Meal breaks while on call

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I totally agree that if you have nothing for them to do, as a resident, you should cut them loose. Be magnanimous.

I call it being human.

As residents we should protect the med students from being overwhelmed or abused. There is no learning if you're exhausted, starving, or being yelled at by someone for something beyond your control. Navigating the inner society known as the hospital is tough thing to do in the beginning. These first few months for the MS3's will either confirm or deny their choices of specialty, and sometimes how we act towards them in that specialty is as important as what that specialty is.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
Out of curiosity, to what else besides eating does it apply? Sleep? Study needs?

If that's your philosophy, go with it. Just know that many residents won't think highly of the my-needs-first attitude. Obviously, no one cares if you excuse yourself to the bathroom for a few minutes, or eat a quick snack that you have in your white coat pocket. Realize, however, that excusing yourself for a lunch break while the team is working will not look good to a lot of people. Grabbing a couple hours of sleep on call while the residents are doing consults-- the same thing. If you want to be considered part of the team, you should act like it.

I think you are completely missing the point. I'm not saying to run off while working. I'm saying if you feel light headed, take care of the issue instead of becoming a patient yourself. If you are sick, do everything you can to make yourself better faster. If you have a medical condition that you need to see a doctor for, go to the appointments, don't skip out on your own health. The examples you are giving here are ridiculous and if someone actually does that, they definitely need to fix their attitude. But if they are sick or if there is nothing they can personally do for 5 min, run and get food and offer for the others. I've never had an issue with this policy, and most are grateful for getting something back too. I've never had a person get upset on me for my beliefs. Maybe it's because I make sure what I can do is done and gets done as quickly as possible...including helping the resident/intern/attending with whatever they want help with too. (I always ask if they want help before I ask to be excused for 5 min.)
 
Midway through third year I stopped playing these stupid games. You definitely become more assertive as you progress. If I'm hungry and there is obviously nothing going on, I go get food. If I'm not hungry and there's nothing going on, I get up and go read in the student room. If a resident/attending is being a ****head, I tell them.

It has only even been an issue once, when an attending docked me for "lack of motivation and interest in learning" because, "every time I walked by you were just hanging out in the student room" despite the fact I was in the student room studying up on a patient because there was nothing going on.

It happens.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I call it being human.

As residents we should protect the med students from being overwhelmed or abused. There is no learning if you're exhausted, starving, or being yelled at by someone for something beyond your control. Navigating the inner society known as the hospital is tough thing to do in the beginning. These first few months for the MS3's will either confirm or deny their choices of specialty, and sometimes how we act towards them in that specialty is as important as what that specialty is.

Whatever you want to call it, my point is the same. It's a world of difference between you deciding the med student can go home, to lunch etc, and the med student asking.

The goal of a resident isn't to sell their specialty to the med students, although those that are excited about their chosen field may do that of their own volition. I actually think that seeing the resident lifestyle, including the fact that residents don't get to eat lunch every day in a certain specialty or two should be taken into account by med students for whom that is important, not have residents artificially make things nicer for the med students, which may mislead them into thinking a field more benign than it is.

Reminds me of the summer associate jobs at law firms. The young law students were treated to week after week of restaurants, happy hours, ballgames, and very modest workload. Many signed on, and found that the real job entailed none of that.
 
Asking for food when patient care is going on just shows that you don't have your priorities correctly aligned.
Sorry, but I view myself as more important than the patient in the long haul. If the patient care can't wait, then I can, but about 95% of patient care won't be hurt by waiting 10 minutes. You can always say "Sure, I'll do that consult," take down the information, walk to the bathroom, grab something from the vending machine, and walk to the ER. If the consult is that urgent that you can't do that, then they shouldn't be paging the student to do it first.
 
Sorry, but I view myself as more important than the patient in the long haul. If the patient care can't wait, then I can, but about 95% of patient care won't be hurt by waiting 10 minutes. You can always say "Sure, I'll do that consult," take down the information, walk to the bathroom, grab something from the vending machine, and walk to the ER. If the consult is that urgent that you can't do that, then they shouldn't be paging the student to do it first.

Well, you are defining a situation where you can go get food which isn't really the same as the OP's. Sure if you are going off to the ED to do a consult on your own, on your own schedule, and you grab something on the way, the resident never really has to know. That's IMHO extremely different from going to a resident you are working directly with at the time (not running off and doing your own thing like in a consult service) and saying "can I go take lunch?" If you are working WITH the resident, you are working WITH the resident, and don't get to dictate the breaks.
 
If you are working WITH the resident, you are working WITH the resident, and don't get to dictate the breaks.

In my experience, if I was working "WITH" a resident, I was watching, not doing. If I was working on my own, I was doing and learning. I think you highly overrate the educational value of sitting with/following a resident and watching them do work.

