MD vs DO vs Caribbean. Hard Facts and Statistics

[scotchtapetest]

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Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not a DO), but I believe that DOs who complete ACGME residencies are accredited through the NBME boards (the MD pathway) and not through the AOA/osteopathic boards.

The NBME boards actually do recognize AOA-accredited medical schools, which is the only reason why DOs can participate in the regular match.


The problem isn't the ACGME or the NBME. If an MD did hypothetically complete an AOA residency, then they would need to be accredited by the osteopathic boards that oversaw his/her postgraduate education.

The problem is that there is no reciprocity with the osteopathic boards - although the NBME recognizes the DO degree and will grand board certification to a DO who completed an ACGME residency, the osteopathic boards will not do the same for an MD.

That's why MDs cannot participate in the AOA match.

This has been discussed ad nauseam on SDN.

1) NBME administers the USMLE and has nothing to do with board certification for post-graduate training (MD or DO).

2) AOA doesn't allow MDs to participate in AOA residencies because MDs don't get OMM training in medical school which is required for ALL AOA internship years (any specialty). This is irrespective of how little or how extensive the OMM component of the internship is (1hr/month vs. 1hr/day). If you are not trained in OMM, you can not complete this requirement, even if it is only for 1hr during your entire training, and therefore you can not finish internship year. (I'm not arguing for or against this policy; I'm just stating facts)!

3) DOs who complete ACGME training do have the option to become board certified by the respective AOA specialty board in ADDITION to the ABMS (MD) board by proving training equivalence and taking the exam, if they choose to do so (and many do)...

 

[Skinceutical]

1) NBME administers the USMLE and has nothing to do with board certification for post-graduate training (MD or DO).

My mistake, I meant the ABMS.

As for the rest of your post, I was specifically responding to a poster who claimed that the reason why MDs couldn't complete AOA residencies was because the ACGME wouldn't recognize their training.

 

[VA1986]

.

 

[Benalaska]

First of all, thank you HockeyDr for this data 🙂

Most of the comparison between MD and DO on this forum as a whole seems to be based on the match results, but I am also interested in students' perspectives of their medical education 'in and of itself.'

(a) Could anyone comment on the quality of basic science instruction at DO vs MD programs? When looking online at curriculums, I noticed that a few of the DO schools have lumped the science classes into one course instead of having a separate immunology, neuroanatomy, and biochemistry classes, for example. Is the level of detail the same? I am asking because I actually enjoy understanding the molecular basis of medicine, and want to keep options open in case I want to pursue research.

(b) Also, is the quality of the clinical rotations the same? As a prospective student, I want to make sure that I am getting the most out of my future medical education.

I have heard many times that DO and MD programs have identical training (except OMM), and I'm 99% convinced, but still 1% skeptical, so that is why I am asking. If this has been answered before then feel free to refer me to another topic.

 

[fletchffletch]

First of all, thank you HockeyDr for this data 🙂

Most of the comparison between MD and DO on this forum as a whole seems to be based on the match results, but I am also interested in students' perspectives of their medical education 'in and of itself.'

(a) Could anyone comment on the quality of basic science instruction at DO vs MD programs? When looking online at curriculums, I noticed that a few of the DO schools have lumped the science classes into one course instead of having a separate immunology, neuroanatomy, and biochemistry classes, for example. Is the level of detail the same? I am asking because I actually enjoy understanding the molecular basis of medicine, and want to keep options open in case I want to pursue research.

(b) Also, is the quality of the clinical rotations the same? As a prospective student, I want to make sure that I am getting the most out of my future medical education.

I have heard many times that DO and MD programs have identical training (except OMM), and I'm 99% convinced, but still 1% skeptical, so that is why I am asking. If this has been answered before then feel free to refer me to another topic.

Regarding doing research, on the front page of the pre-DO forum, "Research opportunities for DO, not DO/PhD. Is it possible?" That doesn't even involve searching.

Sorry for the snark, long week and tired of seeing questions that are easy to look up.

