MD VS DO

[trapdr]

Hi, I know this was probably addressed before here and there. But I really haven't found answers that are clear.

What's the difference between MD and DO? If you have the time to go into details please do. I was only recently introduced to the idea of DO schools so I know almost nothing about them. I don't want to sound uneducated so I'd appreciate any info you guys have to share. I know DO schools are slightly easier (for lack of a better word) to get into.

Also, I think I would like to specialize/go into surgery if I ever make it into med school. Is that possible at MD and DO schools?

Thanks!

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[rilte4]

Hi, I know this was probably addressed before here and there.

Here, there, everywhere

(www.aacom.org is a good place to start)

 

[Ad2b]

1st, I would not say DO schools are "easier" to get into and "stay in" ... they are rigorous and require the same classes as the allo.

2nd, COMLEX is similar to USMLE (DO v MD)

3rd, DO is more holistic than allo...

I'm allo only but go to a DO (or did until the rat-ba... move away... damn him anyway )

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Hi, I know this was probably addressed before here and there. But I really haven't found answers that are clear.

What's the difference between MD and DO? If you have the time to go into details please do. I was only recently introduced to the idea of DO schools so I know almost nothing about them. I don't want to sound uneducated so I'd appreciate any info you guys have to share. I know DO schools are slightly easier (for lack of a better word) to get into.

Also, I think I would like to specialize/go into surgery if I ever make it into med school. Is that possible at MD and DO schools?

Thanks!

I'm an osteopathic medical student. MD's and DO's are the same thing. Just like Dentists are DDS and DMD.

The only difference is that DO's take an additional class on osteopathic manipulation and our boards are different to include that class.

You can be a surgeon from either type of medical school. However, you grades will need to be higher from a DO school because they aren't as prestigious and therefore don't have as good hospital affiliations (in general) in your last two years of medical school. Therefore the people who decide who to take into their residency programs favor MD students at american schools.

Please use the search function and actively look. It has been talked about a million times. It isn't very hard to find this answer.

 

[Lawpy]

MD and DO schools follow essentially the same curriculum and train you to become competent and successful physicians. There are some reasons why a US MD degree is better than a US DO degree, but it's a moot point because you will end up as a qualified physician either way.

I recommend checking out the pre-osteo/osteo forums for more information. Also, @Goro is your best friend (he's everyone's best friend because he is awesome ). He knows a lot about DO schools and the application process (he's a DO adcom) so he will help alleviate your concerns. But don't spam him since he's busy

Oh yeah, and inb4 some resident/attending hops in here and bashes the profession. Ignore them

 

[WedgeDawg]

There are more threads on this than hydrogen atoms in the Milky Way, but here's as comprehensive and unbiased an answer as I can give you.

DO is a degree for osteopathic medicine and is functionally equivalent in terms of scope of practice and licensing to an MD degree. DO schools are generally newer than MD schools and are less likely to be affiliated with large academic medical centers. This means less access to research and connections in more research heavy-fields, as well as home departments for these fields. DOs currently have their own residency match (AOA match) that is representative of all specialties, but by the time you are matching, DO and MD residencies will be merged - the effects of this merger have been speculated about on plenty of other threads, so I will not go into that here. DOs can match into MD (ACGME) residencies if they take Step 1 in addition to the COMLEX, but they will still be at a disadvantaged compared to MDs with similar profiles.

DOs can theoretically match into any specialty that MDs can, but in practice they are more limited due to anti-DO bias that exists at many academic medical centers, especially within certain specialties. One of the reasons this bias exists is because clinical rotations are not standardized in quality across DO schools, so program directors may be hesitant to take students from a school that may not be a known quality. However, many community and non-top tier academic programs are still readily accessible to DOs in most specialties.

DOs have an added curricular component called OMM, a practice with questionable scientific evidence, though it is not something that you devote the majority of your learning time to. As some might put it, it's just another "tool in the box".

More DOs go into primary care than MDs. According to wikipedia, about 2/3s of all DO graduates go into a primary care field while 1/3 of all MDs do. This gap is probably even bigger because MDs are more likely than DOs to match to academic medical centers and thus have more opportunities to specialize, likely cutting the number of MDs that go into true primary care by 33-50%.

The tradeoff is that DO schools have generally less competitive MCAT/GPA/research profiles than their MD counterparts and have a policy called grade replacement where they only count the more recent of two grades for the same class, whereas MD admissions count both equally. This allows people with a less than stellar academic record to have a chance at redemption. Additionally, the median DO school MCAT is around a 27 while the median MD MCAT is around a 31, so there's a bit more leeway there too. However, this gap has been closing in recent years.