As a resident, I expect my med students to be taking care of their patients, not watching me take care of mine. If they decide it's time to get some food, unless I'm actively teaching or they're actually helping me accomplish something, they can go and eat. If they don't get their work done because they didn't prioritize, then they have consequences. Point being, they're learning how to take care of people and manage time. I'm there to help when they need and oversee their decisions, not to dictate their every move throughout the day.

God knows my attending doesn't tell me when I can eat lunch, and I don't have to ask her. I just figure it out on my own. That's what a resident does, and that's what a student should learn how to do. They should learn how to be independent, not learn how to follow your butt rank and file all day long.
 
Well, you are defining a situation where you can go get food which isn't really the same as the OP's. Sure if you are going off to the ED to do a consult on your own, on your own schedule, and you grab something on the way, the resident never really has to know. That's IMHO extremely different from going to a resident you are working directly with at the time (not running off and doing your own thing like in a consult service) and saying "can I go take lunch?" If you are working WITH the resident, you are working WITH the resident, and don't get to dictate the breaks.
Don't shadow a resident. Problem solved. It's a poor way to learn. The only rotation where my day was based around shadowing a resident was anesthesia, and they took lunch breaks nearly every day anyways.
 
Don't shadow a resident. Problem solved. It's a poor way to learn. The only rotation where my day was based around shadowing a resident was anesthesia, and they took lunch breaks nearly every day anyways.

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking the resident if there's anything more you can do to help out. If the answer is no, then maybe the resident will take the hint and send you to lunch, and you come off looking dedicated. If you end up shadowing, that may mean 1. The resident doesn't know what to do with you, 2. The program is set up that way (I've seen places where the med students aren't allowed to do much on their own), 3. The resident is going to teach or hand out work on the fly. Again, the apprenticeship model is a tried and true teaching mechanism that has existed thousands of years, and contemplates the aprentice working directly under the supervision of the mentor. You can say you learn more when off on your own, but this form of learning has endured for a reason.
 
It is ridiculous to keep a med student from eating lunch. They can eat in 15 minutes or less, and they can be following up on labs/consults/nursing notes on the computer while doing it.

I think the culture of medical education at institutions such as Law2Doc's is backward, stupid, and breeds bitterness and arrogance. There is no way that anyone can argue that programs where students aren't given equal rights put out better students that those who treat students with basic respect.

I'm not saying that getting lunch will necessarily make a med student a better physician, but I bet it will make the student less bitter about their medical education, and with burnout being such an issue in medicine, I guess I'd rather have people start hating medicine later rather than eariler.

We're not talking about eating lunch at the computer... we're talking about taking off to go eat. At institutions like mine and the one Law2Doc is talking about there is a HUGE difference there. You miss out on a lot when you're out of the rounding room/call room/lounge/wherever the residents are working... running the list, new pages about a patient, etc, and they won't necessarily update you. It's a weird kind of respect at these places. For example, I completely respect my residents as my bosses and purveors of my time. They respect me enough to "remind" me to sleep on call, go to lunch, and leave. The reason I have to ask them if I can do anything else before they let me leave is because I can be taught to do most of the paperwork they take care of. I've done discharge summaries, I do orders, I make calls.

The only thing people are bitter about here are the fact that we can't sit down during OBGYN. And the fact that the residents work fewer hours than us on call... they have to leave at 1 pm. I... go to lecture. Let's go off about that... LOL.
 
Last edited:
You can say you learn more when off on your own, but this form of learning has endured for a reason.
Yeah, because it's easy. The resident just walks around and does their own thing without having to supervise the med student's independent work, and the student walks around mindlessly just watching the resident do his own work.
 
Don't shadow a resident. Problem solved. It's a poor way to learn. The only rotation where my day was based around shadowing a resident was anesthesia, and they took lunch breaks nearly every day anyways.

and breakfast breaks...and second breakfast breaks...and coffee breaks...and mid-day snack breaks...and nap-time breaks...

;)
 
Members don't see this ad :)
You don't get the culture at many places. No resident is going to say "no you can't go eat". That would be being an "a hole", and very few would do that.

I think being honest with your med students, and not being passive aggressive, is being less of an 'a-hole' than saying "No, you can't go eat."

Is it THAT hard to be transparent with med students? If they ask to go off and eat while you're busy, either ask them to bring something back for you, or just say, "Hold on, we're still being slammed with work. I may need you to stick around for a little while longer and help out."
 
I think being honest with your med students, and not being passive aggressive, is being less of an 'a-hole' than saying "No, you can't go eat."

Is it THAT hard to be transparent with med students? If they ask to go off and eat while you're busy, either ask them to bring something back for you, or just say, "Hold on, we're still being slammed with work. I may need you to stick around for a little while longer and help out."

Nah see 'cause that would go against the 'culture' of some institutions. It's not the resident's fault, it's the 'culture'.
 