 

[mct2762]

this is incredible. huge thanks

 

[JimmyB123]

I have a question regarding the prospects of these statistics come the full merger 2019 or 2020.

Does this mean that there will be a bigger divide between USMD and the USDO/IMG? For now it seems that USDO matching prospects are somewhat in between USMD and IMG when it comes to allo match. With the full merger, will USDO outcomes be closer to IMG outcomes while USMD outcomes become more distinct? Sorry if this sounds ignorant I just don't know much about this!

I'll be applying for residency in 2019 so it would be sweet to know this

 

[BrooklynBulls]

I have a question regarding the prospects of these statistics come the full merger 2019 or 2020.

Does this mean that there will be a bigger divide between USMD and the USDO/IMG? For now it seems that USDO matching prospects are somewhat in between USMD and IMG when it comes to allo match. With the full merger, will USDO outcomes be closer to IMG outcomes while USMD outcomes become more distinct? Sorry if this sounds ignorant I just don't know much about this!

I'll be applying for residency in 2019 so it would be sweet to know this

Nobody can tell you for sure. But current trends are that DO's are more often seen as equals to USMD's (as compared to the decade prior), while IMG's are seen as the tier below. Whether this keeps up when IMG's become less competitive than before, I have no idea.

I have had a PD at a competitive program tell me that in the past they would have two separate lists: USMD's and DO's, and the DO list would be added to the bottom of the MD list. And then they told me they got rid of that because they've seen so many good DO's.

 

[Mad Jack]

Here's the hard facts: MD>DO>Carib. /thread

 

[Mad Jack]

This has been discussed ad nauseam on SDN.

1) NBME administers the USMLE and has nothing to do with board certification for post-graduate training (MD or DO).

2) AOA doesn't allow MDs to participate in AOA residencies because MDs don't get OMM training in medical school which is required for ALL AOA internship years (any specialty). This is irrespective of how little or how extensive the OMM component of the internship is (1hr/month vs. 1hr/day). If you are not trained in OMM, you can not complete this requirement, even if it is only for 1hr during your entire training, and therefore you can not finish internship year. (I'm not arguing for or against this policy; I'm just stating facts)!

3) DOs who complete ACGME training do have the option to become board certified by the respective AOA specialty board in ADDITION to the ABMS (MD) board by proving training equivalence and taking the exam, if they choose to do so (and many do)...

As of the merger, MDs will be able to match into DO residencies. They're still working out the specifics, but it will most likely entail some sort of condensed OMM training.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I have a question regarding the prospects of these statistics come the full merger 2019 or 2020.

Does this mean that there will be a bigger divide between USMD and the USDO/IMG? For now it seems that USDO matching prospects are somewhat in between USMD and IMG when it comes to allo match. With the full merger, will USDO outcomes be closer to IMG outcomes while USMD outcomes become more distinct? Sorry if this sounds ignorant I just don't know much about this!

I'll be applying for residency in 2019 so it would be sweet to know this

Think about it this way. Without the merger, it gives ACGME PDs all the discretion to not have any DOs in their programs at all. So this merger would be an improvement to that situation. As to how much of an improvement, only time will tell.

 

[IslandStyle808]

As of the merger, MDs will be able to match into DO residencies. They're still working out the specifics, but it will most likely entail some sort of condensed OMM training.

Just a head's up that post made by scotch was in 2012 (if you are responding as a general statement, then I apologize for the mix up).

 

[Mad Jack]

Just a head's up that post made by scotch was in 2012 (if you are responding as a general statement, then I apologize for the mix up).

Didn't realize this was a necro thread lol.

 

[AlteredScale]

I have a question regarding the prospects of these statistics come the full merger 2019 or 2020.

Does this mean that there will be a bigger divide between USMD and the USDO/IMG? For now it seems that USDO matching prospects are somewhat in between USMD and IMG when it comes to allo match. With the full merger, will USDO outcomes be closer to IMG outcomes while USMD outcomes become more distinct? Sorry if this sounds ignorant I just don't know much about this!