In terms of matching difficulty for DOs, here is generally what I have observed (people more familiar with this process, please correct me):

Easy: pediatrics, internal medicine, pathology, family medicine, PM&R, psychiatry

Medium: OBGYN, emergency medicine, anesthesiology, neurology

Hard: general surgery, radiology

Extremely hard (do not at all count on matching into these as a DO): neurosurgery, plastic surgery, orthopedic surgery, ENT, ophthalmology, dermatology, radiation oncology, urology

That's about it I think. People more familiar with DO schools, please correct any mistakes!

 

[WedgeDawg]

3rd, DO is more holistic than allo...

This isn't true

 

[Ad2b]

@WedgeDawg - splitting hairs... it is true - that's my perception... and many others.

Also, DO is not as accepted internationally... meaning you have to have a sponsoring organization to practice medicine in that particular country. If that is of interest, you can check the WHO site to see which countries auto-accept DO licensing and which do not, or which require some other sponsorship. (I think it's the WHO site... someone else with far more knowledge will chime in).

 

[WedgeDawg]

@WedgeDawg - splitting hairs... it is true - that's my perception... and many others.

May I ask why you think this?

 

[Lawpy]

There are more threads on this than hydrogen atoms in the Milky Way, but here's as comprehensive and unbiased an answer as I can give you.

DO is a degree for osteopathic medicine and is functionally equivalent in terms of scope of practice and licensing to an MD degree. DO schools are generally newer than MD schools and are less likely to be affiliated with large academic medical centers. This means less access to research and connections in more research heavy-fields, as well as home departments for these fields. DOs currently have their own residency match (AOA match) that is representative of all specialties, but by the time you are matching, DO and MD residencies will be merged - the effects of this merger have been speculated about on plenty of other threads, so I will not go into that here. DOs can match into MD (ACGME) residencies if they take Step 1 in addition to the COMLEX, but they will still be at a disadvantaged compared to MDs with similar profiles.

DOs can theoretically match into any specialty that MDs can, but in practice they are more limited due to anti-DO bias that exists at many academic medical centers, especially within certain specialties. One of the reasons this bias exists is because clinical rotations are not standardized in quality across DO schools, so program directors may be hesitant to take students from a school that may not be a known quality. However, many community and non-top tier academic programs are still readily accessible to DOs in most specialties.

DOs have an added curricular component called OMM, a practice with questionable scientific evidence, though it is not something that you devote the majority of your learning time to. As some might put it, it's just another "tool in the box".

More DOs go into primary care than MDs. According to wikipedia, about 2/3s of all DO graduates go into a primary care field while 1/3 of all MDs do. This gap is probably even bigger because MDs are more likely than DOs to match to academic medical centers and thus have more opportunities to specialize, likely cutting the number of MDs that go into true primary care by 33-50%.

The tradeoff is that DO schools have generally less competitive MCAT/GPA/research profiles than their MD counterparts and have a policy called grade replacement where they only count the more recent of two grades for the same class, whereas MD admissions count both equally. This allows people with a less than stellar academic record to have a chance at redemption. Additionally, the median DO school MCAT is around a 27 while the median MD MCAT is around a 31, so there's a bit more leeway there too. However, this gap has been closing in recent years.

In terms of matching difficulty for DOs, here is generally what I have observed (people more familiar with this process, please correct me):

Easy: pediatrics, internal medicine, pathology, family medicine, PM&R, psychiatry

Medium: OBGYN, emergency medicine, anesthesiology, neurology

Hard: general surgery, radiology

Extremely hard (do not at all count on matching into these as a DO): neurosurgery, plastic surgery, orthopedic surgery, ENT, ophthalmology, dermatology, radiation oncology, urology

That's about it I think. People more familiar with DO schools, please correct any mistakes!

Moderators, please sticky!

Oh wait....

 

[Ad2b]

@WedgeDawg - based on talking to DO students and my own DO; based on reading forums for non-trads for about 10 years; based upon reading comments on this and other forums re: DOs and of course, growing up with MDs.

I am allo only. BUT I was curious to see how the schools were different so I talked to a lot of people (10+); I read about the international thing and that was the issue for me...