I think people are forgetting the OP's question. When the residents are really not doing anything (which does happen), was he at fault.
 
I think people are forgetting the OP's question. When the residents are really not doing anything (which does happen), was he at fault.

The problem is that med students can't always determine when nothing is going on, because they may not know that the resident is waiting for X he just paged to call him back, or waiting on Y attending who wanted to ago by and run the board. Like many jobs it's often "hurry up and wait". Residents wait on the seniors and attendings, and med students wait on the residents. It's how hierarchies work. So no, the med student doesn't decide when nothing is going on. But if nothing truly is going on the resident should tell the students "now would be a good time for you to go eat". If s/he doesn't then you eat your granola bar you keep handy. That's just the way it works at many places.
 
The problem is that med students can't always determine when nothing is going on, because they may not know that the resident is waiting for X he just paged to call him back, or waiting on Y attending who wanted to ago by and run the board. Like many jobs it's often "hurry up and wait". Residents wait on the seniors and attendings, and med students wait on the residents. It's how hierarchies work. So no, the med student doesn't decide when nothing is going on. But if nothing truly is going on the resident should tell the students "now would be a good time for you to go eat". If s/he doesn't then you eat your granola bar you keep handy. That's just the way it works at many places.

With good communication from their resident, a medical student should have a basic understanding of what's going on and what any delays are. If they don't, that's a sign of poor communication from the resident. If a med student says, "Can I go eat?" and you are waiting on the attending/labs/a return page/whatever, the proper response would be, "Sure, but I'm waiting for _______. Once that's done I may go eat if there's time."
 
The problem is that med students can't always determine when nothing is going on, because they may not know that the resident is waiting for X he just paged to call him back, or waiting on Y attending who wanted to ago by and run the board. Like many jobs it's often "hurry up and wait". Residents wait on the seniors and attendings, and med students wait on the residents. It's how hierarchies work. So no, the med student doesn't decide when nothing is going on. But if nothing truly is going on the resident should tell the students "now would be a good time for you to go eat". If s/he doesn't then you eat your granola bar you keep handy. That's just the way it works at many places.

I've heard stories of med students getting yelled at for eating in front of others. So, then what?

Since "the problem is that med students can't always determine when nothing is going on," maybe that would be a good opportunity to teach them? If they ask to go eat, explain why now might not be a good time. They then learn more about how medical teams work, and you haven't come across as a passive aggressive jerk.

You just can't win when you're an MS3. :(
 
I've heard stories of med students getting yelled at for eating in front of others. So, then what?

Since "the problem is that med students can't always determine when nothing is going on," maybe that would be a good opportunity to teach them? If they ask to go eat, explain why now might not be a good time. They then learn more about how medical teams work, and you haven't come across as a passive aggressive jerk.

You just can't win when you're an MS3. :(


I usually tend to not agree with your posts, but in this case I agree with you. Just cuz the culture has been this way doesnt mean it HAS to be this way. Medical students are not children. We are all adults, treat them that way. I had an attending tell me not to eat on rounds because rounds are a time of discipline and strength. Yeah whatever. I dont care if you're Michael Debakey, if you re blood sugar is getting low, you re going to have to treat that before you can treat any patient. If you make an issue of it I'll just find a way to work around it.

The key is to keep feeling this way when the winter of internship has set in. When its February and the nights are longer than the days and there is no holiday like Xmas to look forward to, its important to remember the respect due to students because they are adults.

sorry if i went on a rant.
 
All this technicality over eating XDD I don't think someone could do the best job taking care of patients if they themselves aren't in the best shape. If you're really hungry your mind might not be focused on learning as much as what's for lunch lol
 
Sorry, but I view myself as more important than the patient in the long haul. If the patient care can't wait, then I can, but about 95% of patient care won't be hurt by waiting 10 minutes. You can always say "Sure, I'll do that consult," take down the information, walk to the bathroom, grab something from the vending machine, and walk to the ER. If the consult is that urgent that you can't do that, then they shouldn't be paging the student to do it first.

Yeah, I agree. If we're going to continue to be good health care providers, we have to care for ourselves. This notion of neglecting all our needs for our patients just leads to burnout and bad health. When are doctors going to admit that we're humans and have basic human needs that should take some priority?

As for eating 3rd year, I reached the point where I didn't care about pleasing everyone around me and left to do what I needed to do. In the situation above, I would have either asked to eat or been pissed off about not eating -- asking is the better choice. Bringing stuff back, though, would have a been a nice call. I agree, though, that the resident is being an ass. Be friendly, help when you can and study -- those are the keys to doing well. Kissing endless ass just makes 3rd year an even more miserable experience than it already is. And be suspicious about people who make assertions about culture -- yeah, they might be right about the culture of their institution, or they might be perceiving the culture to be a certain way to fit with their own biases about how the medical field is.
 