I'll be applying for residency in 2019 so it would be sweet to know this

I don't think so. As of right now, DO's and IMG's are considered independent applicants to ACGME. When the merger is in full effect. AOA and ACGME will be GME and US applicants will be considered DO and MD graduates while IMG will still be independent...essentially pushing them out even more.

Read this FAQ

We are in the same graduating class so I understand the anxiety in the process.

 

[JimmyB123]

I don't think so. As of right now, DO's and IMG's are considered independent applicants to ACGME. When the merger is in full effect. AOA and ACGME will be GME and US applicants will be considered DO and MD graduates while IMG will still be independent...essentially pushing them out even more.

Read this FAQ

We are in the same graduating class so I understand the anxiety in the process.

Thanks Altered! You seem to know a lot about a lot 😀

 

[AlteredScale]

Thanks Altered! You seem to know a lot about a lot 😀

You got it! Just trying my hardest to stay up to date with these drastic changes! Medical education (UME/GME/CME) has suddenly become a big interest of mine haha. Feel free to PM me if you have any other Q's and we can figure stuff out!

 

[235009]

Think about it this way. Without the merger, it gives ACGME PDs all the discretion to not have any DOs in their programs at all. So this merger would be an improvement to that situation. As to how much of an improvement, only time will tell.

This isn't going to change. PDs will still be able to lock out DOs if they want

 

[AlteredScale]

This isn't going to change. PDs will still be able to lock out DOs if they want

Agree somewhat. The merger isn't going change the perception of DO grads to the PDs of UofC or NYP.

BUT the merger is still a step in the right direction and it will lead to change.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Agree somewhat. The merger isn't going change the perception of DO grads to the PDs of UofC or NYP.

BUT the merger is still a step in the right direction and it will lead to change.

This is what I meant. I highly doubt the matching situation will get worse with the merger. In the worst case scenario things will stay the same, and in the best case matching quality will go up.

 

[Stlblues17]

I imagine the current AOA programs post merger will still have the same DO PD's? I'm sure there would be some DO programs that would still have a pro DO bias, as the opposite will also be true.

Of course all of these changes will happen while we are in school. @AlteredScale good work on keeping up on these things, so we can learn of process/changes.

DO 2019!

 

[GUH]

Agree somewhat. The merger isn't going change the perception of DO grads to the PDs of UofC or NYP.

BUT the merger is still a step in the right direction and it will lead to change.

What kind of change exactly, and how?

 

[GUH]

I imagine the current AOA programs post merger will still have the same DO PD's?

There is some speculation that AOA-trained PDs will be able to retain their positions but as of a couple of months ago, I saw the AOA President himself say that this had not been confirmed.

 

[Stlblues17]

There is some speculation that AOA-trained PDs will be able to retain their positions but as of a couple of months ago, I saw the AOA President himself say that this had not been confirmed.

Who knows. But I could only imagine, especially at DO Heavy hospitals (think of Doctor's in Columbus, OH) who have a long standing DO Only programs (and don't even allow MD students to rotate through their programs, currently) will all of the sudden be taken over and run by MDs. But again, we shall wait and see.

 

[Seth Joo]

incredible job, i'm wondering what's causing the ~14% of DO's to not match. Doing something else? Not interviewing well? Screwed up application? Hate medicine? Not enough spots in field of interest?

There are still AOA programs, a lot of people have the goal of going to ACGME allopathic programs and do not make it. Some people hesitantly settle for AOA because that is all they can get.

Still the hierarchy seems to be US MD then DO then IMG.

 

[AlteredScale]

What kind of change exactly, and how?

What kind? Reformation of COCA standards: deeper investigation for the need to expand a school to create a satellite campus instead of just an application that almost every school seems to get approved for at the yearly COCA meeting, reevaluating faculty:student ratio and creating a hard cap on the maximum class size. Things like that.

How? Who knows. I'm new to this. Medical schools are patient centered and student focused. If students are stating that there is room for change then why hasn't anything been done? Because the law of COCA hasn't been broken and therefore the student voice is silenced. So what I see is disgruntled students entering residency and eventually coming to and calling for a revaluation, which is not a bad thing.

