, which is also no the NRMP.

And to really through a wrench into the machinery, the NRMP does *not* count military matches but the AOA *does*.

cue mind blown. There will *always* be more data somewhere that cant be included in a (generally) massively encompassing data sheet. but the information is going to get more and more esoteric and irrelevant as he does include nearly all the information out there.

The SF match is basically ophtho, which he doesn't list on the bottom so no point in bringing it up. I don't know where you got the idea that it has anything to do with California

 

[p1acebo]

The SF match is basically ophtho, which he doesn't list on the bottom so no point in bringing it up. I don't know where you got the idea that it has anything to do with California

Wow El Dooderino, all of your comments are so helpful and really add to the data that the OP has posted. Tell me, where can I find your spread sheets with all the absolutely "correct" data.

Aka, don't you have anything better to do than troll on this thread? Probably not.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Although I didn't like the way El Dooderino went about it, I wouldn't worry about it. In the end I updated the stats to include all of the data he was talking about (I'll look to see if I can find the SF match data and MD military match data after work). The spreadsheet accounts for over 23,000 matching students, so I think most of the trends are accurate.

Some of the numbers do jump out at me.

US MD's only match 6.9% into family medicine. Compared to 19.47% for DO's and 23.40% for US IMG's. I can't believe how low it is for MD's.

DO's must really love EM (which is good because that's the specialty I have always saw myself in ). 11.42% compared to 7.00% MD, and 6.13% US IMG.

 

[Tallion]

Although I didn't like the way El Dooderino went about it, I wouldn't worry about it. In the end I updated the stats to include all of the data he was talking about (I'll look to see if I can find the SF match data and MD military match data after work). The spreadsheet accounts for over 23,000 matching students, so I think most of the trends are accurate.

Some of the numbers do jump out at me.

US MD's only match 6.9% into family medicine. Compared to 19.47% for DO's and 23.40% for US IMG's. I can't believe how low it is for MD's.

DO's must really love EM (which is good because that's the specialty I have always saw myself in ). 11.42% compared to 7.00% MD, and 6.13% US IMG.

HockeyDR, If you change your mind and decide not to go into medicine; you should go into statistics

Great job with the spreadsheet, I've always wondered about PGY-2 data but its always been so hard to find compiled in one place. Thanks for the hard work!

 

[0919mmk]

I don't have a "position". I just wanted to post all of the data. (Which I have done)

I PM'ed you. If you have a problem, deal with it there.


edit:
Good call Sloo0. I don't know why I always get sucked in.

Count me as +1 "thanks for your awesome work". Haters be hatin - it ain no thing.

I have a general question for the SDn braintrust. I am planning to apply DO this summer (as well as MD), and I was wondering how it works with the MD match vs. the DO match. Do you have to choose one or the other as a DO, or do you do both simultaneously? Or one after another?

 

[DocEspana]

Count me as +1 "thanks for your awesome work". Haters be hatin - it ain no thing.

I have a general question for the SDn braintrust. I am planning to apply DO this summer (as well as MD), and I was wondering how it works with the MD match vs. the DO match. Do you have to choose one or the other as a DO, or do you do both simultaneously? Or one after another?

The NMS (AOA) match is about 30-34 days (depending on how you count it) before the NRMP (MD) match. The rule there is that since technically the NMS and NRMP both require you to basically sign your life over to the federal gov't for residency (your *real* boss in residency) you are locked into the AOA match if you do match there. So if you apply to anything in the AOA and you match, you are automatically pulled from the NRMP.

So people really split on what to do here if they wish to apply to both. Some people apply as they normally would, but list only programs they'd be really happy with in the AOA, so as to not match into 'safety residencies' and miss out on the NRMP for that. If they miss it, then they go full out on the NRMP. Some people list only crazy programs (plastics, neurosurgery, etc) that they don't really think they'll get in for, but they're willing to interview for and hope for a miracle, and they put their 'real' match list 100% in the NRMP. A third group will entirely avoid the AOA match because all they want is NRMP residencies.

You'll figure out where you stand.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The NMS (AOA) match is about 30-34 days (depending on how you count it) before the NRMP (MD) match. The rule there is that since technically the NMS and NRMP both require you to basically sign your life over to the federal gov't for residency (your *real* boss in residency) you are locked into the AOA match if you do match there. So if you apply to anything in the AOA and you match, you are automatically pulled from the NRMP.