There is a trade off between the more holistic and allo view (which, to me, can also be person dependent in an allo program). FMP, my DO would listen and ask questions that seemed unrelated to get to a diagnosis (back pain, no blood in urine, no .. yada yada) but he did not know the contraindications of a very normal medication (which was bad for me to take with something else). My MDs (all of them) have been very, very symptom focused and not anything else. The MD treated my symptoms, the DO treated the patient as a whole.

Again, that could be person dependent but ... I've only had one DO and a plethora of MDs.

Also, any new physician could choose to be more holistic integrating that with the allo program (that's how I'd like to be as a physician in my rose-colored glasses).

If there were a school that offered the best of DO with the best of MD, I'd sign up for that because I believe neither is perfect and both have tremendous teaching capability.

 

[WedgeDawg]

@WedgeDawg - based on talking to DO students and my own DO; based on reading forums for non-trads for about 10 years; based upon reading comments on this and other forums re: DOs and of course, growing up with MDs.

I am allo only. BUT I was curious to see how the schools were different so I talked to a lot of people (10+); I read about the international thing and that was the issue for me...

There is a trade off between the more holistic and allo view (which, to me, can also be person dependent in an allo program). FMP, my DO would listen and ask questions that seemed unrelated to get to a diagnosis (back pain, no blood in urine, no .. yada yada) but he did not know the contraindications of a very normal medication (which was bad for me to take with something else). My MDs (all of them) have been very, very symptom focused and not anything else. The MD treated my symptoms, the DO treated the patient as a whole.

Again, that could be person dependent but ... I've only had one DO and a plethora of MDs.

Also, any new physician could choose to be more holistic integrating that with the allo program (that's how I'd like to be as a physician in my rose-colored glasses).

If there were a school that offered the best of DO with the best of MD, I'd sign up for that because I believe neither is perfect and both have tremendous teaching capability.

Do you think there may not have been a control for specialty?

Additionally, I don't know how MD education used to be, but currently at many allopathic medical schools, one of the core classes is focused on treating the patient as a person rather just as as collection of symptoms or organ systems. This may be a vestige of the older generation of MDs who may not have had this training. It could also be isolated differences due to a small sample size, I don't know. I think this is a sentiment I see a lot here but I haven't personally seen any evidence that it's true. I've had and worked with MDs that are very patient centric and I've had and worked with MDs that are very disease centric (my experience with DOs is far more limited). I don't want to start a long argument about this with you because I suspect neither of us will change our opinions, but I might caution you that certain generalizations like that might not be applicable to the vast majority of people within a field. Then again, they might, who knows? It's just not something I've seen real evidence of.

 

[xerei]

There is a trade off between the more holistic and allo view (which, to me, can also be person dependent in an allo program). FMP, my DO would listen and [B]ask questions that seemed unrelated to get to a diagnosis (back pain, no blood in urine[/B], no .. yada yada) [B]but[/B] he did not know the contraindications of a very normal medication (which was bad for me to take with something else). [B]My MDs (all of them) have been very, very symptom focused[/B] and not anything else.

Back pain and blood in urine are [B]symptoms[/B], so how is that different than what you describe as the MD approach?

 

[piii]

[B]If there were a school that offered the best of DO with the best of MD, I'd sign up for that [/B]because I believe neither is perfect and both have tremendous teaching capability.

Yeah there are schools like this. They're called allopathic schools.

There is not different these days. "Holistic view of the patient" is integrated into like every clinical medicine course at every MD school.

 

[Psai]

1st, I would not say DO schools are "easier" to get into and "stay in" ... they are rigorous and require the same classes as the allo.

2nd, COMLEX is similar to USMLE (DO v MD)

3rd, DO is more holistic than allo...

I'm allo only but go to a DO (or did until the rat-ba... move away... damn him anyway )

Wrong on every count. Do is easier, comlex is not similar to usmle and holistic is generally code for don't know much

 

[Mad Jack]

@WedgeDawg - splitting hairs... it is true - that's my perception... and many others.

That's great but it's wrong.

 

[deleted407021]

Wrong on every count. Do is easier, comlex is not similar to usmle and holistic is generally code for don't know much

 

[22031 Alum]

my DO would listen and ask questions that seemed unrelated to get to a diagnosis (back pain, no blood in urine, no .. yada yada)

First, I'll second whoever said that these are SYMPTOMS being asked about, and nothing that an MD wouldn't do as well. It's certainly not some mystical holistic approach.

Second, I'm confused. If you are meaning to imply that asking about hematuria seems unrelated to back pain, then that's more a sign of your not knowing medicine yet than your doctor being holistic.

