Medical School is such a scam

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miacomet said:
Yeah, I mean, I agree- EM is a great field if you want to live in the boonies or a huge, trafficky, Southern/Midwestern city and have a huge house. I would agree that if that's your desired lifestyle, EM is a great gig.

If you like skiing, hiking, backpacking, walkable cities, coasts, oceans...which is what most college-educated people like, it's a terrible deal.
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Dude. It sounds like you really want to be an OR nurse and live in NoCal, skiing and hiking all day.

Don’t let us hold you back or tell you otherwise, follow your dreams!
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miacomet said:
True, although every city I mentioned has plenty of fine restaurants. Different stroke for different folks.

Places that are LCOL are that way because they aren't super desirable in general.
Agreed space is nice, but I have no idea what I would do with 6000 SF- what do you do with all the rooms? Even in a LCOL area, you have to paint it, clean it, heat it, cool it. I would probably downsize in a LCOL area to 2 or 3k SF and retire earlier...
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Houston is the 4th largest city. Chicago is the third largest city. Dallas metro is also huge, not sure where it ranks exactly.

These places aren’t cheap because people don’t want to live there. People obviously do, that’s why these are the largest cities in the US. The difference is that they are very flat and have continued to grow outside the city boundaries and there is plenty of land available to continue building. The physical terrain is essentially amenable to keep extending outside.

The argument that no one wants to live there is weird. I mean…denver is tiny compared to Houston, Dallas and Chicago. In fact, look at immigration data, California cities have high immigration out into places like Houston and Dallas which are amongst the fastest growing large cities. Follow the money - google how many fortune 500 companies moved to Texas in the last 3-5 years.

So is California really that great when a lot of people are moving out of it to places like boise, austin, Dallas, Atlanta?

And 6000 sqft is nice to have. We often have large gatherings with 15-20 guests at our home - maybe once every other month. The kids get their own play area, the adults have their own area. We often have movie nights in our home with friends in our home theater and we often host game night for several families. Our finished basement is set for entertainment - movie theater, air hockey, basketball hoops, ping pong table, VR gaming set up. Also whenever our family visits, they would stay here. My childhood friend whose fellowship is 3 hours away comes by every 1-2 months and he spends weekends here. Whenever my parents visit, they stay here for months. When my wife’s parents will be here from pakistan, they will stay here, throw in her 2 sisters, then that’s more people. If my sister visits, she will stay here with her 2 kids. We have 6 bedrooms, right now we can fit everyone in our home, once we have 3 kids and all these people visiting, honestly we will start running out of rooms then as well 😂

We’re not outdoors people. I hate hiking, i hate being in the heat. i love central air conditioning. Our entertainment is socializing with friends, we have at least 4-5 monthly events with people. Like today was a movie night with 3 families to watch this new Indian movie that just came out. Day before yesterday my wife hosted her entire clinic for dinner at our home, that was a dozen people. That’s our entertainment.

The last time i tried to ski, i thought i was going to break something even on the bunny slopes. Fyi we have skiing where i live an hour or so away, but it’s just not something I’m dying to do.

Things i cared about when moving last year - job opportunities, low cost of living, excellent school district, major city 1M+ population, things to do, excellent malpractice environment, low volume rural ER within 1 hour of this excellent school district in a large city. So yeah…different strokes for different folks.
 
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cyanide12345678 said:
Houston is the 4th largest city. Chicago is the third largest city. Dallas metro is also huge, not sure where it ranks exactly.

These places aren’t cheap because people don’t want to live there. People obviously do, that’s why these are the largest cities in the US. The difference is that they are very flat and have continued to grow outside the city boundaries and there is plenty of land available to continue building. The physical terrain is essentially amenable to keep extending outside.

The argument that no one wants to live there is weird. I mean…denver is tiny compared to Houston, Dallas and Chicago. In fact, look at immigration data, California cities have high immigration out into places like Houston and Dallas which are amongst the fastest growing large cities. Follow the money - google how many fortune 500 companies moved to Texas in the last 3-5 years.