So people really split on what to do here if they wish to apply to both. Some people apply as they normally would, but list only programs they'd be really happy with in the AOA, so as to not match into 'safety residencies' and miss out on the NRMP for that. If they miss it, then they go full out on the NRMP. Some people list only crazy programs (plastics, neurosurgery, etc) that they don't really think they'll get in for, but they're willing to interview for and hope for a miracle, and they put their 'real' match list 100% in the NRMP. A third group will entirely avoid the AOA match because all they want is NRMP residencies.

You'll figure out where you stand.

How often is the second group successful?

 

[DocEspana]

How often is the second group successful?

Successful in matching to the NRMP? I'd imagine pretty frequently. ~70% is the usual match rate for NRMP. I'd imagine they're a little above it as these guys are likely not matching any real reaches for NRMP. How often are they successful in the AOA? Probably zero-as-limit-approaches-infinity percent.

I found out about this tactic around feb 14th of this year and was shocked people actually do this. If SDN is to be believed this is commonplace. My deans agreed that its done and not totally uncommon, but that to their knowledge no one from my school did that tactic this year. So. sort of conflicting info there.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Successful in matching to the NRMP? I'd imagine pretty frequently. ~70% is the usual match rate for NRMP. I'd imagine they're a little above it as these guys are likely not matching any real reaches for NRMP. How often are they successful in the AOA? Probably zero-as-limit-approaches-infinity percent.

I found out about this tactic around feb 14th of this year and was shocked people actually do this. If SDN is to be believed this is commonplace. My deans agreed that its done and not totally uncommon, but that to their knowledge no one from my school did that tactic this year. So. sort of conflicting info there.

So it's unlikely that applying to purely reach residencies such as ortho or optho in the AOA ( in the prospects of getting in and if failing to match be still allowed to match in the ACGME) is unlikely to yield positive results?

 

[DocEspana]

So it's unlikely that applying to purely reach residencies such as ortho or optho in the AOA ( in the prospects of getting in and if failing to match be still allowed to match in the ACGME) is unlikely to yield positive results?

Its unlikely to yeild the ortho or optho. These are, as a generalization, people who are applying to EM or IM or another 'mid-level' residency in the ACGME but trying for crazy matches in the AOA just incase. I'm sure it has happened once in a while (hell; we had a person *scramble* into neurosurgery in the AOA from our school) but the odds of that tactic leading to an AOA match have to be extremely close to zero.

I'm sure they have pretty good results in the NRMP though

 

[hanky1982]

The NMS (AOA) match is about 30-34 days (depending on how you count it) before the NRMP (MD) match. The rule there is that since technically the NMS and NRMP both require you to basically sign your life over to the federal gov't for residency (your *real* boss in residency) you are locked into the AOA match if you do match there. So if you apply to anything in the AOA and you match, you are automatically pulled from the NRMP.

So people really split on what to do here if they wish to apply to both. Some people apply as they normally would, but list only programs they'd be really happy with in the AOA, so as to not match into 'safety residencies' and miss out on the NRMP for that. If they miss it, then they go full out on the NRMP. Some people list only crazy programs (plastics, neurosurgery, etc) that they don't really think they'll get in for, but they're willing to interview for and hope for a miracle, and they put their 'real' match list 100% in the NRMP. A third group will entirely avoid the AOA match because all they want is NRMP residencies.

You'll figure out where you stand.

Well said. I think this topic confuses our underclassmen as well as pre-meds. Glad you shed a little light on this seemingly confusing subject.

 

[hanky1982]

Its unlikely to yeild the ortho or optho. These are, as a generalization, people who are applying to EM or IM or another 'mid-level' residency in the ACGME but trying for crazy matches in the AOA just incase. I'm sure it has happened once in a while (hell; we had a person *scramble* into neurosurgery in the AOA from our school) but the odds of that tactic leading to an AOA match have to be extremely close to zero.

I'm sure they have pretty good results in the NRMP though

As for ortho, I know that the vast majority if not all kids i talked to going into the AOA match didn't have back-up plans in ACGME ortho. The chances are so slim and we already have good training programs that nearly every one knows that if they want ortho, it is going to be through the AOA. I mean, if you are qualified enough for an ACGME residency you are probably just as competitive (or more) for the AOA. And to turn down all of the AOA residencies for the shot at the ACGMEs is a huge risk and one that most of us didn't want to take. Thus we self-select ourselves to rotating, applying and interviewing exclusively at AOA programs. Of course, there are a rare sub-set that match into ACGME spots every year (I think last year there were 3 or something like that).

