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So we are talking about med school being a scam now, not however many years ago. What's the cost now, what's the interest now? What are today's numbers?
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Medical School is such a scam
Started by miacomet
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And what about the retirement and pensions teachers get and lifelong healthcare?
You're very mocking of teachers.
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I mean every doctor who is employed will usually get a employer match.
For example, i get 4% of my income put in as a match.
Let’s round that off to 15k a year of employer contribution, 30 year career, 6 percent annual return - you end with 1.27M of contribution purely from your employer.
I mean…really…if i truly worked for 30 years, my retirement accounts will be worth a lot more than any teacher’s pension.
In 2008 when the market tanked many physicians stocks were terrible and they had to keep working. People with pensions, not so much. How many years for a teacher to qualify for a pension?
ermm...so? Markets eventually recover. Work for Kaiser if you want a pension. But most bear markets last for 1-2 years, a globally well diversified portfolio should eventually recover.
I get the exact same pension teachers get so I left that out. And infact given the difference in what they will get out of it and what I do, this will push things much much more in the "doctors have it better" direction.
As for insurance, the monthly premium for a teacher is right at $100/month.
A Medicare supplement plan in SC is going to run about $150/month.
A $600/year cost difference isn't going to make an appreciable difference in those overall numbers.
Nice try though.
Since I know this is coming, we'll pretend I don't have access to the state retirement program.
Between my contribution to that, my 401k, and my employers 401k match (which I would get if not enrolled in the pension), I'm getting around 60k/year in retirement savings.. If we assume 6% returns across a 35 year career, we end up with 6.6 million dollars. Let's say that I live for 30 years after I retire (I would be 95 at that point) with no additional growth from that retirement money. That's 220k pre-tax every year.
The state retirement plan pays you 50% of your highest 12 consecutive quarters if you meet the requirements for full benefits. Let's take the 63k/year at the end for the teacher and use that. So around 32k/year until they die. Now a teacher who started right at age 22 could retire with full benefits in my state at 56 years old. If we assume they also live to be 95 (we'll say 96 so the math is easier), total amount from that pension is 1.3 million.
So as I'm growing tired of repeating, its not even close.
Between my contribution to that, my 401k, and my employers 401k match (which I would get if not enrolled in the pension), I'm getting around 60k/year in retirement savings.. If we assume 6% returns across a 35 year career, we end up with 6.6 million dollars. Let's say that I live for 30 years after I retire (I would be 95 at that point) with no additional growth from that retirement money. That's 220k pre-tax every year.
The state retirement plan pays you 50% of your highest 12 consecutive quarters if you meet the requirements for full benefits. Let's take the 63k/year at the end for the teacher and use that. So around 32k/year until they die. Now a teacher who started right at age 22 could retire with full benefits in my state at 56 years old. If we assume they also live to be 95 (we'll say 96 so the math is easier), total amount from that pension is 1.3 million.
So as I'm growing tired of repeating, its not even close.
Lol, thank you for proving my point.
At my alma mater loans went from around 160k for 4 years to 240k for 4 years. Interest rate is unchanged.
So let's be generous and say that adds an extra 200k in cost across the life of the loan. That's a drop in the bucket for lifetime physician earnings.
No, I'm mocking the stupidity of using income to determine hourly rate across a lifetime that includes training.
Says the poster insisting that teachers have it better than physicians in terms of monetary gain.
How many times are you planning to move the goalposts in this discussion?
You all said it's different now. So I'm asking for now numbers.
You said 20 dollars is how much teachers make an hour. That was mocking them.
Sorry, my math showed it was $26/hour so I exaggerated slightly to make it work with the post I was responding to. Would you like me to go back and edit that or have you had enough of being proven wrong again and again to concede you were wrong and let this go?
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Ask teachers who they think are better off, them or physicians.
I dated a teacher once. She was broke AF.
To be fair so are many attending physicians 🤣
That’s usually poor life choices. Most physicians have the ability to become millionaires within 5-10 years of being attendings.
The level of responsibility is much less.
So are you finally conceding that they don’t make more? And now arguing that our job is tougher?
Honestly…. My job is pretty easy compared to a day care teacher. But my job is pretty easy compared to someone working at McDonalds too - fast food is tough work i feel.
And if you do it right 10m at retirement.
Was your initial argument about responsibility or pay? In many cases, responsibility comes with higher pay. With that said, give me an ED full of patients over a classroom full of students any day of the week.