When nothing's going on, I tell the med students they shoudl go to the cafeteria and buy me food. Then they get back and I make them watch me eat the food. If I'm feeling magnanimous, I might let them have some of my crumbs. But if they ever say "please most glorious intern, may I have some more?", I just bitch slap em and tell em to go do my scut. They can eat when they get back home.:smuggrin:
 
I usually tend to not agree with your posts, but in this case I agree with you. Just cuz the culture has been this way doesnt mean it HAS to be this way. ...

Cultures change from the top down, not the bottom up. As a med student you abide by the culture. As an intern you still abide by the culture. You don't want to get stuck with no med students around when your senior shows up unexpectedly, wanting to teach, etc and says "where are the med students" and you have to say -- they went to lunch, home, etc.

It's the folks above who can impose or break the trend of a culture, if they so desire. But most of the time they don't because they thrived under the same culture back when. Everyone else tries to keep their head down so as not to get whacked like a mole. Which again, is why at many places you don't ask to go to lunch, to go home etc, you wait until someone else says go ahead, because then it's on them. That's the way it works at many places. Don't blame me, I didn't start this and I'm not going to be the one to try and undue decades of culture.
 
Cultures change from the top down, not the bottom up. As a med student you abide by the culture. As an intern you still abide by the culture. You don't want to get stuck with no med students around when your senior shows up unexpectedly, wanting to teach, etc and says "where are the med students" and you have to say -- they went to lunch, home, etc.

It's the folks above who can impose or break the trend of a culture, if they so desire. But most of the time they don't because they thrived under the same culture back when. Everyone else tries to keep their head down so as not to get whacked like a mole. Which again, is why at many places you don't ask to go to lunch, to go home etc, you wait until someone else says go ahead, because then it's on them. That's the way it works at many places. Don't blame me, I didn't start this and I'm not going to be the one to try and undue decades of culture.

Very sheeplike. Bravo.
 
Very sheeplike. Bravo.

Get real. The interns don't make the rules. Rules are handed down to them. Nor do the med students ever dictate the terms. This IS a hierarchy, and not a new one that's still particularly malleable. I'm not the resident in the above example, I certainly let my med students go eat, leave, etc when it's appropriate. But I certainly work in a culture where it's wrong for them to ask, and expected for them to have provisions in their white coat for the times when the timing doesn't pan out. You aren't going to get to third year and be able to dictate the terms of whatever program you find yourself working in. You are going to simply have to deal with it. If that means carrying granola bars and maybe missing a meal once in a while, that's what it means. That may not make sense, it may be repugnant, it may be unfair. But that's simply the way it works at many places.

Don't shoot the messenger, as many on this thread seem to be trying to do. Just find out from prior med students how things work, and plan accordingly. Working in a hierarchy may be a new experience for a lot of you. Not so much for career changers who may have come from even more strict hierarchies, and have a sense of how deep seated these things are. You don't just say, this is dumb, I'm not playing this game. You play the game. That doesn't make you a sheep, it simply means you understand that there is a culture at work, imposed by years of tradition and/or the higher-ups of the program, and you as a med student, or even a year out of being a med student, aren't going to change it without ruffling the feathers of the folks who had to endure the same thing a few years back and expect that trend to continue.
 
Get real. The interns don't make the rules. Rules are handed down to them. Nor do the med students ever dictate the terms. This IS a hierarchy, and not a new one that's still particularly malleable. I'm not the resident in the above example, I certainly let my med students go eat, leave, etc when it's appropriate. But I certainly work in a culture where it's wrong for them to ask, and expected for them to have provisions in their white coat for the times when the timing doesn't pan out. You aren't going to get to third year and be able to dictate the terms of whatever program you find yourself working in. You are going to simply have to deal with it. If that means carrying granola bars and maybe missing a meal once in a while, that's what it means. That may not make sense, it may be repugnant, it may be unfair. But that's simply the way it works at many places.

Don't shoot the messenger, as many on this thread seem to be trying to do. Just find out from prior med students how things work, and plan accordingly. Working in a hierarchy may be a new experience for a lot of you. Not so much for career changers who may have come from even more strict hierarchies, and have a sense of how deep seated these things are. You don't just say, this is dumb, I'm not playing this game. You play the game. That doesn't make you a sheep, it simply means you understand that there is a culture at work, imposed by years of tradition and/or the higher-ups of the program, and you as a med student, or even a year out of being a med student, aren't going to change it without ruffling the feathers of the folks who had to endure the same thing a few years back and expect that trend to continue.

I'm curious how you caught on to this culture so quickly into internship. Is it somewhere you rotated at or is it your home program? And if you knew about the strictly hierarichal nature/ borderline oppressive nature of your program, then you *chose* that environment. Speaks volumes to what you find acceptable, even desireable.
 
Why is everyone attacking L2D? All he's done is recognize that these cultures exist.

