Medical School is such a scam

[BoardingDoc]

2: Medical School
• 80 hours/week (that's 2 full-time jobs)

Lol wut? I don't know about y'all but I certainly didn't spend 80 hrs a week on medical school.

59.6 hrs/wk after residency on average? I work 29.42 based on the quick math I just did. Literally less than half of this number.

I could continue picking this graph apart, but again, this is why doctors falls prey to things like the NP lobby. They see s*** like this and glom on and distribute it absolutely everywhere. We see this and are like "umm, this may help my cause but that's not actually accurate."

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[cyanide12345678]

2: Medical School
• 80 hours/week (that's 2 full-time jobs)

Lol wut? I don't know about y'all but I certainly didn't spend 80 hrs a week on medical school.

59.6 hrs/wk after residency on average? I work 29.42 based on the quick math I just did. Literally less than half of this number.

I could continue picking this graph apart, but again, this is why doctors falls prey to things like the NP lobby. They see s*** like this and glom on and distribute it absolutely everywhere. We see this and are like "umm, this may help my cause but that's not actually accurate."

Distribute away. Lets spread these lies

 

[PikminOC]

2: Medical School
• 80 hours/week (that's 2 full-time jobs)

Lol wut? I don't know about y'all but I certainly didn't spend 80 hrs a week on medical school.

59.6 hrs/wk after residency on average? I work 29.42 based on the quick math I just did. Literally less than half of this number.

I could continue picking this graph apart, but again, this is why doctors falls prey to things like the NP lobby. They see s*** like this and glom on and distribute it absolutely everywhere. We see this and are like "umm, this may help my cause but that's not actually accurate."

It was obviously written prior to the changes in hours. You can crunch the numbers with current numbers if you'd like.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It was obviously written prior to the changes in hours. You can crunch the numbers with current numbers if you'd like.

I did comparing an average FP with an average bachelor's only teacher in my state and assuming both have the average student loan burden for the respective professions.

Doctors still come out way ahead, and its not even close.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

Agree. Physicians come out ahead. I think. Depends on the point in time. And most importantly, how much a teacher or doctor spends. Is ahead solely financial? Either way, I don’t have regrets on the physician path, but have the utmost respect for the teachers in my life. Higher levels of education typically correlate with higher income. Some say though that ignorance is bliss.

 

[WorkNoteEmergency]

Yeah that graph is the new media pattern of fuzzy math clickbait argument. I am a fan of the argument comparing hours and dollars physicians spend to get a salary comparable to VP of virtual widget sales development or some such, or more on point, Chief Value Officer like my hospital system has.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

That’s a problem with EM. If you find the right outpatient primary care setup you can make almost as much as EM without the nights, weekends and holidays. Not sure if the extra compensation is worth the trade off.

You have to like the work. I think the vast majority of EPs would find outpatient primary care boring to an extreme degree.

 

[PikminOC]

Yeah that graph is the new media pattern of fuzzy math clickbait argument. I am a fan of the argument comparing hours and dollars physicians spend to get a salary comparable to VP of virtual widget sales development or some such, or more on point, Chief Value Officer like my hospital system has.

It was made a long time ago before even work hour restrictions were in place.

 

[PikminOC]

I did comparing an average FP with an average bachelor's only teacher in my state and assuming both have the average student loan burden for the respective professions.

Doctors still come out way ahead, and its not even close.

Walk me thru the numbers.

 

[WilcoWorld]

@Heist I think the burden of proof is on you. You're the one making a counterintuitive claim that does not accord with our life experiences, so I think you're the one who needs to "walk [us] through the numbers".

I'm willing to be convinced that oranges are actually blue, but I expect the person making that assertion to do the proving. I don't feel a need to prove to him that, nope, contrary to his link, oranges are actually orange.

 

[PikminOC]

@Heist I think the burden of proof is on you. You're making the counterintuitive claim that does not accord with our life experiences, so I think you're the one who needs to "walk [us] through the numbers".

I'm willing to be convinced that oranges are actually blue, but I expect the person making that assertion to do the proving. I don't feel a need to prove to him that, nope, contrary to his link, oranges are actually orange.

I thought the proof that was there was good as it takes into account the massive hours physicians do for training and thereafter. If the numbers are different as people here are saying and they've crunched them as they've said already, it should be easy for them to show their work. Work they said they already did.