For the record, I'm not upset either haha. Def not saying they are doing it wrong (obv these guys know what they're doing, the two leaders at my school are on the AOA and COCA!), but I'm saying there is some room for improvement based on student needs. That's all.

 

[235009]

What kind? Reformation of COCA standards: deeper investigation for the need to expand a school to create a satellite campus instead of just an application that almost every school seems to get approved for at the yearly COCA meeting, reevaluating faculty:student ratio and creating a hard cap on the maximum class size. Things like that.

How? Who knows. I'm new to this. Medical schools are patient centered and student focused. If students are stating that there is room for change then why hasn't anything been done? Because the law of COCA hasn't been broken and therefore the student voice is silenced. So what I see is disgruntled students entering residency and eventually coming to and calling for a revaluation, which is not a bad thing.

For the record, I'm not upset either haha. Def not saying they are doing it wrong (obv these guys know what they're doing, the two leaders at my school are on the AOA and COCA!), but I'm saying there is some room for improvement based on student needs. That's all.

you seem confused. why would COCA (the accrediting body for med schools) change anything because of a residency merger (probably more accurate to call it a takeover by ACGME) that it's not involved in?

 

[AlteredScale]

you seem confused. why would COCA (the accrediting body for med schools) change anything because of a residency merger (probably more accurate to call it a takeover by ACGME) that it's not involved in?

That's not what I was getting at. COCA won't do crap because of the merger. What I'm saying is that the merger is a step towards unifying and standardizing training at the GME/CME level and that sooner or later, there MAY be either a moment by DO grads (or potentially a call by LCME) to reform COCA standards so that everyone entering residency has had standardized clinical education.

 

[NurWollen]

That's not what I was getting at. COCA won't do crap because of the merger. What I'm saying is that the merger is a step towards unifying and standardizing training at the GME/CME level and that sooner or later, there MAY be either a moment by DO grads (or potentially a call by LCME) to reform COCA standards so that everyone entering residency has had standardized clinical education.

I'd say this is a fair assessment.

 

[GUH]

I don't think so. As of right now, DO's and IMG's are considered independent applicants to ACGME. When the merger is in full effect. AOA and ACGME will be GME and US applicants will be considered DO and MD graduates while IMG will still be independent...essentially pushing them out even more.

Read this FAQ

We are in the same graduating class so I understand the anxiety in the process.

Unless I missed something, nothing in the FAQ linked in that post supports the bolded statements.

 

[AlteredScale]

Unless I missed something, nothing in the FAQ linked in that post supports the bolded statements.

I wasn't using the FAQ to support the bolder statement. If the merger is meant to have a single residency body that includes DO and MD students..why would DO grads be considered independent from the process..,that wouldn't make any sense.

 

[HockeyDr09]

The neurotic in me wants to update the data.
The realist in me knows the data will be useless with the combined match.

 

[Shinobiz11]

Who knows. But I could only imagine, especially at DO Heavy hospitals (think of Doctor's in Columbus, OH) who have a long standing DO Only programs (and don't even allow MD students to rotate through their programs, currently) will all of the sudden be taken over and run by MDs. But again, we shall wait and see.

Why would MD students rotate at an AOA program they can't match at?

Just because they are merging, doesn't mean PD's are getting fired. Also, don't residencies have the ability to say "we want someone with OMM training" (i.e. DO students) to weed out applicants? I'm sure PD's will be happy to receive students from either side, as long as they are competent. However i guarantee bias will still exist.

 

[Stlblues17]

Why would MD students rotate at an AOA program they can't match at?

Just because they are merging, doesn't mean PD's are getting fired. Also, don't residencies have the ability to say "we want someone with OMM training" (i.e. DO students) to weed out applicants? I'm sure PD's will be happy to receive students from either side, as long as they are competent. However i guarantee bias will still exist.

