med school to software engineering

[vjayk]

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I'm going to say the comment I made may have been a bit too harsh. I understand that is the case with a lot of different places (in reference to your comment about there being crowds that would be disgusted with someone who doesn't talk in such a way), but in my experience it just ends up being that they are "uneducated." With due time they will hopefully learn the error of their ways and treat others, even those they now consider to be lowly with as much respect (hopefully more) as they would treat their parents.

I do treat everyone with respect. However, I do value people differently, because different people have different values to me and society. Feel-good liberalism wants you to believe that everyone is equally important and everyone's contributions are equally valuable, but that is just false. It's not only false, it's laughable. You can't tell me that a brilliant physicist who is discovering the laws of the universe is equal in value to society to someone who mops the floor at McDonalds. It's just not true. Now, it's stupid to value people differently based on their gender or religion or race or something like that, because those things are irrelevant. But it makes perfect sense to value people based on what they actually contribute to society. And that's (partly) why you get a six figure salary as a doctor and the McDonalds guy doesn't. That, however, is no reason to disrespect or abuse or hurt someone, which I would never do, and have never done. But yes, I would feel far more rewarded saving the life of a brilliant scientist than a garbage collector, and society would derive more benefit from preserving the scientist than the garbage collector too.

Everyone's life is not equally valuable. That's an absurd liberal fantasy.

I know you will all respond to this with accusations of "immaturity" and whatever else, but the fact that your politically correct brains can't process this doesn't make it any less real. And the fact that the only thing you can respond with is "you need to grow up" proves that you don't even have a good counter argument. You're living in a fantasy world where scrubbing toilets is equally valuable as inventing the next generation of technology, and you're telling me to grow up? Get a clue. You want people to value your life? Earn it. Don't just expect it because you exist, like the next government handout. And if you don't have the intelligence or capability to do that, blame your creator, not me. The world isn't fair. Pretending it is like you guys all seem to do is the real sign of immaturity.

 

[DocVapor]

I know you will all respond to this with accusations of "immaturity" and whatever else, but the fact that your politically correct brains can't process this doesn't make it any less real.

Ballsy. I see your point with your focus on the societal impact. However I take a different view.

Regardless of someone's status in life, chances are there are still people that love them. Having actually saved people's lives, it's the ones who's families are truly grateful for it that make me feel the best.

 

[erutha95]

.

 

[vjayk]

Ballsy. I see your point with your focus on the societal impact. However I take a different view.

Regardless of someone's status in life, chances are there are still people that love them. Having actually saved people's lives, it's the ones who's families are truly grateful for it that make me feel the best.

That's great! That's how you derive your satisfaction and that's perfectly fine. I believe that my way of deriving satisfaction is equally valid. My post was aimed at the people who were treating me as some sort of devil for saying that I would feel more rewarded by saving the life of someone with greater societal impact, which I think is ridiculous.

 

[JP2740]

So why do you keep posting in here? You're a new poster who asked for advice, but you're absolutely certain of yourself. Quit medicine.

 

[vjayk]

ITT: privileged kid who wanted to be a doctor for the status and money realizes that there are better ways to get status and money, decides to drop out of medical school.

haha, I have to admit there is truth to that. 🙂

 

[vjayk]

So why do you keep posting in here? You're a new poster who asked for advice, but you're absolutely certain of yourself. Quit medicine.

I got the advice I wanted, now I'm just posting for fun. You don't have to read or respond if you don't want to!

 

[WhoSholaza]

Not really bothering to scroll up and read 3 pages of back & forth comments.

I perceive much of the training in certain healthcare careers as largely based on surviving what amount to prolonged hazing rituals, never-ending memorization, and respect being earned not by merit, but merely by sucking up and enduring scut-work.

I can say in my time in this business - the IT/software business that is - that it is a rare field in that qualifications largely mean nothing. I promise you that few people in this field care how many initials you have behind your name or what college you went to or heck, in many cases, if you even went to college.

The software and programming world absolutely have their issues but one area where they get it right over medicine, nursing, and others is that tangible results and real-world experience count for far more than any paper credentials. I've hired programmers with zero college training solely based on skills, experience, and what they can produce. In my anecdotal experience, people with more formal college training tend to do worse as they are so vastly unprepared for the realities of the business world and dealing with real situations rather than neatly packaged classroom problems (you know, the sort with unlimited budgets, customers who take your every word as unassailable, etc).

What are some of the issues you face in software? In many corporate settings you can forget about coding some fantastic and innovative product and you may well be sustaining a cash cow app or product. Some companies are better than that though, Google comes to mind. Other practicalities? Outsourcing is only accelerating so you have to positively stay current and learn new things. Do not expect for one moment that employers will pay to train you, they will be all too happy to get rid of you and hire someone who already knows the next great thing. This applies to independent contractors and entrepreneurs too although some people find a niche around a specific product or technology and make it that way. Mind you, if said technology changes, goes by the wayside, then so too will your livelihood.

As far as saving lives and having an impact. Even as someone now pursuing a career in healthcare, I am not naive to think it is the only way to help people. I've been on projects that coded navigation and critical monitoring systems for planes - every day those same system work seamlessly, you can bet lives are being saved. Granted it is far less direct and surely less personal than treating someone with a traumatic injury in an ED.