It is CLEAR to me that programs have cultures - expectations and patterns of behavior that have been ingrained for years. It may be as simple as you don't wear scrubs outside of the OR or more complex like the situations above. Usually these "rules" aren't apparent to outsiders and you can hardly blame someone for matching to a place with such culture, but it doesn't take long to identify once you become an insider.

Sheep-like it may be to follow these patterns as a medical student or junior resident, but I'd venture that most here talk a big game but wouldn't dare go against the culture until a senior resident. Life is hard enough without being labeled as a complainer and a whiner. You can go along with the culture but don't perpetuate it when it becomes your turn to make the rules.

The labeling of programs with rules as "oppressive" and derogation of brand new interns in those programs seems beyond the pale to me. I'm glad everyone else here seems to be a resident in programs filled with butterflies and rainbows and can cast aspersions on those who are not.

Not a single person here has advocated making students starve or that such cultures are the right thing. Just because one recognizes that they are in a program with a culture where students don't ask to go and eat, doesn't mean that they ascribe to that culture, just that they are socially aware enough to realize it exists and have chosen to not rock the boat. Show me an intern who spends his days complaining and going against the grain and I'll show you an intern who isn't well liked, possibly "doesn't fit it" and may be looking for a job next year. The time for revolution is NOT July of your intern year.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's the folks above who can impose or break the trend of a culture, if they so desire. But most of the time they don't because they thrived under the same culture back when.

I was going to point out that you had taken a very charitable view of things, but fortunately you corrected yourself in in your next post:

...ruffling the feathers of the folks who had to endure the same thing a few years back and expect that trend to continue.
 
Sure, a somewhat malignant culture can exist in places, but a hierarchical, authoritarian guy like Law2Doc is likely to perceive the world around him to be as authoritarian and hierarchical as he is, when it really might not be. Maybe we're attacking him (not really attacking) because we've read his posts for years essentially saying the same things about this culture and have found it not necessarily to be true in our own experiences. And I'll note that we have no choice about reading or not reading his posts because we can't place mods on the ignore list (a policy that sucks, imo).
 
Why is everyone attacking L2D? All he's done is recognize that these cultures exist.

Pardon me, he doesn't just recognize it - he's an advocate and an apologist for it. He *revels* in the heirarichal culture. As he alludes to in his posts re: previous careers, he's probably most comfortable in such an environment.

At the same time, he shrugs his shoulders and responds by saying "it's the culture", as if this has some magical rationale as to why things are the way they are, and why things will never change.

The bottom line is, that he chose this type of environment, and though while an intern, will not try to change things - *even things he probably could get away with as an intern*, what's most damning is that when he becomes a chief he will continue to perpetuate the heirarchal culture because he likes it that way. I'll say it again for cheap seats: When he becomes a chief and then an attending, and in a position to change things, he will not, because that's the way he likes it.
 
Perhaps that's the case. I don't read enough (into) of his posts to assume that he prefers a hierarchical culture nor do I see anything wrong with that. Surgery is naturally hierarchical but that doesn't = malignant necessarily. I also realize that others in less hierarchical specialties see this as a bad thing and assume it means a malignant program and culture. I think it clear that there is a wide variety of opinions on what constitutes malignancy.

I'll let him respond as its not my place to say whether or advocates or prefers such a culture or whether he will make an attempt to change things once he's a senior resident.

But I still think that a lot of people here talk big about arguing with their residents when we know darn good and well that they wouldn't do it for a single moment.

Maybe the OP's resident is a total bitch who plays it passive aggressive or maybe he really was clueless as to whether or not there was work to be done. We'll never know.
 
Sheep-like it may be to follow these patterns as a medical student or junior resident, but I'd venture that most here talk a big game but wouldn't dare go against the culture until a senior resident.
Here, I snapped a self-portrait on my last M3 rotation:
korda_che.jpg



Really, you can get meals without making it a revolutionary cause. If I had waited to be told I could eat, I would've been eating lunch about once a week. I guess the culture at other schools entails following your intern/resident much more closely than it does at mine, because except for my nights on call, I usually had a list of things I needed to do on my own time (an H&P, a consult, remove some staples, go to lecture/conference, post-op checks, go see all the patients we're following on a consult service). I often did a lot of things with the attendings too, so the residents wouldn't see me all day.

But I still think that a lot of people here talk big about arguing with their residents when we know darn good and well that they wouldn't do it for a single moment.
My point has been that the argument is unnecessary. If things are really bad, just pack a lunch and eat it in the team room while you're checking labs for the day or something.
 
Che! Ha ha...

one neednt be a revolutionary to do basic things like eat or pee. Maybe its more common in surgery but I know plenty of people who would never think of telling a student to go and have lunch when its slow. Hell my partner forgets our MA needs lunch during office hrs and gets pissy when she takes a break.