It's a very different way at looking at what we do.

 

[bravotwozero]

I’m about to pay off a $400k house I bought 3 years ago. No way in hell I could have done that on a teachers pay lol

 

[PikminOC]

I’m about to pay off a $400k house I bought 3 years ago. No way in hell I could have done that on a teachers pay lol

It's not about the pay. It's about the hours. Did no one look at the link? Pay per hour with all the hours.

 

[bravotwozero]

It's not about the pay. It's about the hours. Did no one look at the link? Pay per hour with all the hours.

Given what I just mentioned, even if what you claim is true, it is trivial to the point of not being relevant.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It's not about the pay. It's about the hours. Did no one look at the link? Pay per hour with all the hours.

That link is utter garbage.

It uses residency hours to be a surgeon but pay that is 50k less than average FPs (one of the lowest paid specialties) make. The link says basically 200k/year while starting general surgeon salary in my neck of the woods is around 350k or so. That extra 150k/year alone would make that math look very different. Same thing if we pretended that FPs start at 200k but instead of 20,000 hours of residency used the more like 8-10,000 hours for FP residency.

It also assumes 20 year loan repayment, and I don't know a single person who does that. And until very recently a large number of us refinanced at lower interest rates, often with a shorter than the standard 10 year term. My wife refinanced at 3% and cut 1 year off the term in 2017.

It also assumes med school is 73 hours per week for 52 weeks across 4 years. I know of literally know one who did that. That's no time off at all and no early graduation. Literally 48 months of 73 hour weeks without break.

I also don't think most physicians have 100k in undergraduate loans. I'm sure some do but there's no way that's the norm.

It also doesn't say what hours it uses to calculate lifetime working hours for teachers but I'd wager they underestimate that.

So no, you can't just say to look at the link because the link sucks.

 

[BoardingDoc]

It was obviously written prior to the changes in hours. You can crunch the numbers with current numbers if you'd like.

Changes in hours? You mean for residents? Not sure what you mean. I don't think that it changes my point however.

 

[PikminOC]

Changes in hours? You mean for residents? Not sure what you mean. I don't think that it changes my point however.

It does as the calculations are based on hours. Did no one look at it?

 

[PikminOC]

That link is utter garbage.

It uses residency hours to be a surgeon but pay that is 50k less than average FPs (one of the lowest paid specialties) make. The link says basically 200k/year while starting general surgeon salary in my neck of the woods is around 350k or so. That extra 150k/year alone would make that math look very different. Same thing if we pretended that FPs start at 200k but instead of 20,000 hours of residency used the more like 8-10,000 hours for FP residency.

It also assumes 20 year loan repayment, and I don't know a single person who does that. And until very recently a large number of us refinanced at lower interest rates, often with a shorter than the standard 10 year term. My wife refinanced at 3% and cut 1 year off the term in 2017.

It also assumes med school is 73 hours per week for 52 weeks across 4 years. I know of literally know one who did that. That's no time off at all and no early graduation. Literally 48 months of 73 hour weeks without break.

I also don't think most physicians have 100k in undergraduate loans. I'm sure some do but there's no way that's the norm.

It also doesn't say what hours it uses to calculate lifetime working hours for teachers but I'd wager they underestimate that.

So no, you can't just say to look at the link because the link sucks.

So with your numbers what does it come out to? I'm asking for the numbers you came out to. The same way the link did. I'm asking for specifics.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

So with your numbers what does it come out to? I'm asking for the numbers you came out to. The same way the link did. I'm asking for specifics.

You need to let go of this.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I thought the proof that was there was good as it takes into account the massive hours physicians do for training and thereafter. If the numbers are different as people here are saying and they've crunched them as they've said already, it should be easy for them to show their work. Work they said they already did.

It's a very different way at looking at what we do.

Fine.

Med school hours - probably averages around 50/week - minimal hours last year and most hours during third year. Not too bad during first two years. That’s 10k hours.

Residency - 60 hours a week average x 48 weeks x 3 years - 8640 hours - income 55k x 3 - 165k

36 hours per week roughly, 12 x 12 shifts per month, 25 year career as ER doctor averaging $200 per hour- 43000 hours. 8.6M income

Total hours - 61640

Total income - 8.76M

Hourly rate - $142 - this is without benefits, without 401k employer contributions, hsa contributions etc.