So is California really that great when a lot of people are moving out of it to places like boise, austin, Dallas, Atlanta?

And 6000 sqft is nice to have. We often have large gatherings with 15-20 guests at our home - maybe once every other month. The kids get their own play area, the adults have their own area. We often have movie nights in our home with friends in our home theater and we often host game night for several families. Our finished basement is set for entertainment - movie theater, air hockey, basketball hoops, ping pong table, VR gaming set up. Also whenever our family visits, they would stay here. My childhood friend whose fellowship is 3 hours away comes by every 1-2 months and he spends weekends here. Whenever my parents visit, they stay here for months. When my wife’s parents will be here from pakistan, they will stay here, throw in her 2 sisters, then that’s more people. If my sister visits, she will stay here with her 2 kids. We have 6 bedrooms, right now we can fit everyone in our home, once we have 3 kids and all these people visiting, honestly we will start running out of rooms then as well 😂

We’re not outdoors people. I hate hiking, i hate being in the heat. i love central air conditioning. Our entertainment is socializing with friends, we have at least 4-5 monthly events with people. Like today was a movie night with 3 families to watch this new Indian movie that just came out. Day before yesterday my wife hosted her entire clinic for dinner at our home, that was a dozen people. That’s our entertainment.

The last time i tried to ski, i thought i was going to break something even on the bunny slopes. Fyi we have skiing where i live an hour or so away, but it’s just not something I’m dying to do.

Things i cared about when moving last year - job opportunities, low cost of living, excellent school district, major city 1M+ population, things to do, excellent malpractice environment, low volume rural ER within 1 hour of this excellent school district in a large city. So yeah…different strokes for different folks.
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I admit it sounds lovely- very fun and social, as long as you are happy socializing indoors as your main (only?) activity, which it sounds like you are
 
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High pay in VLCOL areas also means you can vacation to any HCOL area you want.
 
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miacomet said:
I admit it sounds lovely- very fun and social, as long as you are happy socializing indoors as your main (only?) activity, which it sounds like you are
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Plenty of outdoor things to do from late March through early October.

My suburban city and the neighboring suburban city 20 minutes away together have been ranked as the best city in the US 6-7 times by multiple different magazines.

Plenty of outdoor concerts, parks, there’s a national state park like 15 minutes away, there’s a huge reservoir which has a ‘beach’ On it. Plenty of massive public splash pads for kids. It’s a metro with 2M population, there are plenty of things. Plus I’m up to 4ish hours away from 6-7 other very large metros. Makes for some good spontaneous weekend trips.

I’ve never lived in California, but I’ve lived in lahore, Houston, Dallas, London - essentially some of the world’s largest cities, i prefer where i am now to those places as a married man with a child and plans for more kids in the future. If i was single, no kids, then probably not.
 
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cyanide12345678 said:
Plenty of outdoor things to do from late March through early October.

My suburban city and the neighboring suburban city 20 minutes away together have been ranked as the best city in the US 6-7 times by multiple different magazines.

Plenty of outdoor concerts, parks, there’s a national state park like 15 minutes away, there’s a huge reservoir which has a ‘beach’ On it. Plenty of massive public splash pads for kids. It’s a metro with 2M population, there are plenty of things. Plus I’m up to 4ish hours away from 6-7 other very large metros. Makes for some good spontaneous weekend trips.

I’ve never lived in California, but I’ve lived in lahore, Houston, Dallas, London - essentially some of the world’s largest cities, i prefer where i am now to those places as a married man with a child and plans for more kids in the future. If i was single, no kids, then probably not.
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Oye Lahore Lahore aye!
 
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DarkHorizon said:
Karachi would like to have a word
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image.jpg


My freezer will not disagree.
 