You're right that this neednt happen which is why granola bars and the like are handy for those cultures or residents who are mean or inconsiderate or oblivious to the needs of students.

Rest assured that the SDN students who rotate with me get lunch and ill probably spring for dinner and drinks at the end of the rotation.
 
Perhaps that's the case. I don't read enough (into) of his posts to assume that he prefers a hierarchical culture nor do I see anything wrong with that. Surgery is naturally hierarchical but that doesn't = malignant necessarily. I also realize that others in less hierarchical specialties see this as a bad thing and assume it means a malignant program and culture. I think it clear that there is a wide variety of opinions on what constitutes malignancy.

I'll let him respond as its not my place to say whether or advocates or prefers such a culture or whether he will make an attempt to change things once he's a senior resident.

But I still think that a lot of people here talk big about arguing with their residents when we know darn good and well that they wouldn't do it for a single moment.

Maybe the OP's resident is a total bitch who plays it passive aggressive or maybe he really was clueless as to whether or not there was work to be done. We'll never know.

No, there definitely are people who will speak up even as medical students or residents. Going into medicine doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a doormat, although some people seem to think it does. Also granola bars aren't healthy, filling, or sustaining and have crazy amounts of sugar and one can only eat so many of them before they need real food.
 
No, there definitely are people who will speak up even as medical students or residents. Going into medicine doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a doormat, although some people seem to think it does. Also granola bars aren't healthy, filling, or sustaining and have crazy amounts of sugar and one can only eat so many of them before they need real food.

And I never said there weren't nor that you had to be a doormat. Please do not misconstrue my words; no where did I say that EVERY medical student or poster here would not speak up.

But it is obvious to me, as it should be to you, that there ARE people who say one thing on an internet forum that they would never do IRL and that plenty of medical students and even residents will allow themselves to be a doormat for fear of reprisal. I am not advocating that and got into plenty of trouble as an intern for some of the things I did that went against the culture.

Nor did I ever say that students should exist on granola bars. They come in handy for busy days or for students with residents who don't allow breaks and they are too intimidated or passive to ask for one.

Let's not start an argument where one doesn't exist.
 
And I never said there weren't nor that you had to be a doormat. Please do not misconstrue my words; no where did I say that EVERY medical student or poster here would not speak up.

But it is obvious to me, as it should be to you, that there ARE people who say one thing on an internet forum that they would never do IRL and that plenty of medical students and even residents will allow themselves to be a doormat for fear of reprisal. I am not advocating that and got into plenty of trouble as an intern for some of the things I did that went against the culture.

Nor did I ever say that students should exist on granola bars. They come in handy for busy days or for students with residents who don't allow breaks and they are too intimidated or passive to ask for one.

Let's not start an argument where one doesn't exist.

I absolutely agree with you that there are people who talk the talk without walking the walk. I try very hard to be as outspoken, but perhaps a little more diplomatic in real life as I am on here. Looking at my program and the "culture" I can honestly say that amongst my peers I am not at all the exception. There is open and honest discussion of likes and dislikes regarding off service rotations and the changes are evident on a near-monthly basis even in a program that is 15 years old (a young program by some standards, but one of many in emergency medicine). I'm certain that this is an approach that is fostered from the top down, as our program director is very direct, honest, and caring and emphasizes that he really does want to hear about any issues the moment they become a problem.
 
Clearly open and honest discussions can be fostered by having faculty and PDs who exhibit such qualities.

Not everyone is so lucky or are unsure if faculty are being honest with them. Consider yourself lucky if you find yourself in such an environment because not everyone does, even those who would like to speak out.
 
I am curious if others have run into a similar situation. You are on call and hungry. There is some down time so you ask you resident for a quick bite. They say sure and u run off. You come back 15 minutes later to guff and comments about your food break. Has anyone run into this situation before? Am I at fault for getting food? Is it rude for me to eat? Who is the a-hole here?

To me, it doesn't sound like the resident was upset that you ate. I think it sounds like the problem was either 1) you didn't bring back something for the resident or 2) you took too long to come back.
To avoid the risk of ruffling feathers, I think next time you should offer to grab something for the resident and then make sure whatever you get is something portable so you can eat it fast.

Personally, as an intern, I would not care much about the medical student going to eat. I'd just as soon send the students home. :) They'll get enough calls when they're residents too. However, I can see how some residents might be offended if the student doesn't get food for em, and they might feel like when you're on call you need to be ready to work at a moment's notice so you can't take more than a couple of minutes to eat.
 
Personally, as an intern, I would not care much about the medical student going to eat. I'd just as soon send the students home. :) They'll get enough calls when they're residents too. However, I can see how some residents might be offended if the student doesn't get food for em, and they might feel like when you're on call you need to be ready to work at a moment's notice so you can't take more than a couple of minutes to eat.