I imagine when the merger happens they'll be able to rotate there (MD students). I agree that the PDs will most likely continue to run the programs, and have whatever bias' they have (pro DO bias at the mentioned programs is a possibility).

I was trying to address another comment that seemed to suggest that once the merger happens, all of the competitive DO programs will be so over run with MDs, that we won't have any opportunities in competitive fields. This I don't buy.

 

[Shinobiz11]

I imagine when the merger happens they'll be able to rotate there (MD students). I agree that the PDs will most likely continue to run the programs, and have whatever bias' they have (pro DO bias at the mentioned programs is a possibility).

I was trying to address another comment that seemed to suggest that once the merger happens, all of the competitive DO programs will be so over run with MDs, that we won't have any opportunities in competitive fields. This I don't buy.

I can only see this happening with the super competitive residencies, more spots to apply for = higher chance of matching

 

[Stlblues17]

I can only see this happening with the super competitive residencies, more spots to apply for = higher chance of matching

Agreed. Just sometimes reading SDN, one could almost think that as a DO, your relegated to working at a CVS minute clinic and pushing herbal supplements (hyperbole, but you get what I'm saying).

 

[Shinobiz11]

Agreed. Just sometimes reading SDN, one could almost think that as a DO, your relegated to working at a CVS minute clinic and pushing herbal supplements (hyperbole, but you get what I'm saying).

Lol right after I complete my family medicine residency in the middle of Montana, I'll stop advocating vaccine use and rely on the Mr. Miyagi powers of my hands.

 

[Stlblues17]

Lol right after I complete my family medicine residency in the middle of Montana, I'll stop advocating vaccine use and rely on the Mr. Miyagi powers of my hands.

Lol and that's as good as it got premerger. Just imagine when the MDs take all the Montana residencies, we'll have to go to Idaho.

 

[hallowmann]

The neurotic in me wants to update the data.
The realist in me knows the data will be useless with the combined match.

I was thinking this exact same thing.

 

[Shinobiz11]

Lol and that's as good as it got premerger. Just imagine when the MDs take all the Montana residencies, we'll have to go to Idaho.

Or worse, Ohio.

 

[SLC]

Or worse, Ohio.

I'm glad I'm matching now. Idaho and Ohio...yikes.

At least you didn't mention Indiana.

 

[Seth Joo]

Nobody can tell you for sure. But current trends are that DO's are more often seen as equals to USMD's (as compared to the decade prior), while IMG's are seen as the tier below. Whether this keeps up when IMG's become less competitive than before, I have no idea.

I have had a PD at a competitive program tell me that in the past they would have two separate lists: USMD's and DO's, and the DO list would be added to the bottom of the MD list. And then they told me they got rid of that because they've seen so many good DO's.

It depends upon the MD, MDs from certain countries are looked upon favorably and more so than DOs like MDs from Canada, Ireland, England, Australia, some Western European countries. I had a friend who looked down upon the DO degree so much he went to Ireland to get the MD after two unsuccessful attempts to get into MD schools, and this guy had a 3.7 GPA and a 35 MCAT and had a degree from Duke but still could not get into Allopathic schools, however, he did fabulously well in the match process when he came back to the states, and is an attending at a big academic program that does not take DOs, not even from the better programs.

Its not that simple, if you are talking about DOs vs MDs from the Carribbean and developing countries, well of course DOs are going to have a much easier time, but MDs from English speaking countries are seen as novelties by PDs in many cases. I remember that episode of David Letterman where they had a bunch of guys from England, and everyone assumed they were rich and smart just because of their accents. LOL.

If I am not mistaken all the medical schools in Canada are LCME accredited so they are on the same level as any MD school in the US. I have Canadians in my class at AZCOM and many say they are here because they could not get a seat in Canada.

 

[s5260205]

It depends upon the MD, MDs from certain countries are looked upon favorably and more so than DOs like MDs from Canada, Ireland, England, Australia, some Western European countries. I had a friend who looked down upon the DO degree so much he went to Ireland to get the MD after two unsuccessful attempts to get into MD schools, and this guy had a 3.7 GPA and a 35 MCAT and had a degree from Duke but still could not get into Allopathic schools, however, he did fabulously well in the match process when he came back to the states, and is an attending at a big academic program that does not take DOs, not even from the better programs.