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NYEMMED said:
You have a doctorate…

When’s the last time a teacher worked evenings, nights, weekends, holidays. Or a shift more than 6-7 hours…

And they have over 12 weeks of vacation/sick time

It’s all give/take
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Well that's a really inaccurate description of teachers. Your post if full of misconceptions.

- Teachers don't just leave when the bell rings. Virtually all teachers work a fair amount after school, and large amount work some from home in the evenings.

Don't forget that many high school and middle school teachers are also giving up a lot of evenings to sponsor clubs, sprouts, and other extracurricular activities.

- 12 weeks of vacation/sick time? Not in this country. More like 10 days of paid sick days. Teachers who take summer break off don't get paid for that time. It's more like being furloughed for 2.5 months every year as opposed to a paid vacation.

- Your post is every bit as bad as all the people who think they understand what EM physicians do but actually have no clue. A lot of people think doctors have it made and make way too much money simply because they don't understand our education or jobs. I think that may be what's happening here with your statements about teachers.

- I used to be a public school teacher. I worked more hours as a teacher than I do as a physician. My wife tells me all the time how glad she is that I have so much more time with the family now than I did when teaching. This comparison is skewed by the fact I used to coach sports for the high school, but so did a lot of my teacher coworkers. Even without counting the extracurricular work, teachers work way more than you think.

You make it sound like teachers barely work.

If you have kids, I hope you appreciate their teachers'work and time more than it seems.
 
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Boatswain2PA said:
High pay in VLCOL areas also means you can vacation to any HCOL area you want.
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This.

I know people who pay $5500 / mo rent in a VHCOL city. Their amenities are "in unit washer / dryer" lol. After this and city income tax, how do you have money left to spend and save?

I live one hour away, pay 2k less / mo, get a pool and a gym. I can travel into the city whenever I want, eat at whatever restaurant I want, and sit front row to whatever sporting event I want. How is a 2k premium on rent (and substantial pay cut) worth the ability to walk down the street to a coffee shop, or to a museum for an afternoon?

I understand paying the premium / taking the paycut for activities like skiing, mountain biking, etc. If your goal is to get 100 days of skiing in the season, then by all means, take the cut to live in Frisco or whatever.
 
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Seems like nurses are pricing themselves out of healthcare. Every ED I know of is finding ways to deliver care sans RNs. Things can quickly turn for RNs where only critical care patients require RNs.
Think of an appy workup. Lab tech draws labs. LVN or CT tech places IV and patient gets scanned. Appy positive. Now finally an RN enters the scene, or maybe not - maybe a pharmacist mixes the antibiotics and the LVN hangs it.
It’s been that way in some ERs for many years for others now “this is the way”. Where does an RN play a role in the ED of the future? Maybe triage, or maybe not if a PA is doing provider-in-triage.
Great the salaries are going gangbusters for RNs now but let’s call a bubble a bubble and recognize that this too shall pop.
 
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RuralEDDoc said:
Seems like nurses are pricing themselves out of healthcare. Every ED I know of is finding ways to deliver care sans RNs. Things can quickly turn for RNs where only critical care patients require RNs.
Think of an appy workup. Lab tech draws labs. LVN or CT tech places IV and patient gets scanned. Appy positive. Now finally an RN enters the scene, or maybe not - maybe a pharmacist mixes the antibiotics and the LVN hangs it.
It’s been that way in some ERs for many years for others now “this is the way”. Where does an RN play a role in the ED of the future? Maybe triage, or maybe not if a PA is doing provider-in-triage.
Great the salaries are going gangbusters for RNs now but let’s call a bubble a bubble and recognize that this too shall pop.
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Wow, not where I have worked, seems like everywhere is short of nurses and wants more nurses
 
KGflyboy said:
Well that's a really inaccurate description of teachers. Your post if full of misconceptions.

- Teachers don't just leave when the bell rings. Virtually all teachers work a fair amount after school, and large amount work some from home in the evenings.