A DO matching into an ACGME ortho is a unicorn by definition: I have never seen them, only have heard of them.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Its unlikely to yeild the ortho or optho. These are, as a generalization, people who are applying to EM or IM or another 'mid-level' residency in the ACGME but trying for crazy matches in the AOA just incase. I'm sure it has happened once in a while (hell; we had a person *scramble* into neurosurgery in the AOA from our school) but the odds of that tactic leading to an AOA match have to be extremely close to zero.

I'm sure they have pretty good results in the NRMP though

Fair enough, it just seemed like an interesting application strategy. You either get lucky and get into a hyper competitive residency and get removed from the ACGME match or you fail to and you're able to apply in the ACGME match and hopefully land a good residency.

 

[DocEspana]

Fair enough, it just seemed like an interesting application strategy. You either get lucky and get into a hyper competitive residency and get removed from the ACGME match or you fail to and you're able to apply in the ACGME match and hopefully land a good residency.

When put that way, it is a good strategy. and thats what people defending it have told me. I counter with the odds of getting that hyper competitive residency if you don't really find yourself qualified is so low, that its not worth the extra application fees.

Everyone figures out what they want to do and no ones logic but their own matters. (not saying they're wrong. just commenting on the resoluteness of their belief)

 

[DoctwoB]

Great thread, that seems to confirm what we all suspected. Namely that when it comes to matching in the US (especially for more competitive specialties), MD>DO>>USIMG. There will probably be some overlap (Best DO > Worst MD, SGU > worst DO, etc.), but the overall trend is clear. Being a DO doesn't seem to harm the application much for "moderately" competitive ACGME specialties like EM or anesthesiology (MD to DO ratio = ~10:1, similar to IM), but does seem to be a severe hindrace for very competitive specialties like otolaryngology (MD to DO ratio = 278:1), though this of course is partially balanced by the availability of AOA residencies. There is no real way to tell if the most competitive DO applicants are going the "sure thing" route for the top specialties via the AOA or rolling the dice with the ACGME, so its hard to make a true apples to apples comparison.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

When put that way, it is a good strategy. and thats what people defending it have told me. I counter with the odds of getting that hyper competitive residency if you don't really find yourself qualified is so low, that its not worth the extra application fees.

Everyone figures out what they want to do and no ones logic but their own matters. (not saying they're wrong. just commenting on the resoluteness of their belief)

True, when put that way it does make this strategy ineffective. However this implies that the applicant is completely uncompetitive for such residencies. But what about in the situation that the applicant has a Comlex score which is maybe in the 30th percentile or around the lower quartile of the mean? However the applicant realizes that applying to such programs solely as there are few positions and many applicants would lead to scrambling likely and applies to the programs and uses the ACGME as a back up. Such a strategy could as such prove to be effective to some extent and protects you from scrambling.

 

[CaribKid]

I think you did a fantastic job with this spreadsheet, especially considering how spread out the data can be. The only thing I would add (as a Caribbean second year at AUC) is that the US IMG match numbers from the NRMP are for all Carib schools (no matter how shady, and some really are). The three schools in the Carib with federal loans, all 50 states, etc. will have higher match rates than the 40-50% range. However, this data can be hard to come by, and I only wanted to point out how those specific NRMP numbers may be a bit skewed when looking at US IMG (not your fault while making this). Besides that, really great work, and good luck in med school!

 

[anotheremail]

For the 3rd page where you list the % of people matched for IMG. Is that just for Carib schools or all IMG(your spreadsheet does not specify)? Also, did you just collect all the carib schools data or just the top ones?

If not, I would just like to tell the new guys to take this with a grain of salt.

 

[HockeyDr09]

For the 3rd page where you list the % of people matched for IMG. Is that just for Carib schools or all IMG(your spreadsheet does not specify)? Also, did you just collect all the carib schools data or just the top ones?

If not, I would just like to tell the new guys to take this with a grain of salt.

It does specify. US IMG's is its label. Students from the US who go to medical schools outside of the US, and then try to match in the NRMP. A large majority of which are Caribbean students. If there is one thing that's missing from the data, it's attrition rates, which would hurt the US IMG's tremendously. If you want me to post my AUC vs DMUCOM argument that I have used in another two threads I can. I just didn't think it was neccesary.