To accuse a poster of denigrating teachers and then to claim that it's a low level of responsibility to ensure the (increasingly imperiled) physical and mental wellbeing of our children while also shepherding them along their academic path in the setting of increased public scrutiny...that's "rich"
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Do you try to be a troll or does it just come naturally to you?
Back to the lecture at hand.
nah...
Agree... I like my ~280k brand new home (same home would cost 1.5--2 mil in southern California). I can visit NY or CA whenever the f... I want. In fact, this year, I will spend 5 days in NY, 5 days in the Bahamas, 4 days in Barcelona and 8 days in Italy (Rome and probably Florence), and a few days in south FL where I have relatives. It's nice when your mortgage payment is akin to a luxury car payment.
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And anytime if your schedule allows it... ED docs and hospitalists like myself can easily find time in our schedule to do that.
I think medicine is GOOD. I am not aware of that many gigs out there that I could make 400k w/o working myself to death.
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People won't believe you if you tell them you make 200k working only 6 nights/month.
Medicine is not sunshine and rainbow, but we have it better than >95% of the country.
You really think people who make 50k/yr can put a lot $$$ into retirement!
The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?
Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.
archive.nytimes.com
This is super interesting, thanks for postingThe Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?
Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.archive.nytimes.com
It is interesting, thought it worth pointing out that it says "live in households in the top 1%".
So, an office clerk that works in the legal office of their lawyer spouse (whose income puts them in the top 1%) would also get representation on this graphic.
That doesn't invalidate it, but it should be considered in the interpretation.
Idk where nurses (meaning RNs) make 400k/yr. The highest I'm aware of is in California , night shift, weekend pay after 31 years of work, 8 hour shifts 11P-7A (Kaiser NorCal). That will max you out at 275k if you charge 5 nights a week and work every weekend in your 50s. Most people probably don't want that... and you have to live in Cali to do that. Otherwise you're talking travel nursing which isn't super compatible with enjoying your non-work life unless you want to be permanently itinerant, sucks to work anyway, and travel isn't paying 300k+ rates anymore on a consistent basis.
Plus, you have to want to be a nurse. I suspect that most people posting here wouldn't want to be. Heck, I don't anymore, which is why I'm here. Kinda tired of being the person permanently assigned to being punched, groped, verbally assaulted, and outranked by every other member of the team.
Grass ain't greener, folks.
Plus, you have to want to be a nurse. I suspect that most people posting here wouldn't want to be. Heck, I don't anymore, which is why I'm here. Kinda tired of being the person permanently assigned to being punched, groped, verbally assaulted, and outranked by every other member of the team.
Grass ain't greener, folks.
Most teachers are in the pension system, their contribution is taken out of their paycheck automatically.
From someone on the fringes of this discussion, I'll offer this perspective - I'll retire in about 2 and a half years from the FD and my "retirement job" will be as an ED or flight nurse working 2 days per week. I made plenty of money as a firefighter, will make an absurd amount of money for 2 days per week once you factor in my pension, and have lived and will continue to live comfortably for the rest of my life.
That said, there are still times I wish I could go back to that day in 2000 when I abandoned my plan for medical school and went to the FD instead.
Sometimes, it's about more than what makes financial sense.
Fire fighters make significantly more than teachers though right?
Educate me, what’s the starting salary of a fire fighter? What’s the salary 5-10 years in usually?
How many years of service before you get a pension and how much is the monthly benefit for a pension after 20 or 30 years of working?
That’s what I did. I finished paramedic school, which I had started after getting EMT-B and hunting a firefighter job. During paramedic school, I decided I wanted to go to med school and my lead instructor tried to convince me to join the fire service, arguing that I’d be a battalion chief within x years, etc. Figured I’d kick myself rest of my life if I didn‘t try. I worked as a volunteer FF/medic while finishing pre-med courses and loved it and now I’m kind of but not 100% sure I made the right choice.
I just checked the contract for our teachers, looks like it's fairly close. Obviously they need a degree though, and it takes them longer to get to the top.
I think the comparison is a bit off.
There are kids graduating from college making 85k to start.
Med school isn’t a scam cause what you get at the end is a known. There isn’t a switcheroo.
I would Encourage my kids to go into medicine if they liked it but I would push incredibly hard against emergency medicine.
I will say my best friend is an optometrist and he says he wouldn’t let his kids do optometry. I’ll also say he built a super successful practice and now sold it. He made derm type PE money in his sale and he kept the building.