Don't forget that many high school and middle school teachers are also giving up a lot of evenings to sponsor clubs, sprouts, and other extracurricular activities.

- 12 weeks of vacation/sick time? Not in this country. More like 10 days of paid sick days. Teachers who take summer break off don't get paid for that time. It's more like being furloughed for 2.5 months every year than a paid vacation.

- Your post is every bit as bad as all the people who think they understand what EM physicians do but actually have no clue.

- I used to be a public school teacher. I worked more hours as a teacher than I do as a physician. My wife tells me all the time how glad she is that I have so much more time with the family now than I did when teaching. This comparison is skewed by the fact I used to coach sports for the high school, but so did a lot of me teacher coworkers. Even without counting the extracurricular work, teachers work way more than you think.

You make it sound like teachers barely work.

If you have kids, I hope you appreciate their teachers'work and time more than it seems.
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The current lack of appreciation for public school teachers is a pox on our country.
 
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miacomet said:
Wow, not where I have worked, seems like everywhere is short of nurses and wants more nurses
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Yes I see the same thing currently - we all need more nurses now. Many health systems will adjust to life with less of them and adapt workflows so that LVNs and Techs are doing what RNs used to do. Over time the 30% shortage of nurses looks much smaller when 40% of their work has been reassigned. Not saying this is good or bad, just what I think will happen.
 
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Boatswain2PA said:
High pay in VLCOL areas also means you can vacation to any HCOL area you want.
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This.

Houston is baking in the middle of July, which is exactly why we take off to Colorado every year right around that time. Short, cheap flight to Denver from Houston.

Even if one lived in Denver, not like the mountains are there. Have to drive at least 45 minutes to an hour west before you get into the Rockies….
 
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RuralEDDoc said:
Yes I see the same thing currently - we all need more nurses now. Many health systems will adjust to life with less of them and adapt workflows so that LVNs and Techs are doing what RNs used to do. Over time the 30% shortage of nurses looks much smaller when 40% of their work has been reassigned. Not saying this is good or bad, just what I think will happen.
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Sooner or later hospitals will figure out a way to hire foreign nurses and the bubble will pop.
 
KGflyboy said:
Well that's a really inaccurate description of teachers. Your post if full of misconceptions.

- Teachers don't just leave when the bell rings. Virtually all teachers work a fair amount after school, and large amount work some from home in the evenings.

Don't forget that many high school and middle school teachers are also giving up a lot of evenings to sponsor clubs, sprouts, and other extracurricular activities.

- 12 weeks of vacation/sick time? Not in this country. More like 10 days of paid sick days. Teachers who take summer break off don't get paid for that time. It's more like being furloughed for 2.5 months every year than a paid vacation.

- Your post is every bit as bad as all the people who think they understand what EM physicians do but actually have no clue.

- I used to be a public school teacher. I worked more hours as a teacher than I do as a physician. My wife tells me all the time how glad she is that I have so much more time with the family now than I did when teaching. This comparison is skewed by the fact I used to coach sports for the high school, but so did a lot of me teacher coworkers. Even without counting the extracurricular work, teachers work way more than you think.

You make it sound like teachers barely work.

If you have kids, I hope you appreciate their teachers'work and time more than it seems.
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Not only that the pay is 50-60k you also have to do meetings for parents and sometimes supply school supplies for your students.

EM pays well and it is far more family friendly than many jobs. You can choose to be a noctornist or just work 6 shifts a month and makes 200k
 
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RuralEDDoc said:
Yes I see the same thing currently - we all need more nurses now. Many health systems will adjust to life with less of them and adapt workflows so that LVNs and Techs are doing what RNs used to do. Over time the 30% shortage of nurses looks much smaller when 40% of their work has been reassigned. Not saying this is good or bad, just what I think will happen.
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Meh, unless they are gonna start paying LPNs and techs more this is no solution. Who wants to work in healthcare when they can work for more at Target with better hours and less stress?
 