HTC Evo

 

[CaribKid]

I don't think anyone is asking for an AUC vs. DO argument. My comment was only suggesting that for schools like SGU, AUC, and Ross, the match rate is not 47%. However, for ALL Caribbean schools, you used NRMP data which is completely correct. There is certainly no argument with that. And, of course, why argue DO vs. Carib? I think most Carib students would say go DO if possible, unless you just don't want a DO degree, which is simply an opinion and nothing more. Doesn't mean anyone is better or worse.

As for attrition, of course the rates will be higher. The Caribbean accepts students who probably shouldn't be in medical school, and just never get it. Thus, you will have a higher attrition rate.

All I was saying, in regards to the numbers, is that the US IMG numbers are different for the "top tier" Carib schools as compared to all other Carib schools (yeah, I put top tier in quotes, although I think AUC has given me a great education). Since this is a thread about hard facts, I just wanted to comment on that. Also, I completely agree that those numbers are hard to find (if not impossible) for specific Carib schools. All I know is what the school reports to me.

Once more, great job with the stats sheet.

 

[HockeyDr09]

I don't think anyone is asking for an AUC vs. DO argument. My comment was only suggesting that for schools like SGU, AUC, and Ross, the match rate is not 47%. However, for ALL Caribbean schools, you used NRMP data which is completely correct. There is certainly no argument with that. And, of course, why argue DO vs. Carib? I think most Carib students would say go DO if possible, unless you just don't want a DO degree, which is simply an opinion and nothing more. Doesn't mean anyone is better or worse.

As for attrition, of course the rates will be higher. The Caribbean accepts students who probably shouldn't be in medical school, and just never get it. Thus, you will have a higher attrition rate.

All I was saying, in regards to the numbers, is that the US IMG numbers are different for the "top tier" Carib schools as compared to all other Carib schools (yeah, I put top tier in quotes, although I think AUC has given me a great education). Since this is a thread about hard facts, I just wanted to comment on that. Also, I completely agree that those numbers are hard to find (if not impossible) for specific Carib schools. All I know is what the school reports to me.

Once more, great job with the stats sheet.

I had no problem with your post. You're right, the top tier Carib. schools have better match rates than the rest. I'll update the first post to mention that. My problem was with the poster below your first post who said to take the entire spreadsheet with a "grain of salt" because some schools in the Carib. are better than others and that I didn't separate data into only the top Carib. schools. I'm sure AUC gives a great education, but it still had ~50% attrition rate (I posted the data in other threads). If you made it past that, then you should have a solid chance matching. It's just a risk that should be considered.

 

[CaribKid]

Thanks for the clarification, my mistake for not reading your post correctly. You are absolutely right about the risks coming down here.

I am surprised that you quote an attrition rate of 50%, though. In my experience here, and especially in the class that I am in, the attrition rate hasn't been close to that. Now, I would say that a large chunk of students end up repeating a class, but still finish Basic Sciences, and I personally wouldn't call that "attrition", but is that what you are referring to? I am heading into my 4th semester, and I would say about 10% have dropped out completely (what I would call attrition), and would guesstimate 20-25% have/are repeating a class. Of course, I bet that is much higher when compared to US MD/DO schools, but that's what you get for accepting a somewhat lower caliber of student (although I think the gap has closed somewhat between the Carib and DO, simply stats wise. Just an opinion, I don't have hard facts to back that up). Keep in mind, the only school I can attest to is AUC since I haven't attended med school anywhere else.

I also appreciate having an open, civil conversation about this info, especially for people who are looking to make an informed decision. Too many of these threads just degenerate.

 

[Journey2become]

I also appreciate having an open, civil conversation about this info, especially for people who are looking to make an informed decision. Too many of these threads just degenerate.

+1

 

[DocEspana]

Thanks for the clarification, my mistake for not reading your post correctly. You are absolutely right about the risks coming down here.