 

[jqueb29]

when i go to an MD he always just sez tell me your symptoms but if i go to a DO he spends an hour asking me how my day has been and if i have any big plans for the weekend and whatcha think about that new Star War movie

 

[Psai]

Don't take it from me, ask any upper level do student or resident. Great rebuttal by the way, very eloquent

 

[deleted407021]

Don't take it from me, ask any upper level do student or resident. Great rebuttal by the way, very eloquent

Very eloquent post, as well. "Don't know much" without punctuation, was it?
How is DO easier, how is the board exam so different as to not even be similar and how is an holistic approach (holistic = biopsychosocial approach, essentially) somehow indicative of a lack of knowledge? You seem to me to be doing nothing but unnecessarily and inappropriately Interwebz bashing a large chunk of the medical profession. You get called out in Allo all the time, so don't think you can come over here and act like a jerk and not get a similar treatment.

 

[Lawpy]

Very eloquent post, as well. "Don't know much" without punctuation, was it?
How is DO easier, how is the board exam so different as to not even be similar and how is an holistic approach (holistic = biopsychosocial approach, essentially) somehow indicative of a lack of knowledge? You seem to me to be doing nothing but unnecessarily and inappropriately Interwebz bashing a large chunk of the medical profession. You get called out in Allo all the time, so don't think you can come over here and act like a jerk and not get a similar treatment.

The question lies as to what unique benefits do DO schools provide, and if there are any, what stops MD schools from using them.

I dont see how COMLEX is remotely close to useful when essentially all PDs rely heavily on USMLE scores. Even if COMLEX somehow had a purpose that matched USMLE, it is still a redundant exam in the end.

 

[Psai]

Very eloquent post, as well. "Don't know much" without punctuation, was it?
How is DO easier, how is the board exam so different as to not even be similar and how is an holistic approach (holistic = biopsychosocial approach, essentially) somehow indicative of a lack of knowledge? You seem to me to be doing nothing but unnecessarily and inappropriately Interwebz bashing a large chunk of the medical profession. You get called out in Allo all the time, so don't think you can come over here and act like a jerk and not get a similar treatment.

DO schools have people matriculating with lower gpas despite grade replacement and lower mcat scores. No one argues this fact, not sure why it is news to you. I don't know anything about the comlex, all I know is what DOs tell me and they invariably call it a waste of time with much more poorly written questions. They have to study for the usmle separately. This tells me that it is different and not similar. And holistic is what people say when they don't match up. There is no such thing as holistic; it is nothing more than touchy feely crap that people say to make them feel better about their education and training. I've noted the clear anti-DO bias through the interview trail as well. You can verify this with any 4th year DO student or graduate. Sorry that I hurt your feelings premed but this is reality and there are no sunshines and rainbows to make you feel better

 

[deleted407021]

DO schools have people matriculating with lower gpas despite grade replacement and lower mcat scores. No one argues this fact, not sure why it is news to you. I don't know anything about the comlex, all I know is what DOs tell me and they invariably call it a waste of time with much more poorly written questions. They have to study for the usmle separately. This tells me that it is different and not similar. And holistic is what people say when they don't match up. There is no such thing as holistic; it is nothing more than touchy feely crap that people say to make them feel better about their education and training. I've noted the clear anti-DO bias through the interview trail as well. You can verify this with any 4th year DO student or graduate. Sorry that I hurt your feelings premed but this is reality and there are no sunshines and rainbows to make you feel better

Lower incoming GPAs and MCAT scores are not a function of the selectivity of the programs but are instead dependent on who is applying. A handful of DO schools have higher average matriculant grades than some allopathic programs. This says nothing about the difficulty of a DO school versus an MD one. Anyone you ask who's a med student -- working toward either degree -- will tell you how difficult their pre-clinical and clinical coursework is. To pretend that DO schools are easier because their average matriculant MCAT is 28 instead of 31 or whatever, is ridiculous.

I'm aware of the problems with the COMLEX. I've read several threads about it. You're still not giving me a reason to think they aren't similar in any way, as you suggested earlier. The COMLEX tests OMM. Many people appear to study for the USMLE, take it, cover OMM material, then take the osteopathic exam. This makes me think the opposite of your presumption.

Look up biopsychosocial model. Read about it. While holistic is a hokey term to many, the two concepts are essentially synonymous, especially in a contemporary context. I don't see why a reasonable person would feel the need to espouse something every med student learns in order to make themselves feel better. Do you really need to apply such a negative opinion so broadly, then?