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RuralEDDoc said:
Yes I see the same thing currently - we all need more nurses now. Many health systems will adjust to life with less of them and adapt workflows so that LVNs and Techs are doing what RNs used to do. Over time the 30% shortage of nurses looks much smaller when 40% of their work has been reassigned. Not saying this is good or bad, just what I think will happen.
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I think 10 years ago or so I listened to a recording of Greg Henry giving a lecture on ED flow (which itself was probably 10-15 years old) and he said something along the lines of 'give me twice as many techs and half as many nurses and I'll make the ER flow twice as smooth'.
 
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I don't think medical school is a scam. There are very few other professional degrees where you can guarantee a 6-figure salary in almost any economic environment. Granted some of the for-profit schools are scam-adjacent with their exorbitant tuitions and shady clinical affiliations.
 
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What would really, really, really help (and it's not an unreasonable ask), is health insurance coverage. If I got insurance as a benefit, that would put 2k a month right back into my pocket.
 
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H-town gets a well deserved bad rap for the heat/humidity and car-only transportation (unless you live RIGHT in the medical center and work there too... and you need groceries to eat right?).

On the other hand, if you're so worried about pay and location.. free thyself. As an ER doc, you can geographically arbitrage yourself and work ANYWHERE. That means more remote locations that will hand you bags of cash to show up. The catch?

You need to learn to fly and manage your own small aircraft. Once you do.. the world is your oyster. Learn the ways of the #.
 
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bravotwozero said:
This.

Houston is baking in the middle of July, which is exactly why we take off to Colorado every year right around that time. Short, cheap flight to Denver from Houston.

Even if one lived in Denver, not like the mountains are there. Have to drive at least 45 minutes to an hour west before you get into the Rockies….
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Denver is also a scam for this reason unless you like legal weed and, well, Denver.

I had a patient who moved to my state from Houston because she wanted somewhere her kids could play outside and do sports all year round- she felt that Houston just made this impossible. Had a colleague who moved from Vegas for the same reason.
 
RustedFox said:
What would really, really, really help (and it's not an unreasonable ask), is health insurance coverage. If I got insurance as a benefit, that would put 2k a month right back into my pocket.
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Omg.. universal healthcare!
 
sirspamalot said:
H-town gets a well deserved bad rap for the heat/humidity and car-only transportation (unless you live RIGHT in the medical center and work there too... and you need groceries to eat right?).

On the other hand, if you're so worried about pay and location.. free thyself. As an ER doc, you can geographically arbitrage yourself and work ANYWHERE. That means more remote locations that will hand you bags of cash to show up. The catch?

You need to learn to fly and manage your own small aircraft. Once you do.. the world is your oyster. Learn the ways of the #.
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I wish someone would hand me bags of cash. The highest rate anyone has offered me (without negotiating) is $285/hr with a $20 night differential for locums. Not impressed.
 
sirspamalot said:
Agree. # it to 400.
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Locums companies are seemingly having a hard time adjusting to the current market, which is fair because it's probably temporary. But right now they need me more than I need them, which they cannot process. Well, more ski days for me, I guess.

Re: nurses and techs, the issue with techs is you have two kinds- the lifer who does less and less every year, and the really skilled, enthusiastic techs who leave for RN/PA/medschool after 2-3 years.
 
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miacomet said:
I wish someone would hand me bags of cash. The highest rate anyone has offered me (without negotiating) is $285/hr with a $20 night differential for locums. Not impressed.
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Just to keep some things in perspective, that IS 14-15 TIMES the national hourly pay per hour.

The vast majority of Americans would, indeed, consider that "handing me bags of cash".
 
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Boatswain2PA said:
Just to keep some things in perspective, that IS 14-15 TIMES the national hourly pay per hour.

The vast majority of Americans would, indeed, consider that "handing me bags of cash".
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Let's not do the thing again where we compare a EPs hourly rate to someone with 1/20th our education, training and expertise.
 