Going to a community program does have its benefits I guess :D

I have never heard anyone ream out a med student over going to eat while on-call. I've seen attendings routinely cut short their rounds to excuse students for lunch/noon lectures. (Not for the poor intern of course, but that's another story for another day :) )

If anything, it gives me some much needed respite so I don't have to answer their questions (I've had some real chatty med students these past 2 months) in between juggling admissions and floor calls.

And I'd feel pretty awful about sending a medical student to fetch me food.
 
It is such a bunch of BS when people say they don't have time to eat. You might not have enough time to sit down and have a 1 hr lunch but you sure as hell have enough time to buy a sandwich and scarf it down on your way back to the floor.

Anyways, I have worked some hellish hours during my ortho ai but I still managed to eat q4-6 hrs even on 40 hr call (I need my protein). I just went out and bought a boatload of protein bars that I could carry around in my pocket. If protein bars aren't your thing, you can try clif bars... they can be bought for $1 each and will keep you full for a few hours.
clifbar.carrotcake.jpg
 
I think you could have asked nicely like would it be ok if you can take few minutes meal break and would he/she need any thing e.g small snack, fruit or coffee? I know it can be financially hard on med. student but sometimes these things needs to be done.

Regarding making comments once you are back, would depend upon person. You can tell from the beginning what kind of person your resident is as some people will do these kind of things no matter where.

I have to agree some of the earlier comments (I have not read all the comments) that if a resident is super busy and they could use little of your help then they might want to have a good time by making fun of you. Short answer is it really depends and use your guts if this is a good time for meal break.
 
This thread makes me mad. First of all, you are all adults. This isn't elementary school where you need to ask your teacher's permission to go to the potty, or wait for lunch time to go get your lunch. You are a professional, and if you feel like going to the bathroom, go to the damn bathroom. If you feel like you're hungry, and in your professional opinion it is a good time to go eat (ex - you're not doing anything and your team is typing up notes), then there is nothing wrong with saying "Hey, if you guys don't need help with anything, I'm going to go grab a quick snack...page me if you guys need me, and by the way, does anyone want anything?" (and if they do want something, they better hand me a meal card or some cash, because I'm definitely not paying out of my own pocket.)

I do this every single day: I ask my residents if they need help anything...usually they don't, because before I ask I make sure all my work is done. I finish all my notes, discharge summaries, see my patients again, follow up on consults/lab results, and any handoff notes. I then ask if they need help, usually they say no. Then I reply with "well I'm going to the call room/libary/wherever to study. If you need me, page me." My evals have been fine so far, and I've never had a problem with anyone.

To all the residents who don't like this (Law2doc), here's a news flash:
A) I don't work for you. I don't need to ask your permission to go eat, sleep, or even leave if I want. The fact that I'm letting you know what I am doing and where I'll be just means I am fulfilling my professional responsibility. It doesn't mean that you have to babysit me.
B) I'm a professional just as much as you are. That means we are colleagues. You aren't "ranked" higher than me. I don't care if you're a 5 star attending, you can't tell me what to do. As a professional, I'm expected to carry out my duties (be on time, be available, be prepared, know everything about my patient). It doesn't go beyond that.
C) No career is worth sacrificing your dignity. This whole idea of apprenticeship might have worked in the middle ages, but it doesn't fly these days. This whole idea of "this is how it's always been done" is absolutely ridiculous. Schools used to be segregated, that doesn't mean it was a good idea. We also used to use "paddling" in some schools, again, doesn't mean it was a good idea.
Bottom line: I'm a grown man, I don't need anyone's permission to do anything. I can use my own judgement to deem when it is appropriate to eat and when it is not.

Some of you med students seriously sound like you are in elementary school and are scared of the teacher...it's dumb...residents are people just like you. Just because they now have an MD behind their name doesn't give them the right to control you. Some of you residents sound like tools who got punked/disrespected their entire lives, and now that you have a little bit of power and authority, you can't wait to use it as much as possible. Give me a break.
 
The very nature of medicine is hierarchical/military-esque though isn't it? Medical students see patients and present to the intern, who calls the upper level, who calls the attending, and so on. Chiefs will always call the staff if for no other reason than a formality, "hey, going to the OR for an exlap. sure i'll call you if i need something, see you in the morning." I don't really see that changing any time soon.

And while this thread is full of e-thug rebellious john wayne type badasses...the simple truth is that none of us would have gotten this far without going with the flow at least some of the time. You just have to pick your battles....when I was an MS3 we had an ob-gyn intern that would not let us sit in certain chairs at the triage desk, so I sat somewhere else. As an adult, it is lame to be told where you can and cannot sit down on call, we all agreed on that. Some of my classmates decided they were grown people and would sit in "her" chair if they felt like it anyway....which was great, because while she was yelling at them it provided plenty of opportunity for me to go get something to eat.
 