Oh and I have zero doubt you could replace a physician with a computer strictly in terms of knowledge. The WHO I believe lists somethings upwards of 13-14k diseases. Good luck memorizing every single one of them. What is far less easily replaced though is the human face and sensitivity. Then again, I know a lot of people don't find physicians particularly sensitive or caring to their needs - the reasons being complex and subject to a different conversation. Mobile health projects around the developed world aren't necessarily an example of great success so that human face to medicine is unlikely to go away in the near-term future. What's more realistic I think is far more use of technology in day-to-day practice as references and similar tools that enhance rather than replace providers.

Just find what you like and go for it. No sense putting yourself through another >= 5 years of school/training if you are already eyeing other careers.

 

[vjayk]

Not really bothering to scroll up and read 3 pages of back & forth comments.

I perceive much of the training in certain healthcare careers as largely based on surviving what amount to prolonged hazing rituals, never-ending memorization, and respect being earned not by merit, but merely by sucking up and enduring scut-work.

I can say in my time in this business - the IT/software business that is - that it is a rare field in that qualifications largely mean nothing. I promise you that few people in this field care how many initials you have behind your name or what college you went to or heck, in many cases, if you even went to college.

The software and programming world absolutely have their issues but one area where they get it right over medicine, nursing, and others is that tangible results and real-world experience count for far more than any paper credentials. I've hired programmers with zero college training solely based on skills, experience, and what they can produce. In my anecdotal experience, people with more formal college training tend to do worse as they are so vastly unprepared for the realities of the business world and dealing with real situations rather than neatly packaged classroom problems (you know, the sort with unlimited budgets, customers who take your every word as unassailable, etc).

What are some of the issues you face in software? In many corporate settings you can forget about coding some fantastic and innovative product and you may well be sustaining a cash cow app or product. Some companies are better than that though, Google comes to mind. Other practicalities? Outsourcing is only accelerating so you have to positively stay current and learn new things. Do not expect for one moment that employers will pay to train you, they will be all too happy to get rid of you and hire someone who already knows the next great thing. This applies to independent contractors and entrepreneurs too although some people find a niche around a specific product or technology and make it that way. Mind you, if said technology changes, goes by the wayside, then so too will your livelihood.

As far as saving lives and having an impact. Even as someone now pursuing a career in healthcare, I am not naive to think it is the only way to help people. I've been on projects that coded navigation and critical monitoring systems for planes - every day those same system work seamlessly, you can bet lives are being saved. Granted it is far less direct and surely less personal than treating someone with a traumatic injury in an ED.

Just find what you like and go for it. No sense putting yourself through another >= 5 years of school/training if you are already eyeing other careers.

Very good advice, thank you so much.

The only thing that I'm wondering about is where you mentioned that people in the field don't care about your degrees or college training, because I've been looking through job offers and it seems to me that just about every one requires either a B.S. or M.S. in computer science as a bare minimum. And I've seen friends who went to colleges like Stanford and MIT walk right into jobs at Google and Facebook after graduation...

 

[hughnguyen22]

Hey, I'm an MS2 who's on the verge of dropping out. I came to med school for the wrong reasons and now I'm finding myself unhappy with my choice. I've realized I really have no desire to take care of patients, and no matter how much I try to get myself interested in it, I just can't. I can barely get myself to study- the motivation just isn't there. My grades have been slipping and I'm nowhere in my Step 1 preparation.

Halfway through MS2 I started thinking of alternate career paths. I started taking an online programming course and I've absolutely loved it. I find that I can't concentrate in med school lectures anymore because I'm always distracted thinking about ways to improve my code. As soon as I get home I jump on my computer and start coding. Before I realize it, it's already midnight and I haven't studied any medicine. I don't know if this is a passing fad, but I don't think so, because it's been months now and I'm just as captivated as I was on day one.

The reason I'm posting this on a med student forum is because I have been searching on here and I've seen a lot of posts from software engineers who transitioned into medicine. I was hoping I could get some input on my situation from people who have experienced both careers. I'm also kind of scared by the fact that I can find hundreds of stories online of people going from SWE to medicine, but I can't find a single example of someone going the other way. Am I making a terrible mistake?

I had a summer internship in a biomedical engineering lab. These days, biomedical engineering includes a lot of programming, C, math labs, etc. You will mostly work by yourself or with a few people. It is great if you like to work independently. And, no, you do not have to worry about caring for patients.

 

[WhoSholaza]

Glad that was useful.

Regarding degrees and what not, sure an MIT or Cal-Tech Engineering degree still carries weight with it - much like a harvard law diploma. Other schools though? Not quite so much.

Given that you are in medical school though, you almost certainly already have a 4-year degree I'd assume? Possibly in biology, chemistry? So from an education standpoint you've already "signaled" your ability to jump hoops, er, get "educated".

At this point all you need is your first software job and from then on, your education largely becomes irrelevant. No doubt some of the choice jobs in the field for the biggest name companies like Google may still require a degree in the field. For most everything else it won't matter if you have the relevant skills and experience. Just last year I interviewed a few J2EE developers for some contract positions and their degrees read like alphabet soup. All we cared about were their specific skills.

I remember my first software job working with a team of 4 people. One was a psych major, another had a business admin degree, the other was an art major, and I have an engineering degree.