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Boatswain2PA said:
Just to keep some things in perspective, that IS 14-15 TIMES the national hourly pay per hour.

The vast majority of Americans would, indeed, consider that "handing me bags of cash".
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The global population would gladly earn our minimum wage as well. Business executives and CEOs who run his fortune, 500 companies would never say stuff like this we deal with peoples lives. We actually deal with the liability and we also have private equity taking money off our backs. We also deal directly with people, so we have to deal with customer service.

Telling someone’s loved one that they died, or dealing with psychotic and homicidal people, or dealing with acute rape
 
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GonnaBeADoc2222 said:
"Med school is a scam" lol

I make over 300k and work less days than a teacher with a master's degree.

I take pride in the knowledge that I am an expert in emergency medicine. The noctors can let their inferiority complex shine. I laugh at them while i sit in first class to Europe.

If you don't want pediatrician money, don't choose pediatrics.
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Teachers start working much earlier than us. They put money in retirement etc earlier. There's a diagram that they end up making much more than physicians with much less work and responsibilities
 
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Heist said:
Teachers start working much earlier than us. They put money in retirement etc earlier. There's a diagram that they end up making much more than physicians with much less work and responsibilities
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Lol sure
 
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NYEMMED said:
www.bestmedicaldegrees.com

The Deceptive Salary of Doctors - BestMedicalDegrees.com

Share this infographic on your site! Source: BestMedicalDegrees.com The Deceptive Salary of Doctors Most people believe that high school teachers don't make enough money, and few believe that doctors should make more. Believe it or not, doctors make 3 cents less per hour than high school...
www.bestmedicaldegrees.com www.bestmedicaldegrees.com
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Just a little misleading.

1) Assumption of 100k undergraduate debt

2) Assumption of 20 yrs to clear student debt (lulz)

3) Assumption of 200k salary. I know pediatricians who make more than this.
 
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How many doctors are making $202k which is the average number for salary they’ve used?
 
GonnaBeADoc2222 said:
Just a little misleading.

1) Assumption of 100k undergraduate debt

2) Assumption of 20 yrs to clear student debt (lulz)

3) Assumption of 200k salary. I know pediatricians who make more than this.
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My family med wife makes 230k -_-she works 36 hours a week and not the 59.6 average hours that they’ve assumed.

Extremely terrible math and assumptions but hey it will help public opinion about doctors so i don’t care lol
 
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cyanide12345678 said:
My family med wife makes 230k -_-she works 36 hours a week and not the 59.6 average hours that they’ve assumed.

Extremely terrible math and assumptions but hey it will help public opinion about doctors so i don’t care lol
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Crunch it with new numbers then. And show us the results. The loans are higher now and time spent on moc etc too. Factor all that in. As well as pajama time trying to get notes in emr.
 
MOC? My job pays for that.

Notes? 100% of mine are done AT WORK and ON THE CLOCK where they belong.
 
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cyanide12345678 said:
My family med wife makes 230k -_-she works 36 hours a week and not the 59.6 average hours that they’ve assumed.

Extremely terrible math and assumptions but hey it will help public opinion about doctors so i don’t care lol
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I make just shy of twice that working the same hours also as an FP.

Med school is still a great deal for most.
 
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Heist said:
It depends. Lots of factors people don't think about
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I know plenty of teachers. I wouldn't trade places with any of them and I'm in one of the lowest paid specialties out there.

My mother was a teacher, her last year of working was my intern year. 30 years of teaching and the highest pay grade short of a PhD, and she made 2k more per year than I did as an intern.
 
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cyanide12345678 said:
My family med wife makes 230k -_-she works 36 hours a week and not the 59.6 average hours that they’ve assumed.
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
I make just shy of twice that working the same hours also as an FP.
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That’s a problem with EM. If you find the right outpatient primary care setup you can make almost as much as EM without the nights, weekends and holidays. Not sure if the extra compensation is worth the trade off.
 
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