I am surprised that you quote an attrition rate of 50%, though. In my experience here, and especially in the class that I am in, the attrition rate hasn't been close to that. Now, I would say that a large chunk of students end up repeating a class, but still finish Basic Sciences, and I personally wouldn't call that "attrition", but is that what you are referring to? I am heading into my 4th semester, and I would say about 10% have dropped out completely (what I would call attrition), and would guesstimate 20-25% have/are repeating a class. Of course, I bet that is much higher when compared to US MD/DO schools, but that's what you get for accepting a somewhat lower caliber of student (although I think the gap has closed somewhat between the Carib and DO, simply stats wise. Just an opinion, I don't have hard facts to back that up). Keep in mind, the only school I can attest to is AUC since I haven't attended med school anywhere else.

I also appreciate having an open, civil conversation about this info, especially for people who are looking to make an informed decision. Too many of these threads just degenerate.

Hockey Doc (and I for SGU) posted a measurement of enrollment vs graduating class size recently. When you say repeat a class, if you just mean a class, then its not being factored it. If you say class but mean year, then those people would fall into the numerical stat we labeled attrition even though they would likely graduate in the 5th year.

Anyway, I really like the conversation being so civil here. As a though to add onto your previous comments: the big 3/4 (depending on how much we like Saba in this conversation) do have better match rates. And I would imagine that their better match rates (and higher graduating class numbers) make up the bulk of the net total matches from the caribbean. So while the total match *rate* is only indicative of all carib schools, not specifically the most popular, I think the actual match numbers and positions are a testament to where the big four (primarily them) are matching.

Gotta assume the people at the more shady schools, even if they are smart, are probably filling up the peds and FM spots while its the main four schools that are getting all of the more competitive rotations out there that are being had.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Thanks for the clarification, my mistake for not reading your post correctly. You are absolutely right about the risks coming down here.

I am surprised that you quote an attrition rate of 50%, though. In my experience here, and especially in the class that I am in, the attrition rate hasn't been close to that. Now, I would say that a large chunk of students end up repeating a class, but still finish Basic Sciences, and I personally wouldn't call that "attrition", but is that what you are referring to? I am heading into my 4th semester, and I would say about 10% have dropped out completely (what I would call attrition), and would guesstimate 20-25% have/are repeating a class. Of course, I bet that is much higher when compared to US MD/DO schools, but that's what you get for accepting a somewhat lower caliber of student (although I think the gap has closed somewhat between the Carib and DO, simply stats wise. Just an opinion, I don't have hard facts to back that up). Keep in mind, the only school I can attest to is AUC since I haven't attended med school anywhere else.

I also appreciate having an open, civil conversation about this info, especially for people who are looking to make an informed decision. Too many of these threads just degenerate.

I agree, it's definitely nice to have a civil discussion about it. I searched AUC's website and found their match data for 2010.

American University of the Caribbean 2010 Match Data

Anesthesiology - 1
Emergency Medicine - 11
Family Practice - 46
General Surgery - 4
Internal Medicine - 59
Neurology - 3
OB/GYN - 12
Pathology - 1
Pediatrics - 16
Prelim Medicine - 9
Prelim Surgery - 6
Psychiatry Residency - 12
Radiology - 2
Traditional Year - 5
Total 187

According to their site they say that this includes people who matched outside of the NRMP, and it's over a year old, so I figured that was the most accurate list I was going to find.

The difficulty for me, was finding out exactly how many students AUC brings in a year. As far as I was aware, they have three start dates, January, May, and September. I searched around ValueMD and it seemed that most of the evidence pointed to ~340 students start a year between the 3 start dates (It actually seemed like it was probably more than that, based on posted from students there). I have no idea how many wind up taking classes over, or how many people wind up not matching on their first try. With 187 students matching out of 340 students starting, you have a 55% match rate. What I cannot definitively say however, is whether most of that is attrition rate, or students not matching. Since I've seen a few people claim AUC has a >90% match rate, I assumed that a majority of the non-matching students either failed out or dropped out, which led me to my high attrition rate claim.

Since you're a student there, you can definitely shed some light on the number of students there, although I'm not sure if you would know how many start each session.

 

[CaribKid]

Ok, cool, I see where you got the numbers from now. Well, all I can do is tell you what I know. Currently, AUC is accepting about 100ish students in May, 120ish in January, and 200ish in September. I know that in the past, those numbers were lower, particularly for the September class (I think much lower, more like 120ish). So, for those matching in 2010, they would've started in 2006, so I think around 300 would be accurate. But, it could be lower than 300. It's hard to say since the students who started did so in 2006. Usually by the 1st week you have something like 10 people either not show up, or just leave the island without really starting. It happens, I suppose.