Just very basic back of the napkin math for an average ER doctor with a reasonable length career

 

[BoardingDoc]

It does as the calculations are based on hours. Did no one look at it?

...?
I commented on medical school hours and my own personal hours worked as an attending. That has literally nothing to do with hour caps imposed on residency training.

At this point, I can't tell if you're trolling or literally unable to understand the numerous flaws in the infographic you posted.

 

[gutonc]

So with your numbers what does it come out to? I'm asking for the numbers you came out to. The same way the link did. I'm asking for specifics.

So you’re asking for more spurious “statistics“? Because the assumptions made in that link aren’t based in reality.

Any M1/2 spending 80 hours a week on studying is either not cut out for medicine, or lying about the work they put in. And 80h a week in clinicals is only true for slightly more than half of M3/4. Since teachers need a bachelor’s and master’s degrees, let’s agree that the first 6 years of education for both groups are a push in time and money.

In 2021 the average medicine resident made ~$61k, while starting teacher salaries ranged from $35-50k. So for M3-R3 we can say the med student/resident makes $37k/yr while the teacher is making roughly $5k/yr more over that time period. Teachers aren’t generally pulling 80h a week, but neither is the average medicine resident over the course of 3 years. Based on what I’ve seen my kid’s teachers and friends who are teachers working, it’s probably a modest edge to the teachers, but not anything close to half what residents are doing.

So now let’s jump straight into working after residency. Again, I’m assuming IM as the comparator here. If you put all general IM comp in a bucket and pull out the average, $250k is a decent place to start. And that’s for under 50 hours a week, for 46 weeks a year. Median teacher salary across the board in the US is ~60k. No matter how you slice and dice it, even adding the extra 6-8 weeks of time off that teachers get, the median physician is so far ahead of the median teacher that it’s not even a competition.

You’re welcome for the specifics. If you want the hourly, I gave you the data, do the math yourself.

 

[gutonc]

...?
I commented on medical school hours and my own personal hours worked as an attending. That has literally nothing to do with hour caps imposed on residency training.

At this point, I can't tell if you're trolling or literally unable to understand the numerous flaws in the infographic you posted.

 

[PikminOC]

And in regards to taxes we get taxes up the wazoo too.. this all gets back to op question. Medical school is a scam currently imo.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

And in regards to taxes we get taxes up the wazoo too.. this all gets back to op question. Medical school is a scam currently imo.

Except most times is not

There's no other way to be guaranteed a solid 6 figure income in the world today.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

This guy is just bitter AF at his career choice.

 

[DarkHorizon]

And in regards to taxes we get taxes up the wazoo too.. this all gets back to op question. Medical school is a scam currently imo.

Time to get out my dude.

 

[PikminOC]

Time to get out my dude.

Get out of what?

 

[DarkHorizon]

Get out of what?

Medicine. You seem very unhappy with the raw deal.

 

[sirspamalot]

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Medicine. You seem very unhappy with the raw deal.

And out of this forum.

 

[miacomet]

Agree. Physicians come out ahead. I think. Depends on the point in time. And most importantly, how much a teacher or doctor spends. Is ahead solely financial? Either way, I don’t have regrets on the physician path, but have the utmost respect for the teachers in my life. Higher levels of education typically correlate with higher income. Some say though that ignorance is bliss.

We don't come out ahead of plumbers, electricians etc who can start work younger and build their own business.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I’m about to pay off a $400k house I bought 3 years ago. No way in hell I could have done that on a teachers pay lol

Yeah and the fact is if you live on 70k while doing resident hours for three years you can do a lot

And in regards to taxes we get taxes up the wazoo too.. this all gets back to op question. Medical school is a scam currently imo.

It depends on where you live as a physician and there are deductions like individual 401k

 

[sirspamalot]

That depends. If you're a specialist, you sure do. And you get much better working hours. No question about it. I don't know many plumbers making 900 W2 type income, but maybe you do. The guys that do work their asses off and have a mountain of headaches (employees, customers, business issues) that never end.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

We don't come out ahead of plumbers, electricians etc who can start work younger and build their own business.