 

[WedgeDawg]

@J Senpai

DO doesn't have a monopoly on biopsychosocial stuff. MDs get exposure to that too.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Look up biopsychosocial model. Read about it. While holistic is a hokey term to many, the two concepts are essentially synonymous, especially in a contemporary context. I don't see why a reasonable person would feel the need to espouse something every med student learns in order to make themselves feel better. Do you really need to apply such a negative opinion so broadly, then?

The problem with the whole "holistic" thing is that when DO acolytes use it, they are using it as a form of anti-intellectualism.

It is used in the derogatory to tear down their MD counterparts. Just look at the other thread where it was stated that MD students are "aggressive" and DO students are "humble".

It's ego defense at its finest. They "chose" DO schools in the same way that I "chose" not to play QB in the NFL, but then they feel the need to convince themselves and others that their "choice" was really superior all along.

 

[Psai]

Lower incoming GPAs and MCAT scores are not a function of the selectivity of the programs but are instead dependent on who is applying. A handful of DO schools have higher average matriculant grades than some allopathic programs. This says nothing about the difficulty of a DO school versus an MD one. Anyone you ask who's a med student -- working toward either degree -- will tell you how difficult their pre-clinical and clinical coursework is. To pretend that DO schools are easier because their average matriculant MCAT is 28 instead of 31 or whatever, is ridiculous.

I'm aware of the problems with the COMLEX. I've read several threads about it. You're still not giving me a reason to think they aren't similar in any way, as you suggested earlier. The COMLEX tests OMM. Many people appear to study for the USMLE, take it, cover OMM material, then take the osteopathic exam. This makes me think the opposite of your presumption.

Look up biopsychosocial model. Read about it. While holistic is a hokey term to many, the two concepts are essentially synonymous, especially in a contemporary context. I don't see why a reasonable person would feel the need to espouse something every med student learns in order to make themselves feel better. Do you really need to apply such a negative opinion so broadly, then?

I'd like some proof that any do school has higher matriculant grades than allo programs. I didn't mention anything about the ease of schools, I haven't done do school. In any case, that was a side note made by the post I was replying to as a justification for lower standards. Concerning comlex and step 1, feel free to take them and let me know because frankly I don't care. The only thing that matters for residency is step 1 and many dos take it. No MD will take comlex ever so it's not relevant. And everyone uses the "biopsychosocial" model. Allopathic schools just don't need to advertise it as a talking point as if it's a justification for anything

 

[Goro]

This is why I regularly follow SS. Blunt like a surgeon, but spot on as needed (unlike a few other SDNers who seem to have a mission to piss on the profession).

Our MD colleagues are rightly offended by the "DO are holistic and MDs aren't" meme. I want to start seeing evidence when people throw out the meme. It may have been true 100 years ago, but I don't think it's true now. Rather I think that there's a spectrum of how one approaches the practice of Medicine, and DOs and MD and very large overlaps.

Here's the important point, whether you go to an MD school or a DO school, you get to be a doctor. What kind of doctor? That's on you. As a DO student, you'll have to work harder than the average MD student to land a competitive residency. But you're not afraid of working hard, are you?

I'll disagree with SS on one thing, sort of. My school (and I suspect that CCOM and its ilk are seeing the same) are getting more and more MD caliber students who could have gone to an MD school, but decided to stay local. How do I know this? Anonymous student surveys at graduation, when there's no need for ego defence or impressing of peers.

As I have pointed out before, American medical education has always been evolving. In time, the difference between the two doctrines of practice will be the same as that of Physician and Surgeon (a distinction that vestigially lives on in the name of Columbia's med school, or the use of Mr for surgeon in England, vs Dr.)

Now the rest of you, knock off the pissing contest, or I'll sick the 'Dawg on you!

The problem with the whole "holistic" thing is that when DO acolytes use it, they are using it as a form of anti-intellectualism.

It is used in the derogatory to tear down their MD counterparts. Just look at the other thread where it was stated that MD students are "aggressive" and DO students are "humble".

It's ego defense at its finest. They "chose" DO schools in the same way that I "chose" not to play QB in the NFL, but then they feel the need to convince themselves and others that their "choice" was really superior all along.

 

[Lawpy]

@J Senpai and @Goro what happens if a DO student excels in USMLE but marginally passes the COMLEX?

@J Senpai

DO doesn't have a monopoly on biopsychosocial stuff. MDs get exposure to that too.

But DOs have to be different in some way right?

 

[deleted407021]

@J Senpai

DO doesn't have a monopoly on biopsychosocial stuff. MDs get exposure to that too.