I can tell you what I know of the current match stats for AUC. The school put on a small seminar for students to discuss match rates, and why people don't match from AUC. Here are the numbers we were told for this year:

Pre-Match: 16%
NRMP Match: 63%
Scramble: 5%
Total Match: 84%

They also said they knew of some pre-matches out there that had not yet been reported, so they believed that number to be about 90% afte those came in, which according to the school, is the same as it was in 2010. Most of those matches, of course, were primary care as you can see in your stats from above. However, for those students who worked hard, some great matches are in that list as well. It was also stated that of those who did not match, 75% of them failed Step 1 on the first attempt, so that has a lot to do with not matching from the Carib. I apologize for not having a link to these facts, which I know makes it "anecdotal", but this is what I was told by the administration, and judging from what I have heard from older students, this seems to make sense.

Judging by your math above, it is possible the number that started and did not match is 55%.....as we said, tough to say from students starting in 2006. Currently, based on my experience at the school, I don't believe it is that high now, but you would have to really look at the 2012, 2013 matches to know, which are a few years away. I do know that of the folks who took the Step last year, 94% passed on the first try, so I also think the attrition numbers are decreasing. I know one of the profs on the Adcom, and based on supply and demand, AUC has been accepting a lot better caliber undergrad student in the last couple of years. (Not to say that those who came before me weren't up to snuff, I am sure they have made excellent physicians. Only referring to undergrad performance).

The only downside to what I just wrote is it is based mostly on experience, what I have been told by the administration, and it is hard to find straight up data out there on the websites.

 

[Sinfest]

The 2010 match data from AUC includes those that took a year or more off after MS4 for whatever reason and then (re)applied to residencies for a position in 2010, correct?

Thanks for keeping a cool head CaribKid

 

[CaribKid]

Hey, thanks Sinfest, I appreciate it. I think this is one of the better, and thus more informative, conversations IMGs and DOs have had sharing information. All it does is help each other be more informed, and at the end of the day, we all just want to be peers, right?

Yeah, what you are saying is right, in fact that's exactly what the admin said. Some who matched this year were those who did not match last year. However, that tends to happen each year (and I think this is regardless of IMG, DO, MD, except the whole number is fewer due to higher match rates in general...but I could be wrong) so I think it ends up being a wash. For example, you could say in 2009 that 5 or 10 people didn't match, then re-applied in 2010.....but the same number may have done the same thing in 2009 from 2008, so it ends up being about the same match rate. However, you never know for sure. Or at least I have not been given the numbers.

If anyone else has more info about the entire situation, from another DO school or Carib school, please feel free to add to this.

 

[Journey2become]

Hey, thanks Sinfest, I appreciate it. I think this is one of the better, and thus more informative, conversations IMGs and DOs have had sharing information. All it does is help each other be more informed, and at the end of the day, we all just want to be peers, right?

Yeah, what you are saying is right, in fact that's exactly what the admin said. Some who matched this year were those who did not match last year. However, that tends to happen each year (and I think this is regardless of IMG, DO, MD, except the whole number is fewer due to higher match rates in general...but I could be wrong) so I think it ends up being a wash. For example, you could say in 2009 that 5 or 10 people didn't match, then re-applied in 2010.....but the same number may have done the same thing in 2009 from 2008, so it ends up being about the same match rate. However, you never know for sure. Or at least I have not been given the numbers.

If anyone else has more info about the entire situation, from another DO school or Carib school, please feel free to add to this.

Possible (to the bolded), but it would be important for me to know my chances of having to sit out a year (or two). Therefore it would be nice to see the data for first time apps even though the rate might not change.

your (future) peer Journey2become

 

[naus]

Poor Carib dudes... not only do they have to live in a 3rd world country for 2 years and take $30k of private loans a year, they have to stand behind the line of people who don't even have MD behind their names.

 

[Quester]

This may be a really stupid question, but what happens after you get your training in AOA residency? Are you restricted from working in certain hospitals? I'm not sure what the differences are between the two types...

 

[emericana]

This may be a really stupid question, but what happens after you get your training in AOA residency? Are you restricted from working in certain hospitals? I'm not sure what the differences are between the two types...

I am goign into podiatry and stumbled upon this thread. amazing. great work.

why is this not a sticky in this message board? great work hockey doc!