Incorrect. Not sure how you developed this misconception. I’ve previously worked in both commercial and residential construction. Electricians and plumbers don’t come anywhere close to the salary or net worth of physicians. Just because you get an electrician or plumber bill for a seemingly high hourly rate doesn’t mean that is their average compensation. Owning their own business or starting slightly earlier doesn’t significantly alter the calculus.

 

[PikminOC]

Incorrect. Not sure how you developed this misconception. I’ve previously worked in both commercial and residential construction. Electricians and plumbers don’t come anywhere close to the salary or net worth of physicians. Just because you get an electrician or plumber bill for a seemingly high hourly rate doesn’t mean that is their average compensation. Owning their own business or starting slightly earlier doesn’t significantly alter the calculus.

It does. And then they get a group of plumbers etc to help with their business. You guys aren't thinking about this from a different angle in terms of TIME. And it's not slightly earlier. It about a decade earlier. We do a lot more school. And a lot more hours. A ridiculous number of hours.

 

[PikminOC]

Yeah and the fact is if you live on 70k while doing resident hours for three years you can do a lot


It depends on where you live as a physician and there are deductions like individual 401k

Individual 401 k is limited. Very limited. Only 20 k. Peanuts.

Yeah and the fact is if you live on 70k while doing resident hours for three years you can do a lot


It depends on where you live as a physician and there are deductions like individual 401k

 

[WilcoWorld]

Individual 401 k is limited. Very limited. Only 20 k. Peanuts.

Dude, I don't know a single teacher who would call 20k "peanuts". I think you just undermined your own point.

 

[sirspamalot]

 

[Iamnew2]

"Med school is a scam" lol

I make over 300k and work less days than a teacher with a master's degree.

I take pride in the knowledge that I am an expert in emergency medicine. The noctors can let their inferiority complex shine. I laugh at them while i sit in first class to Europe.

If you don't want pediatrician money, don't choose pediatrics.

I make more than that but could never allow myself to pay like 6k for first class. That is the real crime! Sorry had to comment on that. Carry on!

 

[PikminOC]

Dude, I don't know a single teacher who would call 20k "peanuts". I think you just undermined your own point.

Peanuts in terms of decreasing taxes.

 

[Iamnew2]

Medical school isn’t the scam but the US health care system is. There are some of us in EM making $400-$500k annually but these days, that is the exception, rather than the rule. To get to this point, we scraped and clawed through undergrad, some of us after undergrad, spending the extra time to do prerequisite courses, amass the “I love medicine” volunteer and shadow, etc. Follow this with 7-8+ years of med school and residency, amassing 6 figure debt. Now take a look around at your contemporaries, other smart motivated people, who chose different career paths, and they have similar incomes, don’t have to contort themselves and their schedules to take a 2 week vacation, get to wake up and go to bed at the same time every day. Sure many of them took risks and struggled to get to where they are but they also were able to save for retirement, start paying off mortgages in their 20’s and in their mid 50’s, my age, decide if they want to work to cushion retirement, whereas I am trying to decide if I want to keep working in the ED, knowing that each month I continue to do so, I subtract a certain amount from my life expectancy.

The US health care system profits from our professionalism and commitment to our patients and our colleagues. At the end, the system is going to pay some of you $500k to be there for the guy who has some chest twinges while he’s sipping on some bourbon watching the game after his day of Zoom meetings in his kitchen at his $600k job. That’s the scam.

This is the delusion that many in medicine have and it's sooo innacurate. There are plenty of doctors with laid back schedules who make a significant chunk of change, myself included. Yes I agree that the path is long and probably needs to be trimmed - but very few jobs provide the comfort, security and money potential that doctors have. Yes there are others in other professions who do well but to think that all our "peers" are making millions and paying their homes in their 20's is delusional - how many people do you know who have paid their mortgage in their 20's, and get paid 500k zipping bourbon and doing zoom meetings? The thousands of techs who recently got laid off, many of them with excellent qualifications and advanced degrees, goes to show you that many outside of medicine struggle and have it hard, despite being highly qualified, and to think that everyone else outside of medicine lives in a bubble of puppies and flowers is wacko.
My ex husband had so many advanced degrees I lost count (phd, mba, masters, etc) and never got close to what I made. my current husband is an engineer and project manager who is nowhere close to what I make.
I get paid full time wages for part time work essentially and have one of the best lifestyles of most people I know including multiple professional acquaintances.
please stop this nonsense of misinformation that EVERYONE outside of medicine is making 500k while sipping bourbon on zoom - people who make 500k plus are the exception, in the 1%

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Peanuts in terms of decreasing taxes.