My advice is to learn anything/everything you can on coding, especially for open-source mobile apps like those run on Android, java which is more of a specialized but very lucrative skill set, maybe .NET although the market is saturated with people in that, linux, and sql. Building some useful mobile apps, some solid coding skills, and apply like mad for an internship (take $0) while learning the business. In the meantime you can easily setup a home-based operation for low-overhead work like web design, web presence, data management, and .NET consulting (stuff like sharepoint, etc) for small businesses.

In the software world you don't have readymade credibility that comes with an MD, rather you have a portfolio of skills, experience, and results. If you can sell that threefold package to employers or customers directly (if you become self-employed), then you'll succeed.

 

[vjayk]

Glad that was useful.

Regarding degrees and what not, sure an MIT or Cal-Tech Engineering degree still carries weight with it - much like a harvard law diploma. Other schools though? Not quite so much.

Given that you are in medical school though, you almost certainly already have a 4-year degree I'd assume? Possibly in biology, chemistry? So from an education standpoint you've already "signaled" your ability to jump hoops, er, get "educated".

At this point all you need is your first software job and from then on, your education largely becomes irrelevant. No doubt some of the choice jobs in the field for the biggest name companies like Google may still require a degree in the field. For most everything else it won't matter if you have the relevant skills and experience. Just last year I interviewed a few J2EE developers for some contract positions and their degrees read like alphabet soup. All we cared about were their specific skills.

I remember my first software job working with a team of 4 people. One was a psych major, another had a business admin degree, the other was an art major, and I have an engineering degree.

That's really good to know. So would you say that sticking it out for 2 more years to get the MD (but no residency) wouldn't be worth it?

 

[thefritz]

It's going to be easier getting a job as a software engineer with an MD than dropping out halfway through.

But if you want to freelance, who cares.

 

[hardy]

1. Drop out.
2. http://devbootcamp.com/ or something similar.
3. Profit!

I'm in residency and do software dev on the side... you will make a nice living with software dev. Not MD nice but good enough.

 

[JShephard]

1. Drop out.
2. http://devbootcamp.com/ or something similar.
3. Profit!

I'm in residency and do software dev on the side... you will make a nice living with software dev. Not MD nice but good enough.

Do you earn an income from your development? Do you plan to continue after residency?

 

[hardy]

yes to both. My ideal scenario is practice 1-2 days/week and do my own thing the rest of the time.

 

[thisdoesnt]

Hey, I'm an MS2 who's on the verge of dropping out. I came to med school for the wrong reasons and now I'm finding myself unhappy with my choice. I've realized I really have no desire to take care of patients, and no matter how much I try to get myself interested in it, I just can't. I can barely get myself to study- the motivation just isn't there. My grades have been slipping and I'm nowhere in my Step 1 preparation.

Halfway through MS2 I started thinking of alternate career paths. I started taking an online programming course and I've absolutely loved it. I find that I can't concentrate in med school lectures anymore because I'm always distracted thinking about ways to improve my code. As soon as I get home I jump on my computer and start coding. Before I realize it, it's already midnight and I haven't studied any medicine. I don't know if this is a passing fad, but I don't think so, because it's been months now and I'm just as captivated as I was on day one.

The reason I'm posting this on a med student forum is because I have been searching on here and I've seen a lot of posts from software engineers who transitioned into medicine. I was hoping I could get some input on my situation from people who have experienced both careers. I'm also kind of scared by the fact that I can find hundreds of stories online of people going from SWE to medicine, but I can't find a single example of someone going the other way. Am I making a terrible mistake?

It sounds like you will be very unhappy unless you drop out and try the silicon valley route. Do it and don't look back. Life is short.

 

[Wordead]

You guys are all effing crazy. You're telling a guy that has no interest in working with patients, and no motivation to study to get his MD just so he can be a programmer? Delusional. Just delusional. It is not worth it to pay 2 more years of tuition (assuming he can muster up the motivation to pass) and go into informatics. They don't pay programmers more just because you have a MD. It's a 0-value added degree in that field; it's not consulting.

OP - do a serious evaluation on whether or not you want to continue in medicine. If you're not ever going to want to work with patients, cut your losses now. That's the bigger issue here. Your desire to program is irrelevant. If you dont want to do medicine, get out now.

 

[JGimpel]

So, you researched what was necessary to get into medical school and took classes that may have felt like BS at the time and got into medical school. You would have had to do considerable shadowing/volunteering in medical settings to be a competitive applicant and know if this was the career for you. You may have encountered more classes that felt like BS in medical school, but pushed through. You had enough experience to know what you were getting into and still went into medicine. It sounds like you just got really lazy and don't want to put in the work anymore since it won't be like those doctor shows on TV.

Grow up, finish school, get the shortest residency in a field that doesn't require people to suffer through being around a person that doesn't want to be there and learn programming at night and weekends if your antisocial tendencies lead you towards a more solitary life. If you do develop friends and cultivate friendships and romantic interests, then pare down the career you're not as interested in and ramp up your involvement in the other while paying your bills.

 

[vjayk]

So, you researched what was necessary to get into medical school and took classes that may have felt like BS at the time and got into medical school. You would have had to do considerable shadowing/volunteering in medical settings to be a competitive applicant and know if this was the career for you. You may have encountered more classes that felt like BS in medical school, but pushed through. You had enough experience to know what you were getting into and still went into medicine. It sounds like you just got really lazy and don't want to put in the work anymore since it won't be like those doctor shows on TV.