There are kids graduating from college making 85k to start.
Med school isn’t a scam cause what you get at the end is a known. There isn’t a switcheroo.
I would Encourage my kids to go into medicine if they liked it but I would push incredibly hard against emergency medicine.
I will say my best friend is an optometrist and he says he wouldn’t let his kids do optometry. I’ll also say he built a super successful practice and now sold it. He made derm type PE money in his sale and he kept the building.
You think private equity is bad, imagine being directly employed by Wal-Mart or Costso.
Optometry is a pretty neat field, but the business end can be pretty bad. My dad was a solo practice optometrist, for context.
Financially, medicine is GOOD.
I will reiterate what you said above. I just purchased a house last year for 280k and I can literally pay off that house in 2 yrs, max out all my retirement accounts and still have the typical mid-to-upper middle class lifestyle.
Throw some numbers.
It’s entirely location based, but I’m at 96k base and they’re at 92k.. Midwest state, capital seat and major metro area. Our area cities all pay significantly higher than even the surrounding counties though.
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96k base is starting or after a certain number of years? How many years have you worked to get to this base of 96k.
What’s the monthly benefit for the pension? How many years of service for this particular monthly benefit? Can you only get it after hitting 65 or as soon as you get out of the system?
Just to be clear, I'm saying despite my decent salary and the life I made on it, there are still times when I wish I could go back and go to medical school..
My pension will be 60k per year starting when I turn 48. Combined with a part time RN job, I'll be doing fairly well in retirement working 2 days per week.
Keep in mind that a lot of teachers only work 9 months out of the year.
Firefighter salaries vary significantly by region. We start them off at $50k/yr at my department. Fire chiefs make >$120k. Seattle starts at $82k/yr currently.
I know my buddy worked for one of the big lenscrafter type shops til he opened up for himself.
Most of the ODs who work at walmart or whatever do so as ICs or rent space. I am quite familiar. That being said by buddy sold his practice for enough that he is basically retired in his 40s.
Teachers are one of the worse jobs. Kids don't listen, parents don't care, admin doesn't support. People who go into this profession to affect the next generation start to realize that they are stuck til they hit pension or quit. Lets not compare a doc's job/salary to a teacher's salary. I rather make 80K as a doc than 80K as a teacher assuming no debt.
EM docs have it good and better than 90% of the professions. To compare the top end salary as a nurse (>200K) and bottom MD salary is just dumb. Compare the low end and top end of both is more of a fair comparison. my 1st job started at 400K for 40hrs/wk. I eventually hit 600K working about 40hrs/wk. I currently make high end NSG salary working less than 40hrs/wk. I have many partners who make more than I do working even less.
EM is what you want to make of it. You can avoid working nights and weekends if you are willing to sacrifice salary and some regional flexibility. You can schedule off when you want. I can't remember missing any of my kids big activities in my life. I took 2 weeks off all the time for vacations. No way can a teacher's job have this flexibility and actually not many fields in medicine can. I am going camping for 1 week for my kid's school event and 3 other docs I know with kids (Anesthesiologist, Surgeon, Surgeon) can't go b/c they all work. This is my 3rd kid going through the camp and I have been to each.
EM sucks and there are alot that sucks, but so do many jobs that do not afford the $$$, time, flexibility. Really, I would not change fields if I had to do it over. All specialist complains that their jobs suck.
EM docs have it good and better than 90% of the professions. To compare the top end salary as a nurse (>200K) and bottom MD salary is just dumb. Compare the low end and top end of both is more of a fair comparison. my 1st job started at 400K for 40hrs/wk. I eventually hit 600K working about 40hrs/wk. I currently make high end NSG salary working less than 40hrs/wk. I have many partners who make more than I do working even less.
EM is what you want to make of it. You can avoid working nights and weekends if you are willing to sacrifice salary and some regional flexibility. You can schedule off when you want. I can't remember missing any of my kids big activities in my life. I took 2 weeks off all the time for vacations. No way can a teacher's job have this flexibility and actually not many fields in medicine can. I am going camping for 1 week for my kid's school event and 3 other docs I know with kids (Anesthesiologist, Surgeon, Surgeon) can't go b/c they all work. This is my 3rd kid going through the camp and I have been to each.
EM sucks and there are alot that sucks, but so do many jobs that do not afford the $$$, time, flexibility. Really, I would not change fields if I had to do it over. All specialist complains that their jobs suck.
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