That just further proves the point. That's 50% of a teacher's yearly salary but to us it doesn't even significantly reduce our tax burden much less our total income.

 

[PikminOC]

That just further proves the point. That's 50% of a teacher's yearly salary but to us it doesn't even significantly reduce our tax burden much less our total income.

Once again you're not seeing it in terms of time.

 

[greatnt249]

Once again you're not seeing it in terms of time.

Go be a teacher then if you think it's the hidden gem of a career you're making it out to be. I'm sure more than a few teachers would like to have a word with you regarding how you think they have it better than you in terms of long-term income potential.

 

[sirspamalot]

Teach? Go join an academic center and help the next generation.

Telling me that good old fashioned teachers get better pay than doctors?

 

[bravotwozero]

As an IC, you can put away up to 66k in a solo 401k. Definitely not peanuts.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Once again you're not seeing it in terms of time.

FFS you're exhausting.

But fine, here we go.

My FM residency was probably around 8000 hours total. Med school was probably 7500 hours or so. So let's round up a bit and say total training time is 16000 hours.

Student loans from my time with the interest rate at the time would end up costing around 280k across the lifetime of the loan.

Based on my last year's take home income (which includes all benefits and retirement/HSA contributions across a standard FP career, we're talking just over 8 million dollars. So we subtract the student loan amount and we'll even round down to 7.5 million.

I'm in the office 36 hours per week for let's say 45 weeks per year. So 1620 hours per year. 35 year career brings that to 56700 hours. Add the 16000 training hours. So a total training/working time of just shy of 73k hours so we'll round up to 73k. That ends up all told being just above $100/h after taxes and benefits and whatnot.

Now let's look at teachers.

In my state they start at 43k and increase pretty linearly to 63k. So we'll take the midway point of 53k and multiple by 30. 1.6 million. But that's gross. State pension is 7% pretax, not sure what medical insurance is so we'll call in 1.2k/year (that's 100/month so that seems fair). So take home pay is 38.5k/year. Across 30 years that's actually around 1.2 million. We'll assume no loan burden to give them a leg up.

Teachers here work from around 730 to 330. Many work extra with grading, lesson plans, and so on. But we'll go with that. 8 hours per day. They work 190 days per year. Across a 30 year career that's 45000 hours.

So teachers in SC are getting across a career are around $26/hour after taxes and benefits.

So literally 1/4th of the hourly rate of physicians even when med school and residency are taken into account.

Are you happy now?

 

[sirspamalot]

 

[Iamnew2]

FFS you're exhausting.

But fine, here we go.

My FM residency was probably around 8000 hours total. Med school was probably 7500 hours or so. So let's round up a bit and say total training time is 16000 hours.

Student loans from my time with the interest rate at the time would end up costing around 280k across the lifetime of the loan.

Based on my last year's take home income (which includes all benefits and retirement/HSA contributions across a standard FP career, we're talking just over 8 million dollars. So we subtract the student loan amount and we'll even round down to 7.5 million.

I'm in the office 36 hours per week for let's say 45 weeks per year. So 1620 hours per year. 35 year career brings that to 56700 hours. Add the 16000 training hours. So a total training/working time of just shy of 73k hours so we'll round up to 73k. That ends up all told being just above $100/h after taxes and benefits and whatnot.

Now let's look at teachers.

In my state they start at 43k and increase pretty linearly to 63k. So we'll take the midway point of 53k and multiple by 30. 1.6 million. But that's gross. State pension is 7% pretax, not sure what medical insurance is so we'll call in 1.2k/year (that's 100/month so that seems fair). So take home pay is 38.5k/year. Across 30 years that's actually around 1.2 million. We'll assume no loan burden to give them a leg up.

Teachers here work from around 730 to 330. Many work extra with grading, lesson plans, and so on. But we'll go with that. 8 hours per day. They work 190 days per year. Across a 30 year career that's 45000 hours.

So teachers in SC are getting across a career are around $26/hour after taxes and benefits.

So literally 1/4th of the hourly rate of physicians even when med school and residency are taken into account.

Are you happy now?

The outlier are some places like chicago where teachers make like 80-100k. But otherwise spot on