Grow up, finish school, get the shortest residency in a field that doesn't require people to suffer through being around a person that doesn't want to be there and learn programming at night and weekends if your antisocial tendencies lead you towards a more solitary life. If you do develop friends and cultivate friendships and romantic interests, then pare down the career you're not as interested in and ramp up your involvement in the other while paying your bills.

Thanks for the advice.

To clarify though, I didn't do any shadowing. I didn't research what was necessary to get into med school or anything, I simply took a bio major in college because I had always been good at biology, and wasn't really sure what else I wanted to do. By the end of college, I started to look at job options and realized med school was a viable option for a solid career. It was just one of many options. I took the MCAT and applied to med schools- honestly I didn't put very much effort it into it and didn't expect to actually get in. I actually didn't study for the MCAT much at all, but did decently well because I had been an excellent student in bio, chem and physics. I ended up getting into only one school, where I have a good deal of family influence.

Upon getting in, I got pumped up by the fact that so many people around me were struggling to get in, including my ex-girlfriend who still hasn't made it into med school 2 years later. Also, many people, family included, were impressed by me going to med school. That definitely increased the value of med school in my head. Yes, my thinking was foolish, but I was younger and less experienced in life at that time.

Once I got in, I just kept going. I didn't want to be a med school dropout. Now I've gotten to the point where my motivation has completely run dry. I don't even care to stay for that reason anymore.

 

[ruprecht]

Hey, I'm an MS2 who's on the verge of dropping out. I came to med school for the wrong reasons and now I'm finding myself unhappy with my choice. I've realized I really have no desire to take care of patients, and no matter how much I try to get myself interested in it, I just can't. I can barely get myself to study- the motivation just isn't there. My grades have been slipping and I'm nowhere in my Step 1 preparation.

Halfway through MS2 I started thinking of alternate career paths. I started taking an online programming course and I've absolutely loved it. I find that I can't concentrate in med school lectures anymore because I'm always distracted thinking about ways to improve my code. As soon as I get home I jump on my computer and start coding. Before I realize it, it's already midnight and I haven't studied any medicine. I don't know if this is a passing fad, but I don't think so, because it's been months now and I'm just as captivated as I was on day one.

The reason I'm posting this on a med student forum is because I have been searching on here and I've seen a lot of posts from software engineers who transitioned into medicine. I was hoping I could get some input on my situation from people who have experienced both careers. I'm also kind of scared by the fact that I can find hundreds of stories online of people going from SWE to medicine, but I can't find a single example of someone going the other way. Am I making a terrible mistake?

I wrote my first novels in medical school (MD), and despite having a publishing contract did not quit even though I didn't want to practice medicine. Who's to say you may or may not be sidetracked again? History doesn't particularly favor--with few exceptions--quitters in any field.

 

[vjayk]

I wrote my first novels in medical school (MD), and despite having a publishing contract did not quit even though I didn't want to practice medicine. Who's to say you may or may not be sidetracked again? History doesn't particularly favor--with few exceptions--quitters in any field.

I may get sidetracked again, but I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. Clinging on to something that isn't working for a very long time just to not become a "quitter" seems like a bad idea. In your case, weren't you sidetracked by your writing career? Sure you may have finished your MD, but the fact that you didn't end up practicing medicine makes you a "quitter" too, since sticking to your field would mean sticking to medicine as your primary profession until you retire.

 

[ruprecht]

I may get sidetracked again, but I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. Clinging on to something that isn't working for a very long time just to not become a "quitter" seems like a bad idea. In your case, weren't you sidetracked by your writing career? Sure you may have finished your MD, but the fact that you didn't end up practicing medicine makes you a "quitter" too, since sticking to your field would mean sticking to medicine as your primary profession until you retire.

I did practice, teach, and continue to be involved in medical research.

 

[vjayk]

I did practice, teach, and continue to be involved in medical research.

So you just did it for the sake of it, even though you've already said you didn't want to practice medicine? I'm sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me, unless you had no other options (but you said you did). I think it's fine to quit something if you find you don't like it and have better options. Sticking with something you hate just so you won't become a "quitter" sounds silly. If you have other good reasons, then it's a different story.

 

[ruprecht]

So you just did it for the sake of it, even though you've already said you didn't want to practice medicine? I'm sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me, unless you had no other options (but you said you did). I think it's fine to quit something if you find you don't like it and have better options. Sticking with something you hate just so you won't become a "quitter" sounds silly. If you have other good reasons, then it's a different story.

Huh?

 

[climbouthole]

Vjayk, I disagree with you and here's why.

I think you have an underdeveloped and short-sided perception of society. I think this is likely due to the socioeconomic bubble you've been sheltered in all your life. The recognition that the Taco Bell employee is equally deserving of available care as the computer scientist who just made a great app doesn't stem from some bleeding heart liberal emotions. Of course these "liberals" are just as tired, grumpy, and fed up with patient BS as they're working that ED shift; they're not bouncing off the walls ecstatic they could adjust the insulin of some guy with diabetes who eats cheeseburgers every day. But they do recognize their line of work as an investment in society, a society that has many inhabitants who comprise a system. They're investing in the health of the system and feel good about that when they want to reflect on "what they do".

Your perception doesn't recognize the role of what you see as average or below average citizenry. Why not just cut the fat, create a leaner, meaner society built only out of economically producing individuals? I think someone tried that once...