The very nature of medicine is hierarchical/military-esque though isn't it? Medical students see patients and present to the intern, who calls the upper level, who calls the attending, and so on. Chiefs will always call the staff if for no other reason than a formality, "hey, going to the OR for an exlap. sure i'll call you if i need something, see you in the morning." I don't really see that changing any time soon.

And while this thread is full of e-thug rebellious john wayne type badasses...the simple truth is that none of us would have gotten this far without going with the flow at least some of the time. You just have to pick your battles....when I was an MS3 we had an ob-gyn intern that would not let us sit in certain chairs at the triage desk, so I sat somewhere else. As an adult, it is lame to be told where you can and cannot sit down on call, we all agreed on that. Some of my classmates decided they were grown people and would sit in "her" chair if they felt like it anyway....which was great, because while she was yelling at them it provided plenty of opportunity for me to go get something to eat.


There's nothing wrong with a solid chain of command. Every well run organization has a clear chain of command. I'm definitely not saying I want to run the service, or that I need anyone to even listen to me or my opinions. I have no problem with being at the bottom of the food chain, shutting the F up, and learning from those who are more experienced than me. I know my role, and I carry it out. If you give me orders pertaining to my job, I will without a doubt carry them out, no questions asked. I can even see how sitting in someone's chair would annoy them, so I wouldn't take offense to someone telling me to move. I don't have a problem at all with following orders, when it pertains to the job.

What I'm referring to is the other nonsense that has nothing to do with work. Nobody's talking about being a rebel here. I'm talking about mutual professional respect. When you respect your colleagues as a professional, you don't tell them when they can go to the bathroom and when they can eat. I would like to think that the average 3rd year med student would have the common sense to know the appropriate time to go eat, study, or whatever.

What I have a huge problem with is when I'm done with all my work, doing absolutely nothing, and I've already asked everyone if they need help with anything and they say no. At that point, I don't see why they can't just page me if they need me. I'm not just going to sit around and wait for you to be kindhearted enough to send me home. My time is just as valuable as your time, no matter what you think, so I really take offense to those who don't respect it.
 
The problem is that med students can't always determine when nothing is going on, because they may not know that the resident is waiting for X he just paged to call him back, or waiting on Y attending who wanted to ago by and run the board. Like many jobs it's often "hurry up and wait". Residents wait on the seniors and attendings, and med students wait on the residents. It's how hierarchies work. So no, the med student doesn't decide when nothing is going on. But if nothing truly is going on the resident should tell the students "now would be a good time for you to go eat". If s/he doesn't then you eat your granola bar you keep handy. That's just the way it works at many places.

Are you kidding me bro? Didn't you just start your residency? So in the month and a half since you've been an intern, you've somehow learned how to determine when something important is going on and something isn't? I guess when they put those magic letters behind your name, you gained a new level of insight. Look, contrary to what you think, most people aren't that dumb. I think any ***** can tell when people are busy and when people aren't. And as a professional (I keep using this word, because you obviously have no real idea what the word means), you should have absolutely no problem telling someone that you'd like them to stick around if you need their help with something.

Again, just because you think "it's the way it works", doesn't mean it's right or people are still going to follow that mentality. Nobody needs your permission to go eat, and nobody needs to carry around a granola bar. I'd hate to make this personal, but you sound like a major tool.
 
Pardon me, he doesn't just recognize it - he's an advocate and an apologist for it. He *revels* in the heirarichal culture. As he alludes to in his posts re: previous careers, he's probably most comfortable in such an environment.

At the same time, he shrugs his shoulders and responds by saying "it's the culture", as if this has some magical rationale as to why things are the way they are, and why things will never change.

The bottom line is, that he chose this type of environment, and though while an intern, will not try to change things - *even things he probably could get away with as an intern*, what's most damning is that when he becomes a chief he will continue to perpetuate the heirarchal culture because he likes it that way. I'll say it again for cheap seats: When he becomes a chief and then an attending, and in a position to change things, he will not, because that's the way he likes it.

My point exactly; well said.
 
Speaking from my own experience, it's definitely annoying when you are busy and the med students say "is it okay if I go off to eat, study", etc, while you still have a ton to do before you are going to be able to take anything resembling a food break. So it's not going to be well received when the med student runs off for food, leaving you to plow on with the work.

So let me get this straight; just because you have a lot of work to do, the med student should sit there and watch you do it? You might have a valid point if the med student could actually do something to help you or speed along your work, but what exactly do you expect an MS3 to do for you? All we can pretty much do is write progress notes, call consults, get old records, and follow up on labs/procedures. After that, there isn't much we can do.

Please explain to me how it would benefit you to have a med student sit there and watch you type your notes or put in orders. And if something does come up, why can't you page them?

Despite what you think, or what the "culture" dictates, medical school and medicine in general doesn't need to be a punishment in order to be effective. I hope you see that attitudes like yours are what make people become bitter towards medicine.
 
Top