That's true and I'm not insinuating the opposite.

 

[Dr. Death]

DOs are fake doctors whose admissions are joke and can only practice in the US

Oh darn I was hoping to move to a foreign country and practice as a DO. . . guess I'll have to train in whatever foreign country I want to practice in.

 

[Dr. Death]

I'd like some proof that any do school has higher matriculant grades than allo programs. I didn't mention anything about the ease of schools, I haven't done do school. In any case, that was a side note made by the post I was replying to as a justification for lower standards. Concerning comlex and step 1, feel free to take them and let me know because frankly I don't care. The only thing that matters for residency is step 1 and many dos take it. No MD will take comlex ever so it's not relevant. And everyone uses the "biopsychosocial" model. Allopathic schools just don't need to advertise it as a talking point as if it's a justification for anything

CCOM and AZCOM and DMU have high stats 3.6+ and 30+ averages. I don't have the MSAR anymore but I remember a bunch of state schools in the south that had worse stats than that.

 

[Prairiepalmeri]

Osteopathic schools are distinctively holistic to the same extent that large MD programs distinctively perform research. Osteopathic schools perform research as well but the research is not as large and robust as it is at "insert-state-school-here". MD's are holistic, likewise. The point is that the holistic approach is a central tenet to the osteopathic profession and that it is especially integrated into the curriculum. Don't make it a black a white argument (that's not looking at it holistically lol).

 

[Psai]

CCOM and AZCOM and DMU have high stats 3.6+ and 30+ averages. I don't have the MSAR anymore but I remember a bunch of state schools in the south that had worse stats than that.

CCOM 29.5 AZCOM 30 DMU 28.8 from their websites
NYMC 31 Rowan 29 FSU 28 so okay it's comparable
GPA is hard to compare as DO schools allow for grade replacement. But I remember 3.6 being the 10th percentile for a lot of the places I applied to although that was applicant stats not matriculant and that was a few years ago.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There are more threads on this than hydrogen atoms in the Milky Way, but here's as comprehensive and unbiased an answer as I can give you.

DO is a degree for osteopathic medicine and is functionally equivalent in terms of scope of practice and licensing to an MD degree. DO schools are generally newer than MD schools and are less likely to be affiliated with large academic medical centers. This means less access to research and connections in more research heavy-fields, as well as home departments for these fields. DOs currently have their own residency match (AOA match) that is representative of all specialties, but by the time you are matching, DO and MD residencies will be merged - the effects of this merger have been speculated about on plenty of other threads, so I will not go into that here. DOs can match into MD (ACGME) residencies if they take Step 1 in addition to the COMLEX, but they will still be at a disadvantaged compared to MDs with similar profiles.

DOs can theoretically match into any specialty that MDs can, but in practice they are more limited due to anti-DO bias that exists at many academic medical centers, especially within certain specialties. One of the reasons this bias exists is because clinical rotations are not standardized in quality across DO schools, so program directors may be hesitant to take students from a school that may not be a known quality. However, many community and non-top tier academic programs are still readily accessible to DOs in most specialties.

DOs have an added curricular component called OMM, a practice with questionable scientific evidence, though it is not something that you devote the majority of your learning time to. As some might put it, it's just another "tool in the box".

More DOs go into primary care than MDs. According to wikipedia, about 2/3s of all DO graduates go into a primary care field while 1/3 of all MDs do. This gap is probably even bigger because MDs are more likely than DOs to match to academic medical centers and thus have more opportunities to specialize, likely cutting the number of MDs that go into true primary care by 33-50%.

The tradeoff is that DO schools have generally less competitive MCAT/GPA/research profiles than their MD counterparts and have a policy called grade replacement where they only count the more recent of two grades for the same class, whereas MD admissions count both equally. This allows people with a less than stellar academic record to have a chance at redemption. Additionally, the median DO school MCAT is around a 27 while the median MD MCAT is around a 31, so there's a bit more leeway there too. However, this gap has been closing in recent years.

In terms of matching difficulty for DOs, here is generally what I have observed (people more familiar with this process, please correct me):

Easy: pediatrics, internal medicine, pathology, family medicine, PM&R, psychiatry

Medium: OBGYN, emergency medicine, anesthesiology, neurology

Hard: general surgery, radiology

Extremely hard (do not at all count on matching into these as a DO): neurosurgery, plastic surgery, orthopedic surgery, ENT, ophthalmology, dermatology, radiation oncology, urology

That's about it I think. People more familiar with DO schools, please correct any mistakes!