I think you need to and will learn a little humility and realize you and your family have an incomprehensible amount of resources, and that your life is a product of the same society that produces the Taco Bell employee's life.

 

[vjayk]

Vjayk, I disagree with you and here's why.

I think you have an underdeveloped and short-sided perception of society. I think this is likely due to the socioeconomic bubble you've been sheltered in all your life. The recognition that the Taco Bell employee is equally deserving of available care as the computer scientist who just made a great app doesn't stem from some bleeding heart liberal emotions. Of course these "liberals" are just as tired, grumpy, and fed up with patient BS as they're working that ED shift; they're not bouncing off the walls ecstatic they could adjust the insulin of some guy with diabetes who eats cheeseburgers every day. But they do recognize their line of work as an investment in society, a society that has many inhabitants who comprise a system. They're investing in the health of the system and feel good about that when they want to reflect on "what they do".

Your perception doesn't recognize the role of what you see as average or below average citizenry. Why not just cut the fat, create a leaner, meaner society built only out of economically producing individuals? I think someone tried that once...

I think you need to and will learn a little humility and realize you and your family have an incomprehensible amount of resources, and that your life is a product of the same society that produces the Taco Bell employee's life.

I do recognize everyone's role in society. I also recognize that each role has an attached value, which is different. Since you mentioned "investments in society": Do you invest equally in every stock regardless of its performance? Similarly, it doesn't make sense for society to invest the same in every person regardless of the return. The software entrepreneur you mentioned may be creating hundreds of jobs around the software he has designed. He is stimulating the economy by selling those apps worldwide. He may be developing software that will improve or even save the lives of millions. Does a taco bell employee do any of this? Which of these two lives is more important for the health of a society? If you could only save one, which one would be more prudent to save, from the perspective of society as a whole? You don't have to answer these questions, and I prefer that you don't, just think about it.

I am not saying that we need to "cut the fat". But you do realize that everyone can't survive. Even if we don't actively cut people out of the system, the free market/technology/nature/whatever else will. Even nature "understands" that not everyone is equally valuable and worth keeping (survival of the fittest). If you really care about the health of society as a whole, make your "investments" wisely.

Society is already like this, a successful entrepreneur would have greater access to better care than a taco bell employee simply because he/she can pay for it. Our existing system puts more value on those with more money. It also generally gives more money to those that provide more value- which is why doctors make more than taco bell employees. In a world where everyone's value is truly equal, the two would make the same. It's not my perception of society, it's how it is.

 

[erutha95]

I do recognize everyone's role in society. I also recognize that each role has an attached value, which is different. Since you mentioned "investments in society": Do you invest equally in every stock regardless of its performance? Similarly, it doesn't make sense for society to invest the same in every person regardless of the return. The software entrepreneur you mentioned may be creating hundreds of jobs around the software he has designed. He is stimulating the economy by selling those apps worldwide. He may be developing software that will improve or even save the lives of millions. Does a taco bell employee do any of this? Which of these two lives is more important for the health of a society? If you could only save one, which one would be more prudent to save, from the perspective of society as a whole? You don't have to answer these questions, and I prefer that you don't, just think about it.

I am not saying that we need to "cut the fat". But you do realize that everyone can't survive. Even if we don't actively cut people out of the system, the free market/technology/nature/whatever else will. Even nature "understands" that not everyone is equally valuable and worth keeping (survival of the fittest). If you really care about the health of society as a whole, make your "investments" wisely.

I think you overestimate the value of software entrepreneurs. A taco bell employee is doing a job to make money and feed their family, with no higher purpose. A person who writes an app in the hopes of striking it rich is engaged in the same endeavor. Neither of these vocations are on the same level as those who work to help others, like firefighters, doctors, etc. In fact, I would judge the software developer to be less valuable because unlike the taco bell worker with marginal abilities, the software entrepreneur has the potential to do something more significant with their life.

Social Darwinism is ugly, and Ayn Rand libertarianism is immature and selfish.

 

[vjayk]

I think you overestimate the value of software entrepreneurs. A taco bell employee is doing a job to make money and feed their family, with no higher purpose. A person who writes an app in the hopes of striking it rich is engaged in the same endeavor. Neither of these vocations are on the same level as those who work to help others, like firefighters, doctors, etc. In fact, I would judge the software developer to be less valuable because unlike the taco bell worker with marginal abilities, the software entrepreneur has the potential to do something more significant with their life.

Social Darwinism is ugly, and Ayn Rand libertarianism is immature and selfish.

I disagree with you in many ways. Maybe you haven't realized it, but all of those professions you listed as those which are on a higher level depend on software nowadays. How productive would you be today without an EMR, e-prescribing, software that drives MRI machines, CT scanners, laboratory machines, EKG reading software, etc etc etc. Police and firefighters also use plenty of software. All telecommunications nowadays relies on software. 911 call centers use software to locate people calling with an emergency. Safety and security systems worldwide are powered by software. What do you think powers the systems that monitor all the components of aircraft to ensure that planes don't crash? The military uses hundreds of pieces of software to ensure the safety and protection of our country. Not to mention that apps are used to train and test doctors, nurses, firefighters, and police.