 

[DocEspana]

This may be a really stupid question, but what happens after you get your training in AOA residency? Are you restricted from working in certain hospitals? I'm not sure what the differences are between the two types...

no difference. Its viewed the same way as the SF match or the military match (though *being* in the military carries its own prestige, i mean that match itself). It's simply another option with entirely equal practicing rights at any hospital after the match. If you're good enough to get hired to, for example, bellevue it will be 99% based on your own skill and 1% based on where you came from for training.

it's only not 100% because if you came from a top ranked residency program you'll be judged for that, not totally your own skills. But thats not a ACGME or AOA thing, thats a "are you from one of the top three programs in the USA, or not" them all being ACGME programs are irrelevant since they make up a miniscule amount of the ACGME programs.

 

[gravitywave]

awesome work in this thread, you guys deserve a big pat on the back for putting this together. i especially liked the collaboration between the DOs and the IMGs in putting together a real look at Carib vs DO, in a civil fashion no less! somewhere the Fraud is fuming....

it's worth repeating again though, that until the results of the SF and Urology Matches are integrated into the data, it's going to cast aspersions on the rest of the fine work you've done here. these Matches have such a presence in tiny, competitive fields that not to include them really skews the results. it's silly to say that DOs are matching into urology at a rate 55x that of MDs.

once again though, fine job. DO > IMG, just as every reasonable person already knew

 

[HockeyDr09]

awesome work in this thread, you guys deserve a big pat on the back for putting this together. i especially liked the collaboration between the DOs and the IMGs in putting together a real look at Carib vs DO, in a civil fashion no less! somewhere the Fraud is fuming....

it's worth repeating again though, that until the results of the SF and Urology Matches are integrated into the data, it's going to cast aspersions on the rest of the fine work you've done here. these Matches have such a presence in tiny, competitive fields that not to include them really skews the results. it's silly to say that DOs are matching into urology at a rate 55x that of MDs.

once again though, fine job. DO > IMG, just as every reasonable person already knew

SF match data

Ophthalmology
Child Neurology
Plastic Surgery
Neurotology

All other match data on their site is for fellowship positions. Not exactly sure how to incorporate it though.





Found this on their vacancies for residencies, seems like it's at program by program basis.

3393 Case Western Reserve University
DESCRIPTION:
Offering a PGY-3 position to begin on 07/01/11

PREREQUISITES:
a) Graduation from a Medical School or College of Osteopathic Medicine in the United States
b) Score of 85th percentile on both USMLE Step 1 and USMLE Step 2 prior to the initiation of residency training
c) Completion of a PGY-1 year of internship or fellowship
d) Completion of PGY-2 in Ophthalmology by June 30, 2011

This position is not available for IMGs.

The CWRU program is one of the largest in the country, with a substantial clinic volume and heavy surgical experience. We provide
our18 residents with a diverse training experience within a university hospital, a VA medical center, and an urban community hospital. Our program provides exposure to the latest technology, with recent additions of a renovated surgical practice lab and a state-of-the-art surgical simulator. We value residents' exposure to an international experience with an ongoing elective rotation in India. Our resident research requirement supports our belief that research skills will pay off in life learning and enhanced fellowship opportunities.

Interested applicants please email CAS application and support Documents

Urology Match is just as vague.

Urology match stats


First post updated with links.

 

[CaribKid]

awesome work in this thread, you guys deserve a big pat on the back for putting this together. i especially liked the collaboration between the DOs and the IMGs in putting together a real look at Carib vs DO, in a civil fashion no less! somewhere the Fraud is fuming....

it's worth repeating again though, that until the results of the SF and Urology Matches are integrated into the data, it's going to cast aspersions on the rest of the fine work you've done here. these Matches have such a presence in tiny, competitive fields that not to include them really skews the results. it's silly to say that DOs are matching into urology at a rate 55x that of MDs.

once again though, fine job. DO > IMG, just as every reasonable person already knew

I agree, great thread. I would also agree that DO > IMG when looking at competitive residencies. Being in the US will certainly give you a leg up; just look at the SF Match that HockeyDr posted and his first bolded sentence. I think when it comes to mid-level competitive residencies, like EM, Gas, etc., IMGs from the larger three (four) Carib schools close the gap quite a bit, and that for hard-working students, those residencies are not a problem to obtain. Every year you will see those matches at the large, well-established Carib schools. Once you get to primary care, I would say that DO and IMG are looking roughly similiar. Feel free to let me know if anyone thinks differently, but judging from the Carib Match Lists I would say this is accurate (with the caveat that I haven't checked out many DO Match Lists). Plus, I base this solely on the larger three or four Carib schools, not the entire Carib in general.