This should be stickied. And I would agree with the tiers of difficulty with one small exception. Ortho is easier than the rest of the specialties you have listed it with due to AOA programs. (ACGME ortho is essentially impossible). even with the merger the former AOA programs will most likely still take a good number of DOs which will make it easier than say NS, which only has 13 AOA spots and probably only half of those will make the merger.


Interesting side note, I've been told that ACGME optho is the most DO friendly of the surgical subspecialties although only a select few go for it.

Either way anything surgical ranges from medium hard (GS) to nigh impossible (NS)

I hope that made sense.

 

[TallPreMed]

If you haven't found answers to the question you asked, then you clearly haven't found the magnifying glass in the right hand corner. That my friend is called a search button.

Oh hey, look at everything I've found since August when searching MD vs DO! Two pages worth of threads!

 

[TallPreMed]

Hold on, is this a troll thread?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Hold on, is this a troll thread?

Nah just your run of the mill MD vs DO thread.

 

[Goro]

Offhand compare AZCOM, the coastal Touros, CCOM with, say, U KS, CNU, LSU, U AR and Mercer.

You are correct about grade replacement being a confounder, but the numbers are all we have to go on. And both MD and DO schools may fudge numbers for MCAT; for example, most recent best, vs composite score vs average score!

CCOM 29.5 AZCOM 30 DMU 28.8 from their websites
NYMC 31 Rowan 29 FSU 28 so okay it's comparable
GPA is hard to compare as DO schools allow for grade replacement. But I remember 3.6 being the 10th percentile for a lot of the places I applied to although that was applicant stats not matriculant and that was a few years ago.

 

[Goro]

Haven't a clue!!!


@Goro what happens if a DO student excels in USMLE but marginally passes the COMLEX?

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

UGH! I don't get why so many people equate stats with how good of a physician you're going to be!!!! Sure stats get you into the door of a top medical school but the type of doctor you will be (not just diagnostically speaking, but as a human, coworker ect) is almost 100% dependent on you the person.

There is always consultation between MD's with DO's and vice versa. I work in a cardiology office and there have been numerous times where the older physician from Brown asks the younger physician from PCOM or the older physician from CCOM about certain cases and how they would approach it. There are interactions the other way too! The same goes with the ER, and virtually EVERY FIELD. Quite frankly, I know many DO's that have a stronger work ethic than their MD counterparts, and I know many MD's that have a stronger work ethic than their DO counterparts. What does that tell you? IT IS DEPENDENT ON THE PERSON! Also...if a DO takes the USMLE, scores 70% percentile, whereas the MD takes it, scores 50% percentile, those admission stats go right through the damn window. Also...COMLEX is almost identical to the USMLE. The concepts in biochem/physio/anatomy/pharmacology ect you learn at CCOM/PCOM/MSUCOM that are tested on COMPLEX are going to be the same that you learn at Harvard/Penn/Pitt/Jeff/USC ect that are tested on the USMLE. Sure DO's have to work harder to get where they want compared to their MD counterparts but you people make it sound like that is a terrible thing. IT'S NOT! It's inconvenient but working hard will only make you a better physician.

 

[prehealthadvisor55]

I am allo only.

What does this mean? Aren't you pre-med at this point?

 

[Mansamusa]

CCOM and AZCOM and DMU have high stats 3.6+ and 30+ averages. I don't have the MSAR anymore but I remember a bunch of state schools in the south that had worse stats than that.

AZCOM is that only one of those schools with a 30 MCAT average

UGH! I don't get why so many people equate stats with how good of a physician you're going to be!!!! Sure stats get you into the door of a top medical school but the type of doctor you will be (not just diagnostically speaking, but as a human, coworker ect) is almost 100% dependent on you the person.

There is always consultation between MD's with DO's and vice versa. I work in a cardiology office and there have been numerous times where the older physician from Brown asks the younger physician from PCOM or the older physician from CCOM about certain cases and how they would approach it. There are interactions the other way too! The same goes with the ER, and virtually EVERY FIELD. Quite frankly, I know many DO's that have a stronger work ethic than their MD counterparts, and I know many MD's that have a stronger work ethic than their DO counterparts. What does that tell you? IT IS DEPENDENT ON THE PERSON! Also...if a DO takes the USMLE, scores 70% percentile, whereas the MD takes it, scores 50% percentile, those admission stats go right through the damn window. Also...COMLEX is almost identical to the USMLE. The concepts in biochem/physio/anatomy/pharmacology ect you learn at CCOM/PCOM/MSUCOM that are tested on COMPLEX are going to be the same that you learn at Harvard/Penn/Pitt/Jeff/USC ect that are tested on the USMLE. Sure DO's have to work harder to get where they want compared to their MD counterparts but you people make it sound like that is a terrible thing. IT'S NOT! It's inconvenient but working hard will only make you a better physician.