Your statement about software entrepreneurs is frankly ignorant. Software developers have created dozens of applications that protect and save lives every day. A single piece of software that is used all over the world would have a much larger impact than a local doctor. And there are plenty of people who design software simply to help others. Lots of software is released free and open source, with no expectation of making money, including plenty of medical software, so the idea that all software developers are out to get rich is false.

Also, the idea that every doctor, firefighter, etc are doing that job in order to help others and nothing else is ridiculous. Very few human beings are not motivated by the desire for money. That includes the taco bell employee, the software entrepreneur, and the doctor.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I deleted that from my post and specifically asked people to not bring it back up, because posting it was a lapse in my judgment. And here it is again. You went as far to quote it from someone else's quote of my original post.

Seriously, you guys just seem to be looking for trouble. You're calling me the troll?

This is why no one's ever honest with anyone anymore. Because the minute you say something that might be the slightest bit controversial, people descend on you as if you're some sort of evil dictator.

Besides, I don't buy your outrage anyway. I've read the other things on this site, I know how people here think about a lot of things. You're not all Mother Teresas, lol.

So let's flesh out the idea. I am arguably the most nihilistic person I am aware of and certainly much more so than the average poster here. Why would saving a rich investment banker be any more satisfying than saving the janitor?

Why would saving the happily married mother of 3 be more satisfying than saving a single homeless junkie?
Why would making a "popular app" be more satisfying than anything Personally I'd rather have a really great morning BM than have my name attached to some silly piece of software. I've done coding. It's fun and rewarding to spin something out of nothing, but I don't really give a damn how it is received or even if the end user has any idea about how complex or sophisticated the coding was. but that's just me.....

You seem to be trying to establish some priorities here, and in some regards I agree with your sentiments regardless of how poorly worded they were. I disagree with any claim that I should care about something specifically because "it's human". I care (we all care) specifically when (and only when) it suits us to. IMO those who don't understand this are in some ways immature and shallow. "I give a damn because I want to" means a lot more than "I give a damn because I'm supposed to".

That said, you have to be either an M1, or even the fabled "MS0". I'm not really aware of anyone who gets out in the clinic in a real capacity and doesn't generate some bit of satisfaction from some aspect of the work. All this talk about saving people kinda misses the point entirely.

 

[climbouthole]

I do recognize everyone's role in society. I also recognize that each role has an attached value, which is different. Since you mentioned "investments in society": Do you invest equally in every stock regardless of its performance? Similarly, it doesn't make sense for society to invest the same in every person regardless of the return. The software entrepreneur you mentioned may be creating hundreds of jobs around the software he has designed. He is stimulating the economy by selling those apps worldwide. He may be developing software that will improve or even save the lives of millions. Does a taco bell employee do any of this? Which of these two lives is more important for the health of a society? If you could only save one, which one would be more prudent to save, from the perspective of society as a whole? You don't have to answer these questions, and I prefer that you don't, just think about it.

I am not saying that we need to "cut the fat". But you do realize that everyone can't survive. Even if we don't actively cut people out of the system, the free market/technology/nature/whatever else will. Even nature "understands" that not everyone is equally valuable and worth keeping (survival of the fittest). If you really care about the health of society as a whole, make your "investments" wisely.

Society is already like this, a successful entrepreneur would have greater access to better care than a taco bell employee simply because he/she can pay for it. Our existing system puts more value on those with more money. It also generally gives more money to those that provide more value- which is why doctors make more than taco bell employees. In a world where everyone's value is truly equal, the two would make the same. It's not my perception of society, it's how it is.

Two people don't need to have equal incomes for them or their contributions to be equal. Beyond that, I would argue you're trying to make the human lives we're ultimately talking about to be purely objective resources, which I don't agree with. I'll risk getting a little too philosophical and say that the human experience is two-fold; our objective existence and subjective experience, and your argument lies only in the former while the latter is actually the best part and where our "quality of life" comes from. Who gets to decide which person is living their life appropriately and should be treated? I'm not saying they should receive equal compensation, because one person may not care about income anyway and will judge their life and derive satisfaction elsewhere. I wouldn't invest in that man's company, but I'll fight for his equal right to acquire available health care.

EDIT: Just to round out my statement more, I'm also not saying that everyone should have perfectly equal access to health care. Those with more money can make higher demands and expect them sooner. But I do believe in doing the best we can to provide at least basic tenants of life which will allow for new generations, coming out of any socioeconomic status, to essentially put the work in and do what they want with themselves. I don't want to see wealth redistribution, and I don't want this for people so we can all "feel good and be happy" or just because they're human. I honestly think this objectively refines the system which will in turn produce more and better opportunities to be capitalized on, further improving things for all involved.

Boiling all of this down and the reason this all began, that's why I couldn't care less that the patient does for a living that I'm hypothetically working so hard to treat.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I disagree with you in many ways. Maybe you haven't realized it, but all of those professions you listed as those which are on a higher level depend on software nowadays. How productive would you be today without an EMR, e-prescribing, software that drives MRI machines, CT scanners, laboratory machines, EKG reading software, etc etc etc. Police and firefighters also use plenty of software. All telecommunications nowadays relies on software. Safety and security systems worldwide are powered by software. What do you think powers the systems that monitor all the components of aircraft to ensure that planes don't crash? The military uses hundreds of pieces of software to ensure the safety and protection of our country.

Your statement about software entrepreneurs is frankly ignorant. Software developers have created dozens of applications that protect and save lives every day.