But, will that change in the future if residency spots remain capped? Not sure, but I am thinking it will just mean a tougher road for us Carib guys, which is unfair but that's life.

 

[Beandog]

I am proud to say that you are in my class hockey doc. Well done sir. Hopefully you are in LDP. I believe you are from the upstate area too correct?! I am from Buffalo!

You too? Buffalo here also - an LECOM hopeful.

 

[HockeyDr09]

I agree, great thread. I would also agree that DO > IMG when looking at competitive residencies. Being in the US will certainly give you a leg up; just look at the SF Match that HockeyDr posted and his first bolded sentence. I think when it comes to mid-level competitive residencies, like EM, Gas, etc., IMGs from the larger three (four) Carib schools close the gap quite a bit, and that for hard-working students, those residencies are not a problem to obtain. Every year you will see those matches at the large, well-established Carib schools. Once you get to primary care, I would say that DO and IMG are looking roughly similiar. Feel free to let me know if anyone thinks differently, but judging from the Carib Match Lists I would say this is accurate (with the caveat that I haven't checked out many DO Match Lists). Plus, I base this solely on the larger three or four Carib schools, not the entire Carib in general.

But, will that change in the future if residency spots remain capped? Not sure, but I am thinking it will just mean a tougher road for us Carib guys, which is unfair but that's life.

Right now there were ~1150 unmatched NRMP seats and ~500 unmatched AOA seats, so there are definitely seats to be had. If you're going to go to the Caribbean I think it's been settled that you should go to one of the big 4. If you're motivated enough, there is no question that you can match, and if you really dominate, you might be able to find your way into a competitive specialty.

I feel like the dealbreaker between the Caribbean and DO is the AOA match. It was something I took way too lightly when I was considering my options. Now that I have all the data in front of me, it's a significant advantage. The AOA match guarantees DO's into the ultra competitive specialties. Do you still need awesome stats to get into the residencies, of course, but there will be at least 86 DO's matching ortho, because there are 86 slots only open to DO's.

As DO applicants/ people considering DO we always hear "why would you choose DO over MD when it essentially closes doors at top academic hospitals for residency options?". I can't say how factual that statement is but I can ask the same question for Caribbean MD vs DO. Why choose a Caribbean school over a DO school when you're closing the doors to every AOA residency? The data shows that Caribbean MD students have just a hard time as DO students getting into those top academic centers, so why take yourself out of the AOA match by going Caribbean MD over DO?

I never really understood the whole bashing other schools sentiment. In the end we all want to be physicians. We all want to be treated equally by each other, by patients, by licensing boards, and by residency directors. I respect Caribbean students just as much as any other medical student. We all want the same thing in the end.

 

[HockeyDr09]

You too? Buffalo here also - an LECOM hopeful.

We're taking over

 

[SFO-IST]

Three cheers for HockeyDr for creating this awesome thread.

Three more cheers for the rest of you for keeping the discussion so civil.

Awesome.

 

[CaribKid]

I was wondering about the AOA Match, since as an MD student I know next to nothing about it. What is the quality of the programs like? Since it is only open to DOs, I'd assume that those programs would fill first every year, and that the NRMP would be a 2nd choice for most DOs. But it seems that a lot of DOs go for MD programs. Is this just do to the MD programs being "better" or more "prestigious"? Or just not enough AOA to go around? As a pre-med (and now a MS2), I never knew a lot about it, and I am betting some pre-DOs out there would be interested to hear from someone who knows something about it post in this thread, since it has apparently become popular.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I was wondering about the AOA Match, since as an MD student I know next to nothing about it. What is the quality of the programs like? Since it is only open to DOs, I'd assume that those programs would fill first every year, and that the NRMP would be a 2nd choice for most DOs. But it seems that a lot of DOs go for MD programs. Is this just do to the MD programs being "better" or more "prestigious"? Or just not enough AOA to go around? As a pre-med (and now a MS2), I never knew a lot about it, and I am betting some pre-DOs out there would be interested to hear from someone who knows something about it post in this thread, since it has apparently become popular.

Main problem is that the locations are limited, 1/3 of DO residencies are in Michigan.