It's not a terrible thing, but when you are risking hundreds of thousands of dollars you want to put yourself in the best position you can... A DO urologist could be as good as a MD urologist, but a DO student will have more trouble getting to a urology residency

 

[Lawpy]

What does this mean? Aren't you pre-med at this point?

She's applying only to MD schools

 

[Psai]

UGH! I don't get why so many people equate stats with how good of a physician you're going to be!!!! Sure stats get you into the door of a top medical school but the type of doctor you will be (not just diagnostically speaking, but as a human, coworker ect) is almost 100% dependent on you the person.

There is always consultation between MD's with DO's and vice versa. I work in a cardiology office and there have been numerous times where the older physician from Brown asks the younger physician from PCOM or the older physician from CCOM about certain cases and how they would approach it. There are interactions the other way too! The same goes with the ER, and virtually EVERY FIELD. Quite frankly, I know many DO's that have a stronger work ethic than their MD counterparts, and I know many MD's that have a stronger work ethic than their DO counterparts. What does that tell you? IT IS DEPENDENT ON THE PERSON! Also...if a DO takes the USMLE, scores 70% percentile, whereas the MD takes it, scores 50% percentile, those admission stats go right through the damn window. Also...COMLEX is almost identical to the USMLE. The concepts in biochem/physio/anatomy/pharmacology ect you learn at CCOM/PCOM/MSUCOM that are tested on COMPLEX are going to be the same that you learn at Harvard/Penn/Pitt/Jeff/USC ect that are tested on the USMLE. Sure DO's have to work harder to get where they want compared to their MD counterparts but you people make it sound like that is a terrible thing. IT'S NOT! It's inconvenient but working hard will only make you a better physician.

Because people with higher stats generally learn better and know more which is why they test well. You need to know a lot of things as a doctor. And mds work hard. It's not like having to work harder to get to the same place means that you will work harder by default. Track record matters. High achieving people don't suddenly start slacking off. They continue to be high achieving

Have you even taken comlex or step 1?

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

Because people with higher stats generally learn better and know more which is why they test well. You need to know a lot of things as a doctor. And mds work hard. It's not like having to work harder to get to the same place means that you will work harder by default. Track record matters. High achieving people don't suddenly start slacking off. They continue to be high achieving

Have you even taken comlex or step 1?

I have not taken both but in the ER we have a 3rd year from a DO school who recently took both less than 1 year ago and explained that in studying for one, he studied for the other. All he needed to do was study OMM.

Also, I agree with many of your points. But remember, testing well does not translate to being an adequate doctor. Never is medicine similar to a multiple choice style test like USMLE or COMLEX.

 

[Bones 2020]

They are both physicians. Just go to whichever school you get into

 

[acapnial]

I have not taken both but in the ER we have a 3rd year from a DO school who recently took both less than 1 year ago and explained that in studying for one, he studied for the other. All he needed to do was study OMM.

Also, I agree with many of your points. But remember, testing well does not translate to being an adequate doctor. Never is medicine similar to a multiple choice style test like USMLE or COMLEX.

The general knowledge base is similar but they are very different tests

 

[Psai]

I have not taken both but in the ER we have a 3rd year from a DO school who recently took both less than 1 year ago and explained that in studying for one, he studied for the other. All he needed to do was study OMM.

Also, I agree with many of your points. But remember, testing well does not translate to being an adequate doctor. Never is medicine similar to a multiple choice style test like USMLE or COMLEX.

Better doctors generally know more and people who know more test better. It's not like being bad at tests is a prerequisite for bring a good doc

 

[NotYou20]

CCOM and AZCOM and DMU have high stats 3.6+ and 30+ averages. I don't have the MSAR anymore but I remember a bunch of state schools in the south that had worse stats than that.

This is true. Still, for most people it's easier to get into those schools than an md school. Being oos really hurts chances at those places

*i got into azcom and ccom, had a chance at an md school but blew the interview. I'd absolutely say it's easier to get a do acceptance than an md one. I think do advocates are wasting their time and credibility arguing otherwise.