Also, the idea that every doctor, firefighter, etc are doing that job in order to help others and nothing else is ridiculous. Very few human beings are not motivated by the desire for money. That includes the taco bell employee, the software entrepreneur, and the doctor.

They are involved. The same argument could be made for the taco bell guy who keeps each person in the loop fed. Or the guy who works at the factory which makes the plastics used in hospitals. This individual is just as involved in healthcare as your "Software entrepreneur". Before you fall back on your defense of "well you just don't know" I have my name on the patent for a rather large medical software package and was involved in its development and testing. I get it just fine 😉 I also get that you are exaggerating the role in order to justify and defend a position. In the app I'm involved in we could have swapped out the programmers weekly and had the very same end product we do today. They were pivotal in developing the app, but they were also entirely replaceable. The type of work you are describing is often high risk/low reward. Sure, there may be room for further software innovation, but you will be entering the feeding frenzy of people already working here and the odds of your idea hitting gold are pretty slim. The best you can really hope for is to take something that already exists and clean it up and hope someone is willing to pay for a prettier product.

 

[vjayk]

So let's flesh out the idea. I am arguably the most nihilistic person I am aware of and certainly much more so than the average poster here. Why would saving a rich investment banker be any more satisfying than saving the janitor?

Why would saving the happily married mother of 3 be more satisfying than saving a single homeless junkie?
Why would making a "popular app" be more satisfying than anything Personally I'd rather have a really great morning BM than have my name attached to some silly piece of software. I've done coding. It's fun and rewarding to spin something out of nothing, but I don't really give a damn how it is received or even if the end user has any idea about how complex or sophisticated the coding was. but that's just me.....

You seem to be trying to establish some priorities here, and in some regards I agree with your sentiments regardless of how poorly worded they were. I disagree with any claim that I should care about something specifically because "it's human". I care (we all care) specifically when (and only when) it suits us to. IMO those who don't understand this are in some ways immature and shallow. "I give a damn because I want to" means a lot more than "I give a damn because I'm supposed to".

That said, you have to be either an M1, or even the fabled "MS0". I'm not really aware of anyone who gets out in the clinic in a real capacity and doesn't generate some bit of satisfaction from some aspect of the work. All this talk about saving people kinda misses the point entirely.

Well I was talking about value to society as a whole, before. But if you're asking me about my personal satisfaction? I guess it depends on who I value more- meaning who has treated me better / given me more return on my investment of time. But if they are both strangers that I don't know and are both treating me the same and I am getting paid the same and all of that, then I guess I would choose the investment banker because I can derive more value from having an investment banker "owe me" than a janitor.

 

[vjayk]

Let's cut the arguments short. We're not really getting anywhere.

I'd just like to say that I don't believe that I have to value everyone the same just because "they're all humans" and they all have families or whatever. I do value people differently, as does everyone else. There is no person in world who values everyone the same, no matter what their reasons may be. Vilifying me for saying it is hypocritical.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Well I was talking about value to society as a whole, before. But if you're asking me about my personal satisfaction? I guess it depends on who I value more- meaning who has treated me better / given me more return on my investment of time. But if they are both strangers that I don't know and are both treating me the same and I am getting paid the same and all of that, then I guess I would choose the investment banker because I can derive more value from having an investment banker "owe me" than a janitor.

yeah... there is no way you are at all progressed in med school 😕

Having a patient "owe you" will result in you being forced into your plan B of software development so fast it will make your head spin . The answer I was fishing for was "neither". Your satisfaction in any such case is internally derived. Let's say you make a great app. Would you rather make an app that makes you a millionaire by letting snot-nosed kids play bumper-scrabble on their phones, or one that lets you pay this months rent by allowing a major hospital to catalog EMR results and further EBM? Honestly, do either of these things really matter? If you think your future work's interactions with people on different "tiers" of society will impact your level of satisfaction at all you are delusional (or.... you will be up to the point where the first investment banker pisses on your shoes regardless of whether you're the IT guy or the doctor).

You seem to be approaching this as someone with no skin in the game and who has never actually had to work for something.

 

[vjayk]

yeah... there is no way you are at all progressed in med school 😕

Having a patient "owe you" will result in you being forced into your plan B of software development so fast it will make your head spin . The answer I was fishing for was "neither". Your satisfaction in any such case is internally derived. Let's say you make a great app. Would you rather make an app that makes you a millionaire by letting snot-nosed kids play bumper-scrabble on their phones, or one that lets you pay this months rent by allowing a major hospital to catalog EMR results and further EBM? Honestly, do either of these things really matter? If you think your future work's interactions with people on different "tiers" of society will impact your level of satisfaction at all you are delusional (or.... you will be up to the point where the first investment banker pisses on your shoes regardless of whether you're the IT guy or the doctor).

You seem to be approaching this as someone with no skin in the game and who has never actually had to work for something.

Of course it's internally derived. I derive satisfaction from things I derive satisfaction from. Why I do is up to me. I don't think there is any wrong or right way to derive satisfaction. It's an individual preference. Sure the investment banker may piss on my shoes, I don't care. It doesn't matter to me that he doesn't value me. I don't have some sort of ego where everyone must respect and value me. I know everyone doesn't and I don't value everyone else either. That's normal and I'm ok with it. The people that think everyone should value them just because they are human and exist are delusional!