Its not that simple, if you are talking about DOs vs MDs from the Carribbean and developing countries, well of course DOs are going to have a much easier time, but MDs from English speaking countries are seen as novelties by PDs in many cases. I remember that episode of David Letterman where they had a bunch of guys from England, and everyone assumed they were rich and smart just because of their accents. LOL.

If I am not mistaken all the medical schools in Canada are LCME accredited so they are on the same level as any MD school in the US. I have Canadians in my class at AZCOM and many say they are here because they could not get a seat in Canada.

While Canadian medical schools are definitely on par with top programs in US and graduates are considered AMG, I doubt schools in other Commonwealth countries are better than DO schools in matching US residency, for the simple fact that graduates from these foreign schools are IMGs and students from these schools usually have less clinical experience in US (as compared to Caribbean graduates who spent 2 full years in US). Your friend is likely a rare case of successful IMGs and certainly does not represent the typical IMGs.

 

[Seth Joo]

While Canadian medical schools are definitely on par with top programs in US and graduates are considered AMG, I doubt schools in other Commonwealth countries are better than DO schools in matching US residency, for the simple fact that graduates from these foreign schools are IMGs and students from these schools usually have less clinical experience in US (as compared to Caribbean graduates who spent 2 full years in US). Your friend is likely a rare case of successful IMGs and certainly does not represent the typical IMGs.

Not true at all, also the number of people who go to schools in Ireland, England, and Australia are very small compared to DO schools. Many academic PDs look upon graduates of those schools very highly and yes they get into programs that shun DOs.

As I said before the number of people who go to such programs is very small but when they match, they match into some into some impressive programs but the data is very anectdotal and many of the students are already impressive anyway, as I said the student who went to Ireland had excellent grades and MCATs but for whatever reason did not get into an Allopathic medical school.

Canadian MDs definitely beat DOs when it comes to matching since they are LCME schools.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

Its not that simple, if you are talking about DOs vs MDs from the Carribbean and developing countries, well of course DOs are going to have a much easier time, but MDs from English speaking countries are seen as novelties by PDs in many cases. I remember that episode of David Letterman where they had a bunch of guys from England, and everyone assumed they were rich and smart just because of their accents. LOL.

Are you serious about PDs seeing FMGs as novelties? I've never read about that here on SDN.

 

[s5260205]

Not true at all, also the number of people who go to schools in Ireland, England, and Australia are very small compared to DO schools. Many academic PDs look upon graduates of those schools very highly and yes they get into programs that shun DOs.

As I said before the number of people who go to such programs is very small but when they match, they match into some into some impressive programs but the data is very anectdotal and many of the students are already impressive anyway, as I said the student who went to Ireland had excellent grades and MCATs but for whatever reason did not get into an Allopathic medical school.

Canadian MDs definitely beat DOs when it comes to matching since they are LCME schools.

Australian and Irish schools are known to have much lower matriculant stats for international students (below stats for most DO schools) than their domestic students. There is a very big financial drive for recruiting international students since the international tuition fee are so much higher. Let's agree to disagree, but students from these foreign schools are still IMGs and are unlikely to be viewed favourably by most programs.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Australian and Irish schools are known to have much lower matriculant stats for international students (below stats for most DO schools) than their domestic students. There is a very big financial drive for recruiting international students since the international tuition fee are so much higher. Let's agree to disagree, but students from these foreign schools are still IMGs and are unlikely to be viewed favourably by most programs.

Hopkins IM (one of the most competitive programs to match into) had 3 irish grads in the last few years. People from the UK are seen very faborably as are people from Australia, Germany, France. They are not seen as FMGs or IMGs like those from Indian/pakistani/carribean schools.

 

[user3]

Hopkins IM (one of the most competitive programs to match into) had 3 irish grads in the last few years. People from the UK are seen very faborably as are people from Australia, Germany, France. They are not seen as FMGs or IMGs like those from Indian/pakistani/carribean schools.