Edit: By the way, I know doctors who have gotten a number of favors from very rich patients, so the concept of the investment banker owing me isn't ridiculous. I never said anything about the ethics of the matter.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I'm not entirely sure how that response relates to my post.... Other than keying in on 1 phrase and then swinging for left field 😕
You seem to be just railing against the general tone of disagreement with your position now.

 

[vjayk]

I'm not entirely sure how that response relates to my post.... Other than keying in on 1 phrase and then swinging for left field 😕
You seem to be just railing against the general tone of disagreement with your position now.

I don't understand what you want me to respond to?

 

[climbouthole]

. double post

 

[climbouthole]

The people that think everyone should value them just because they are human and exist are delusional

I think you're still missing it because that's not the argument being put forth. Just that it's not up to you, nor should you care about trying to value the patient's because it's not black and white. Therefore what they do or what social tier they exist in should have 0 influence on the satisfaction you derive.

 

[vjayk]

I think you're still missing it because that's not the argument being put forth. Just that it's not up to you, nor should you care about trying to value the patient's because it's not black and white. Therefore what they do or what social tier they exist in should have 0 influence on the satisfaction you derive.

I don't know how you can tell me how I should derive my satisfaction. What people do definitely matters to me. Maybe it doesn't to you, but it does matter to me, and has mattered to people throughout history. That's why we have social tiers, classes, castes, etc to begin with. That's why we have celebrities. On the other hand things like gender or race or hair color or height do not matter to me at all. I think those things are irrelevant. But I don't think what someone does with their life is irrelevant.

 

[climbouthole]

I'm not trying to dictate that, just tell you why I see that as illogical. You did ask for advice on this matter, no?

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't know how you can tell me how I should derive my satisfaction. What people do definitely matters to me. What social tier they are in matters too. Maybe it doesn't to you, but it does matter to me, and has mattered to people throughout history. That's why we have social tiers, classes, castes, etc to begin with

that isn't what he did.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The OP:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoxRFOr_sQ0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[vjayk]

I'm not trying to dictate that, just tell you why I see that as illogical. You did ask for advice on this matter, no?

OK, I see your point. I don't agree with it, but I do see why you would think that way. I actually didn't ask for advice on that matter, people just started a discussion about it from one thing I said. I actually asked advice about changing careers.

 

[vjayk]

The OP:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoxRFOr_sQ0[/YOUTUBE]

Very nice 🙂

 

[erutha95]

I know everyone doesn't and I don't value everyone else either. That's normal and I'm ok with it. The people that think everyone should value them just because they are human and exist are delusional!

I think we found our answer. If you don't care about (or value) other people, medicine is not the right field for you. You should drop out.

 

[vjayk]

I think we found our answer. If you don't care about (or value) other people, medicine is not the right field for you. You should drop out.

I didn't say I don't care about other people, I said I don't automatically care about every living human being equally just because they are alive and a human being. There are some human beings I care about a whole lot and others I detest. I think you would agree that the same applies to you and just about every other human on the planet.

That being said, you are right about medicine not being the right field for me, for many other reasons.

 

[hughnguyen22]

Thanks for the advice.

To clarify though, I didn't do any shadowing. I didn't research what was necessary to get into med school or anything, I simply took a bio major in college because I had always been good at biology, and wasn't really sure what else I wanted to do. By the end of college, I started to look at job options and realized med school was a viable option for a solid career. It was just one of many options. I took the MCAT and applied to med schools- honestly I didn't put very much effort it into it and didn't expect to actually get in. I actually didn't study for the MCAT much at all, but did decently well because I had been an excellent student in bio, chem and physics. I ended up getting into only one school, where I have a good deal of family influence.

Upon getting in, I got pumped up by the fact that so many people around me were struggling to get in, including my ex-girlfriend who still hasn't made it into med school 2 years later. Also, many people, family included, were impressed by me going to med school. That definitely increased the value of med school in my head. Yes, my thinking was foolish, but I was younger and less experienced in life at that time.

Once I got in, I just kept going. I didn't want to be a med school dropout. Now I've gotten to the point where my motivation has completely run dry. I don't even care to stay for that reason anymore.

I am jealous of your family connection. If caring for patients is not your passion, move on to software engineering. You seem smart. You will be successful anywhere.

 

[sazerac]

I do recognize everyone's role in society. I also recognize that each role has an attached value, which is different. Since you mentioned "investments in society": Do you invest equally in every stock regardless of its performance? Similarly, it doesn't make sense for society to invest the same in every person regardless of the return. The software entrepreneur you mentioned may be creating hundreds of jobs around the software he has designed. He is stimulating the economy by selling those apps worldwide. He may be developing software that will improve or even save the lives of millions. Does a taco bell employee do any of this? Which of these two lives is more important for the health of a society? If you could only save one, which one would be more prudent to save, from the perspective of society as a whole? You don't have to answer these questions, and I prefer that you don't, just think about it.

I find it ironic that many professional investors, myself included, do value each stock equally and simply purchase low cost index mutual funds. I'd never thought of the analogy to my (future) patients before. Sure some of them are probably duds and in retrospect weren't worth my investment, but who am I to judge? You never really know when one might take off anyway. And I carry a fundamental belief in the system as a whole, while not worrying about the individual. They are all important to me. This is really pretty profound.

(The double-irony is that I made my first fortune as a software engineer writing incredibly popular computer programs with a user base in the millions.)