Is it better to be a graduate of the Israel schools like Sackler than D.O.?

 

[BrooklynBulls]

It depends upon the MD, MDs from certain countries are looked upon favorably and more so than DOs like MDs from Canada, Ireland, England, Australia, some Western European countries. I had a friend who looked down upon the DO degree so much he went to Ireland to get the MD after two unsuccessful attempts to get into MD schools, and this guy had a 3.7 GPA and a 35 MCAT and had a degree from Duke but still could not get into Allopathic schools, however, he did fabulously well in the match process when he came back to the states, and is an attending at a big academic program that does not take DOs, not even from the better programs.

Its not that simple, if you are talking about DOs vs MDs from the Carribbean and developing countries, well of course DOs are going to have a much easier time, but MDs from English speaking countries are seen as novelties by PDs in many cases. I remember that episode of David Letterman where they had a bunch of guys from England, and everyone assumed they were rich and smart just because of their accents. LOL.

If I am not mistaken all the medical schools in Canada are LCME accredited so they are on the same level as any MD school in the US. I have Canadians in my class at AZCOM and many say they are here because they could not get a seat in Canada.

Why speak in generalities and anecdotes when there is hard data available? From 2013 charting outcomes, we can see that 90/119 (76%) Israeli USIMGs matched, 46/125 Polish USIMGs matched (37%), 40/71 (56%) German IMGs matched, 46/66 (70%) Irish IMGs matched. Now this does not include several countries like Canada, England and France, but it is is still pretty indicative of an overall trend; these places fare better than some others, but if you're a US resident, and you can get into a DO school, not only are you more likely to match, you'll pay less money and relocate in a less dramatic way. It's pretty clearly going to be the preferable choice.

It's certainly possible that some countries match better as a percentage, but these countres had LESS THAN 50 applicants in 2013. For one reason or another, they don't seem to enter the US match very often. Maybe because their own training programs are more preferable, or they prefer the countries they went to school in. But it is equally possible that they don't think they'll GET a residency in the US, and hence don't apply.

 

[Seth Joo]

Why speak in generalities and anecdotes when there is hard data available? From 2013 charting outcomes, we can see that 90/119 (76%) Israeli USIMGs matched, 46/125 Polish USIMGs matched (37%), 40/71 (56%) German IMGs matched, 46/66 (70%) Irish IMGs matched. Now this does not include several countries like Canada, England and France, but it is is still pretty indicative of an overall trend; these places fare better than some others, but if you're a US resident, and you can get into a DO school, not only are you more likely to match, you'll pay less money and relocate in a less dramatic way. It's pretty clearly going to be the preferable choice.

It's certainly possible that some countries match better as a percentage, but these countres had LESS THAN 50 applicants in 2013. For one reason or another, they don't seem to enter the US match very often. Maybe because their own training programs are more preferable, or they prefer the countries they went to school in. But it is equally possible that they don't think they'll GET a residency in the US, and hence don't apply.

Some of these countries also provide work opportunities for their graduates like Australia. So there is little incentive to come back to the US or Canada. A friend of mine who was studying with me for the MCAT went to a program in Australia, thought about going back to the States, but then settled down over there, not my thing, but it happens quite a bit. He still was able to get a residency in the US but decided to stay in Australia, he explained that its actually tough to get a residency in Australia as a US citizen even if you got a degree from an Australian medical school.

That being said the numbers of Americans going to schools in countries like England, Australia, Ireland, are tiny.

Polish medical schools I would classify with Caribbean schools and those in third world countries, they are not as good as schools in England, Australia, and Ireland.

Also you were pointing out numbers for IMGs from Germany and Ireland whom I assume are not US citizens or green card holders, that presents a major bureaucratic hurdle in itself, most US schools cannot enroll non US citizens, either MD or DO.

 

[hse]

there never was, and there never will be, any serious impediment for people with pubs from a top school in western europe and japan, esp. at research centers